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Regarding Cell being a Solar System buster...

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SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

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Well as you all may already know Lord Kavpeny's computer has crashed and as he is unable to create the threads for the issues regarding DBZ I'll shall be doing them in his stead.

This thread is for discussing the very apparent issues regarding whether Cell is a Solar System Buster or not as mentioned in this thread.

The community will be revising this issue from scratch. So kindly present your arguments regarding this issue here on this thread, including the references and the context.

Do remember, while everyone will keep an open mind regarding the statistics, irrational fanboyism will get you banned, Eg: Buu being Multiversal.

Also everyone is expected to calmly discuss the changes that are to be made and to not be unreasonable.

Also I should mention that backwards calculation is NOT allowed, eg: "Given how strong Beerus is, Cell must be at least Solar System level". Why it's not allowed well I won't go into that much but it's simply because Beerus' strength has no effect on Cell's strength. Beerus being universal doesn't mean that Cell is Solar System Level it simply means he's much much stronger than him and is on a whole new level as compared to the previous antagonists in the series.

Any posts here that uses logic like this will be deleted. And everyone is also expected to not derail the thread away from the main topic.

Current stance on the issue: Cell was previously considered as not being Solar System Level as such it (Cell being Solar System Level) currently isn't accepted.

Revised stance on the issue: Undetermined.

Discuss!
 
Well, given that DBZ Kai is referenced in Dragon Ball Super, this seems to be the current canon that we should work from. Since Buu destroyed a galaxy in this series, I have no problems whatsoever seeing Cell as a solar system buster and scaling other characters from that.
 
I shall present my arguments now, though I will be using guidebooks. So if that's not allowed, please disregard any points involving it.

1. The statement that Kav thought disproved Cell being Solar System Level (Beerus stating base Goku was weaker than Frieza) seems to not hold water after Dragon Ball Super. Mainly because he said Goku would have a hard time winning as a Super Saiyan, which would require Goku to get weaker from the Namek Saga to four years after the Buu Saga, which just doesn't make any sense as Goku trained constantly for over a decade.

2. This statement is backed up by various guidebooks, including Daizenshuu, the Legend of Manga guide and the official Dragon Ball Kai website.

3. The statement is not phrased in a way that makes it sound like hyperbole. It would be if it was something like "my Kamehameha rivals the Gods", but not "I've gathered enough Ki not only to destroy the planet, but the whole solar system!".

4. At no point is this statement contradicted by stronger characters showing a limit below Solar System Level.

5. Cell has no reason to lie with this. While he is arrogant, he has only lied when it worked to his advantage, such as tricking Vegeta into letting him reach his Perfect Form. Furthermore, if Cell really was lying, the Z-Fighters would have pointed it out that he was, considering their ability to sense ki.

So all in all, I think Super Perfect Cell is Solar System Level.
 
@Sigma based on what? we can't be that specific

and can someone tell me what episode in DBS that Kai is referenced? thanks

But Yeah I agree with SPC being Solar system level
 
@Sigma Hmm i was under the assumption Namek Saga Frieza was Small star, could be wrong though

We really need to have Frieza's Namek Stats and the resurrection of F stats On Frieza's page
 
The Everlasting said:
I shall present my arguments now, though I will be using guidebooks. So if that's not allowed, please disregard any points involving it.
1. The statement that Kav thought disproved Cell being Solar System Level (Beerus stating base Goku was weaker than Frieza) seems to not hold water after Dragon Ball Super. Mainly because he said Goku would have a hard time winning as a Super Saiyan, which would require Goku to get weaker from the Namek Saga to four years after the Buu Saga, which just doesn't make any sense as Goku trained constantly for over a decade.

2. This statement is backed up by various guidebooks, including Daizenshuu, the Legend of Manga guide and the official Dragon Ball Kai website.

3. The statement is not phrased in a way that makes it sound like hyperbole. It would be if it was something like "my Kamehameha rivals the Gods", but not "I've gathered enough Ki not only to destroy the planet, but the whole solar system!".

4. At no point is this statement contradicted by stronger characters showing a limit below Solar System Level.

5. Cell has no reason to lie with this. While he is arrogant, he has only lied when it worked to his advantage, such as tricking Vegeta into letting him reach his Perfect Form. Furthermore, if Cell really was lying, the Z-Fighters would have pointed it out that he was, considering their ability to sense ki.

So all in all, I think Super Perfect Cell is Solar System Level.
Click to expand...
Beerus stating that SSJ Goku will have a hard time fighting Freeza is only a mistranslation by the fansubs.


About the topic.I really believe that Cell is Solar System buster.Theres absoloutly no reason Cell would lie because he was already about to kill Gohan who just stand there doing nothing also you can literaly see the cities being destroyed and people screaming earthquake.
 
I see no problem with Super Perfect Cell being Solar System level, but not Solar System+, though. He's definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. The guides seem to support this.

However, I do take issue with Buu being a high 4-A due to the galaxy feat in Kai. It is inconsistent and would mean Buu is thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times stronger than Cell, which is more than a little bit of a stretch. It should be taken simply as visual representation of his destruction, but by scaling from other characters, he should still be within 4-B.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I see no problem with Super Perfect Cell being Solar System level, but not Solar System+, though. He's definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. The guides seem to support this.
However, I do take issue with Buu being a high 4-A due to the galaxy feat in Kai. It is inconsistent and would mean Buu is thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times stronger than Cell, which is more than a little bit of a stretch. It should be takes simply as visual representation of his destruction, but by scaling from other characters, he should still be within 4-B.
Click to expand...
or simply put buuhan and buutenks at 4-B+, majin buu and kid buu at 4-B.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I see no problem with Super Perfect Cell being Solar System level, but not Solar System+, though. He's definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. The guides seem to support this.
However, I do take issue with Buu being a high 4-A due to the galaxy feat in Kai. It is inconsistent and would mean Buu is thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times stronger than Cell, which is more than a little bit of a stretch. It should be takes simply as visual representation of his destruction, but by scaling from other characters, he should still be within 4-B.
Click to expand...
I agree, I think it should be like this IMO

Goku: Large star level (base) | Large star level+ (MSSJ) | Solar system level (MSSJ Boo Saga) | Solar system level+ (SSJ2 & SSJ3)

Gohan: Large star level (Base) | Large star level+ (MSSJ) | Solar System level+ (FP SSJ2) | Solar system level (arm injured) | Large Star level+ to low solar system level (Weaker) | Solar System level+ (Chou)

Gotenks: Large star level+ | Solar system level+ (SSJ1-3)

Boo: Solar system level+ | Solar system level+ (Super Boo and Bootenks) | High solar system level (Boohan)

Would SSJ Veggeto be low 4-A? Boohan is dozens of times above SSJ3 Goku. Base Veggeto >= Boohan.
 
I have no problem with Buu being High 4-A myself. The feat is explicit and impossible to argue with. There is an even greater jump in power up to Universe level after the Buu arc, so I think that we should consider the enormous power differences as creative license, but definitely not disregard them.

Anyway, did Buu destroy the galaxy in a single strike or somewhat gradually? The former is 3-C, and the latter is High 4-A.
 
Antvasima said:
I have no problem with Buu being High 4-A myself. The feat is explicit and impossible to argue with. There is an even greater jump in power up to Universe level after the Buu arc, so I think that we should consider the enormous power differences as creative license, but definitely not disregard them.
Anyway, did Buu destroy the galaxy in a single strike or somewhat gradually? The former is 3-C, and the latter is High 4-A.
Click to expand...
It was overtime, so high 4-A, but I think normal 4-A is better IMO.
 
Also, if Cell was powerful enough to destroy a solar system even before his final (regenerated with much greater power) enhancement, we might want to distinguish his final state with solar system level+. Technically there is no such category, but it might be a good idea in this case to explain that he turned stronger to the visitors.
 
i think an overtime galaxy busting would be 4-A, but the strongest forms of buu and vegito could be considered to be high 4-A (since they are a LOT stronger than kid buu)
 
Why is cell a solar system buster?

That's simple. Saiyan saga Vegeta was the very first plant buster we met in the show. His pwoer was 18 000. Let's remind this: 100% final form frieza = 120 000, that is to say nearly 7000 times stronger than vegeta.


Then there's an estimation of characters' power compared to namek frieza (estimation yes ... but it's realistic). Let's imagine Frieza = 1. Then we have this:


Namek frieza = 1

Mech frieza = 2 (he said himself he was far stronger than he was on Namek)

Future trunks SSJ = 6 (easily 3 time stronger: managed to one shot mecha Frieza)

Goku SSJ = 15 at least (is a lot stronger than Trunks because he can block Trunks' sword using only one of his finger. Let's remember the same sword managed to cute mecha Frieza's whole body in half while it can't even damage Goku's finger).

android 17, 18 and Piccolo fused with Kami (same level) = 45 (android 18 defeated Vegeta SSJ with ease and she most likely haven't used her full power, android 17 has the same level than Piccolo. And Vegeta SSJ himself admitted Piccolo was a lot stronger than him)

Imperfect cell (after absorption of many humans) = 90 (owned both piccolo and android 17 in the same time)

Semi perfect cell = 180 (can toy with android 16 who had the same level than him while in his imperfect form)

Vegeta SSJ (after training in the hyperbolic time chamber) = 360 (is toying with semi perfect cell)

Goku SSJ (after training in the hyperbolic time chamber) = 450 (he isn't twice stronger than Vegeta, however he is still strong enough to impress Vegeta, Trunks or Piccolo while he is fighting perfect cell)

Gohan (teen) SSJ = 475 (he wasn't impressed by what Goku did during the fight against perfect cell and when Goku asked him if he could fight at the same rhythm than him and Cell and was positive about this + Goku himself was sure Gohan was better than him by now).

Perfect cell = 600 (he wasn't using his full power against Goku or Gohan. He used it when he faced teen Gohan SSJ2. But it was useless: Gohan was too strong).

Gohan (teen) SSJ2 = 950 (twice stronger than SSJ).

Super perfect cell = 1000 (is slightly stronger than Gohan in 1 vs 1. but lost because Vegeta attacked him in his back).


For thos who are are thinking "hey! Are you crazy? Cell being 1000 time stronger than namek frieza is impossible! This number is too huge". I'd like to remind them this:

The last boss of the saiyan saga was vegeta. And he was like 7 000 times weaker than the last boss of the frieza saga. So making cell 1000 times stronger than namek frieza doesn't sound that crazy now don't you think.

Also, let's not forget this: Supreme kai is stronger than piccolo fused with kami (to the point Piccolo feared to fight him and gave up). He also stated he could "kill Frieza with one punch". But he is a joke compared to Goku, Vegeta or Gohan SSJ.

So for me it's clear super perfect cell is a solar system buster. Let's not forget he is most lilely several millions of time stronger than saiyan saga vegeta who was already a planet buster.


And besides, even without this, Cell said he could and that's useless for him to lie about this. Because when someone is bluffing, it's said explicitely (example: what vegeta did to dr Gero. He made him believe he was still strong enough to fight him, even after a huge part of his energy was absorbed by android 19). Also in all his interviews Toriyama never contradicted what Cell said about him being able to blow away the entire solar system. He even said in an interview than Gohan's kamehameha was stronger than Cell's kamehameha who was able to blow away the entire solar system.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I see no problem with Super Perfect Cell being Solar System level, but not Solar System+, though. He's definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. The guides seem to support this.
However, I do take issue with Buu being a high 4-A due to the galaxy feat in Kai. It is inconsistent and would mean Buu is thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times stronger than Cell, which is more than a little bit of a stretch. It should be taken simply as visual representation of his destruction, but by scaling from other characters, he should still be within 4-B.
Click to expand...
I would Disagree @Bold, I think it's entirely possible

1. because DBZ powerlevels are not Linear

2. look what happened in BoG, a raged SSJ2 Vegeta could push Beerus to use 10% of his power, with Beerus' maximum likely being universal, while his standard SSJ2 form got curbed by Kid Buu. this would put Vegeta some stupid multiplier amount above his standard SSJ2 form, much more than any SSJ Transformation multiplier has ever been shown/known. I don't think it's crazy that Buu could be galaxy level
 
So, how about Perfect Cell as Solar System level, Super Perfect Cell as Solar System level+ (or High Solar System level, as it is more consistent), Fat Buu, Kid Buu and possibly Super Buu as Multi-Solar System level, and Buuhan as High Multi-Solar System level? Would this be acceptable?

We still have to hammer out where to scale Cell's previous forms and all of the other characters in the Cell and Buu sagas though.
 
Antvasima said:
So, how about Perfect Cell as Solar System level, Super Perfect Cell as Solar System level+, Fat Buu, Kid Buu and possibly Super Buu as Multi-Solar System level, and Buuhan as High Multi-Solar System level? Would this be acceptable?
We still have to hammer out where to scale Cell's previous forms and all of the other characters in the Cell and Buu sagas though,
Click to expand...
Androids: Small star level

Android 16: Small star level+

Cell: Small star level | small star level+ | star level+ | large star level+ (Cell vs MSSJ Goku) | Solar system level (100%) | Solar system level+ (SPC)

Goku: Large star level (base) | large star level+ (MSSJ) | multi solar system (base) | multi solar system level+ (SSJ1-3)
 
Well, to keep things simple, we should probably just focus on Goku's (and other recurring characters') maximum power level for each storyline.
 
K then

Freeza Saga: Large planet level

Android Saga: Parge planet level+

Cell Saga: Large star level+

Boo Saga: Multi Solar System level+
 
I would probably place him a bit higher than that. He was able to almost match Perfect Cell after all, so the power difference should have been small. Also, shouldn't he have been at least small star level during the Androids saga, and isn't it better to just call all of it the Cell saga instead??
 
Antvasima said:
I would probably place him a bit higher than that. He was able to almost match Perfect Cell after all, so the power difference should have been small. Also, shouldn't he have been at least small star level during the Androids saga, and isn't it better to just call all of it the Cell saga instead??
Click to expand...
Yeah

Do you think Veggeto is a low 3-C though?
 
Antvasima said:
So, how about Perfect Cell as Solar System level, Super Perfect Cell as Solar System level+ (or High Solar System level, as it is more consistent), Fat Buu, Kid Buu and possibly Super Buu as Multi-Solar System level, and Buuhan as High Multi-Solar System level? Would this be acceptable?
We still have to hammer out where to scale Cell's previous forms and all of the other characters in the Cell and Buu sagas though.
Click to expand...
Yep, perfectly fine with that,

Although Placing Vegito might be a bit harder, considering in Kai he Was beating Buuhan in Base Form

EDIT:I also think android Saga pre Cell Games is Star level somewhere
 
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