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Regarding Base Goku's speed during Namek saga...

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SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

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Well as you all may already know Lord Kavpeny's computer has crashed and as he is unable to create the threads for the issues regarding DBZ I'll shall be doing them in his stead.

This thread is for discussing the issues regarding Base Goku's speed during Namek saga and is made to solidify Goku's and other characters' speed during this arc as mentioned in this thread.

The community will be revising this issue from scratch. So kindly present your arguments regarding this issue here on this thread, including the references and the context.

Do remember, while everyone will keep an open mind regarding the statistics, irrational fanboyism will get you banned, Eg: Buu being Multiversal.

Everyone is expected to calmly discuss the changes that are to be made and to not be unreasonable. And everyone is also expected to not derail the thread away from the main topic.

Current stance on the issue: Currently Base Goku's speed during this arc is accepted as being Massively Hypersonic to Sub-Relativistic.

Revised stance on the issue: Undetermined.

Discuss!
 
These are some feats http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20640

Piccolo's beam speed equals mach 1500 Nappa could dodge Piccolo's blasts

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/..._ball_-_v015c218_-_page_009.jpg?v=11379216344

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/..._ball_-_v015c218_-_page_010.jpg?v=11379216344 And Goku was casually faster than Nappa http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/..._ball_-_v015c224_-_page_013.jpg?v=11379837823 http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/..._ball_-_v015c224_-_page_014.jpg?v=11379837823 I will say he is only mach 1500 Goku got 10x faster after training under 100x gravity according to the manga http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-8/dp/1569319375 So he is mach 15,000 With his SSJ multiplier he is mach 750,000 (relativistic+) This is ignoring Goku's Zenkai https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/Goku_crosses_Namek Another speed feat I will show more a bit
 
@GTgokussj4: Nope only the Kaioken multiplier affects all stats. The Super Seiyajin multiplier only effects the DC (which technically includes Striking Strength) stats...
 
We only know that the SSJ multipliers increase power. We don't know if the multiplier effects speed as even if it did we don't know by what amount as the multiple didn't specify that it increased speed by the same amount it increased power.

Also I made a 3000 word long blog post to increase bleach speed stats using a stated multiplier and guess what it didn't get accepted because multiples can only be used for speed stats only if they are specifically stated to either increase speed or all stats.

And again even if the multiplier did increase speed we don't know by what amount and are simply speculating on that as such it can't be used to increase speed.

Now please discuss the main topic...
 
And there is no statement, no written stated proof of that. If the super saiyan multiplier was specifically stated to have increased speed then we could have used the multiplier ffor it but since it didn't we can't.

It's the same as this example. Character A is Mach 100. Character B blitzed A so he should be faster than Character A but since we don't know his exact speed he's also rated at Mach 100.

It's similar here even if the multiplier increased speed we don't know by ho much it increased speed as it wasn't stated. And we're just speculating saying that it's a 25X increase or a 50X increase.

Once again please discuss the main topic. And please do state proper reasoning and proof for as to why you think Goku is at a certain speed... level
 
I don't need to look at the video dude. As I've already said multipliers can only be used for increase speed stats only if they are ''specifically'' stated and shown to do as such.
 
1) That's not accepted here.

2) The last time I tried to use a multiplier to increase speed stats it wasn't accepted so I know whether if it's accepted or not.

3) Please discuss the main topic. And provide reasoning and proof for as to why base Goku's at a certain speed level. And please drop it with the multiplier increasing speed stats. If that was so then a lot of franchises would also get upgrades in speed...
 
It went like this. The multiplier was supposed to make you 5-10 times more powerful.

And this character's form which granted the multiplier was specifically stated and shown to increase the character's speed yet I couldn't use the multiplier.

And I've already discussed this before the SSJ multipliers may effect speed stats but we don't know if it also specifically increases a person's speed by 50X or whatever the multiplier is.

As such we go by feats regarding speed stats.
 
I can't think of any as of right now, but If it's allowed i might look into trying to work out how different Kai is from the Standard DBZ Anime, because somewhere down the track the normal dbz anime diverges from the manga in terms of Power/Stat calculations, but if Kai has it the same way then it could be considered fair evidence
 
It defenetly affects speed, let's take and example from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHAMYdaERIA , as you can see Trunks augmentated his power yet sacrifice his speed. Even Cell stated to what's the point of having all that power if he doesn't have the speed to back it up. Besides if SSJ transformation didn't increase speed then Goku wouldn't have been able to stomp Frieza in the Namek Saga, it would just be a huge power boost with no speed to back it up just like the example shown in the video.
 
@CaptainFalcon64: Where's the proof that it increases a person's speed by 50X. It has to have feats to prove this other wise it wouldn't be applicable since this wasn't a multiplier which was specifically stated to increase speed.

If this was applicable then a lot of other multipliers from other franchises would be applicable as well abut we don't consider them as such so we don't consider this as being applicable either.

Now I'm getting tired of this subject. The multiplier doesn't effect speed. It and all other multipliers unless they are specifically stated to are not accepted as being able to increase speed as much as they increase power and that's not changing any time soon.

So besides that if you think that goku should be at a a different speed level because of feats or calcs which we may have overlooked then please stated them.
 
Stefano4444 said:
FanofRPGs said:
These are some feats http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20640Piccolo's beam speed equals mach 1500 Nappa could dodge Piccolo's blasts
Click to expand...
The problem here is that AT hadn't drawn the Moon in scale 1:1.
And in an interview, he even conferm that the DB Moon, is in the same distance of our Moon.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/280261-toriyama_moon_super.jpg

So that KI blast was at least Relativistic+ to Lightspeed.
Click to expand...
^this

on NF they made the distance between earth and the DB moon shorter which resulted in a lower speed, but they ignared toriyama's statement that it's the same distance as it's in our universe, so it's either relativistic or light speed.

SSJ multiplies the speed equaly as it multiplies power, because if it's not the case, Goku would get speedblitz by 100% frieza, since the later was already faster than kaioken 20x goku in his 50% form.
 
First captainfalcon64: this form is the only one in the whole show that make you stronger but doesn't increase your speed.

SSJ (a regular one. not the form trunks used) affects speed. allow me to explain myself. We already know Kaioken modify all stats (speed included). Goku's maximum kaioken = kaioken 20 (multiplies all stats by 20).

When Goku fought final form Frieza on namek, at one moment Frieza used the half of his strenght (exactly 50%). Goku was totally owned by Frieza (in both strenght and speed). Yamcha and the others were watching this via king kai's power. And they said "there's still a hope. Goku can use the kaioken". But king kai told them "he is already using the kaioken 10". Then goku used very briefly the kaioken 20 against 50% final form Frieza. He had the same strenght than him (the two of them used a ki attack and they negated each others because they had the same power).

Since Goku had the same strenght than frieza and if kaioken 20 increase both his strenght and speed by 20 compared to his base form. Then since he was equal to 50% while temporarily in kaioken 20 (that means base goku is at 2,5 % of final form Frieza full power). Then if it doesn't increase speed as well. Can you explain me how he managed to defeat 100% final form frieza?

If his speed was the same, then Frieza should blitz him, even if he was a SSJ (just as he did when he was in kaioken 10 while using only 50% of his strengh).

Conclusion. If Goku SSJ is faster ans stronger than someone who's twice stronger and faster (frieza 100% compared to frieza 50%) than the one who could blitz him while he was using the kaioken 10 and had the same speed and strenght than him while he used the kaioken 20. Then we can conclude Goku's speed and strenght are both increased and multiplied by 50 while he is a SSJ, otherwise he wouldn't be able to defeat Frieza if his speed wasn't increased as well.


Allow me to remind this:


base goku (namek against frieza): 3 000 000

Goku kaioken 10: 30 000 000

Frieza 50%: 60 000 000

Goku kaioken 20: 60 000 000

Frieza 100%: 120 000 000

Goku SSJ: 150 000 000

(offical numbers)


So if he can't increase his speed at least twice more than his kaioken 20 as SSJ, can you explain me how he could win to Frieza?

Conclusion: if he managed to win SSJ multiplie all his stats. And once again: if Trunks was blitzed by cell it's only because this form is the only one in the show that doesn't increase speed. Otherwise they couldn't win to opponent such as majin buu who's hundreads of time faster and stronger than them in their base form.

QED
 
Aimenaltair said:
SSJ multiplies the speed equaly as it multiplies power, because if it's not the case, Goku would get speedblitz by 100% frieza, since the later was already faster than kaioken 20x goku in his 50% form.
Click to expand...
And?. That isn't proof that the multipliers increase their speed by 50X times.

I've already stated the this example.Character A is Mach 100. Character B blitzed A so he should be faster than Character A but since we don't know his exact speed he's also rated at Mach 100.

It's similar here even if the multiplier increased speed we don't know by ho much it increased speed as it wasn't stated. And we're just speculating saying that it's a 25X increase or a 50X increase.

Now drop this subject. I've already said that if there are any feats or calcs which we overlooked then bring them up otherwise this thread isn't going anywhere.
 
Jeune fou said:
First captainfalcon64: this form is the only one in the whole show that make you stronger but doesn't increase your speed.
SSJ (a regular one. not the form trunks used) affects speed. allow me to explain myself. We already know Kaioken modify all stats (speed included). Goku's maximum kaioken = kaioken 20 (multiplies all stats by 20).

When Goku fought final form Frieza on namek, at one moment Frieza used the half of his strenght (exactly 50%). Goku was totally owned by Frieza (in both strenght and speed). Yamcha and the others were watching this via king kai's power. And they said "there's still a hope. Goku can use the kaioken". But king kai told them "he is already using the kaioken 10". Then goku used very briefly the kaioken 20 against 50% final form Frieza. He had the same strenght than him (the two of them used a ki attack and they negated each others because they had the same power).

Since Goku had the same strenght than frieza and if kaioken 20 increase both his strenght and speed by 20 compared to his base form. Then since he was equal to 50% while temporarily in kaioken 20 (that means base goku is at 2,5 % of final form Frieza full power). Then if it doesn't increase speed as well. Can you explain me how he managed to defeat 100% final form frieza?

If his speed was the same, then Frieza should blitz him, even if he was a SSJ (just as he did when he was in kaioken 10 while using only 50% of his strengh).

Conclusion. If Goku SSJ is faster ans stronger than someone who's twice stronger and faster (frieza 100% compared to frieza 50%) than the one who could blitz him while he was using the kaioken 10 and had the same speed and strenght than him while he used the kaioken 20. Then we can conclude Goku's speed and strenght are both increased and multiplied by 50 while he is a SSJ, otherwise he wouldn't be able to defeat Frieza if his speed wasn't increased as well.


Allow me to remind this:


base goku (namek against frieza): 3 000 000

Goku kaioken 10: 30 000 000

Frieza 50%: 60 000 000

Goku kaioken 20: 60 000 000

Frieza 100%: 120 000 000

Goku SSJ: 150 000 000

(offical numbers)


So if he can't increase his speed at least twice more than his kaioken 20 as SSJ, can you explain me how he could win to Frieza?

Conclusion: if he managed to win SSJ multiplie all his stats. And once again: if Trunks was blitzed by cell it's only because this form is the only one in the show that doesn't increase speed. Otherwise they couldn't win to opponent such as majin buu who's hundreads of time faster and stronger than them in their base form.

QED
Click to expand...
^also this

and a 40x ssj multiplier in speed would make goku equal to 100% frieza, so it's safe to assume it's higher than 40x, or we can use 40x as a lowball.
 
Jeune fou said:
First captainfalcon64: this form is the only one in the whole show that make you stronger but doesn't increase your speed.

SSJ (a regular one. not the form trunks used) affects speed. allow me to explain myself. We already know Kaioken modify all stats (speed included). Goku's maximum kaioken = kaioken 20 (multiplies all stats by 20).

When Goku fought final form Frieza on namek, at one moment Frieza used the half of his strenght (exactly 50%). Goku was totally owned by Frieza (in both strenght and speed). Yamcha and the others were watching this via king kai's power. And they said "there's still a hope. Goku can use the kaioken". But king kai told them "he is already using the kaioken 10". Then goku used very briefly the kaioken 20 against 50% final form Frieza. He had the same strenght than him (the two of them used a ki attack and they negated each others because they had the same power).

Since Goku had the same strenght than frieza and if kaioken 20 increase both his strenght and speed by 20 compared to his base form. Then since he was equal to 50% while temporarily in kaioken 20 (that means base goku is at 2,5 % of final form Frieza full power). Then if it doesn't increase speed as well. Can you explain me how he managed to defeat 100% final form frieza?

If his speed was the same, then Frieza should blitz him, even if he was a SSJ (just as he did when he was in kaioken 10 while using only 50% of his strengh).

Conclusion. If Goku SSJ is faster ans stronger than someone who's twice stronger and faster (frieza 100% compared to frieza 50%) than the one who could blitz him while he was using the kaioken 10 and had the same speed and strenght than him while he used the kaioken 20. Then we can conclude Goku's speed and strenght are both increased and multiplied by 50 while he is a SSJ, otherwise he wouldn't be able to defeat Frieza if his speed wasn't increased as well.


Allow me to remind this:


base goku (namek against frieza): 3 000 000

Goku kaioken 10: 30 000 000

Frieza 50%: 60 000 000

Goku kaioken 20: 60 000 000

Frieza 100%: 120 000 000

Goku SSJ: 150 000 000

(offical numbers)


So if he can't increase his speed at least twice more than his kaioken 20 as SSJ, can you explain me how he could win to Frieza?

Conclusion: if he managed to win SSJ multiplie all his stats. And once again: if Trunks was blitzed by cell it's only because this form is the only one in the show that doesn't increase speed. Otherwise they couldn't win to opponent such as majin buu who's hundreads of time faster and stronger than them in their base form.

QED
Click to expand...
First what's with the wall of text.

Second are there any feats. No. Well that's a shame then.

You should know that certain franchises which have literally no feats at all can be FTL if we apply multipliers like these all the time. As such unless the multipliers are specifically stated to increase speed as well as strength we don't consider them applicable. And even then if the feats contradict the multipliers then they aren't applicable even if they are stated to increase speed.

If there's anything else then you can let me know. The multiplier isn't accepted to increase speed by 50X or whatever amount and that's that.
 
SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
Jeune fou said:
First captainfalcon64: this form is the only one in the whole show that make you stronger but doesn't increase your speed.

SSJ (a regular one. not the form trunks used) affects speed. allow me to explain myself. We already know Kaioken modify all stats (speed included). Goku's maximum kaioken = kaioken 20 (multiplies all stats by 20).

When Goku fought final form Frieza on namek, at one moment Frieza used the half of his strenght (exactly 50%). Goku was totally owned by Frieza (in both strenght and speed). Yamcha and the others were watching this via king kai's power. And they said "there's still a hope. Goku can use the kaioken". But king kai told them "he is already using the kaioken 10". Then goku used very briefly the kaioken 20 against 50% final form Frieza. He had the same strenght than him (the two of them used a ki attack and they negated each others because they had the same power).

Since Goku had the same strenght than frieza and if kaioken 20 increase both his strenght and speed by 20 compared to his base form. Then since he was equal to 50% while temporarily in kaioken 20 (that means base goku is at 2,5 % of final form Frieza full power). Then if it doesn't increase speed as well. Can you explain me how he managed to defeat 100% final form frieza?

If his speed was the same, then Frieza should blitz him, even if he was a SSJ (just as he did when he was in kaioken 10 while using only 50% of his strengh).

Conclusion. If Goku SSJ is faster ans stronger than someone who's twice stronger and faster (frieza 100% compared to frieza 50%) than the one who could blitz him while he was using the kaioken 10 and had the same speed and strenght than him while he used the kaioken 20. Then we can conclude Goku's speed and strenght are both increased and multiplied by 50 while he is a SSJ, otherwise he wouldn't be able to defeat Frieza if his speed wasn't increased as well.


Allow me to remind this:


base goku (namek against frieza): 3 000 000

Goku kaioken 10: 30 000 000

Frieza 50%: 60 000 000

Goku kaioken 20: 60 000 000

Frieza 100%: 120 000 000

Goku SSJ: 150 000 000

(offical numbers)


So if he can't increase his speed at least twice more than his kaioken 20 as SSJ, can you explain me how he could win to Frieza?

Conclusion: if he managed to win SSJ multiplie all his stats. And once again: if Trunks was blitzed by cell it's only because this form is the only one in the show that doesn't increase speed. Otherwise they couldn't win to opponent such as majin buu who's hundreads of time faster and stronger than them in their base form.

QED
Click to expand...
First what's with the wall of text.

Second are there any feats. No. Well that's a shame then.

You should know that certain franchises which have literally no feats at all can be FTL if we apply multipliers like these all the time. As such unless the multipliers are specifically stated to increase speed as well as strength we don't consider them applicable. And even then if the feats contradict the multipliers then they aren't applicable even if they are stated to increase speed.

If there's anything else then you can let me know. The multiplier isn't accepted to increase speed by 50X or whatever amount and that's that.
Click to expand...
Well you keep talking about ssj multipliers not being close to 50x, care to state how on earth ssj goku could handle 100% frieza if kaioken 20x goku couldn't handle 50% frieza, plz do tell.
 
I am going to post a commnt regarding the death beams in a bit, I can't on this kindle.

Base Goku is at least sub--relativistic using the crossing Namek calc though
 
LordAizenSama said:
I can see this going nowhere fast..
Click to expand...
no the feat has been stated by Fannon, but Schul is saying that ssj multipliers don't affect the speed evenly as it effects power, which is completely wrong sionce if it wasn't for at least 40x speed multiplier, frieza would own ssj goku.
 
It's highly possible SSJ transformations increase speed as well, but as Schut said, there isn't evidence this increase is nearly as much as the power multiplier.

However, this is irrelevant, as base Goku's speed is what is being questioned, and the thread should stay on that topic.
 
Aimenaltair said:
Well you keep talking about ssj multipliers not being close to 50x, care to state how on earth ssj goku could handle 100% frieza if kaioken 20x goku couldn't handle 50% frieza, plz do tell.
Click to expand...
Sigh. First of all don't twist my words around. I said the SSJ multipliers were an unknown I never stated that they are not being close to 50x in speed.

And this would mean that the Kaioken multiplier is simply inconsistent with it's showings. A 50X speed upgrade doesn't just happen without any feats whatsoever.

The only thing which partly supports any increase in speed whiles Frieza used more of his power was the kaioken multiplier. But it going be stated that the kaioken multiplier was inconsistent since literally no feats support.

If you apply this to other franchises then they would be FTL without any feats.

If there are any feats which support this 50X multiplier then I'll accept it but if there ain't then sorry but it ain't gonna be accepted.

You need feats to upgrade stats...

Now I'm gonna ask this for the last time. Is there any feats or calcs which we overlooked for Base goku in the frieza saga to be placed on a different speed level...
 
Oblivion00 said:
It really is going nowhere, anyway I thought this was about Base Goku's speed not SSJ.
Click to expand...
well base goku was dodging nappa casually in the saiyan saga, nappa reacted to piccolo's beams, the later's beams are relativistic+ to light speed using the moon calc, then we have namek goku pre zenkai, itwas said that he was 10x faster, and then he crassed half of namek in less than 1sec, blocked death beams from frieza casually and escaped the light ball of death, that puts base goku at relativistic+ and that's when with a huge lowball.
 
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