Dragon Ball AP, sad downgrade (Raditz/Saiyan/Namek Saga Tiers only)

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

You just gave reason why we shouldn't, probably best to stop while you're ahead here

Have you attempted reading what the point actually was instead of trying to chime in like an asshole without full context?

My point is that, we still abide by Battle Powers in the sense of, "If X's BP is higher than Y's BP, X > Y", not that we abide by it as a linear grid for Attack Potency. We do, however, approve of and consider the Kaioken as a linear, consistent and reliable multiplier.
Kaioken is directly related to a set of Battle Power values, which contradicts Zarbon's multiplier outright. We know for a fact anything from 24,000 to 32,000 cannot be over a 1.25x difference. The same holds true for 16,000 to 24,000 in their own scale.
This isn't arguing BP should be treated as linear functions, but rather that Kaioken gives these very specific ranges some linearity by the techniques own nature.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Topaz, if someone's is higher than another, we can say "A > B".

But when it gets to direct values with a lack of evidence like this verse, that's where scrutiny becomes a big problem

Great time arguing with a wall, mind actually paying attention to my point this time?

Idc about not using BP for downscaling anymore, I'm trying to remove Zarbon's multiplier which comes for a less reliable source than the Kaioken, and contradicts a, again, very specific range of power level values.

Literally, how can "23,000 to 29,000" Battle Power be a 2x or 3x multiplier when we know for a fact, "16,000 to 32,000" is 2x MAX? (Thanks to Kaioken)

 

[Chariot190]

Have you attempted reading what the point actually was instead of trying to chime in like an asshole without full context?

I did, it was bad, moving on, direct insults are report-worthy, cut it out unless you don't want a say anymore in general.

My point is that, we still abide by Battle Powers in the sense of, "If X's BP is higher than Y's BP, X > Y", not that we abide by it as a linear grid for Attack Potency. We do, however, approve of and consider the Kaioken as a linear, consistent and reliable multiplier.
Kaioken is directly related to a set of Battle Power values, which contradicts Zarbon's multiplier outright. We know for a fact anything from 24,000 to 32,000 cannot be over a 1.25x difference. The same holds true for 16,000 to 24,000 in their own scale.
This isn't arguing BP should be treated as linear functions, but rather that Kaioken gives these very specific ranges some linearity by the techniques own nature.

Cool, that really doesn't change the effect BP is inconsistent, I mean, case and point, you're arguing a stated value, and BP, and Kaioken all contradict, probably a red flag in and of itself.

Great time arguing with a wall, mind actually paying attention to my point this time?

Do it again dog and you're getting reported.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Okay there is some extremely disingenuous argumentation going on here we are literally throwing out the most consistent multipliers within the verse for some made-up "inconsistency" and because we should apparently be thankful we get to use a grand total of 3 (kaioken) multipliers (for upscaling only) because other verses with stated multipliers have it worse on here as if that isnt the fault of the Wiki staff being overtly pedantic as opposed to a verse's fault

at this point Im just tempted to create my own CRT with actual sensible scaling once the minimum time limit of a repeated CRT passes by because scaling stuff like this should not at all take 5 different CRTs but now I see why it does

 

[Shadyboi0]

Damn.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I did, it was bad, moving on, direct insults are report-worthy, cut it out unless you don't want a say anymore in general.

Cool, that really doesn't change the effect BP is inconsistent, I mean, case and point, you're arguing a stated value, and BP, and Kaioken all contradict, probably a red flag in and of itself.


Do it again dog and you're getting reported.

Do I look like I give a flying ****? You can suck the thickest part of my dick. I barely log in this Circus anymore.

Your point is disingenuous in it's core. We have a less reliable source claiming a multiplier that is not even directly stated, and you're gonna use it as evidence of Kaioken and BP being inconsistent when it's a reliable directly stated multiplier? No, it's a counter-evidence for the assumed multiplier in question, it's not evidence for either side.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

"unreliable sources for me but not for thee"

 

[Chariot190]

Okay there is some extremely disingenuous argumentation going on here we are literally throwing out the most consistent multipliers within the verse for some made-up "inconsistency" and because we should apparently be thankful we get to use a grand total of 3 (kaioken) multipliers (for upscaling only) because other verses with stated multipliers have it worse on here as if that isnt the fault of the Wiki staff being overtly pedantic as opposed to a verse's fault

at this point Im just tempted to create my own CRT with actual sensible scaling once the minimum time limit of a repeated CRT passes by because scaling stuff like this should not at all take 5 different CRTs but now I see why it does

You realize the CRT is actually about how Raditz and friends get hyperinflated to a blatantly inconsistent degree not corroborated by even one feat or statement, due to taking like 10+ multipliers, fraction statements, and more, stacking them one by one, to get a very wild yield that doesn't align, with an example even showing how if you wanted, you can take it even further, and get objectively bullshit values for even lower dudes.

Going off about kaioken, isn't relevant, KK could be 100% accurate, or not, it dont matter.

 

[Shadyboi0]

That's crazy.

 

[Arkenis]

Do I look like I give a flying ****? You can suck the thickest part of my dick. I barely log in this Circus anymore.

Your point is disingenuous in it's core. We have a less reliable source claiming a multiplier that is not even directly stated, and you're gonna use it as evidence of Kaioken and BP being inconsistent when it's a reliable directly stated multiplier? No, it's a counter-evidence for the assumed multiplier in question, it's not evidence for either side.

At times like these, its better to just go and cool off. You have no reason letting Vsbw get to you like this.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

You realize the CRT is actually about how Raditz and friends get hyperinflated to a blatantly inconsistent degree not corroborated by even one feat or statement, due to taking like 10+ multipliers, fraction statements, and more, stacking them one by one, to get a very wild yield that doesn't align, with an example even showing how if you wanted, you can take it even further, and get objectively bullshit values for even lower dudes.

Going off about kaioken, isn't relevant, KK could be 100% accurate, or not, it dont matter.

No my point is all about not scaling KKx2 Goku and possibly base Goku below where he should be if you wanna discard BoZ 1/20th power statement be my guest but your justification is flawed because even without that their rating being any higher than 29.6 Exatons (the energy to vaporize a moon) would be unsupported by any feats or statements so your argument just doesnt work regardless of what you apply it to

if no feats or statements are your only gripe then anyone weaker than KKx3 Goku and Vegeta cant be higher than 29.6 Exatons and no one below first form Frieza can be higher than 1.32 Yottatons

 

[Chariot190]

Your point is disingenuous in it's core.

My point, is that shit's kinda wacky and contradictory, and arguing PL's, inconsistent as they are, we abide by, ain't exactly a good claim to make. You just kinda went off about Zarbon and KK.

We have a less reliable source claiming a multiplier that is not even directly stated,

Several times, is in fact, a direct statement.

and you're gonna use it as evidence of Kaioken and BP being inconsistent when it's a reliable directly stated multiplier?

I mean, no, I'm not, you're being extremely presumptuous and attacking everyone, for things never even said.

No, it's a counter-evidence for the assumed multiplier in question, it's not evidence for either side.

It wouldn't be assumed, the statement is flat out. It is simply inconsistent, but so is 90% of the stuff in this scaling chain so what else is new?

No my point is all about not scaling KKx2 Goku and possibly base Goku below where he should be if you wanna discard BoZ 1/20th power statement be my guest but your justification is flawed because even without that their rating being any higher than 29.6 Exatons (the energy to vaporize a moon) would be unsupported by any feats or statements so your argument just doesnt work regardless of what you apply it to

I mean, yeah sure, if ya wanna argue they should cap at moon be my guest. We have "higher" and "at least" for good reason. Would lead nicely into Vegeta's planet stuff as well.

if no feats or statements are your only gripe then anyone weaker than KKx3 Goku and Vegeta cant be higher than 29.6 Exatons and no one below first form Frieza can be higher than 1.32 Yottatons

You're arguing like I'd have issue with that, as said "higher" and "at least" exist. We can do basic A>B>C scaling instead based on feats and showings.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I mean, yeah sure, if ya wanna argue they should cap at moon be my guest. We have "higher" and "at least" for good reason. Would lead nicely into Vegeta's planet stuff as well.

You're arguing like I'd have issue with that, as said "higher" and "at least" exist. We can do basic A>B>C scaling instead based on feats and showings.

So you just admitted your reasoning of "no feats or statements" is just a bunch of hot air arbitrarily placed on them to limit them from reaching certain values for who knows what reason? aight then no point in engaging further lol

 

[Chariot190]

So you just admitted your reasoning of "no feats or statements" is just a bunch of hot air arbitrarily placed on them to limit them from reaching certain values for who knows what reason? aight then no point in engaging further lol

Newsflash, but, you do know in order for multipliers, fraction statements, and more, to be used, especially to this degree, it has to be corroborated yes? Wiki standards.

If a random 9-B, whose feats and actual direct scaling all but place him there, had a 5x statement, and he fought a dude with a 4x statement, and he was 1/18th of this dude, who is 1/1000th this other dude, who is 8x stronger after training and fought another dude who in turn has a 80x statement, and he's 1/14th this other dude at 3% power and at 100% he fights this other dude, who has a 100x statement, and then he blows up the universe.

Is that 9-B actually 9-B, or 3-B?

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Unweighted Goku is >=1/20th as strong as his Saiyan Saga self, Piccolo is comparable to him - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Gohan with a power level of 1,307 is 3x as strong as Goku - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Raditz has a slightly higher power level of 1,500 and can tank an unexpected head-but from this Gohan. Piccolo kills both Raditz and Goku with his Special Beam Cannon - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an Oozaru, Gohan and Raditz are 10x stronger - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Saiyan saga
Krillin's power level was 1.19x that of Raditz and his scattering bullet killed 3 roughly Raditz-level saibamen - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level))

Gohan is superior to Krillin - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an Oozaru he's 10x stronger - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Base Goku scales to 50% of his Kaioken..... 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• Kaioken gives him a power level of 16,000, 1.6x above a power level of 10,000 with a PL of 16,000 - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)
• Kaioken x3 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Kaioken x4 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Nappa was close to base Goku, but weaker - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an oozaru - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Base Vegeta with a PL of 18,000 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

• Vegeta's Garlick Gun - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level) (matched a KKx3 Kamehameha)
• As an Oozaru, he's equal to Namek Saga Kkx2 pre zenkai Goku's 180,000 PL -1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Namek Saga​

First Form Frieza casually destroyed Planet Vegeta, has a Battle Power of 530,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Base Goku is 1/10th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self -1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

• Kaio-ken Goku is 1/5th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self with a power level of 180,000-1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Kaio-ken x10 Goku has a Battle Power of 900,000 , which is greater than First Form Frieza's - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Frieza Saga​

Post-King Kai training Piccolo is 1/5th weaker than himself before fusing with Nail, which puts his power level at roughly 200,000, above Kaioken X2 Goku - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Second Form Frieza is 2x First Form, Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) and Gohan (mad) are comparable to him -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Third Form Frieza is superior, final zenkai-boost Vegeta surpassed him - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Post Zenkai Base Goku surpassed them all with a PL of 3,000,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

• Kaio-ken x10 Goku - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• Kaio-ken x20 Goku -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• Super Saiyan Goku is 50x base -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Final Form Frieza at 50% is superior to a Kaio-ken x20 kamehameha -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

• Final Form Frieza at 100% - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
  ​

Here yall go the newest and best AP blog ever with 0 multipliers and only feats and statements

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think anyone suggested axing all multipliers completely.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Looks good

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I don't think anyone suggested axing all multipliers completely.

I mean, yeah sure, if ya wanna argue they should cap at moon be my guest. We have "higher" and "at least" for good reason. Would lead nicely into Vegeta's planet stuff as well.

You're arguing like I'd have issue with that, as said "higher" and "at least" exist. We can do basic A>B>C scaling instead based on feats and showings.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Looks good

true we should actually be worshipping the VSBW Gods for even allowing us mere mortals to use statements. Clearly we are taking a mile after being offered an inch here

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Newsflash, but, you do know in order for multipliers, fraction statements, and more, to be used, especially to this degree, it has to be corroborated yes? Wiki standards.

If a random 9-B, whose feats and actual direct scaling all but place him there, had a 5x statement, and he fought a dude with a 4x statement, and he was 1/18th of this dude, who is 1/1000th this other dude, who is 8x stronger after training and fought another dude who in turn has a 80x statement, and he's 1/14th this other dude at 3% power and at 100% he fights this other dude, who has a 100x statement, and then he blows up the universe.

Is that 9-B actually 9-B, or 3-B?

so true! So when's your DBS downgrade thread downgrading everyone else to 4-B coming?

 

[Veronica]

Raditz was running away from a moon level attack. Him being large planet level never made sense

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Raditz was running away from a moon level attack. Him being large planet level never made sense

I really dont wanna hear it from you miss "base goku universal rule is wrong"

 

[Chariot190]

Unweighted Goku is >=1/20th as strong as his Saiyan Saga self, Piccolo is comparable to him - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Gohan with a power level of 1,307 is 3x as strong as Goku - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Raditz has a slightly higher power level of 1,500 and can tank an unexpected head-but from this Gohan. Piccolo kills both Raditz and Goku with his Special Beam Cannon - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an Oozaru, Gohan and Raditz are 10x stronger - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Saiyan saga
Krillin's power level was 1.19x that of Raditz and his scattering bullet killed 3 roughly Raditz-level saibamen - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level))

Gohan is superior to Krillin - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an Oozaru he's 10x stronger - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Base Goku scales to 50% of his Kaioken..... 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• Kaioken gives him a power level of 16,000, 1.6x above a power level of 10,000 with a PL of 16,000 - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)
• Kaioken x3 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Kaioken x4 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Nappa was close to base Goku, but weaker - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an oozaru - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Base Vegeta with a PL of 18,000 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

• Vegeta's Garlick Gun - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level) (matched a KKx3 Kamehameha)
• As an Oozaru, he's equal to Namek Saga Kkx2 pre zenkai Goku's 180,000 PL -1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Namek Saga​

First Form Frieza casually destroyed Planet Vegeta, has a Battle Power of 530,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Base Goku is 1/10th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self -1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

• Kaio-ken Goku is 1/5th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self with a power level of 180,000-1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Kaio-ken x10 Goku has a Battle Power of 900,000 , which is greater than First Form Frieza's - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Frieza Saga​

Post-King Kai training Piccolo is 1/5th weaker than himself before fusing with Nail, which puts his power level at roughly 200,000, above Kaioken X2 Goku - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Second Form Frieza is 2x First Form, Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) and Gohan (mad) are comparable to him -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Third Form Frieza is superior, final zenkai-boost Vegeta surpassed him - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Post Zenkai Base Goku surpassed them all with a PL of 3,000,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

• Kaio-ken x10 Goku - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• Kaio-ken x20 Goku -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• Super Saiyan Goku is 50x base -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Final Form Frieza at 50% is superior to a Kaio-ken x20 kamehameha -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

• Final Form Frieza at 100% - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)​

Here yall go the newest and best AP blog ever with 0 multipliers and only feats and statements

Dog, nobody said ditch them all, just, ya know, when you stack like 50 at once and get blatantly bullshit results, that's when maybe tone it down a notch, especially with downscaling.

Upscaling is less complicated because eventually, at least in DB's case, they do whip out a feat to corroborate it, like take the dumb as shit amount of multipliers between Frieza and Cell, and then Cell whips out 4-B and ok the vision is there those jumps fit between (but even that isn't perfect).

Backscaling tho? Man, reverse backscale off Cell, down to Raditz, ya could if ya really wanted to. Is 4-C Raditz fine? 4-C early DB? Etc. Hell, take it a step further, downscale from Super down to Raditz, 3-B Raditz?

so true! So when's your DBS downgrade thread downgrading everyone else to 4-B coming?

Why? Goku has uni feat, it scales to his base, goes from there.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Raditz was running away from a moon level attack. Him being large planet level never made sense

Only time I'll probably ever agree with you

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Dog, nobody said ditch them all,

I mean, yeah sure, if ya wanna argue they should cap at moon be my guest. We have "higher" and "at least" for good reason. Would lead nicely into Vegeta's planet stuff as well.

You're arguing like I'd have issue with that, as said "higher" and "at least" exist. We can do basic A>B>C scaling instead based on feats and showings.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah? Your sarcastic post didn't even factor in A>B>C scaling, "at least", "higher", or standalone consistent jumps.

Just like, do it how every verse does it, it ain't complex. You're straw manning the shit out of what's actually being argued and taking it to the extreme. Being fair and consistent isn't always "biggest number" or "lowest number" lad.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I must ask that both sides calm down, if they don't like the other, but there is no need for such a thing.

 

[omegabronic]

Unweighted Goku is >=1/20th as strong as his Saiyan Saga self, Piccolo is comparable to him - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Gohan with a power level of 1,307 is 3x as strong as Goku - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Raditz has a slightly higher power level of 1,500 and can tank an unexpected head-but from this Gohan. Piccolo kills both Raditz and Goku with his Special Beam Cannon - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an Oozaru, Gohan and Raditz are 10x stronger - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Saiyan saga
Krillin's power level was 1.19x that of Raditz and his scattering bullet killed 3 roughly Raditz-level saibamen - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level))

Gohan is superior to Krillin - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an Oozaru he's 10x stronger - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Base Goku scales to 50% of his Kaioken..... 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• Kaioken gives him a power level of 16,000, 1.6x above a power level of 10,000 with a PL of 16,000 - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)
• Kaioken x3 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Kaioken x4 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Nappa was close to base Goku, but weaker - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an oozaru - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Base Vegeta with a PL of 18,000 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

• Vegeta's Garlick Gun - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level) (matched a KKx3 Kamehameha)
• As an Oozaru, he's equal to Namek Saga Kkx2 pre zenkai Goku's 180,000 PL -1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Namek Saga​

First Form Frieza casually destroyed Planet Vegeta, has a Battle Power of 530,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Base Goku is 1/10th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self -1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

• Kaio-ken Goku is 1/5th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self with a power level of 180,000-1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Kaio-ken x10 Goku has a Battle Power of 900,000 , which is greater than First Form Frieza's - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Frieza Saga​

Post-King Kai training Piccolo is 1/5th weaker than himself before fusing with Nail, which puts his power level at roughly 200,000, above Kaioken X2 Goku - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Second Form Frieza is 2x First Form, Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) and Gohan (mad) are comparable to him -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Third Form Frieza is superior, final zenkai-boost Vegeta surpassed him - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Post Zenkai Base Goku surpassed them all with a PL of 3,000,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

• Kaio-ken x10 Goku - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• Kaio-ken x20 Goku -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• Super Saiyan Goku is 50x base -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Final Form Frieza at 50% is superior to a Kaio-ken x20 kamehameha -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

• Final Form Frieza at 100% - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)​

Here yall go the newest and best AP blog ever with 0 multipliers and only feats and statements

First Form Freeza is Dwarf Star level, not Small Star level

 

[Ryzen7900X]

First Form Freeza is Dwarf Star level, not Small Star level

the calc has been pretty much accepted but if that was all you got out of it you missed the point of me posting that

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Well, i don't understand what's going on, but would like to hear from Op how this would change the scale of our characters?

 

[omegabronic]

the calc has been pretty much accepted but if that was all you got out of it you missed the point of me posting that

Not in a thread for it to be used, neither did the GBE calc

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Yeah? Your sarcastic post didn't even factor in A>B>C scaling, "at least", "higher", or standalone consistent jumps.

doesnt change the values. that scaling is inherently based on transitive scaling anyway so it literally changes nothing

Just like, do it how every verse does it, it ain't complex.

this again? Okay then other verses get upgraded with far less evidence. Give me 6D DBH now

You're straw manning the shit out of what's actually being argued and taking it to the extreme.

no your argument really is just that bad and I literally quoted what you wrote how the hell is it a strawman when it is your EXACT message?? Also i'm strawmanning?? You wanna see a strawman? you got it!

If a random 9-B, whose feats and actual direct scaling all but place him there, had a 5x statement, and he fought a dude with a 4x statement, and he was 1/18th of this dude, who is 1/1000th this other dude, who is 8x stronger after training and fought another dude who in turn has a 80x statement, and he's 1/14th this other dude at 3% power and at 100% he fights this other dude, who has a 100x statement, and then he blows up the universe.

want another? alright!

Backscaling tho? Man, reverse backscale off Cell, down to Raditz, ya could if ya really wanted to. Is 4-C Raditz fine? 4-C early DB? Etc. Hell, take it a step further, downscale from Super down to Raditz, 3-B Raditz?

Being fair and consistent isn't always "biggest number" or "lowest number" lad.

except you're being neither fair nor consistent by your own admission you're placing an arbitrary limit on where multipliers can be used and why and when I ask the reason your reason just boils down to "no feats and statements" which prompts me to suggest that we scale everyone below vegeta to moon level and everyone below first form frieza to planet level which you literally said was fine and a "nice way" dont talk to me about being fair

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Not in a thread for it to be used, neither did the GBE calc

omega I'm not in a mood to debate this with you read the thread it was proposed in for Heaven's sake that is NOT the point of that stupid AP blog anyway and Jaakor posted it before I did so talk to him not me

 

[Baken384]

Unweighted Goku is >=1/20th as strong as his Saiyan Saga self, Piccolo is comparable to him - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Gohan with a power level of 1,307 is 3x as strong as Goku - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Raditz has a slightly higher power level of 1,500 and can tank an unexpected head-but from this Gohan. Piccolo kills both Raditz and Goku with his Special Beam Cannon - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an Oozaru, Gohan and Raditz are 10x stronger - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Saiyan saga
Krillin's power level was 1.19x that of Raditz and his scattering bullet killed 3 roughly Raditz-level saibamen - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level))

Gohan is superior to Krillin - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an Oozaru he's 10x stronger - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Base Goku scales to 50% of his Kaioken..... 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• Kaioken gives him a power level of 16,000, 1.6x above a power level of 10,000 with a PL of 16,000 - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)
• Kaioken x3 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Kaioken x4 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Nappa was close to base Goku, but weaker - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

• As an oozaru - 29.6 Exatons (Moon level)

Base Vegeta with a PL of 18,000 - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

• Vegeta's Garlick Gun - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level) (matched a KKx3 Kamehameha)
• As an Oozaru, he's equal to Namek Saga Kkx2 pre zenkai Goku's 180,000 PL -1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Namek Saga​

First Form Frieza casually destroyed Planet Vegeta, has a Battle Power of 530,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Base Goku is 1/10th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self -1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

• Kaio-ken Goku is 1/5th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self with a power level of 180,000-1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
• Kaio-ken x10 Goku has a Battle Power of 900,000 , which is greater than First Form Frieza's - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Frieza Saga​

Post-King Kai training Piccolo is 1/5th weaker than himself before fusing with Nail, which puts his power level at roughly 200,000, above Kaioken X2 Goku - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)

Second Form Frieza is 2x First Form, Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) and Gohan (mad) are comparable to him -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Third Form Frieza is superior, final zenkai-boost Vegeta surpassed him - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Post Zenkai Base Goku surpassed them all with a PL of 3,000,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

• Kaio-ken x10 Goku - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• Kaio-ken x20 Goku -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• Super Saiyan Goku is 50x base -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Final Form Frieza at 50% is superior to a Kaio-ken x20 kamehameha -14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

• Final Form Frieza at 100% - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)​

Here yall go the newest and best AP blog ever with 0 multipliers and only feats and statements

Dragon Ball without wank, agree with this

 

[Chariot190]

doesnt change the values. that scaling is inherently based on transitive scaling anyway so it literally changes nothing

It would, if it's inconsistent, it's inconsistent and gets tossed.

this again? Okay then other verses get upgraded with far less evidence. Give me 6D DBH now

Yes, wiki standards, extraordinary multipliers, especially in stacks, require extraordinary evidence, and lad, you realize DBZ is MFTL+++, via a rel feat. Literally, the most generous stat given on the entire wiki.
DBZ gets away with the absolute extreme my dude.

no your argument really is just that bad and I literally quoted what you wrote how the hell is it a strawman when it is your EXACT message??

My argument is wiki standards dog, it doesn't check out.
"If a random 9-B, whose feats and actual direct scaling all but place him there, had a 5x statement, and he fought a dude with a 4x statement, and he was 1/18th of this dude, who is 1/1000th this other dude, who is 8x stronger after training and fought another dude who in turn has a 80x statement, and he's 1/14th this other dude at 3% power and at 100% he fights this other dude, who has a 100x statement, and then he blows up the universe."

This, is exactly what's happening. And ****, you could take it further, why stop at Frieza? Why not start the downscaling from Cell or even DBS? You could, is 3-B Raditz fine because "the multipliers ok in a vacuum"? of course not, it's blatantly not substantiated by anything and blatantly doesnt align with feats that take effort at that point.

And yes, strawman, me saying "yeah id be ok if we just did basic upscaling and A>B>C", isn't the same as me saying "hey let's treat them identically to the calced value".

except you're being neither fair nor consistent by your own admission you're placing an arbitrary limit on where multipliers can be used and why and when I ask the reason your reason just boils down to "no feats and statements"

"Raditz is secretly 100000x above Frieza's supernova because we can downscale him off Cell".

Yes, imagine that, stacking two dozen multi and fractions, getting an unfounded, contradictory, not backed by anything value, is going to be scrutinized and asked if consistent.

Like, as op mentioned, you can do the same shit to early DB. Is Goku who was floored by High 8-C attacks, 5-A now too?

which prompts me to suggest that we scale everyone below vegeta to moon level and everyone below first form frieza to planet level which you literally said was fine and a "nice way"

Yeah to a degree, Raditz would probably edge into planet lv, Piccolo's moon bust is akin to that. Which, actually fits with the progression anyway, Roshi > Sup Kamehameha > Early Z Piccolo, etc.

Like man, idk what to tell you, but taking a hundred distinct statements, multipliers, gaps, lining them all up and acting as if that shit will perfectly check out, in reverse no less, is unrealistic. It simply doesn't.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Not gonna bother reading it honestly this isnt worth my time you're the kind of stonewall even a tier 0 character cant break
I'm disengaging with this thread idgaf where it goes at this point

 

[Veronica]

Great Ape Goku with a PL of 100, physical strength is described as "easily able to pulverize a 30 inch thick steel wall", but if he used Kaioken his AP would be moon level...

 

[RenderGK]

I disagree.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I always thought that normal humans being High 6-A in DB made sense

 

[Shadyboi0]

Chariot makes sense.