Re:Zero Od CM type 1 shenanigans

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Who is the big boss you need permission from crying

Ong we are nuking CM2 Genshin

 

[Korf3ll]

This is a very straightforward CRT, from our wiki standards of cm type 1

On that note, this is already accepted on our Spirit Physiology Page:


From Olbart's feat of manipulating the od to manipulate the physical appearance of the target itself, meaning the Od has precedence over the physical manifestation





There are also the Insect tribe which change their physical manifestation and become buglike after merging themselves with insects:


From the scans above, the Od is consistently treated as the underlying essence that determines the form and nature of living beings, while the body merely acts as a vessel that conforms to it. Altering the Od directly changes the corresponding physical manifestation, as shown through Olbart’s infantilization, where tampering with the Od reshapes the body and even the mind itself to match it. The same principle is seen with the Insect Cage Clan, whose bodies transform into insect-like forms after merging their Od with insects, and with Petelgeuse’s vessels gradually taking on his appearance over time.


This is further reinforced by Spirits, whose true existence is explicitly their Od rather than their manifested bodies, which can be destroyed and recreated independently.

Thus, In every shown case, the physical form is subordinate to and shaped by the Od itself, establishing the latter as the defining essence of existence rather than a byproduct of the body.

As such, the Od fulfills the standards for Conceptual Manipulation Type 1, as it exists as an incorporeal, existence-defining essence that independently governs and determines physical manifestation.

Additions:
Od gets Type 1 CM
Spirit Physiology page gets updated
Characters who can manipulate souls or mind get CM type 1 manipulation
Characters who resist soul or mind manipulation get resistance to CM type 1 manipulation:

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Seems to be a type 3 concept more than a type 1 concept, and even the type 3 concept is ambigeous, it could also be interpretated as "Soul". But okay let's say it's conceptual by nature, you need to prove for CM1 that the true principle of "Od" is fully independant from all the manifestation that "Od" define in reality. Here, each being seems to have their "own" Od that define their "Own" existence. If a concept only define yourself it can't be interpreted by "Universal independant concept" because the concept only participate to one individual and not every individual. You don't need to govern every principle of the universe to be considered as type 1, but at least all you need to govern in the reality your own object, you're not individual, but plural by nature.

To portray, if it's a type 1 concept, removing the "Od" would mean to remove every beings defined by the "Od". Here we are just talking about the Od of someone and not the principle of Od itself. These are my main issue with Od being CM1.

 

[Reiner04]

So;

1. Altering Od can cause alteration of the body/manifestation.
2. Od is true form or core of being, unique to each.
3. Destroying the body won't affect the Od.

If all that is correct then i can see Type 1 cm here.

 

[Wesker018]

So;

1. Altering Od can cause alteration of the body/manifestation.
2. Od is true form or core of being, unique to each.
3. Destroying the body won't affect the Od.

If all that is correct then i can see Type 1 cm here.

Hey so, in Re: Zero, it's made pretty explicitly clear that if you alter the body, you also alter the soul.

"If the soul changes, the exterior follows suit. The converse is also true."

This means that it is impossible for the soul/Od to be an independent concept. It is not independent from the form (the exterior/body) it is claimed to have authority over. Since it changes when the body changes.

This is like if you changed a circle in reality and the Platonic Form of Circle was altered because of it.

At best, you would be able to get Type 2 concept for this verse. However, nothing outside of Type 3 seems supported at the moment.

 

[Hecky2222]

So;

1. Altering Od can cause alteration of the body/manifestation.
2. Od is true form or core of being, unique to each.
3. Destroying the body won't affect the Od.

If all that is correct then i can see Type 1 cm here.

Insert Soldier Boy meme to Homelander


Edited to include said meme per user's request

 

[Reiner04]

In that case Type 2 or Type 3 yeah, unless that statement itself somehow contradicted.

 

[Cipher72]

So;

1. Altering Od can cause alteration of the body/manifestation.
2. Od is true form or core of being, unique to each.
3. Destroying the body won't affect the Od.

If all that is correct then i can see Type 1 cm here.

Wanker stop wanking, there's causal relationship between the Od and physicality which goes both ways so no CM-1 is out of the window not to mention this isn't exactly a Universal to begin with, it's just Tappei being himself so yea CM-3 has grounds.

 

[SuperNova55555]

So;

1. Altering Od can cause alteration of the body/manifestation.
2. Od is true form or core of being, unique to each.
3. Destroying the body won't affect the Od.

If all that is correct then i can see Type 1 cm here.

 

[BreezeHM]

So;

1. Altering Od can cause alteration of the body/manifestation.
2. Od is true form or core of being, unique to each.
3. Destroying the body won't affect the Od.

If all that is correct then i can see Type 1 cm here.

I told you guys Reiner was a fraud

 

[Reiner04]

Insert Soldier Boy meme to Homelander


Edited to include said meme per user's request

Edited the post to include said meme per user's request

 

[Hecky2222]

Edited the post to include said meme per user's request

Dont make me insert Homelander final words against Butcher

 

[Reiner04]

Dont make me insert Homelander final words against Butcher

That'd be projection of yours.

 

[Hecky2222]

That'd be projection of yours.

This level of cope needs to be studied

 

[RitsuØ1]

Type 2 or Type 3 unless that statement itself somehow contradicted.

^

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I told you guys Reiner was a fraud

Can confirm after this take...

So;

1. Altering Od can cause alteration of the body/manifestation.
2. Od is true form or core of being, unique to each.
3. Destroying the body won't affect the Od.

If all that is correct then i can see Type 1 cm here.

At least he made the correct choice here

In that case Type 2 or Type 3 yeah, unless that statement itself somehow contradicted.

 

[VortechsTG]

In that case Type 2 or Type 3 yeah, unless that statement itself somehow contradicted.

It's not directly contradicted per se, but there is no other example of this happening and destroying the body doesn't destroy the soul. Sphinx's situation is a bit unique because she is a fragment of Echidna's soul placed inside a clone of Ryuzu. Generally, these clones don't seem to have a personality or will of their own, but they at least are capable of independent thought and actions, so it is likely they have some sort of weak od/soul. When the clone body Sphinx was within was burned off, could the change in her soul in question be the removal of the clone's original soul, which had become mixed in? We just don't know, because this is a throwaway line and there is no other example of this happening. The fact it is worded like a general truth makes it all the more confusing that it hasn't come up elsewhere.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Seems to be a type 3 concept more than a type 1 concept, and even the type 3 concept is ambigeous, it could also be interpretated as "Soul". But okay let's say it's conceptual by nature, you need to prove for CM1 that the true principle of "Od" is fully independant from all the manifestation that "Od" define in reality. Here, each being seems to have their "own" Od that define their "Own" existence. If a concept only define yourself it can't be interpreted by "Universal independant concept" because the concept only participate to one individual and not every individual. You don't need to govern every principle of the universe to be considered as type 1, but at least all you need to govern in the reality your own object, you're not individual, but plural by nature.

To portray, if it's a type 1 concept, removing the "Od" would mean to remove every beings defined by the "Od". Here we are just talking about the Od of someone and not the principle of Od itself. These are my main issue with Od being CM1.

Uh, this is just wrong.

The Od is being proposed as the concept of an individuals existence not all of existence hence, it's nature can only be determined by the effect it has on the particulars participating under it. If the Od is supposed to be the concept of all existence though, then each individual having their own Od will indeed be type 3 CM.
What I'm essentially saying is that the Od of Reinhard Van Astrea is supposed to define only Reinhard Van Astrea regardless of how many there are at any given moment even if it's only one. If for some reason multiple Reinhard's exist then there's meant to be only one Od defining all of them for it to be universal.

That being said, I still don't see enough to make the Od a concept, not that the evidence is insufficient but that what is shown is still perfectly achievable through the soul alone. I'll defer to others though if being the "essence" of a being is enough to qualify as a concept though

 

[Tatsumi504]

Also, this was said by DT a while back so if anyone's got a problem with the standards, make a staff thread to revise it.

 

[Zabazab]

so it is likely they have some sort of weak od/soul.

It's likely different for Sphinx since she was filled with Echidna, but the rest of the Ryuzu Clones are said to be born from "Pseudo-Od" (based off of the original Ryuzu?) placed in a Mana-Body. Interestingly enough the clones are also considered by the Trial of Sanctuary as Ryuzu Meyer and see her past instead of their own, despite having never even met her.

Other details would be how Echidna's low blood pressure actually carried over after moving her soul to a different body, a body that didn't even have blood or a heart. And then Sphinx completing herself as the vessel of the Witch of Greed caused her to gain all the memories of Echidna, and her ego eventually being replaced by Echidna's (killed before this happened).

But Sphinx is also considered her own existence, at least having her own Name in Od Lagna's Register, maybe even that Name would be overwritten if she wasn't killed before her transformation into her creator completed.

 

[Crimsonobu]

Geuse green hair and face remains the same 400 years ago when he met Beatrice, 100 years ago during Emilia arc, and currently despite vessel's changing because the vessel changes to follow suit the soul

 

[VortechsTG]

It's likely different for Sphinx since she was filled with Echidna

I don't really agree with this considering in every other example of soul transcription we have seen the recipient body definitively had an Od already. Sphinx is the only case where it's even ambiguous. But I agree with the rest.

 

[Vietthai96]

That being said, I still don't see enough to make the Od a concept, not that the evidence is insufficient but that what is shown is still perfectly achievable through the soul alone. I'll defer to others though if being the "essence" of a being is enough to qualify as a concept though

In one paragraph Od is stated to be the pure property that made human, human so you can definitely argue Od to be concept

All in all, as i have said, i can see Od being type 3 concept, but not soul or mind

Also, this was said by DT a while back so if anyone's got a problem with the standards, make a staff thread to revise it.

Tatsumi: A while back

The comment: 2023

Go back to your cave Tatsumi

R.I.P

 

[Phoenks]

In one paragraph Od is stated to be the pure property that made human, human so you can definitely argue Od to be concept

All in all, as i have said, i can see Od being type 3 concept, but not soul or mind





Go back to your cave Tatsumi


R.I.P

I'm confused by what exactly you mean.

The Od is the soul. And the soul is the mind. In the context of Re: Zero, I mean. So what exactly do you mean when you say the Od is concept type 3, but not the other two?

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm confused by what exactly you mean.

The Od is the soul. And the soul is the mind. In the context of Re: Zero, I mean. So what exactly do you mean when you say the Od is concept type 3, but not the other two?

So soul is 1:1 with Od, or just a produce of Od? From what i saw Od is mana too?

 

[Bahaha]

In one paragraph Od is stated to be the pure property that made human, human

Isn't that just soul things. The expression of the soul results in physical traits or behaviors from people.

 

[Phoenks]

So soul is 1:1 with Od, or just a produce of Od? From what i saw Od is mana too?

The Od is the actual name for the soul in Re: Zero, basically. It is just referred to as the soul sometimes.

"Synonymous with the soul."

"By soul, that would be the very root of ones self... the Od."

 

[Vietthai96]

The Od is the actual name for the soul in Re: Zero, basically. It is just referred to as the soul sometimes.

"Synonymous with the soul."

"By soul, that would be the very root of ones self... the Od."

Then i disagree with even the concept type 3, i thought Od would be > soul, but well, shit

 

[Phoenks]

Then i disagree with even the concept type 3, i thought Od would be > soul, but well, shit

Well, the Od can be the soul/mind and still be a Type 3 concept. Just depends what you think of the language of it being the 'true essence,' of a person and the other stuff.

Most of it is probably flowery language (tappei does a whole lot of that, and I love him for it), but I think there is arguments to be made.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Then i disagree with even the concept type 3, i thought Od would be > soul, but well, shit

Od is mana, soul, mind, a power that defines an individual's existence in the world, contains the destiny, elemental character, memories/names (as we know when Ley steals the name of a person, the entire history is rewritten so that the person never existed, such as the note written by Rem dissappearing from the world and her room being completely empty with all of her belongings dissappearing from the world), and life force

Julius: "The phenomenon itself is exceedingly simple. Everything comprising the caster's soul– their memories, experiences, and most likely, elemental character and destiny– are seared onto the soul of another person."

–Volume 9, Chapter 1

the Od being synonymous with the owner's soul. Affecting the soul also affects the mind, as the mental has been equated to the spiritual

The Memories eaten by Gluttony did not remain extant within the person concerned, the Names eaten by Gluttony did not remain extant within other people. That was because the Authority tore them off from the soul, which defined one’s existence in the world.

The proper cleansing of the soul by Od Lagna, which was practiced in the Hall of Memories―― acting as its agent of its own accord, the Authority of Gluttony would usurp it in stealth.

Therefore, the Memories and Names snavelled by Gluttony did not remain present within anyone.

Restrictively, though there had been ones who had only Memories or only Names stolen away, respective negative effects got applied.

If the Memories were stolen then said person, if the Name was stolen then other people, could no longer remember the person concerned. That could not be altered as long as the disposition of the soul remained within the protection of Od Lagna.

Yet, Natsuki Subaru did remember.

Did remember the ingredient, the soul which had been rendered naked, having Memories and Name both stolen.


–Volume 25, Chapter 3

――That what was termed as Synesthesia, operated via the Ods of two differing individuals being connected.

What was termed as the Od, was the source of power existing in the depths of a human being―― it could also be synonymous for the soul.

Though on instances it was also used in place of Mana as power for utilizing magic, originally, the Od was the pure property itself that made a human, human.

The consequence of having a domain that could not be trespassed by anyone, linking those born of the same womb mutually, perhaps resulted in Synesthesia, so propounded theory.

In the end, it came to be determined as folklore, and was not something that had been proven.

However, since it had been left in the Forbidden Library, it surely was not some phony spiel either. Above all else, Ram personally had taken a liking to that theory.

To have one’s own self and someone else be connected together by birth, was a lovely thing.

–Volume 25, Chapter 7

Soul aflame, life fading to ash, his very destiny was on the cusp of its terminus.

All were engulfed in the blaze, and as Rowan’s self was blurring into the realm after death, he entered into a domain untread by living and undead both―― the interval between life and death, the point that ought to be called the beyond.

That was tantamount to uncovering the very nature, the true essence, of life and the soul.

A few more seconds, real as they might be, the final significance of Rowan Segmunt’s existence would overflow.

–Arc 8, Chapter 64

The Od is a world in and of itself, with not even the authority of gluttony being able to interfere with Anastasia when she goes inside her's

“Anastasia”: “Having ceded the body over to me, and temporarily lying dormant in your Od, you are in a state wherein you will not receive any interference from the outside world―― Because the Od, is a world of a certain kind of peculiarity.”

And by her own volition, she had secluded herself away in that place.

The reason being obvious―― Should she come outside, she would incur the effects. The abhorrent Authority of the Sin Archbishop of Gluttony, she would incur its effects.

She would forget what she wished to never forget, relinquish what she wished to never relinquish.

Anastasia Hoshin would forget Julius Juukulius.

–Volume 25, Chapter 6

Uh, this is just wrong.

The Od is being proposed as the concept of an individuals existence not all of existence hence, it's nature can only be determined by the effect it has on the particulars participating under it. If the Od is supposed to be the concept of all existence though, then each individual having their own Od will indeed be type 3 CM.
What I'm essentially saying is that the Od of Reinhard Van Astrea is supposed to define only Reinhard Van Astrea regardless of how many there are at any given moment even if it's only one. If for some reason multiple Reinhard's exist then there's meant to be only one Od defining all of them for it to be universal.

This does occur, Vincent burns one sphinx's soul and all the other sphinx's errupt in flames. One Od did define them all.

 

[Vietthai96]

While you can certainly argue for such a thing, i don't think so, because Od don't need to be concept to be able to be essence and root of something. Of course if Od is not soul and superior to it, you have more chance to get CM for Od, due to it make Od separate from soul and not be it thus all statement for Od is not for soul

Od is mana, soul, mind, a power that defines an individual's existence in the world, contains the destiny, elemental character, memories/names (as we know when Ley steals the name of a person, the entire history is rewritten so that the person never existed, such as the note written by Rem dissappearing from the world and her room being completely empty with all of her belongings dissappearing from the world), and life force









The Od is a world in and of itself, with not even the authority of gluttony being able to interfere with Anastasia when she goes inside her's




This does occur, Vincent burns one sphinx's soul and all the other sphinx's errupt in flames. One Od did define them all.

Still at best CM3

 

[Phoenks]

Btw why didn't OP just use name as evidence?

Od contains the Name and Memories. When the name is vanquished, the person is erased across all of history (with the world being rewritten as though they were never there) and wiped from everyone's minds. And such is just a singular aspect derived from the Od.

 

[Trxyway]

Btw why didn't OP just use name as evidence?

Od contains the Name and Memories. When the name is vanquished, the person is erased across all of history (with the world being rewritten as though they were never there) and wiped from everyone's minds. And such is just a singular aspect derived from the Od.

He doesn't want it bad enough

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Op could have even wanked by bringing up how Od also supposedly contains not just a person's memories, and elemental character, but even their destiny.

But yea names being apart of the od which if eaten/erased even rewrites causality to fit with that person never existing such as if they wrote a letter, the letter would be blank or their personal possession disappearing, was a better arguement.

 

[Emils_tempest]

I don't know if this is related to the discussion, but since we're talking about physiology/soul, I'd like some opinions on this:
Roswaal: "Through our gates, we will carve the contract into our souls. No matter who you may deceive, you cannot deceive your own heart. The contract engraved in our souls will persist over distance, over time, even over worlds. It will likely have effect against your resets, too."

 

[God_of_perversion]

If only rezemos fans knew how to wank their verse like mgk fans,we would have two layers of cm and law manip on every authority by now
I agree with the OD being at least cm3 and has some good arguments for cm2,cm1 is out of question tho

 

[Zabazab]

I'd like some opinions on this

Subaru's soul isn't reversed when he Returns by Death, so a Curse Oath that's engraved in the soul would "follow" Subaru through a reset.

 

[Crimsonobu]

Subaru's soul isn't reversed when he Returns by Death, so a Curse Oath that's engraved in the soul would "follow" Subaru through a reset.

Isn't the time and world parts that are important and not RBD. Roswaal doesn't know the mechanics of return by death but has absolute faith the curse oath cannot be removed once it is engraved no matter what happens.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This line of dialogue was cut from the LN, so don't think its worth spending too much time on honestly.

 

[Crimsonobu]

This line of dialogue was cut from the LN, so don't think its worth spending too much time on honestly.

That line of dialogue is cut from the LN but the Curse marks should work the same because if it didn't then Roswaal had no reason to put faith in it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Op could have even wanked by bringing up how Od also supposedly contains not just a person's memories, and elemental character, but even their destiny.

But yea names being apart of the od which if eaten/erased even rewrites causality to fit with that person never existing such as if they wrote a letter, the letter would be blank or their personal possession disappearing, was a better arguement.

You're talking about these

Julius: "The phenomenon itself is exceedingly simple. Everything comprising the caster's soul– their memories, experiences, and most likely, elemental character and destiny– are seared onto the soul of another person." –Volume 9, Chapter 1

Info type 2:

Subaru: “To begin with, borrowing her body? What kind of situation is that?”

“Anastasia”: “To put it simply, I overwrite my existence in Ana’s Od, and I borrow her freely, that is the situation. In this state, I am able to control Ana’s body at will, I can also manipulate Ana’s Gate, which is defective from the start, and use magic.” –Volume 20, Chapter 7

Changing the soul is like copying and pasting a computer file