Queen scaling above Apoo

[Eseseso]

So in chapter 994, Queen says to Apoo after giving him the cure for the Ice Oni virus that he'll kill him if he loses the vial, and this is supported by Apoo saying that if Chopper doesn't give the vial that he'll die.


This combined with the fact that Apoo didn't try to fight Base Queen (which he would have done if Base Queen were on his level of power) shows that Base Queen is easily above Apoo, and should scale above Apoo's Oto Oto no Mi (which is 1.032 petatons due to both knocking out Base Post Udon Luffy and drawing blood from Zoro and Kid, and all of those 3 have 1.032 petaton durability).

This would scale to Queen, King w/o a Sword, and Onigashima Raid Sanji. MP Chopper wouldn't scale because he only drew a small bit of blood from Queen and otherwise was easily defeated by Zoan Queen so he'll remain at 760 teratons.

It also makes Queen damaging Big Mom a decent supporting feat (yes I know Queen damaging Big Mom by itself isn't a 1 petaton feat but that's why it is a good supporting feat).

Thoughts?

Edit: As @Kachon123 pointed out below, Queen is stated to be the 2nd strongest Beast Pirate (which should include Apoo), and since King is stated to be 2nd behind only Kaido in terms of the strongest beast pirates, this further supports them both scaling above Apoo.

 

[Eminiteable]

I disagree, Drake and Killer both found two separate weaknesses to his powers so chances are Queen knew them as well. At that point in the story Queen also has full access to his viruses which he can launch at Apoo.

Nothing fully suggests that Queens ability to kill Apoo comes directly from Base Queen's physical strength being superior to Apoo's devil fruit AP.

He also shouldn't scale there in general. Kid, Luffy and Zoro's durability scale to the Yonko which Base Queen blatantly isn't considering in Zoan he was two shot by a hungry tired Linlin.

 

[Kachon123]

Apoo saying that if Chopper doesn't give the vial that he'll die.

Link is wrong.

I agree with the OP. Queen says he'll kill Apoo and Apoo is certain that he would die if her were to fight Queen. Also makes sense considering Queen is the second strongest beast Pirate, so I really have no clue as to why he didn't scale above Apoo to begin with.

 

[Eseseso]

I disagree, Drake and Killer both found two separate weaknesses to his powers so chances are Queen knew them as well. At that point in the story Queen also has full access to his viruses which he can launch at Apoo.

Nothing fully suggests that Queens ability to kill Apoo comes directly from Base Queen's physical strength being superior to Apoo's devil fruit AP.

He also shouldn't scale there in general. Kid, Luffy and Zoro's durability scale to the Yonko which Base Queen blatantly isn't considering in Zoan he was two shot by a hungry tired Linlin.

It was pretty clear that Apoo feared Queen's power since he said that if Chopper didn't get him the vial back he was royally screwed.

If he was comparable to Queen he would've tried attacking him with a DF attack.

Honestly, I've always thought Apoo directly scaling to Yonko level (which the only other non-Yonko in Wano to do so was King) is kind of silly, so I wouldn't mind an alternative of just downgrading Apoo's DF to just 760 teratons.

 

[Eseseso]

Link is wrong.

My bad. Fixed

I agree with the OP. Queen says he'll kill Apoo and Apoo is certain that he would die if her were to fight Queen. Also makes sense considering Queen is the second strongest beast Pirate, so I really have no clue as to why he didn't scale above Apoo to begin with.

Ooo, this is actually a good point!

 

[Eminiteable]

It was pretty clear that Apoo feared Queen's power since he said that if Chopper didn't get him the vial back he was royally screwed.

If he was comparable to Queen he would've tried attacking him with a DF attack.

He wasn't ready to break ties with Queen as it would also make him an enemy of the beast pirates.

His fear of Queen killing him doesn't mean Queens AP is above Apoo's Devil Fruit Ap, there's nothing suggesting that.

Honestly, I've always thought Apoo directly scaling to Yonko level (which the only other non-Yonko in Wano to do so was King) is kind of silly, so I wouldn't mind an alternative of just downgrading Apoo's DF to just 760 teratons.

This downgrade seems to be based off just "well it doesn't sit right with me based on how it feels" that's not a legitimate argument.

Cutting Zoro and Kid could be argued as reasonable downscaling since despite the blood shown it wasn't a serious wound to either, but Luffy was straight up knocked out by an explosion. And Luffy's durability scales to 1.032 PT

 

[Eseseso]

He wasn't ready to break ties with Queen as it would also make him an enemy of the beast pirates.

His fear of Queen killing him doesn't mean Queens AP is above Apoo's Devil Fruit Ap, there's nothing suggesting that.

If he thought that his DF attacks could let him fight back against and/or defeat Queen, why didn't he use them?

This downgrade seems to be based off just "well it doesn't sit right with me based on how it feels" that's not a legitimate argument.

Cutting Zoro and Kid could be argued as reasonable downscaling since despite the blood shown it wasn't a serious wound to either, but Luffy was straight up knocked out by an explosion. And Luffy's durability scales to 1.032 PT

Knocking someone out isn't enough to scale to them directly. Queen knocked out Big Mom yet he doesn't scale.

Does it make sense to you that Apoo's DF > Big Mom's Prometheus attack?

And if he was 1 petaton then why wasn't he a Yonko commander.

 

[Eminiteable]

If he thought that his DF attacks could let him fight back against and/or defeat Queen, why didn't he use them?

It wouldn't be enough to defeat him, one attack from Apoo's devil fruit wouldn't defeat Queen.

If he attacked Queen he'd immediately be an enemy of the beast pirates and Kaidou, he flipped flop his loyalty all throughout the arc on who he thought was the winning side.

Knocking someone out isn't enough to scale to them directly.

Does it make sense to you that Apoo's DF > Big Mom's Prometheus attack?

It absolutely is.

Apoo's explosion knocked Luffy out cold and did more visible damage to him than Prometheus did to Luffy so yes it makes sense.

 

[Eseseso]

It wouldn't be enough to defeat him, one attack from Apoo's devil fruit wouldn't defeat Queen.

If he attacked Queen he'd immediately be an enemy of the beast pirates and Kaidou, he flipped flop his loyalty all throughout the arc on who he thought was the winning side.

There was no Beast Pirate in the area other than Queen who was capable of fighting Apoo.

King was fighting Marco while Kaido was on the roof, so if Apoo had thought he could fight and beat Queen he would've done it.

When he saw the CP0 agents (who were able to damage him, AND tanked the 1-petaton Kazenbo with only moderate damage), he had no issue taking photos of them and taunting them about it.

It absolutely is.

Apoo's explosion knocked Luffy out cold and did more visible damage to him than Prometheus did to Luffy so yes it makes sense.

Luffy right before the Boom was hit with a Bop and only got a bruise on the cheek.

 

[Eminiteable]

There was no Beast Pirate in the area other than Queen who was capable of fighting Apoo.

King was fighting Marco while Kaido was on the roof, so if Apoo had thought he could fight and beat Queen he would've done it.

The whole live floor was filled with beast pirates wdym.

King and Kaido fighting makes no difference as if Apoo attacks Queen he would be an enemy of the best pirates like Drake. If he defeats Queen makes no difference when it comes to that.

When he saw the CP0 agents (who were able to damage him, AND tanked the 1-petaton Kazenbo with only moderate damage), he had no issue taking photos of them and taunting them about it.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here, all this proves is that Apoo is misinformed on his opponents strength level as the result of that fight was him running away before getting defeated.

Luffy right before the Boom was hit with a Bop and only got a bruise on the cheek.

Cool, bop isn't as strong as boom then or it being a blunt force attack makes it weaker due to Luffy's body.

 

[Eseseso]

The whole live floor was filled with beast pirates wdym.

All those beast pirates were fodder, asides Queen.

And as Kachon said above, Queen is viewed as the 2nd strongest of ALL the Beast Pirates that serve Kaido (and King is confirmed to be second only to Kaido amongst all the beast pirates), which is further support for both Queen and no-sword Base King scaling above Apoo.

 

[Kachon123]

To add on, after seeing Luffy get KO'd by Apoo's attack, Queen asked "is that all you got," implying that he is superior to Apoo's attack.

 

[Eseseso]

To add on, after seeing Luffy get KO'd by Apoo's attack, Queen asked "is that all you got," implying that he is superior to Apoo's attack.

Agreed, since he seems to think Luffy is pathetic for getting knocked out by Apoo's attack

 

[Eminiteable]

All those beast pirates were fodder, asides Queen.

Fodder still matter, in Apoo's eyes Kaidou wasn't going to lose. If he attacks Queen he's an enemy of the beast pirates and nothing you've brought up changes that.

And as Kachon said above, Queen is viewed as the 2nd strongest of ALL the Beast Pirates that serve Kaido (and King is confirmed to be second only to Kaido amongst all the beast pirates), which is further support for both Queen and no-sword Base King scaling above Apoo.

Viewed by who? He's the second strongest of the All-Star as Jack can't look in Queen's eye and King is the leader of the all-stars and strongest after Kaidou but there's no statement for Queen.

The all-stars are superior to the tobirropo and headliners but the reason Apoo isn't accounted for is that he's not a ranked role, he's a secret informant used by the beast pirates to get information.

Agreed, since he seems to think Luffy is pathetic for getting knocked out by Apoo's attack

It's in response to him being knocked out quickly, it's not a judgement based on strength.

If Kaidou or King did the same thing and Queen made the same comment based solely on the fact that someone was defeated quickly we wouldn't then assume Queen is using himself as a measuring stick. Luffy losing fast against Apoo isn't an indicator of Queen measuring his strength in comparison.

He also shouldn't scale there in general. Kid, Luffy and Zoro's durability scale to the Yonko which Base Queen blatantly isn't considering in Zoan he was two shot by a hungry tired Linlin.

Bringing this back up, the justification used for Base Queen scaling to the 1.032 PT level itself isn't solid and when we actually see him put up against someone on that level (in actuality below that level due to the Linlin personality, hunger and exhaustion) he was defeated in two hits in a stronger form than base which you're claiming scales.

 

[Eseseso]

Bringing this back up, the justification used for Base Queen scaling to the 1.032 PT level itself isn't solid and when we actually see him put up against someone on that level (in actuality below that level due to the Linlin personality, hunger and exhaustion) he was defeated in two hits in a stronger form than base which you're claiming scales.

And he got up shortly later with like zero damage.

 

[Eminiteable]

And he got up shortly later with like zero damage.

Which is due to his Zoan endurance and recovery, he was damaged and knocked out by the hits.

He was very clearly portrayed not to be even on the level of a heavily nerfed base Big Mom.

 

[Kachon123]

Portrayal argument is so flimsy. By portrayal people like Drake and Apoo shouldn't scale above Queen, but here we are.

 

[Eseseso]

Portrayal argument is so flimsy. By portrayal people like Drake and Apoo shouldn't scale above Queen, but here we are.

Well Drake doesn't scale above Queen (although in my ongoing CRT I am trying to boost Zoan Drake), but you're right about the rest.

 

[Eminiteable]

Portrayal argument is so flimsy. By portrayal people like Drake and Apoo shouldn't scale above Queen, but here we are.

Although I used the word I don't think my argument was based on portrayal, it was based on Queens actual performance against a nerfed Yonko.

Neither Drake or Apoo should scale above Queen physically and I agree with that, but Apoo's devil fruit has consistently shown itself to have better feats than his physicals against opponents who have better feats than Queen.

 

[KingTempest]

What?

Okay.

So in chapter 994, Queen says to Apoo after giving him the cure for the Ice Oni virus that he'll kill him if he loses the vial, and this is supported by Apoo saying that if Chopper doesn't give the vial that he'll die.

Yes, he'll be killed.

This combined with the fact that Apoo didn't try to fight Base Queen (which he would have done if Base Queen were on his level of power) shows that Base Queen is easily above Apoo, and should scale above Apoo's Oto Oto no Mi (which is 1.032 petatons due to both knocking out Base Post Udon Luffy and drawing blood from Zoro and Kid, and all of those 3 have 1.032 petaton durability).

You need to learn something.

Zoan Users can transform to Zoan forms.

Queen is known for his zoan form.

Please do not try to scale Base Queen up there.

With this in mind, you're scaling Base Queen, no sword King, and Sanji to BIG MOM.

This would scale to Queen, King w/o a Sword, and Onigashima Raid Sanji. MP Chopper wouldn't scale because he only drew a small bit of blood from Queen and otherwise was easily defeated by Zoan Queen so he'll remain at 760 teratons.

Scales to none of them, and Chopper didn't draw a small amount of blood, so yeah.

It also makes Queen damaging Big Mom a decent supporting feat (yes I know Queen damaging Big Mom by itself isn't a 1 petaton feat but that's why it is a good supporting feat).

Hell no. We already noted that feat was nothing in other CRTs.

Thoughts?

Edit: As @Kachon123 pointed out below, Queen is stated to be the 2nd strongest Beast Pirate (which should include Apoo), and since King is stated to be 2nd behind only Kaido in terms of the strongest beast pirates, this further supports them both scaling above Apoo.

Queen is never stated to be the second strongest beast pirate, ever.

And Apoo isn't part of the hierarchy.

 

[Eseseso]

What?

Okay.

Yes, he'll be killed.

You need to learn something.

Zoan Users can transform to Zoan forms.

Queen is known for his zoan form.

Please do not try to scale Base Queen up there.

With this in mind, you're scaling Base Queen, no sword King, and Sanji to BIG MOM.

How about scaling just Zoan Queen and above to being above Apoo?

Since if Apoo was >= Queen he would've attacked or defied him probably.

This was the same dude who saw CP0 and was stupid enough to threaten to tattle on them TO THEIR FACES.

Scales to none of them, and Chopper didn't draw a small amount of blood, so yeah.

It wasn't that much blood, and Chopper didn't do any other real damage besides that bitchslap.

 

[Eseseso]

bump

 

[RoyGundam]

Apoo is not superior to Queen. He wasn't even thinking about challenging one of the lead performers to get a promotion

 

[Damage3245]

This isn't worth scaling when the characters have their own feats that they use currently.

With this in mind, you're scaling Base Queen, no sword King, and Sanji to BIG MOM.

Yeah, that's the crazy part about this.

 

[KingTempest]

Apoo is not superior to Queen. He wasn't even thinking about challenging one of the lead performers to get a promotion

X Drake wasn't either, yet we consider him stronger than all 3 Calamities. This argument is ass.

 

[KingTempest]

Yall really ****** the scaling chain up while I was gone

Base Queen > X Drake ~ Yamato ~ Kaidou

Wtf did yall do

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; I've been shaking my head at this the whole time.

 

[Eseseso]

X Drake wasn't either, yet we consider him stronger than all 3 Calamities. This argument is ass.

Yall really ****** the scaling chain up while I was gone

Base Queen > X Drake ~ Yamato ~ Kaidou

Wtf did yall do

deep breath

We do NOT consider Drake above the Calamaties.

In Base, he downscales to 760 teratons, and his Zoan form scales above this.

In Base, he blocked a blow from an angry Yamato but was sent flying (so I don't know why you two think that we put that he is equal to Yamato since his profile states that he only briefly blocked it), so he downscales from that. Also, his base fought both base Zoro and Apoo.

His Zoan form injured Apoo and drew blood from the CP0 leader, who took a 1-petaton Boom from Apoo better than Base Luffy did and should be comparable to his fellow Cp0 agents, who were hit by the 1 petaton Kazenbo.

But since Drake only did piercing damage and was still overpowered by the Cp0 leader, his Hybrid form downscales from this too so it is also 760 teratons.

His Zoan form took Apoo's sound attacks off-screen (since he's shown fighting in Zoan form against an Apoo using his music attacks), but that is ONLY FOR HIS ZOAN FORM'S DURABILITY.

His AP in BOTH BASE AND ZOAN is 760 teratons.

I discussed all of this with @Eminiteable and we agreed on this.

 

[KingTempest]

deep breath

We do NOT consider Drake above the Calamaties.

In Base, he downscales to 760 teratons, and his Zoan form scales above this.

In Base, he blocked a blow from an angry Yamato but was sent flying (so I don't know why you two think that we put that he is equal to Yamato since his profile states that he only briefly blocked it), so he downscales from that. Also, his base fought both base Zoro and Apoo.

His Zoan form injured Apoo and drew blood from the CP0 leader, who took a 1-petaton Boom from Apoo better than Base Luffy did and should be comparable to his fellow Cp0 agents, who were hit by the 1 petaton Kazenbo.

But since Drake only did piercing damage and was still overpowered by the Cp0 leader, his Hybrid form downscales from this too so it is also 760 teratons.

His Zoan form took Apoo's sound attacks off-screen (since he's shown fighting in Zoan form against an Apoo using his music attacks), but that is ONLY FOR HIS ZOAN FORM'S DURABILITY.

His AP in BOTH BASE AND ZOAN is 760 teratons.

I discussed all of this with @Eminiteable and we agreed on this.

Alright, lemme explain to you what downscaling is.

Downscaling means that you're slightly weaker, but still in the ballpark to where you can combat somebody or anything of the sort.

So what you guys did pretty much says that X Drake is slightly weaker than Kaidou.

With that in mind, you're saying that Queen is pretty superior to X Drake, then stack his Zoan Form

So **** the values, cause I know you guys will just say "he upscales from 760 TT", which means "he upscales from a downscaled value".

You're basically putting these guys in the same ballpark.

 

[Eseseso]

Alright, lemme explain to you what downscaling is.

Downscaling means that you're slightly weaker, but still in the ballpark to where you can combat somebody or anything of the sort.

So what you guys did pretty much says that X Drake is slightly weaker than Kaidou.

With that in mind, you're saying that Queen is pretty superior to X Drake, then stack his Zoan Form

So **** the values, cause I know you guys will just say "he upscales from 760 TT", which means "he upscales from a downscaled value".

You're basically putting these guys in the same ballpark.

Oh, so I guess the scabbards were only "slightly weaker" than Kaido, which totally explains why he easily beat them.

Jack is only "slightly weaker" than Kaido by your logic.

Also, base Inu and Neko are baseline 6-A, and their sulong forms >>> their bases, yet they couldn't stand up to Kaido even with Sulong.

 

[KingTempest]

Oh, so I guess the scabbards were only "slightly weaker" than Kaido, which totally explains why he easily beat them.

Jack is only "slightly weaker" than Kaido by your logic.

Yeah, cause they took hits from him. They backscale for taking hits.

Jack scales directly to people with a gap not far to where they can hurt Kaidou.

You gotta learn that Jack ain't Apoo. Ideky you mentioned Jack when he can fight and hurt the dudes who directly fought against Kaidou.

 

[KingTempest]

Also, base Inu and Neko are baseline 6-A, and their sulong forms >>> their bases, yet they couldn't stand up to Kaido even with Sulong.

You need to learn the difference between being capable of hurting somebody and being capable of combatting them.
The vivre cards even said their sulongs were capable of harming Kaidou, so cut that out.

Lmao ykw?

I'll handle it

What needs to be done here?

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah, cause they took hits from him. They backscale for taking hits.

Jack scales directly to people with a gap not far to where they can hurt Kaidou.

You gotta learn that Jack ain't Apoo. Ideky you mentioned Jack when he can fight and hurt the dudes who directly fought against Kaidou.

Ok, although in Apoo's defense his durability also backscales to baseline 6-A due to taking a hit from a very pissed Kid and, asides from bleeding from the mouth, still bring able to fight well.

His AP without his fruit is from matching a casual buso Zoro as well as Hybrid Drake, who as mentioned above drew blood from the CP0 leader who has 1 petaton durability and fought him off screen (so Hybrid Drake back scales from that).

 

[KingTempest]

Ok, although in Apoo's defense his durability also backscales to baseline 6-A due to taking a hit from a very pissed Kid and, asides from bleeding from the mouth, still bring able to fight well.

His AP without his fruit is from matching a casual buso Zoro as well as Hybrid Drake, who as mentioned above drew blood from the CP0 leader who has 1 petaton durability and fought him off screen (so Hybrid Drake back scales from that).

I don't remember listing Apoo in my issues, I said Drake and Queen

 

[Eseseso]

I don't remember listing Apoo in my issues, I said Drake and Queen

You gotta learn that Jack ain't Apoo.

 

[KingTempest]

Cause you... brought up Apoo... I never had an issue with Apoo. I had an issue with Drake, Queen, and how they scale

 

[Eseseso]

Cause you... brought up Apoo... I never had an issue with Apoo. I had an issue with Drake, Queen, and how they scale

Well Queen only scales above Base Drake's durability which is 760tt

 

[KingTempest]

Well Queen only scales above Base Drake's durability which is 760tt

No. Queen scales well above Base Drake's durability, which is above 760 TT but below 1 PT.
Learn that he doesn't scale to 760 TT, he scales above it.

 

[Eseseso]

No. Queen scales well above Base Drake's durability, which is above 760 TT but below 1 PT.
Learn that he doesn't scale to 760 TT, he scales above it.

Ok, my mistake.

Poor wording on my part.

 

[Eseseso]

For King's reasons above this can be closed.