Re Zero Skill Evaluation

[Fezzih_007]

I don't think you getting what i am asking.
He did a kick against her,

before sending a kick straight into the woman’s torso. Had Garfiel’s kick connected cleanly, it would have undoubtedly ruptured all her internal organs.

she dodges and attacks his leg

Having already foreseen this second straight kick, the woman avoided it with minimal movement as she lined up her next attack: a backward slash with her blade.

That blow, apparently intended to serve as punishment for foolishly resorting to the same technique a second time while fighting a powerful foe, hit its mark.

but his kick connects anyway, even trought she dodged and stabbed his leg

In that same instant, Garfiel’s foolish kick slammed right into the woman’s face.

What i asking how he did it.

 

[Zabazab]

Tappei lied in the text before immediately defying that expectation, to mimic the feeling of Elsa's expectation being defied, I believe.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Tappei lied in the text before immediately defying that expectation, to mimic the feeling of Elsa's expectation being defied, I believe.

Hmmm, while i can see that, i don't understand how exactly the scene happened?

 

[VortechsTG]

Hmmm, while i can see that, i don't understand how exactly the scene happened?

She probably just twisted her body to the side.

 

[Fezzih_007]

She probably just twisted her body to the side.

So i don't understand how they hit each other then.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Like, in this situation, just one of them should get the hit.

 

[Zabazab]

Also- while the fight in the anime isn't bad, pretty good actually especially for S2, I don't feel that it does the Novel version justice. I'd recommend it in your spare time.

 

[VortechsTG]

I really don't get what's so confusing to you bro

 

[Fezzih_007]

I really don't get what's so confusing to you bro

How Garfiel hit Elsa with the kick, if she dodge it and stabbed his leg.

 

[Zabazab]

She didn't avoid the attack. The text lied in order to defy your expectations. Tappei does it a lot.

 

[VortechsTG]

Well, she dodged in order to avoid the torso kick but since he was not really aiming there he hit anyway.

 

[Fezzih_007]

That makes zero sense. Like, she sees his kick and she assumes that is the same kick as before that aiming in her torso, but she predict wrong, and is actually aiming to her face. So is a different kick that he did before.
What exactly she avoid it and slash his leg? He trows a kick at her, and she moves to avoid his kick, hit his legs, but the kick that his trows hit her because she moved wrong, how the heck did she moved wrong? How exactly she confused the kick aiming at her head to her torso?
In the anime makes sense, she already seen the kick, she avoid it, slash his leg, but Garfiel skilled as he his, stab her eyes with hid hands. Garfiel counter the counterattack in the anime.

 

[Zabazab]

If you're still not able to understand, I'd recommend just reading the whole fight. It's really good.

 

[Fezzih_007]

If you're still not able to understand, I'd recommend just reading the whole fight. It's really good.

Eh, i don't know if that would help, but okay.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Does the manner with which he countered ultimately matter? I don't really think so, at this point is everyone in agreement with @Epiccheev that Garfiel has resistance to Elsa's analytical prediction?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yeeeeeees, I think I agree that he resist Elsa analytical prediction.

Just confused how he did kick her, because it don't see to make sense.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Perfect, we have defined what exact abilities are being scaled, so now is the next step; do we believe these abilities do scale among the characters, and if so which ones and to whom. I have made an argument that skill feats do scale and who the skilled people are, but again i could be wrong.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Perfect, we have defined what exactly the abilities are to scale, so now is the next step; do we believe these abilities do scale, and if so which ones and to who.

Right, i as watching bleach and forgot to make a review on that part of the blog, gonna do it now.

 

[VortechsTG]

Perfect, we have defined what exact abilities are being scaled, so now is the next step; do we believe these abilities do scale among the characters, and if so which ones and to whom. I have made an argument that skill feats do scale and who the skilled people are, but again i could be wrong.

Some of the movement abilities are definitely different. Like for example none of the other characters on Elsa's level really twist and jump around like she does. But the supernatural abilities like extrasensory perception and aura should definitely scale. The only one that doesn't is Accelerated development.

Some characters like for example Julius and Theresia have reached their max potential and can't get any faster and stronger via flow method like Garfiel or ex 2 Wilhelm. And there are cases like Garfiel who had a mental block until arc 5 and wouldn't get any stronger. There should probably also be a note that there is a max level they will eventually hit.

But even for someone like Theresia a stronger opponent can bring out her maximum skill like we see in arc 5 so that's still something. It's just not the same.

 

[Zabazab]

I do believe they mostly scale, due to the convergence of skill that is the Sword Saint/Heavenly Sword, as well as the universal power system of mana circulation/the Flow Method that grants these abilities in the first place.

Some specific things like Elsa's movement feel more like fighting style differences, but her ability to percieve and counter danmaku etc. should scale.

As for tiers, what's laid out in the blog is pretty good. For every character that has a feat appear in the blog, I'd say:

Reid > Reinhard >>> Peak Wilhelm = Cecilus = Theresia = Kurgan > Young Wilhelm = Libre = Normal Rai(?) = Rui(?) >> Old Wilhelm = Theresia (zombie) = Ram = Hornet(?) = Marcos > Carol = Grimm = Roswaal J > Garfiel = Julius = Priscilla(?) = Kurgan (zombie) >= Elsa > Aldebaran > Nobody knights

Anyone with a (?) I'm unsure about.

 

[VortechsTG]

I do believe they mostly scale, due to the convergence of skill that is the Sword Saint/Heavenly Sword, as well as the universal power system of mana circulation/the Flow Method that grants these abilities in the first place.

Some specific things like Elsa's movement feel more like fighting style differences, but her ability to percieve and counter danmaku etc. should scale.

As for tiers, what's laid out in the blog is pretty good. For every character that has a feat appear in the blog, I'd say:

Reid > Reinhard >>> Peak Wilhelm = Cecilus = Theresia = Kurgan > Young Wilhelm = Libre = Normal Rai(?) = Rui(?) >> Old Wilhelm = Theresia (zombie) = Ram = Hornet(?) = Marcos > Carol = Grimm = Roswaal J > Garfiel = Julius = Priscilla(?) = Kurgan (zombie) >= Elsa > Aldebaran > Nobody knights

Anyone with a (?) I'm unsure about.

Old Wilhelm and zombie Theresia and Kurgan appear to be just as skilled as they were alive with Wilhelm being equal to normal prime Wilhelm, not the power of love. At the very least Kurgan should not be below the other two. Garfiel is just faster and stronger than Old Wilhelm.

Priscilla>Elsa is wack when she's supposedly only = Crusch. She's very naturally talented but she hasn't trained at all.

Ram is definitely pretty equal to Ley as well.

Hornette is definitely skilled but Marcos and Ram are monsters. Especially Ram.

Grimm and Carol should be waaaaaaaaaay higher.

 

[Epiccheev]

Now that i think about it there could be an experience section for some of the characters, considering when it comes to maxed out characters of the same level experience is the deciding factor.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@VortechsTG Where did you get the idea the zombies are as skilled as when they were alive? I don't think the story supports that, in fact it's the opposite... Theresia only regained her skill at the moment of death

He had been forced to see his dead wife against her will and then ended it with his own sword. And Garfiel had been trampling on their parting words by suggesting it might all be a lie.


I’d have no right to complain if he cut me down right here and now for that.


But Wilhelm just shook his head.


“You needn’t trouble yourself. At your age, it is only natural that you would be impatient to find your answer. Indeed, that you could bring yourself to apologize proves you are far more adult than I was at your age.”


“…It’s hard to believe you were ever like that.”


“Not at all. I was a fool. Then…and perhaps even now.”


Wilhelm looked down, as if in thought, and Garfiel felt a sting of awkward embarrassment.


Wilhelm was famed as the sword devil and the stories about him were legion, but it was hard to imagine with his genteel manner now. If anything, his words sounded like the merciful consolation of a kindly older man.


I’ve got a lotta things I’ve screwed up since coming to Pristella that I needa think about…


But either way—


“Sparing the roundabout phrasing, the two people we fought regained themselves only in the very moment of their death. Before that moment, the skill of her sword was false… Were it not, if I had truly fought my wife in her prime, there would be no way that I at my age would have returned alive. And I can say the same for Kurgan.”-Volume 21, Interlude

I could also post zombie Libre being inferior to alive Libre, but i am still puzzled where you got this idea from. I also have no idea where Hornet, this random character from a sidestory is being seen as this skill monster.....

Also Old Wil being Young Wil level, enlighten me guys.

 

[Zabazab]

I agree on zombies having less skill.

For Hornet again I'm very unsure of her, been a while since I read Crimson Afterglow, but Al did hype her up and she was likely equal to a Divine General. That might just be in stats and not skill as well.

I'm fine with her being way lower too, though. You've read it more recently than me.

 

[VortechsTG]

If I were making a ranking of my own it would probably be something like Reid >> Reinhard >> Peak Wilhelm = Cecilus = Theresia = Kurgan > Grimm = Carol = Roswaal J = Normal Rai = Ram >>> Hornet(?) > A5 Garfiel = Julius >= Elsa > Crusch = Priscilla >> Aldebaran = Nobody knights

Marcos and Libre are huge question marks. We know how strong Marcos has gotten but not how skilled. And how Libre compares to everyone else in pretty much every way is a complete mystery besides him being stronger and surely more skilled than someone like Elsa or A5 Garf.

 

[VortechsTG]

Where did you get the idea the zombies are as skilled as when they were alive? I don't think the story supports that, in fact it's the opposite... Theresia only regained her skill at the moment of death

I suppose you're probably right about this part. I take back that part of what I said. Still, it's made very clear Old Wilhelm, Zombie Kurgan, and Zombie Theresia are way more skilled than others at their level like Garfiel and Julius.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ignoring the Hornet ranking who again we just know is vaguely 9 Divine General level, we haven't gotten a comparison that i can remember for Julius skill with anyone, hence why he was kind of in limbo. I am sure Tappei said somewhere he could kill Elsa, but we know Julius is haxed so it says nothing of his skill.

As for Gaf i was gonna address it in my reread and eventual CRT for vol 16-19, but yes indeed Arc 5 Garf is more skilled than before, besides the obvious 1 year time skip, he briefly survived fighting Kurgan and Theresia, albeit they clearly weren't a 100%, and as seen later with Wilhelm, Garf is still inferior to him.

 

[Zabazab]

Garf cannot be defeated by Julius apparantly, but it could be due to overwhelming power/speed rather than skill? I'm not sure.

Q: Garfiel was feeling down about being unable to scratch the Sword Saint, but if he trains, does he have the makings of someone in the upper strength class?

A: Honestly, Garfiel is currently already in the upper strength class. At the very least, amongst the knights for the royal selection candidates, no one except Reinhard can beat him. Let's not use Reinhard as a basis for comparison. He's like a Disgaea character that came down into the Dragon Quest world.

 

[VortechsTG]

We haven't gotten a comparison that i can remember for Julius skill with anyone, hence why he was kind of in limbo. I am sure Tappei said somewhere he could kill Elsa, but we know Julius is haxed so it says nothing of his skill.

True. But iirc arc 6 shows him being more skilled than Emilia who is already an extremely skilled fighter so I think he would have to at least be comparable to Elsa. He just also appears to be physically weaker and slower without magic.

As for Gaf i was gonna address it in my reread and eventually CRT for vol 16-19, but yes indeed Arc 5 Garf is more skilled than before, besides the obvious 1 year time skip, he briefly survived fighting Kurgan and Theresia, albeit they clearly weren't a 100%, and as seen later with Wilhelm, Gaf is still inferior to him.

Yeah, he's a bit more skilled than in arc 4. He just couldn't get any stronger or faster.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

But is arc 6 Emilia, as skilled as Elsa though? What skill feats does she have? I read arc 6 years ago so i have no clue. The plan was to update as the LN comes out.

Also before we go too deep into scaling, lets hammer down exactly what abilities will scale. And also wait for agreement that skill scaling is indeed allowed.

 

[VortechsTG]

But is arc 6 Emilia, as skilled as Elsa though? What skill feats does she have? I read arc 6 years ago so i have no clue. The plan was to update as the LN comes out.

I know she dealt with a danmaku in fb back when she had no training. She's pretty natural talented. I'm not saying she's as skilled as Elsa but I can't see someone being portrayed as way more skilled than her and not being as skilled as Elsa but who knows. It's probably best to not scale him.

Also before we go too deep into scaling, lets hammer down exactly what abilities will scale. And also wait for agreement that scaling is indeed allowed.

Alright

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

My opinion is that skill feats can be scale between characters

Some of the movement abilities are definitely different. Like for example none of the other characters on Elsa's level really twist and jump around like she does. But the supernatural abilities like extrasensory perception and aura should definitely scale. The only one that doesn't is Accelerated development.

Some characters like for example Julius and Theresia have reached their max potential and can't get any faster and stronger via flow method like Garfiel or ex 2 Wilhelm. And there are cases like Garfiel who had a mental block until arc 5 and wouldn't get any stronger. There should probably also be a note that there is a max level they will eventually hit.

But even for someone like Theresia a stronger opponent can bring out her maximum skill like we see in arc 5 so that's still something. It's just not the same.

This i think is pretty accurate, Elsa's fighting style is being very mobile, hence why she is called spider woman, but sensing intent to kill for example is something i feel could be scaled to others.

For Ex Novel 2 Wilhelm, we do see him get strong and faster over the course of the story, but yea once we reach where he faces Theresia it's clear that was his limit, though he somehow broke that limit, getting faster and stronger, so i think his accelerated development should probably stay.

Also agree Theresia and Old Wil would also have it. Characters like Cecilus who has Reid level potential, and Reinhard who apparently has no real bottlenecks, would keep AD too.

 

[VortechsTG]

For Ex Novel 2 Wilhelm, we do see him get strong and faster over the course of the story, but yea once we reach where he faces Theresia it's clear that was his limit, though he somehow broke that.

Yeah, Wilhelm breaking his limit with the power of love is something that is quite interesting. There isn't really anything like that. I would argue it's more of a temporary powerup than him developing at a fast speed though.

Also agree Theresia and Old Wil would also have it. Characters like Cecilus who has Reid level potential, and Reinhard who apparently has no real bottlenecks, would keep AD too.

I can agree with Theresia having it. Facing Reinhard did bring out her max skill. But at the same time it should be made clear it's different from other characters who get faster and stronger. Old Wil I don't remember any specific examples off the top of my head but maybe there's something like Theresia's feat I forgot.

Agreed with Cecilus and Reinhard.

 

[VortechsTG]

Here's the skill feat from Frozen Bonds btw. It's even crazier than I thought and Emilia has trained a lot since then.

Emilia spread her arms, at the same time the men behind the bearded man started to scatter. They were all equipped with crossbows, both their numbers and weaponry made this encounter far more dangerous than the previous one.

Even so, she had to defeat them. She would bring all twenty of them down and make them swear not to harm the forest or the village. If she couldn’t do that, the forest she’d tried so hard to protect would be violated.

“——”

There was no cue to start the battle. Emilia charged without warning, keeping low as she did so. The sounds of firing crossbows overlapped as a rain of arrows tore through the air.

However, Emilia avoided them with a mere twist of her body. The arrows were too fast to track by eye, so she would dodge by reading the shooters’ intent. It was that simple, but there was the question of how many people could do such a ‘simple’ thing.

Surrounded by the sound of arrows piercing the snow, Emilia slammed her palm into a man’s torso. The hardness she felt beneath his fur clothes was not that of trained muscle. He had something like a steel plate stuffed under his clothes which absorbed the impact of her blow.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Zombie Theresia got stronger because a sword's master strength can be drawn out by a superior opponent, Wilhelm is also a sword master like Theresia.

That Emilia feat though, WTF... Dodging a rain of arrows by reading intent, precog i think? And Emilia in like arc 1 isn't even that skilled compared to others, you might be able to argue this scales to people like Priscilla and Crusch, this is Emilia before any real sort of training.

She usually fights Pre-Arc 5 as like a magic castor, not a warrior.

 

[Zabazab]

Emilia is a bit of a berserker in combat, she uses no specific martial art or technique- relying on her instincts for battle similiar to Garfiel, although not nearly to Garfiel's extent since he uniquely consciously thinks so little in combat that mind-readers can't beat him.

Q: Happy birthday, Garfiel! I've like him a lot for a long time now! When Garfiel is getting himself worked up before a battle or the like, what does he do?

A: He thinks "I'll knock 'em flat!!" and fills his head with the will to win. If he ran into someone who could read minds, he could beat them just by doing this.

 

[VortechsTG]

Zombie Theresia got stronger because a sword's master strength can be drawn out by a superior opponent, Wilhelm is also a sword master like Theresia.

That Emilia feat though, WTF... Dodging a rain of arrows by reading intent, precog i think? And Emilia in like arc 1 isn't even that skilled compared to others, you might be able to argue this scales to people like Priscilla and Crusch, this is Emilia before any sort of training.

Yeah, it's even stated in arc 7 that Emilia is basically power while Priscilla is skill. I can ask someone who has the ln to check if that's still in it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I was thinking i would skip the Frozen Bonds re-read, since i read it within the last like 3 years, and i have a trove of feats from it, then i saw this feat....

Now i have to re-read, i was not paying that close attention before.

 

[VortechsTG]

Yeah, it's even stated in arc 7 that Emilia is basically power while Priscilla is skill. I can ask someone who has the ln to check if that's still in it.

I asked around and it's in the ln.

Now that I think about it I seem to also recall a quote about Crusch beating Julius once.

Q: A tale of Crusch-san's valor!

A: Actually, in the past, she defeated Julius with the sword. Neither of them were aware who the other was, so they didn't realize it. - 2018 Crusch QnA

So maybe Priscilla=Crusch=Julius?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That doesn’t do him any favors that in swordsmanship Crusch can beat him, though that's in the past.

How does he scale currently? We know Priscilla=Crusch, but again nothing about how he scales besides possibly below Garfiel, while above Emilia.