Punch Out!!! - Revisions and some upgrades

[Kellex]

In regards to speed: I didn't see it questioned there, but why are you using 60 FPS? I doubt Punch-Out was 60 FPS, our baseline assumption is 25 FPS, and no reason was really given for that value.

The Wii version is 60fps and NES is seemingly the same also even tho it may not look like it.
Here's a more higher res video and try to compare any of the 60fps options with 480p or lower. You'll see that 30fps will look off putting and be missing frames.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, Super Macho Man is one of the last opponents in the game, but the rationale is that there's no indication that Little Mac gets so much stronger as to not warrant downscaling. I get if that's weak.

However, for Great Tiger, he's a relatively early opponent AND I'm pretty sure there's no indication Little Mac gets faster through training, at least not in the same way as strength.

I was under the impression the difference is pretty big? The OP points out Glass Joe losing hundreds of times, compared to the upper echelons of the scaling chain.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I was under the impression the difference is pretty big? The OP points out Glass Joe losing hundreds of times, compared to the upper echelons of the scaling chain.

That's a good point, although that could be for a lot of reasons. Other boxers in the same circuit have better records, yet all of them can go down in not dissimilar numbers of hits.

I'll admit the downscaling might be a stretch especially for the minor circuit.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

In regards to speed: I didn't see it questioned there, but why are you using 60 FPS? I doubt Punch-Out was 60 FPS, our baseline assumption is 25 FPS, and no reason was really given for that value.

I suppose this has been dealt by rex_eckles already, so i'll skip this

In regards to abilities: Glass Joe's thing isn't Supernatural Willpower.

ok

The bear guy should just have Limited Animal Manip and not Social Influencing, Social Influencing is not necessary if we give him the supernatural ability to communicate with the bear (which he seems to have).

ok

Agree that Great Tiger's thing is pretty weak evidence and would be in favor of removing 4th Wall Awareness.

ok

Feel similarly with Don Flamenco's, he's looking into the perspective, yes, but nothing implies he is literally speaking to the player. He's just monologuing.

Don says:

"Don't be fooled! I'm much harder in the game!"

Likely, talking to the reader, referring to the fact that he's aware of being a character in a game

A lot of the scaling has no explanation so I feel a bit underequipped to approve or disapprove of it.

Ok so, anything specific?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

.

come on man....

 

[Mr. Bambu]

come on man....

buddy, I am diseased and hobbling about my home like a cripple

you didn't give me any explanations on scaling, I can't request anything specific since I'm unfamiliar; working with what Rex told me before, I disagree with the OP for now.

Neutral on Don's 4th Wall Awareness.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

buddy, I am diseased and hobbling about my home like a cripple

Mb mr.bambu, i forgot that you were sick, i apprishiate that you are still going out of your way to be here.

you didn't give me any explanations on scaling, I can't request anything specific since I'm unfamiliar; working with what Rex told me before, I disagree with the OP for now.

We start by the NESS scaling at the moment, we do take this game as a different continuity as the Wii one (as we do not have any proof that Ness and Wii are the same timeline, exept for this commercial), we scale everyone to everyone because there isn't much proof that Mac became so much stronger between circuits, after losing Mac can go back to the bottom of his circuit where he will have to fight previus opponents(or retire witch will make Mac go back to the first fight in game) and there are some codes that allow you to go back and do previus fights while mantaining his current score.

Wii scaling: contender mode , this is the classic campain of the wii game, everyone scales to everyone as Mac can still go back and fight previus fighters.

Wii scaling: title defense , this is after contender mode and everyone at this point underwent some kind of training or got other ghear that made them stronger, everyone scales to everyone as Mac can still go back and fight previus fighters.

Wii scaling: last stand , this key only applies for 2 characters (Donkey Kong and Little Mac), other characters instead get a split key "title defense/last stand", Mac fights all of his opponents and if he gets knocked down 3 times he retires, Mac and Kong pretty much gets an "At least" for both speed and ap as he can now deal better with all of his previus opponents.

 

[Slav]

i gotta ask. about the great tiger scaling, are we assuming he created the afterimages with raw speed? because while it is possible to me it seems he is using magic more than super speed. even in the comic he is said to use his powers ''to appear in two places at once''. i do agree to the calculations but i do not think that anyone would scale to his spinning magic.

in the nes version he always stops for a second in front of mac and throws a punch. so mark naturally has time to react when tiger stops using his magic to spin.

in the wii version the punches that come mac's way are clearly not as fast as the movement he does with his magic to leave afterimages

personally id say these feats should only scale to tigers travel/movement speed and itd have to be noted thats while hes using magic

edit: macs punching speed is clearly depicted as inferior to tigers magic spin since tiger vanishes before mac can seemingly even react to it. which does go back to the point on how he stops using his magic spin when hes about to punch mark, which is the only real reason mac can hit him.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

i gotta ask. about the great tiger scaling, are we assuming he created the afterimages with raw speed? because while it is possible to me it seems he is using magic more than super speed. even in the comic he is said to use his powers ''to appear in two places at once''. i do agree to the calculations but i do not think that anyone would scale to his spinning magic.

in the nes version he always stops for a second in front of mac and throws a punch. so mark naturally has time to react when tiger stops using his magic to spin.

in the wii version the punches that come mac's way are clearly not as fast as the movement he does with his magic to leave afterimages

personally id say these feats should only scale to tigers travel/movement speed and itd have to be noted thats while hes using magic

edit: macs punching speed is clearly depicted as inferior to tigers magic spin since tiger vanishes before mac can seemingly even react to it. which does go back to the point on how he stops using his magic spin when hes about to punch mark, which is the only real reason mac can hit him.

I think it can be boiled down as gameplay as why would he willingly slow down do Mac speed? to make it easier for mac to hit him?

I also want to point out that he does alternate between super speed and teleporting, as great tiger does teleport between a punch from mac and his punch to confuse the adversary.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

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[LandonTheGuy]

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[Rex_Eckles]

Are we still going with Great Tiger’s speed or no? Slav made a good case for A) Mac no scaling to it and B) being teleportation, and therefore KE will be unusable.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Are we still going with Great Tiger’s speed or no? Slav made a good case for A) Mac no scaling to it and B) being teleportation, and therefore KE will be unusable.

NESS

No it's still usable, i doubt that great tiger literally teleports that if he doesn't have any benefict on it (as he stays still during the attack, and wouldn't be able to perform a stronger attack if he just stays still).

Also Great Tiger does that attack we can see both the difference between him teleporting (as he just teleports there) and using his magic punch (actually performs moviment in this case instead).

WII
This applies here too (to a more clear extent) as this is teleportation while this is speed, we do also see other fighters leave similar afterimages effects during their attacks.

so yeah, it is usable

 

[Rex_Eckles]

NESS

No it's still usable, i doubt that great tiger literally teleports that if he doesn't have any benefict on it (as he stays still during the attack, and wouldn't be able to perform a stronger attack if he just stays still).

Also Great Tiger does that attack we can see both the difference between him teleporting (as he just teleports there) and using his magic punch (actually performs moviment in this case instead).

WII
This applies here too (to a more clear extent) as this is teleportation while this is speed, we do also see other fighters leave similar afterimages effects during their attacks.

so yeah, it is usable

Alrighty then!

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

buddy, I am diseased and hobbling about my home like a cripple

bump, also you good now?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

bump, also you good now?

being sick left me with some sort of chronic conditions that I'm looking into getting a proper doctor's appointment for, but my eyes are no longer exuding discharge and my body is no longer totally self destructing, at least, though I have no recollection of what we were doing here. I suppose I can try to read through again.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

being sick left me with some sort of chronic conditions that I'm looking into getting a proper doctor's appointment for, but my eyes are no longer exuding discharge and my body is no longer totally self destructing,

man i feel u, one time i had dyarrea (idk how to write that in inglish) so strong i started defecating blood.

at least, though I have no recollection of what we were doing here. I suppose I can try to read through again.

Yes you were about to evaluate this thread without doing a single question.

No seriusly, you wanted to check the scaling:

Mb mr.bambu, i forgot that you were sick, i apprishiate that you are still going out of your way to be here.


We start by the NESS scaling at the moment, we do take this game as a different continuity as the Wii one (as we do not have any proof that Ness and Wii are the same timeline, exept for this commercial), we scale everyone to everyone because there isn't much proof that Mac became so much stronger between circuits, after losing Mac can go back to the bottom of his circuit where he will have to fight previus opponents(or retire witch will make Mac go back to the first fight in game) and there are some codes that allow you to go back and do previus fights while mantaining his current score.

Wii scaling: contender mode , this is the classic campain of the wii game, everyone scales to everyone as Mac can still go back and fight previus fighters.

Wii scaling: title defense , this is after contender mode and everyone at this point underwent some kind of training or got other ghear that made them stronger, everyone scales to everyone as Mac can still go back and fight previus fighters.

Wii scaling: last stand , this key only applies for 2 characters (Donkey Kong and Little Mac), other characters instead get a split key "title defense/last stand", Mac fights all of his opponents and if he gets knocked down 3 times he retires, Mac and Kong pretty much gets an "At least" for both speed and ap as he can now deal better with all of his previus opponents.

this one

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[Slav]

WII
This applies here too (to a more clear extent) as this is teleportation while this is speed, we do also see other fighters leave similar afterimages effects during their attacks.

so yeah, it is usable

I agree he isn't using teleportation while leaving afterimages, however the afterimage magic does not scale to combat speed as the punches he throws at Mac are separate from the afterimages ( they are on screen at the same time and they behave differently ). And evidently the afterimage magic is much faster, as by the time the actual Great Tiger travels a short distance to hit Mac the afterimage has moved many times greater distance ( since again they are literally on the screen at the same time and we can see how they compare. ). The Honda feat does seem usable, though. I think a calc for Honda's punches would be great.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I agree he isn't using teleportation while leaving afterimages, however the afterimage magic does not scale to combat speed as the punches he throws at Mac are separate from the afterimages ( they are on screen at the same time and they behave differently ). And evidently the afterimage magic is much faster, as by the time the actual Great Tiger travels a short distance to hit Mac the afterimage has moved many times greater distance ( since again they are literally on the screen at the same time and we can see how they compare. ). The Honda feat does seem usable, though. I think a calc for Honda's punches would be great.

Then again why would he slow down? he still uses magic in his attacks, and he would be stupid out of him not using the same speed with the clones.

As i said before your comparison is based on gameplay mechanics, which allows us to see Great Tiger because we must see it ourselfs to react to him, why would a guy just say "Mh, i can fly so fast that the eye can barely catch up, now let me just use 1/4 of my speed so i can get punched in the face", it doesn't work.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Information Analysis (he does get the fighting style/abilities of his opponents rather easly)

Disagree, this is just not what the ability is.

Superhuman Willpower (altho this one has lost 100+ matches, he still choses to fight mac both in title defense mode and in last stand more than once)

This is not superhuman, just stubborn.

Acrobatics (can do jump between platforms at what seems great speed)

Not seeing any acrobatics.

As for Preparation, it depends on whether they train in general or just to counter their opponent. The other abilities are fine, no comment on scaling since I don't know the verse.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Disagree, this is just not what the ability is.

ok

This is not superhuman, just stubborn.

ok

Not seeing any acrobatics.

Between first and third box at the start of the comic

As for Preparation, it depends on whether they train in general or just to counter their opponent.

They do prepare in specific ways against little mac, like by making weapons, taking head ghear

The other abilities are fine, no comment on scaling since I don't know the verse.

Want a short introduction? most ppl scale to each other and they only get 2 (mac 3) keys

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Between first and third box at the start of the comic

They do prepare in specific ways against little mac, like by making weapons, taking head ghear

These are fine then.

Want a short introduction? most ppl scale to each other and they only get 2 (mac 3) keys

I mean, I wouldn't be able to verify it even if you explained it to me.