Dragon Ball AP, sad downgrade (Raditz/Saiyan/Namek Saga Tiers only)

[Chariot190]

Not gonna bother reading it honestly this isnt worth my time you're the kind of stonewall even a tier 0 character cant break
I'm disengaging with this thread idgaf where it goes at this point

Literally just show one feat, and/or statement, within one magnitude of the alleged tier, and then explain why this is ok, but 4-C, 4-B, 4-A, and so on Raditz, via the exact same methods, isn't, and why we're cherry picking and drawing the line here, when really, it extends even beyond them. Do that, and I will concede, it ain't exactly stonewalling if there's a very obvious way to prove your side correct, if you can't do so, that ain't stone walling, it's you not having the required evidence

Nobody is saying multipliers bad by themselves, like 50x SSJ, even KK usually, etc all fine in a vacuum, we're saying "hey taking a hundred disconnected ones might, and in fact have, resulted in some fuckys, especially when done backwards".

It simply doesn't check out. Lad, I don't make the rules, this is basic wiki standards.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Literally just show one feat, and/or statement, within one magnitude of the alleged tier, and then explain why this is ok, but 4-C, 4-B, 4-A, and so on Raditz, via the exact same methods, isn't, and why we're cherry picking and drawing the line here, when really, it extends even beyond them. Do that, and I will concede, it ain't exactly stonewalling if there's a very obvious way to prove your side correct, if you can't do so, that ain't stone walling, it's you not having the required evidence

Nobody is saying multipliers bad by themselves, 50x SSJ, even KK usually, etc, we're saying "hey taking a hundred disconnected ones might, ad in fact have, resulted in some fuckys, especially when done backwards".

It simply doesn't check out. Lad, I don't make the rules, this is basic wiki standards.

Not gonna bother reading it honestly this isnt worth my time

dont tag me again in this thread I'm no longer interested in this crap

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Don't think the slippery slope argument really works here, the multiplier method only works up until like the Frieza fight, literally no way to go higher

 

[Ednaxel2]

Oh 2 more pages of this popped up overnight

 

[Chariot190]

Oh 2 more pages of this popped up overnight

Slowest DB CRT on wiki be like

 

[Ednaxel2]

Great Ape Goku with a PL of 100, physical strength is described as "easily able to pulverize a 30 inch thick steel wall", but if he used Kaioken his AP would be moon level...

Oh we can make this worse, a regular dude in DB ranges from 10 - 5, if they were to hypothetically go SSJ they would be able to contend with 22nd Budokai to King Piccolo arc Moon level characters, or worse but above Raditz Saga Goku and Piccolo

 

[Ednaxel2]

Well, i don't understand what's going on, but would like to hear from Op how this would change the scale of our characters?

I already posted the new chain scaling without hypothetical multipliers in the spoilers at the bottom

Here is the new AP scaling chain with this change, calc, and Zarbon's multiplier:

Spoiler: New Ratings

Raditz Saga​

• Unweighted Goku is >=1/20th as strong as his Saiyan Saga self, Piccolo is comparable to him - 22.1558317334 Zettatons (Small Planet level)
• Gohan with a power level of 1,307 is 3x as strong as Goku - 66.4674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
• Raditz has a slightly higher power level of 1,500 and can tank an unexpected head-but from this Gohan. Piccolo kills both Raditz and Goku with his Special Beam Cannon - 66.4674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • As an Oozaru, Gohan and Raditz are 10x stronger - 664.674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)

Saiyan Saga​

• Krillin is superior to Raditz - 66.4674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • Krillin split his Kamehameha into 6, 4 of which killed 4 Raditz-level Saibamen - 398.804971201 Zettatons (Planet level)
• Gohan is superior - 66.4674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • As an Oozaru he's 10x stronger - 664.674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
• Goku is 1/3th the strength of his Kaio-ken x3 self, Nappa is comparable to him albeit is weaker - 443.116634667 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • Kaio-ken Goku - 886.233269334 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • Kaio-ken x3 Goku, overwhelms Vegeta and matched his Galick Gun - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
  • Kaio-ken x4 Goku overwhelms Vegeta's Galick Gun - 1.77246653867 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Nappa is comparable to Goku albeit is weaker - 443.116634667 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • As an Oozaru, Nappa is 10x stronger - 4.43116634667 Yottatons (Large Planet level)
• Vegeta is superior to Kaio-ken x2 Goku, and has a Battle Power of 18,000 which is enough to destroy a planet. Can match Kaio-ken x3 Goku with his Galick Gun, also threatened to destroy Earth with it - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
  • As an Oozaru, Vegeta is 10x stronger than his base - 13.29349904 Yottatons (Large Planet level)

Namek Saga​

• Zarbon is stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, gets several times stronger after transforming (3x) - 3.988049712 Yottatons (Large Planet level)
• Goku got 10x stronger than his previous base - 4.43116634667 Yottatons (Large Planet level)
  • Kaio-ken Goku - 8.86233269334 Yottatons (Large Planet level)
  • Kaio-ken x10 Goku - 44.3116634667 Yottatons (Large Planet level)

Rest of the values don't matter for this change

 

[omegabronic]

I already posted the new chain scaling without hypothetical multipliers in the spoilers at the bottom

I think we should discuss to see if the assumption of the Super Dragon Ball's size should scale to every planet in DB in another thread, that seems to be a topic of its own separated from the downscaling issue

 

[Ednaxel2]

I really dont wanna hear it from you miss "base goku universal rule is wrong"

That CRT was like one or two years ago

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I already posted the new chain scaling without hypothetical multipliers in the spoilers at the bottom

So the Freeza saga won't be a star?

 

[Ednaxel2]

So the Freeza saga won't be a star?

If the other thread gets accepted sure, but we'll have to wait for that

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

If the other thread gets accepted sure, but we'll have to wait for that

I see, i'm going to stay neutral about things here since i don't understand about multipliers.

 

[Padaruyos]

Dawg what happened here

 

[Jaakor48]

Just to understand another thing

Is the OP assuming that namek Goku kkx10 would not have a 900k power level from his base of 90k because it wasn't said?

 

[Veronica]

Or say Kaioken 10x Goku is at least X joules from First Form Frieza feat.

 

[Jaakor48]

Or say Kaioken 10x Goku is at least X joules from First Form Frieza feat.

same thing, if they don't agree with the linear increase of Kaioken, they can't do this

 

[Veronica]

same thing, if they don't agree with the linear increase of Kaioken, they can't do this

But Kaioken 10x Goku is objectively more powerful than First Form Frieza in every category. Unless you think two different races with the same power level. Somehow let the other destroy something greater. Which is there no evidence for.

 

[Jaakor48]

But Kaioken 10x Goku is objectively more powerful than First Form Frieza in every category. Unless you think two different races with the same power level. Somehow let the other destroy something greater. Which is there no evidence for.

That's what I am asking, because that seems to be the direction here, unless I am mistaken, doing away with any of the ok multipliers that weren't shown even if goku could have used it


I mean kaioken multipliers should be allowed to upscale or downscale freely, it's the only thing that's actually linear

 

[Veronica]

That's what I am asking, because that seems to be the direction here, unless I am mistaken, doing away with any of the ok multipliers that weren't shown even if goku could have used it


I mean kaioken multipliers should be allowed to upscale or downscale freely, it's the only thing that's actually linear

Yes, Kaioken x2 increases ones, power level/Ki reserve not literally their strength and speed by two. So I don't see the problem.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Just to understand another thing

Is the OP assuming that namek Goku kkx10 would not have a 900k power level from his base of 90k because it wasn't said?

Yes, again hypotheticals lead to scaling issues

 

[Veronica]

Yes, again hypotheticals lead to scaling issues

So you are saying "a hypotheticals SSJ3 Raditz with a PL of 600K, doesn't necessarily mean he can destroy Planet Vegeta like First Form Frieza?" In a sense I understand it since Akira/Toei would think Raditz is moon level and he is now like 400x times stronger. So lets make him just planet level. That's the only way I can think of

 

[Jaakor48]

Yes, again hypotheticals lead to scaling issues

But we know KKx2 gives him 180k

Why would kkx10 be different?

So would he be weaker than first form Frieza at kkx10?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yes, Kaioken x2 increases ones, power level

not their strength and speed by two.

What?

 

[Ednaxel2]

But we know KKx2 gives him 180k

Why would kkx10 be different?

Again we can't assume hypothetical multipliers as I've made it clear so many times in this thread. We shouldn't be giving characters the benefit of the doubt based on assumptions as that leads to many issues.

So would he be weaker than first form Frieza at kkx10?

Yes

 

[Jaakor48]

Again we can't assume hypothetical multipliers as I've made it clear so many times in this thread. We shouldn't be giving characters the benefit of the doubt based on assumptions as that leads to many issues.

There is.... literally no assumption
Base Goku is 8000, kkx4 is 32,000, that's 4 times increase

In that same scan, Namek base Goku is 90,000, his KKx2 is 180,000, again, that is 90k * 2, two different sagas, the same technique mechanism

Why would you need anything more to know a kkx10 would be 90k x 10, why would you assume arbitrarily that it would be less than 530k, a less than 6x boost? This makes no sense, going against the very nature of a technique to avoid issues, is what will bring issues

Yes

That would be very wrong imo

 

[DivineAura44]

And once again Occam's Razor (why TF would DBZ's power levels NOT be linear despite it's consistent showings past anything moon level like 8,000 becoming 32,000 through KKx4 or Super Saiyan being a 50x multiplier of Goku's 3 million base) vs Hitchen's Razor (dawg, there's literally no statement for any of this shit being linear or feats even near where the multipliers would put them and you are making assumptions based on other multipliers in the series) shows it's ugly head again. Who will win? Find out on the next episode of DBZ.

 

[KingTempest]

Is that farmer with a shotgun a moon buster?

 

[Veronica]

Is that farmer with a shotgun a moon buster?

True, I think after a certain threshold of PL. It becomes quite of linear.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It wouldn't be assumed, the statement is flat out. It is simply inconsistent, but so is 90% of the stuff in this scaling chain so what else is new?

I'm gonna be honest. I know 90% is a hyperbole, but still, I don't think this mindset is healthy for the debate at all. And I'm saying after having a meltdown one comment earlier.

Saying it's not worth arguing for one inconsistency because other exist is not the way to go. In my scenario, we have a multiplier that comes from a much lower grade of reliability, which is inconsistent with a substantiated, reliable and mostly consistent multiplier that's been stated in primary canon.
All I'm saying is that Kaioken should be prioritized, and Zarbon's multiplier needs to go.

That's why saying "well, let it go, there are other inconsistencies" is disingenuous. Because yeah, duh, but they're not related to this particular problem. We should strive for the least amount of inconsistencies, and that means choosing the more reliable option. I don't think axing BP entirely is the way to go either, because most examples, no, ALL examples, are from early Dragon Ball.
Before Battle Powers were introduced
Before transformation multipliers were even conceptualized
Before Kaioken was a thing.

It's unfair to use them as an example of how the concept is inconsistent with the series, since when it was actually implemented, it was perfectly usable. Just ignore these earlier values, it's not hard at all. No, they weren't linear, except for a couple of ranges thanks to outside factors, but still.

This whole debacle about how inconsistent it would be if we applied the same principles and multipliers from DBZ on DB is resolved by simply not applying them at all. It's frustrating to see people abusing the fact early DB wasn't given much thought when BP was introduced to complete change the scaling.

 

[Padaruyos]

Tbh if 8k to 32k is perfectly linear due to Kaio Ken, I think scaling Base Goku to just 80% of the planet busting value isn't a bad idea.

 

[Jaakor48]

Tbh if 8k to 32k is perfectly linear due to Kaio Ken, I think scaling Base Goku to just 80% of the planet busting value isn't a bad idea.

It's absolutely fine to do this since we've been directly told and shown it's linear

8k to 32k
Namek arc 90k to 900k with Goku's KKx10
And Frieza arc 3m to 60m with his KKx20


Are all covered by the kaioken. This would ironically make scaling much easier for any power levels within those ranges. Yet apparently kaioken x10 Goku with a base of 90k is supposed to be weaker than first form Frieza with a power level of 530k because the shoes didn't multiply 90,000x10 for us?

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

Bump

 

[Nierre]

what's the general consensus of this thread?

 

[Jaakor48]

what's the general consensus of this thread?

The issue is whether we should continue accepting Kaioken as a linear increase or not

 

[Nierre]

The issue is whether we should continue accepting Kaioken as a linear increase or not

Thanks. What's the issue with treating Kaio-ken as a linear increase?

 

[omegabronic]

The issue is whether we should continue accepting Kaioken as a linear increase or not

Power levels, not kaioken itself

Of course no one will remove the multiplier

 

[Jaakor48]

Thanks. What's the issue with treating Kaio-ken as a linear increase?

Still wondering this myself

Power levels, not kaioken itself

Of course no one will remove the multiplier

kaioken is the issue. OP literally advocated that Goku with KKx10 would be weaker than first form Frieza because we weren't given a power level of his x10 form

 

[omegabronic]

kaioken is the issue. OP literally advocated that Goku with KKx10 would be weaker than first form Frieza because we weren't given a power level of his x10 form

aka the problem is the power level, not the multiplier for Kaioken itself, which no one is going to remove in this thread

 

[Jaakor48]

aka the problem is the power level, not the multiplier for Kaioken itself, which no one is going to remove in this thread

...

Kaioken multiplies your power level

Goku at base is 90k
Kkx10 is 900k


OP says he'd be weaker than 530k Frieza because there is no proof that he'd have a PL of 900k, which goes against the very nature of thr technique, what do you mean problem for power level?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Allow any downscaling/upscaling in specific ranges where it's shown to be linear, ignore anything else.