Raiden vs Wesker (8-1-0)

[Unknownnah]

• MGS2 Raiden with all his gear besides the HF Blade and Wigs
• Post-Virus Wesker
• Speed Equalized
• Battle takes place in the RE5 Monarch Room

We’ve managed to avoid drowning: 8

7 minutes man: 1

Incon:

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Wouldn't it take one Stun Grenade for Wesker to be at his mercy?

 

[Lonkitt]

Following fr

 

[Stillwinston]

Voting Raiden here via stun grenade and HF blade reducing Wesker to sashimi

 

[Chariot190]

Isn't Wesker resistant to those in RE5? I mean not that it matters, Wesker's crutch doesn't exist here (his speed), and his AP isn't so high that Raiden can't just straight up handle it unlike Chad Thundercock, and Raiden skillfucks badly to where he can box dudes just as strong as Wesker (Solidus).
HF Blade is a issue, and shit like stingers while avoidable, do become a problem when multiple get fired and home in, limiting Wesker's attention because at some point he's gonna have to deal with them.

Honestly anyone know Glory Days from JoJo? Think shit like that. Honestly, the biggest problem is his disease slop but that won't help if he can't land a hit and infect him (even then, nanomachines almost certainly impede the onset of that).

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Isn't Wesker resistant to those in RE5?

RE5 are Flash Grenades to my recollection, and I think he gets staggered by those. Aren't Stun Grenades WAY more powerful than their real life counterparts? It knocks enemies unconscious instantly, genetically enhanced ones no less. RL ones are meant to disorient not incapacitate entirely.

Edit: ngl he might not even resist them

 

[Chariot190]

RE5 are Flash Grenades to my recollection, and I think he gets staggered by those. Aren't Stun Grenades WAY more powerful than their real life counterparts? It knocks enemies unconscious instantly, genetically enhanced ones no less. RL ones are meant to disorient not incapacitate entirely.

Depends on the model, they're above average, but below the irl higher end models. The MGS2 models have a higher decibel count tho (200 vs 150, 185 for higher ends), but lower candela (about 1 million, extreme high ends go to 10m tho, some MGS ones go up to 8 million candela tho, which is high end irl heavy duty ones but that's for a different game).
Some of that is obv gameplay also they have enhanced senses, it's going to actually effect them harder than normal.

Edit: ngl he might not even resist them

Baken gaslit me ig, yeah he's ****** that's a pretty meaty stagger.

 

[Unknownnah]

Voting Raiden here via stun grenade and HF blade reducing Wesker to sashimi

HF Blade is a issue

He doesn’t have the HF Blade here.

Now, what I DIDN’t know is that Stun Grenades **** him up like that.

 

[Chariot190]

He doesn’t have the HF Blade here.

Now, what I DIDN’t know is that Stun Grenades **** him up like that.

He's still getting a stinger shoved up his ass and stun locked tenever now I fear.
actually how good is his ketamine resistance, that might just open him up to being put to sleep and then nuked.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, Chariot and Fries pretty much covered it well here. MGS2 Raiden hilariously outskills and overwhelms bro with Flash Grenades and Stingers

 

[Random-Helper323]

Wow, they put in the effort to add those touches. He can dodge explosions and bullets but he can't dodge flash bangs. Good attention to detail.

 

[Chariot190]

He can dodge explosions

link

 

[Random-Helper323]

link

Shoot an explosive at him in the game. He can dodge the explosion. He also outruns an explosion in the manga.

 

[Pyro9278]

Raiden FRA

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Raiden FRA

 

[DaReaperMan]

Raiden FRA

Now I want to put him against Kharn in the betrayer's second key, **** your stun grenades

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Raiden FRA

Now I want to put him against Kharn in the betrayer's second key, **** your stun grenades

Raiden outskills to **** and solos your fav verse

 

[DaReaperMan]

Raiden outskills to **** and solos your fav verse

I have the ultimate counter to that: the fact my favorite verse includes Deathwing!

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I have the ultimate counter to that: the fact my favorite verse includes Deathwing!

Shit

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Depends on the model, they're above average, but below the irl higher end models. The MGS2 models have a higher decibel count tho (200 vs 150, 185 for higher ends), but lower candela (about 1 million, extreme high ends go to 10m tho, some MGS ones go up to 8 million candela tho, which is high end irl heavy duty ones but that's for a different game).
Some of that is obv gameplay also they have enhanced senses, it's going to actually effect them harder than normal.

Baken gaslit me ig, yeah he's ****** that's a pretty meaty stagger.

Wesker actually does have res to flash grenades, if you notice in that clip his sunglasses aren't on.
Somehow, someway, the sunglasses means Wesker doesn't get stunned.

 

[Doggo]

Raiden FRA

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Wesker actually does have res to flash grenades, if you notice in that clip his sunglasses aren't on.
Somehow, someway, the sunglasses means Wesker doesn't get stunned.

Does any Resident Evil games describe how potent said flash grenades are? Metal Gear ones are legitimately above anything in real life both in showcase and description, over 200 DB doesn't simply mean sound at that point it means a whole shockwave

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I'm honestly gonna root for the underdog a bit here and go for Wesker.
While on the page, it seems like their skill is leagues apart, Wesker has far more impressive showings than I think he's being given credit for. From RE4 onwards, all the characters have shown to be up to some straight bullshit lmfao. Chris has tied with Leon, who Wesker absolutely manhandled both pre and post virus. Even in cases where he's straight-up let Chris get the "drop" on him, he's able to turn it around. Yeah, I'll admit a big part of it is the stat diff, but even in the games Chris and Sheva have been shown able to react to Wesker.
Yet in the cutscene above the hangar, he absolutely rolls them. Even pre-Virus Wesker absolutely dropped an experienced Chris who just fought through waves of BOW's and survived the horrors of Spencer Mansion. So I mean, yeah I'd definitely give it to Raiden, but Wesker has also rolled experienced soldiers and above-Secret Agent skilled fighters.

Raiden also scales above 1.14 Tons, and Wesker above his value of 4.12 (He's described as a "perfect B.O.W", which the Malacoda would be considered", so that's at least a 3.6x advantage in just their pure stats. People have brought up tranqs, but Wesker isn't the type to just tank shit, he prefers to dodge and avoid whatever's coming his way, which he'll certainly be able to do.
In a battle of attrition, I'd also honestly give it to Wesker as well. Raiden's got some good pain tolerance, and some good regen, but Wesker's pain tolerance is good enough that he has straight resistance to the power plus unquestionably better regen that works at repairing disembowelment even when extremely exhausted, according to his profile at least.

Really, it seems that Raiden's just got to play beat-em-up here. His weapons either get healed instantly or just dodged, he doesn't have his HF Blade, and his stun grenades - which I've seen as a common argument here - are 1. Way slower than the Resident Evil ones, which even in the video presented here, go off damn-near instantly, whereas the ones in MGS2 need a second, 2. Wesker has straight-up resistance if not immunity to when wearing his sunglasses (The only exception being the grenade launcher, but even then, Wesker can just choose to ignore it if you hit him more than once) and 3. Even if effective, only gives Raiden a small window to hit him before again he just kinda - gets back up.
Also, MGS2's Flash Bangs kinda... confuse me. The ones Raiden have are stated to be over 160 decibels, closer to the 170-180 range of actual IRL flashbangs, whereas Snakes are stated to be over 200. Does Snake just have better stun grenades? Because that is a MASSIVE jump. I mean, either way, Raidens are stated to be in that 160 range, which as I mentioned Wesker can just kind of not give a shit about unless they're launched from a grenade launcher into his face, or Raiden chooses to get rid of his sunglasses (funnily enough, easier said than done. I've played the Wesker boss fight multiple times and only rarely get those SoB's off)

I kinda just think Wesker's advantages give him enough of an edge to put Raiden down first. I don't think his endurance is enough to tank that stronk AP difference and allow him to wear down Wesker's bullshit regen. Raiden needs to sit still for a good amount of time to even stop blood flow, Wesker's heals so fast you don't even see the entry wound even if you shoot him in the forehead.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Does any Resident Evil games describe how potent said flash grenades are? Metal Gear ones are legitimately above anything in real life both in showcase and description, over 200 DB doesn't simply mean sound at that point it means a whole shockwave

Admittedly, they don't. But the ones Raiden has sound like just regular IRL flashbangs.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Admittedly, they don't. But the ones Raiden has sound like just regular IRL flashbangs.

The M84 flashbang considered one of the most powerful/widely used goes up to 180 DB. Those used by Raiden and Solid Snake during MGS2 goes over 200 DB. The loudest sound possible is 194 DB, above that, they become shockwaves.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

The M84 flashbang considered one of the most powerful/widely used goes up to 180 DB. Those used by Raiden and Solid Snake during MGS2 goes over 200 DB. The loudest sound possible is 194 DB, above that, they become shockwaves.

The one Snake uses in MGS2 is the 200 one. On the link to Raiden's own profile, the one that's given to him in the context of the game, is said to be "over 160 DBs".

 

[Chariot190]

The one Snake uses in MGS2 is the 200 one. On the link to Raiden's own profile, the one that's given to him in the context of the game, is said to be "over 160 DBs".

They're the exact same model of stun grenade. The characters talking about them simply round them differently, but 200+ is still over 160 all the same.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

They're the exact same model of stun grenade. The characters talking about them simply round them differently, but 200+ is still over 160 all the same.

In most cases, sure, but when it comes to decibels specifically thats waayyy too large a margin to just kind of excuse like that
I also dont know if the videos were shot weird, but Snake's took longer to explode than Raiden's too
again though, the grenades themselves take too long to detonate to really be much of a factor

 

[Chariot190]

Admittedly, they don't. But the ones Raiden has sound like just regular IRL flashbangs.

They literally have stated 200db values. That's about 20db above what's used in literally any military. And they can drop people wearing defensive head equipment as well from like 10m away.

I'm honestly gonna root for the underdog a bit here and go for Wesker.
While on the page, it seems like their skill is leagues apart, Wesker has far more impressive showings than I think he's being given credit for.

The most skilled RE character, is about 20 skill stomps below Raiden. There is not a single feat in the entre verse, that isn't eclipsed by the time of V by a ludicrous amount.

From RE4 onwards, all the characters have shown to be up to some straight bullshit lmfao. Chris has tied with Leon, who Wesker absolutely manhandled both pre and post virus.

Because of a major stat advantage for the latter, and for the former Chris had zero skill feats of note by that point.
You can't use RE4 onward feats, to justify Wesker being skilled for being above a drastically inferior Chris pre-RE4.
Chris has tied with RE6 Leon too, a Chris that killed Wesker already, despite having the major disadvantage.

Even in cases where he's straight-up let Chris get the "drop" on him, he's able to turn it around. Yeah, I'll admit a big part of it is the stat diff, but even in the games Chris and Sheva have been shown able to react to Wesker.

Because he isn't always at peak speed. If that same caveat were to be applied here, Wesker would randomly just sometimes decide to be 100x slower than Raiden and get mauled.
This isn't a good thing, it's extreme hubris that would get him killed here if he pulled the same stunt.

Yet in the cutscene above the hangar, he absolutely rolls them.

Well yeah because he has a ludicrous stat advantage, one he completely lacks here. His biggest advantage is speed, one that is so extreme it's effectively a crutch, that crutch is just straight up gone now.
Wesker also has worse LS, that's extremely bad given Raiden's CQC invokes grabs, he could crush Wesker's skull tbh, if he ever gets a griplock given the gap ain't all that big it might actually be in his favor if that Mantis calc turns out correct, im not sure yet tho im looking into microwaves.

Even pre-Virus Wesker absolutely dropped an experienced Chris who just fought through waves of BOW's and survived the horrors of Spencer Mansion.

So? Shooting bumbling zombies and stuff isn't that impressive, nothing in the mansion is something that'd require extreme skill to compete against. Like nothing Raiden or those inferior to him would have eclipsed.

That pales compared to what say what Venom was doing, where he'd 1v20 whole units of Weskers basically. And he's fodder to Raiden. In fact, Raiden basically fights a 2v100 of Weskers in the form of the Tengu?

So I mean, yeah I'd definitely give it to Raiden, but Wesker has also rolled experienced soldiers and above-Secret Agent skilled fighters.

Mostly because of stats. The most skilled RE character would be lucky to compete against The Boss, let alone Gene, and Raiden is so many skill checks above that he's basically untouchable; Wesker would literally never be able to touch him in hand-to-hand combat. Which is kind of what Wesker has to resort to to actually hurt Raiden.

Raiden also scales above 1.14 Tons, and Wesker above his value of 4.12 (He's described as a "perfect B.O.W", which the Malacoda would be considered", so that's at least a 3.6x advantage in just their pure stats.

Not quite, Raiden downscales like 3.5 tons, but upscales 1 tons. It's a weird iffy, we weren't quite sure whether to rate him "At least 8-C+" or "At most High 8-C", as either is true, I simply decided on the safer one but the actual end result is identical, as one can see in the scaling section.
at least right now, there's 3 High 8-C calcs we have now so he'd be upped a bit to around that anyway).
Don't forget, Wesker is basically dead even in stats with Gray Fox and Solidus, and Raiden can punk both of them just fine and they're way more dangerous than Wesker is in CQC.

People have brought up tranqs, but Wesker isn't the type to just tank shit, he prefers to dodge and avoid whatever's coming his way, which he'll certainly be able to do.

Based on what? Raiden doesn't even have to aim at him, he could aim at some meta 4th wall shit and daze him even if he were to dodge. Not like Wesker can compensate for that, in fact he doesn't dodge in game anyway if you miss by the amount Raiden would to hit said 4th wall stuff.

In a battle of attrition, I'd also honestly give it to Wesker as well. Raiden's got some good pain tolerance, and some good regen, but Wesker's pain tolerance is good enough that he has straight resistance to the power plus unquestionably better regen that works at repairing disembowelment even when extremely exhausted, according to his profile at least.

That's because his profile old lad, we actually removed "resistance to pain manipulation" as a shoe-in for pain tolerance ages ago, Wesker just hasn't been updated to reflect that, or updated in general, someone save his profile...

Yeah, but how long did that take? It's not something he can do mid-combat without leaving himself open for far more extraneous damage.

Really, it seems that Raiden's just got to play beat-em-up here. His weapons either get healed instantly or just dodged,

Stingers, Wesker can't "just dodge" them, they home in, and must be dealt with eventually, sooner or later Wesker is going to have to stop and deal with them somehow, that just opens him up to get mauled as he doesn't have any abilities that let's him multi-task both those and Raiden at the same time.
And they're strong enough to at least put holes in Wesker, that shit is HEAT rounds.

he doesn't have his HF Blade, and his stun grenades - which I've seen as a common argument here - are

This is the only correct point thus far imo, but also a point nobody has made because it's true. Nobody has argued HF Blades.

1. Way slower than the Resident Evil ones, which even in the video presented here, go off damn-near instantly, whereas the ones in MGS2 need a second,

What, you know he can just hold them right? I'm certain that's written on the profile too.
He doesn't need to throw them right away, and that doesn't matter, the match is going to last longer than a 5 second pin pull, so it's going to matter extremely quickly unless you can argue he kills Raiden within seconds which is, well I legit have no idea how you could argue that ngl.

2. Wesker has straight-up resistance if not immunity to when wearing his sunglasses (The only exception being the grenade launcher, but even then, Wesker can just choose to ignore it if you hit him more than once)

And that my friend would be were stealth comes into play, or even worse, nothing stops Raiden from disengaging and sniping.
Also that does depend, what is the candela for the RE ones? They could be anywhere from like a few hundred K to millions. After all, Raiden's can still knock out Tengu and Gurlukovich soldiers even when they have shielding on their eyes.

and 3. Even if effective, only gives Raiden a small window to hit him before again he just kinda - gets back up.

Not true actually, you forget Raiden can stun lock indefinitely, via multiple methods, and a small window is really all he needs to CQC lock him, shove like 10 kg of explosives up his head, or lay him out with so much ketamine it's gon make Vegeta jealous.

or Raiden chooses to get rid of his sunglasses (funnily enough, easier said than done. I've played the Wesker boss fight multiple times and only rarely get those SoB's off)

Raiden can spam claymores and actual grenades, the shrapnel breadth of them is something not even Wesker can avoid, danmaku there for good reason. And if all he needs is to have one of 700+ projectiles tag a pair of glasses, that's not quite hard, especially when the claymores are invisible, it'd be easy to get Wesker to proc one, stealth into sniping is also fair game.

I kinda just think Wesker's advantages give him enough of an edge to put Raiden down first.

Stealth.
If Wesker becomes to much of an issue to engage directly, Raiden can and will disengage and take him out from afar, or through traps and prep. Wesker absolutely does not have the means to stop Raiden should he resort to that.

I don't think his endurance is enough to tank that stronk AP difference and allow him to wear down Wesker's bullshit regen.

It is when a single stray 4th wall shot is enough to lock Wesker into an infinite stun lock. And Raiden's tranqs ae insanely layered, they're greater than those from V.

Raiden needs to sit still for a good amount of time to even stop blood flow,

Stealth. Also he has Rations.

Wesker's heals so fast you don't even see the entry wound even if you shoot him in the forehead.

That's fine, it becomes far less fine when Raiden can shove 20 stingers in his face tho.

In most cases, sure, but when it comes to decibels specifically thats waayyy too large a margin to just kind of excuse like that

Well, unfortunately. It is literally the same model.
It doesn't matter if two different characters round differently if we know they're both the same thing (and I don't mean like, "both stun grenades", they're both the same model of stun grenade), behave identically, work identically and thus whatever the higher minimum is given must also be true for both.

Plus, it's accepted, not really something you can argue unless you want to make a CRT, which I'm not sure why, like what's the argument going to be? One character rounded down, while another rounded less for the same piece of equipment?

I also dont know if the videos were shot weird, but Snake's took longer to explode than Raiden's too
again though,

They both take the exact same time, you can just hold onto them longer before throwing after pulling the pin to time the detonation when and where it'd be most efficient. Goes for all grenade types, like Raiden can pop a grenade, hold onto it and use it last second or pointblank if need be.

the grenades themselves take too long to detonate to really be much of a factor

Unless you can argue that Wesker can kill Raiden in less than 5 seconds or the RE grenades outstat, or that Wesker straight up flees far enough which is more of a self-defeating ploy as that's the best situation you can put Raiden in, I'd argue they're actually pretty useful.
That isn't remotely true. Unless Wesker wants to run way and go so far they'd no longer be a threat, and as such give Raiden a free chance to slip into stealth, which is the worst thing Wesker could possibly enable, he does that, he super ultra dies.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

They literally have stated 200db values. That's about 20db above what's used in literally any military. And they can drop people wearing defensive head equipment as well from like 10m away.

Well, unfortunately. It is literally the same model.
It doesn't matter if two different characters round differently if we know they're both the same thing (and I don't mean like, "both stun grenades", they're both the same model of stun grenade), behave identically, work identically and thus whatever the higher minimum is given must also be true for both.

Plus, it's accepted, not really something you can argue unless you want to make a CRT, which I'm not sure why, like what's the argument going to be? One character rounded down, while another rounded less for the same piece of equipment?

They both take the exact same time, you can just hold onto them longer before throwing after pulling the pin to time the detonation when and where it'd be most efficient. Goes for all grenade types, like Raiden can pop a grenade, hold onto it and use it last second or pointblank if need be.

The reason I brought it up is because it was just - what the profiles told us. The one's Snake has were just given a value way bigger. That might just sound like a 40 DB difference, but apparently even 10 DBs is a ten times difference.
It just seemed iffy to me that they both drop widely different values. Even though, yeah technically 200 DBs is over 160, that's like, what, a 40x difference?
I watched the video kind of late, so my tired brain prolly just mis-counted. My bad.

The most skilled RE character, is about 20 skill stomps below Raiden. There is not a single feat in the entre verse, that isn't eclipsed by the time of V by a ludicrous amount.

Because of a major stat advantage for the latter, and for the former Chris had zero skill feats of note by that point.
You can't use RE4 onward feats, to justify Wesker being skilled for being above a drastically inferior Chris pre-RE4.
Chris has tied with RE6 Leon too, a Chris that killed Wesker already, despite having the major disadvantage.

I brought up RE4 because that's when the craziness of Resident Evil was more in your face.
Even by Resident Evil One, Chris was a member of STARs, an elite Special Forces division made up of ex-military which he joined only after leaving the Airforce.
Admittedly, I've only seen gameplay clips of MGS2, so I wasn't exactly sure what kind of bullshit these guys were on pre-MGR:R, but I was only just trying to argue that Wesker isn't the flopping fish that everyone seemed to portray him as.

Because he isn't always at peak speed. If that same caveat were to be applied here, Wesker would randomly just sometimes decide to be 100x slower than Raiden and get mauled.
This isn't a good thing, it's extreme hubris that would get him killed here if he pulled the same stunt.

This is true. Though Wesker has been shown to abuse his stats more against other blatant superpowers like Alexia and other BoWs, so there's a chance he won't be doing that here once he recognizes that Raiden can actually keep up with him.

Well yeah because he has a ludicrous stat advantage, one he completely lacks here. His biggest advantage is speed, one that is so extreme it's effectively a crutch, that crutch is just straight up gone now.
Wesker also has worse LS, that's extremely bad given Raiden's CQC invokes grabs, he could crush Wesker's skull tbh, if he ever gets a griplock given the gap ain't all that big it might actually be in his favor if that Mantis calc turns out correct, im not sure yet tho im looking into microwaves.

Wesker's LS is actually... far lower than it should be. It's approved on the profiles that he's comparable/superior to the Malacoda Whale and Excella's Uroboros state, but they kinda... Failed to reflect on that when it came to LS. I also wasn't sure if pre-MGR:R Raiden invoked grabs too much because in MGR:R, even when he's unarmed, he doesn't' do it too much and just beats the shit out of you.

So? Shooting bumbling zombies and stuff isn't that impressive, nothing in the mansion is something that'd require extreme skill to compete against. Like nothing Raiden or those inferior to him would have eclipsed.

That pales compared to what say what Venom was doing, where he'd 1v20 whole units of Weskers basically. And he's fodder to Raiden. In fact, Raiden basically fights a 2v100 of Weskers in the form of the Tengu?

I would argue that going through the Mansion absolutely required skill. I wasn't trying to insinuate that it was anywhere near on the level of Raiden, but Chris - an already mentioned ex-military apart of a Special Forces unit - easily got overpowered by a Wesker who didn't even have the Progenitor virus at the time. And Chris only got better with time, going through even more shit and fighting more psychological horrors for eleven straight years before confronting Wesker again who, even after being poisoned twice, was still able to compete with Chris and Sheva even with the majority of his advantages being washed away via overdose of the Progenitor virus.

Mostly because of stats. The most skilled RE character would be lucky to compete against The Boss, let alone Gene, and Raiden is so many skill checks above that he's basically untouchable; Wesker would literally never be able to touch him in hand-to-hand combat. Which is kind of what Wesker has to resort to to actually hurt Raiden.

Pre-Revengeance, what are some examples of MGS character's skill? Really, all I'm trying to prove and say is that Wesker could, and isn't just a fish dead-in-water as soon as they come to swapping hands.

Not quite, Raiden downscales like 3.5 tons, but upscales 1 tons. It's a weird iffy, we weren't quite sure whether to rate him "At least 8-C+" or "At most High 8-C", as either is true, I simply decided on the safer one but the actual end result is identical, as one can see in the scaling section.
at least right now, there's 3 High 8-C calcs we have now so he'd be upped a bit to around that anyway).
Don't forget, Wesker is basically dead even in stats with Gray Fox and Solidus, and Raiden can punk both of them just fine and they're way more dangerous than Wesker is in CQC.

Raiden IS still 8-C+ though, which means he'd be around 1.9 Tons, which is probably the closest you can get to High 8-C without actually being it, which seems fair to give to Raiden.

Based on what? Raiden doesn't even have to aim at him, he could aim at some meta 4th wall shit and daze him even if he were to dodge. Not like Wesker can compensate for that, in fact he doesn't dodge in game anyway if you miss by the amount Raiden would to hit said 4th wall stuff.

I didn't really know what to make of that, honestly. Resident Evil doesn't have any kind of... Fourth-Wall meta functions like that. Can Raiden just "spawn" them? How would that even work?

That's because his profile old lad, we actually removed "resistance to pain manipulation" as a shoe-in for pain tolerance ages ago, Wesker just hasn't been updated to reflect that, or updated in general, someone save his profile...

Wesker's profile actually looked newer given that stuff was bullet-pointed. My bad. I tried to save his profile eons ago and I guess it still needs fixing...

Yeah, but how long did that take? It's not something he can do mid-combat without leaving himself open for far more extraneous damage.

It did take him a hot minute, and I'd normally agree that yeah, waaayy too slow against someone like Raiden, but that wasn't a normal circumstance. It was one of Wesker's first awakening with his powers. He was extremely tired, dealing with absurd blood loss, and was probably as close to death as he could've been.
Normally, Wesker's regeneration works faster than the snap of your fingers. There's not even hints of damage left after getting hit with rockets, shot to hell with machine guns, snipers, shotguns, and being dropped from hundreds of feet into the air. All done while the one weakness he had was in effect, too.

Stingers, Wesker can't "just dodge" them, they home in, and must be dealt with eventually, sooner or later Wesker is going to have to stop and deal with them somehow, that just opens him up to get mauled as he doesn't have any abilities that let's him multi-task both those and Raiden at the same time.
And they're strong enough to at least put holes in Wesker, that shit is HEAT rounds.

Wesker doesn't come into battles unarmed, and he's shown to be capable of using the environment to his advantage if he wants to for simple traversal; he could 100% incorporate those into battle. How good is their homing? In-game and even in cutscenes, Wesker kinda waits until the last minute before getting out of the way. Can they turn that quickly to catch him mid-dodge?
Even if they can, after Wesker heals from the first one (which would take seconds), he's going to be more wary of them. He's likely to shoot them out of the air or cause them to explode prematurely some other way.

This is the only correct point thus far imo, but also a point nobody has made because it's true. Nobody has argued HF Blades.

I saw a few.

What, you know he can just hold them right? I'm certain that's written on the profile too.
He doesn't need to throw them right away, and that doesn't matter, the match is going to last longer than a 5 second pin pull, so it's going to matter extremely quickly unless you can argue he kills Raiden within seconds which is, well I legit have no idea how you could argue that ngl.

I didn't see that on the profile, but maybe I just skimmed over it.
Definitely not arguing that Raiden wouldn't die within seconds, mainly I'm just arguing for Wesker actually standing a chance since I'm just seeing 'lol shitstomp" plastered on the discussion.

And that my friend would be were stealth comes into play, or even worse, nothing stops Raiden from disengaging and sniping.
Also that does depend, what is the candela for the RE ones? They could be anywhere from like a few hundred K to millions. After all, Raiden's can still knock out Tengu and Gurlukovich soldiers even when they have shielding on their eyes.

The candela for Resident Evil's is probably in the millions. They've had futuristic tech since like - ******' 1998 in-verse. And in the time of RE5, with things like Umbrella lasers, they've been incorporating that tech far more into weapons.
Definitely military-grade for sure.

Not true actually, you forget Raiden can stun lock indefinitely, via multiple methods, and a small window is really all he needs to CQC lock him, shove like 10 kg of explosives up his head, or lay him out with so much ketamine it's gon make Vegeta jealous.

I'm actually not sure how long it would take for Wesker to regrow his head. The jump in his healing is disembowelment to a single tissue. But the latter is overtime.

Raiden can spam claymores and actual grenades, the shrapnel breadth of them is something not even Wesker can avoid, danmaku there for good reason. And if all he needs is to have one of 700+ projectiles tag a pair of glasses, that's not quite hard, especially when the claymores are invisible, it'd be easy to get Wesker to proc one, stealth into sniping is also fair game.

Can you provide some proof for the breadth of the claymores and grenades? Wesker's able to dodge the former AFTER he's already stepped on them. And it's not like shrapnel is that debilitating, he'll be done healing that pretty quickly.
Also, you'd really think so, but Wesker's latter boss fights make it extremely hard to get those things off. I'm talking explosives in the face.

Stealth.
If Wesker becomes to much of an issue to engage directly, Raiden can and will disengage and take him out from afar, or through traps and prep. Wesker absolutely does not have the means to stop Raiden should he resort to that.

Stealth. Also he has Rations.

I'll give Raiden this though, Wesker's... Very inconsistent with his writing. In the previous games, he's a tactical genius that lets STARs take as many steps forwards as they can, all the while sabotaging them along the way and making sure he gets more of it than they do. He's capable of tracking stealthy and fast-moving BoWs like Hunters and out-maneuvering the likes of Chris and Leon, the latter of whom is stealthy in his own-right.
...But then in RE5, you just turn off the lights and you can just kind of hit him with anything.
But also, he can just choose to know where you are anyways? Granted, Raiden's stealth is probably way better, but I'm just saying Wesker's shown inconsistencies. You could probably just say "he's ******* with Chris" and you'd be absolutely right, but when fighting literally anyone else who tries it, who knows which path he'll decide to go down.

It is when a single stray 4th wall shot is enough to lock Wesker into an infinite stun lock. And Raiden's tranqs ae insanely layered, they're greater than those from V.

I still kind of want to call into question the legitimacy of the argument. It just seems to be a mechanic of the game that Raiden takes advantage of, rather than Raiden being able to spawn them onto people?

That's fine, it becomes far less fine when Raiden can shove 20 stingers in his face tho.

Unless you can argue that Wesker can kill Raiden in less than 5 seconds or the RE grenades outstat, or that Wesker straight up flees far enough which is more of a self-defeating ploy as that's the best situation you can put Raiden in, I'd argue they're actually pretty useful.
That isn't remotely true. Unless Wesker wants to run way and go so far they'd no longer be a threat, and as such give Raiden a free chance to slip into stealth, which is the worst thing Wesker could possibly enable, he does that, he super ultra dies.

When Wesker retreats, he runs AT you. So I guess it just depends on if Raiden is standing directly over his flashbangs.
And again, the Stingers CAN be dealt with. It's just whether or not Wesker can survive understanding how the first one works. Which I think he can. He recovers from explosives in about a second pretty much each time they're thrown at him.

 

[Lonkitt]

Pre-Revengeance, what are some examples of MGS character's skill? Really, all I'm trying to prove and say is that Wesker could, and isn't just a fish dead-in-water as soon as they come to swapping hands.

There's like a ton of examples of this in the intelligence sections, feats sections, and general skill scaling sections on Raiden's page. Like, an absurd amount

Hell, even CQC users who were active far before Raiden (who Raiden upscales insanely in skill) have enough feats and statements for them to pack up Wesker in melee combat before he even realizes it

 

[DaReaperMan]

Metal Gear is a verse like Warhammer Fantasy: Assume it has the skill advantage.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Metal Gear is a verse like Warhammer Fantasy: Assume it has the skill advantage.

Ive already agreed that it does, I am just trying to say the RE verse is skilled enough that they shouldn't be treated like flailing toddlers.
Especially Wesker.

 

[Lonkitt]

Ive already agreed that it does, I am just trying to say the RE verse is skilled enough that they shouldn't be treated like flailing toddlers.
Especially Wesker.

No one's saying they're incompetent martial artists. They've just got absolutely no chance of putting up a fight against literally any of the relevant martial artists in MGS

Wesker ain't gonna be countering, blocking, or even weaving Raiden's attacks. He certainly isn't gonna be landing attacks either if this comes to straight up melee

 

[LaserPrecision]

It just seemed iffy to me that they both drop widely different values. Even though, yeah technically 200 DBs is over 160, that's like, what, a 40x difference?

Minor nitpick, db are logarithmic. Every 10 decibels is a 10x difference. So it wouldn't be 40x, it would be a 10,000x difference.

Not agreeing with u or against u btw, just wanted to point out the error in ur math there

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Raiden FRA

 

[DaReaperMan]

Pretty sure Raiden like, gigastomps here. Wesker isn't landing a hit on the guy from the verse with martial arts that ***** over all other martial arts and melee styles on FODDER

 

[McFriesGuy075]

• Raiden (Big Shell Incident) > Solidus Snake (Big Shell Incident) > Solid Snake (Shadow Moses Incident) >= Liquid Snake (Shadow Moses Incident) > Gray Fox (Shadow Moses Incident) > Solid Snake (Zanzibar Land Disturbance) > Big Boss (Zanzibar Land Disturbance) > Gray Fox (Zanzibar Land Disturbance) > Solid Snake (Outer Heaven Incident) > Big Boss & Venom Snake (Outer Heaven Incident) > Venom Snake (The Phantom Pain) > Skull Unit ~ Big Boss (Ground Zeroes Incident) > Big Boss (Peace Walker Incident) > Big Boss (San Hieronimo Incident) > Gene > Null > Naked Snake (now Big Boss) > The Boss > Naked Snake V3 > Naked Snake V2 > Naked Snake V1 > Ocelot > Ocelot Unit > GRU, and other elite special forces.

Pretty sure the skill chain present in Raiden's profile right now is a half-assed version that was made in a day

 

[Kellex]

I have never played MGS2, but I have played the OG Metal Gear Solid on the PS1. If Raiden is anything like Gray Fox, then Wesker is getting swiss cheesed with ease.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

I have never played MGS2, but I have played the OG Metal Gear Solid on the PS1. If Raiden is anything like Gray Fox, then Wesker is getting swiss cheesed with ease.

If by "swiss cheesed" you mean cut to pieces, the HF Blade is restricted here. MGS2 Raiden already underwent a recreation of Shadow Moses before the Big Shell Incident even kicked off, so yeah, he did beat Gray Fox.

Big Shell Incident​

Where the Shadow Moses Incident established what Solid Snake looks like at his peak (at the time), the Big Shell Incident is built around an explicit attempt to copy that peak and then push past it. The S3 Plan is summarized bluntly: Solid Snake is now the greatest soldier in history; Raiden's training was meant to recreate him. This is a direct statement that, by this point, Solid Snake sits above the long chain of soldiers and special forces that came before him. And Raiden is being trained to mimic that exact standard.

The way they do it is not subtle. VR is described as "hyperreality", and Raiden is stated to have been trained in it extensively. By the time he is deployed, he has completed 300 missions in VR, including infiltration types, with records further noting over 300 VR missions, including recreations of the Shadow Moses and Tanker incidents with himself in Snake's role. Colonel even points out he covered the Shadow Moses Incident in VR, and it is directly specified that he fought FOXHOUND in VR (Ocelot, Psycho Mantis, Sniper Wolf, Vulcan Raven, and potentially Decoy Octopus). In other words, as his very foundation, from him being recruited into a new FOXHOUND, to being forced to experience and succeed in some of Snake's greatest battles, on purpose: infiltration under pressure, fighting unconventional opponents like Psycho Mantis and Gray Fox, and handling the kind of abnormal scenarios that crafted Snake into the warrior he is. Effectively, before even starting the Big Shell operation, he is a manufactured equivalent to the same kind of operator Snake was at Shadow Moses.