Removal of God of War's "Type 1 Concept Manipulation"

[Theglassman12]

The force that’s the beginning of what shapes reality like chaos, also nice apples and oranges comparison here.

I’m talking about the soul and nature stuff, explain why that’s not concept hax beyond just “it’s not concept hax” because just saying no is not an answer.

Not an argument, explain why the ascension intro isn’t them making reality.

The scan being literally in Planck’s post that you keep dodging every time we keep talking about this. Address Planck’s post or stop arguing semantics cause you keep dodging all of the points being made.

Now that’s a blatant lie if I ever see one when all you did was address Gaia this entire time and not comment on every single point Planck made that addresses your entire OP, so no you didn’t “address every single scan and new argument” when you keep dodging Planck’s entire post.

Literally what mistakes exactly when this is a common thing across other verses? Again if you think this is a mistake in general then make the standard change for how concept hax is given. Plain and simple.

Don’t talk to me like you know exactly what Ant’s arguing, so stop trying to speak for him and let him speak his own mind on the matter, I asked him that question and not you. If he was agreeing with you then he wouldn’t entertain the idea of having concept hax be reworded to show more explicit showings and would still just outright remove the ability.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not well-informed regarding this issue. I am just trying to help out a bit since I was summoned here via a notification.

I am not certain which way to go currently, but if I have understood correctly, there seem to be examples of affecting some abstract concepts that are inherent to the Greek mythology, which I think would be far more useful and self-evident than examples of affecting souls.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll wait until Grath and Ultima provide their input, as the current back and forth is not addressing any of the issues at hand. Until then I ask that this not be made even lengthier than it already is.

 

[DarkGrath]

So, before anything else, there's two things I should say. One: I have not yet read through everything that has been said in this debate. I'm aware this is not a good standard, but what I am seeing so far is a lot of very trivial debate - things being argued about that come down to misunderstandings or just aren't useful to the actual conclusions on hand. I think it would detract from reaching a conclusion to the thread to build an evaluation around much of this, so unless there is something specific anyone involved wishes me to address, I doubt the later sections of this thread are necessary to grasp the topic. Two: if CM Type 1 is kept, the justifications should be adjusted. They're just confusing and disorganised, and the fact has already been established that several people have already gotten very confused over what the justification on the page is trying to say. I didn't really get it either until I read this thread. If we agree to keep CM Type 1, I would like that to be the next topic of debate, whether on this thread or another one.

That being said:

• The Primordials; specifically their Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Abstract Existence (Type 1) are better detailed here. Frankly, the use of just the image was goofy so better to have it all detailed.
  
  • The Primordials predate the universe and time, given that they existed in the primordial realm of Chaos, with the universe itself having been created by one of them, and would exist long after it is reduced to chaos.
  • Chaos, and the primordial forces within it, predating time is something common across pantheons. The Ginnungagap, or Spark of the World, is the void that preceded Ymir's existence and thus time and space, being where chaos and order meet much like how the order was brought to Chaos by Uranus creating the universe. Sutr himself reminds us that the origin of primordial magic doesn't matter and holds the same nature regardless of mythical origin.
  • They are responsible for creating the entirety of the Greek World and its contents, be it physical or non-physical, being the literal concepts of the aspects of nature that they represent. Primordial forces are also synonymous with magic, which itself is an Independent Universal Concept that predates time and exists throughout all of the reality of a given pantheon.
  • Holding a more fundamental existence relative to their domains than gods, who are aware of all that would ever occur within their domains across time and space and are ever present throughout them, the aspects of the world they embody are merely the physical forms of their true non-physical selves. This I especially feel should've been elaborated better, given some of the aspects (Ourea with Mountains, Ceto with the Oceans), were not as abstract as others (Thanatos with Death, Morpheus with Dreams).

This is the crux of the case for CM Type 1 here, and I think a large portion of the disagreement I've seen has come down to not understanding what the argument here is saying. Planck69 can correct me if I am also misunderstanding it, but for the sake of clarity, I would like to explain what I'm reading here in my own terms.

The Primordials existed before all space and time, in the realm of Chaos. Each of the Primordials are tied to a specific concept within the universe - Uranus the Heavens, Ceto the Oceans, etc - but they all existed prior to any instance of things in their presiding concept in the universe, owing to having existed before the universe. Eventually, the Primordials created the universe and the instances of these concepts with them. Gaia is the Primordial Goddess of the Earth. What the Gaia scan establishes isn't an isolated 'She is the concept of the Earth' statement, but rather, it is establishing that this connection between the Primordials and their associated concept is not simply metaphorical but literal. The scan establishes that she literally is the Earth - it states as much directly - not simply a God who presides over and influences the Earth, for instance. In this way, Gaia preceded the existence of the physical form of the Earth, first existing as its foundation that the Earth was born from with the creation of the universe.

If this is the argument being made, then I should say that I have no trouble with it. It is outright stated, after all, that Gaia is the Earth - not in the sense that she is the physical form of the Earth, explicitly not, but that she is the 'Earth' that the physical form of the Earth is being derived from. You don't need to say the word 'concept' for this to simply be what a concept is, and thus, what we would index as such. And importantly, it is also provably a Type 1 concept, because she exists independently of the instances (or in this case, instance) of the concept, as she existed before the universe and the physical form of the Earth.

So, I have to agree with Planck69 on this matter, and my above suggestion of questioning how better to structure the justifications section stands.

 

[Deagonx]

What the Gaia scan establishes isn't an isolated 'She is the concept of the Earth' statement, but rather, it is establishing that this connection between the Primordials and their associated concept is not simply metaphorical but literal. The scan establishes that she literally is the Earth - it states as much directly - not simply a God who presides over and influences the Earth, for instance. In this way, Gaia preceded the existence of the physical form of the Earth, first existing as its foundation that the Earth was born from with the creation of the universe.

If this is the argument being made, then I should say that I have no trouble with it. It is outright stated, after all, that Gaia is the Earth - not in the sense that she is the physical form of the Earth, explicitly not, but that she is the 'Earth' that the physical form of the Earth is being derived from. You don't need to say the word 'concept' for this to simply be what a concept is, and thus, what we would index as such. And importantly, it is also provably a Type 1 concept, because she exists independently of the instances (or in this case, instance) of the concept, as she existed before the universe and the physical form of the Earth.

I appreciate your assessment on the matter, even if we are at odds here.

I believe you have erred here, because the relationship between Gaia and the Earth may broadly share some qualities with what we would expect of a concept, the qualities are not unique to concepts and she is missing (or would appear not to have) qualities that we'd expect from a concept.

Gaia is the Earth, it is clarified to be her physical form. The first issue with envisioning this as conceptual is that many spiritual beings have a physical form that they can -- in a variety of circumstances -- lose. This is normal even if they aren't literally ideas.

Moreover, if Gaia is a concept we have to determine what she is the concept of. A type 1 concept is usually a universal all-encompassing abstract. Is Gaia merely the concept of the planet Earth specifically? Or is she -- more broadly -- the concept of planets altogether? It would seem that if she is the Earth that she would be Type 3 in the most generous scenario. As if the Earth is her sole object token, her only "particular," then she isn't really a universal governing abstract. If the Earth isn't her only particular, then why would it be her physical form which leaves behind an undeveloped spirit? It is very difficult to imagine that absent a single object token that a universal governing abstract would be rendered an "undeveloped spirit." Something like that would be trivial.

I believe these are significant obstacles. In any case I appreciate you considering the matter deeply.

 

[Deagonx]

Oh, sorry for the double post but I was reminded of something. Kratos killed Gaia. The Earth didn't disappear or anything like that. Wouldn't that be a definitive antifeat?

 

[Planck69]

Oh, sorry for the double post but I was reminded of something. Kratos killed Gaia. The Earth didn't disappear or anything like that. Wouldn't that be a definitive antifeat?

He "killed" her physical body and this isn't really the first time this has happened even in-universe (the novel says her Titan body was destroyed post-Titanomachy) so I dunno what this even means.

 

[Deagonx]

He "killed" her physical body and this isn't really the first time this has happened even in-universe (the novel says her Titan body was destroyed posrlt-Titanomachy) so I dunno what this even means.

You're saying she survived? When was that specified?

Cronos also killed Ouranos and the Heavens didn't suddenly disappear.

 

[Planck69]

You're saying she survived? When was that specified?

Cronos also killed Ouranos and the Heavens didn't suddenly disappear.

It doesn't need to be for the case of Gaia, her body was destroyed before this after the Titan War and she still survived. Her death is never stated to begin with.

The mantle of the Heavens was shifted downwards to Cronos then further until Zeus. Domains are already "seats of metaphysical responsibility" so this isn't an issue either.

 

[DarkGrath]

I believe you have erred here, because the relationship between Gaia and the Earth may broadly share some qualities with what we would expect of a concept, the qualities are not unique to concepts and she is missing (or would appear not to have) qualities that we'd expect from a concept.

To be clear on this - what do you think defines a 'concept'? The crux here is that you seem to think the qualities found are both insufficient to fit the definition of a 'concept' and that there are defining features of a concept that aren't included. Your example vaguely hints to what you might think on this, but I want you to be specific on it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Don't expect me to leave an evaluation on this thread, because I really don't want to go down this rabbit hole, but I'll be keeping track of the votes, at the very least.

Current Tally-

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, CrimsonStarFallen
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus, DarkGrath, Planck69, Theglassman12, KingTempest
Neutral:
Unclear: Antvasima

As per usual, bolded names indicate evaluating staff. If you need your position changed, feel free to let me know

Updated tally

I hesitate to place Ant anywhere definitive just yet, given the ongoing discussion with him

 

[Deagonx]

It doesn't need to be for the case of Gaia, her body was destroyed before this after the Titan War and she still survived. Her death is never stated to begin with.

The climax of the game involves you stabbing the blade of Olympus through Zeus directly into Gaia's heart, which causes her to literally crumble into pieces. This has, seemingly, no catastrophic impact on the Earth. The significance of this event seems completely empty if your stance is that this was merely an avatar or something.

The mantle of the Heavens was shifted downwards until Zeus. Domains are already "seats of metaphysical responsibility" so this isn't an issue either.

You're saying that when Cronos killed Ouranous he became the concept of the Heavens, and then Zeus did the same thing? So are we assuming then that Kratos became the Heavens when he killed Zeus or that the very concept of Heavens was destroyed? If so, is it not strange that all of these concepts dying has seemingly no impact on the Norse world?

To be clear on this - what do you think defines a 'concept'? The crux here is that you seem to think the qualities found are both insufficient to fit the definition of a 'concept' and that there are defining features of a concept that aren't included. Your example vaguely hints to what you might think on this, but I want you to be specific on it.

A concept is an abstract idea, a notion that unifies each concrete instantiation. The "concept" of a planet is the abstract thing that each individual "planet" has or is, that make all of them a "planet." It's the very form of, the very concept of, a planet. You needn't use the word "concept" but there are ways to describe something in such a way that leads us to the same conclusion. For instance, in the case of DC's Endless:

"The Endless? The Endless are merely patterns. The Endless are ideas. The endless are wave functions. The endless are repeating motifs."
"Nobody died. How can you kill an idea? How can you kill the personification of an action?"
"The Endless. Humanoid manifestations of the primal truths of the universe, oversee every aspect of reality."

I recall another comic, it wasn't DC if I remember correctly, but someone met Death and asked a friend who it was, they said "That was death." "Oh, like the goddess of Death?" and was told "No, that was death."

In Gaia's case, the closest we get is her being called "the Earth" and the Earth being described as her physical form. Not the idea of the Earth.

More importantly, doesn't that just seem... a bit incoherent? If Gaia is proposed to be the concept of the Earth itself, her position in the world seems strange. A small small handful of Primordials emerge from absolute nothingness. Among them is Chaos, the Heavens, Darkness, Love, and... specifically the planet Earth? Not planets in general, but Earth. Just Earth. Why would there be an abstract concept of Earth prior to there being an Earth, or nine realms, etc? Why is there no impact on the Earth when she is stabbed through the heart and killed? When Dream of the Endless was trapped away no one could have dreams, and he spoke of the utter nightmare it would be if his captors had successfully trapped Death instead. This is the kind of thing I would expect to see, at least, if we don't have anything direct that describes Gaia or any of the Primordials as abstract ideas.

----------------------

More specifically, the chapter in question doesn't paint Gaia in the best light in terms of being an abstraction. It is more like Gaia's spiritual form comes out of the Earth which is something she's not used to. Formless, lacking in substance, undeveloped spirit. Later:

Gaia stretched and flexed her ghost-limbs, which extended to the core of the world, and now slowly rose to the surface once more as her anger mounted.

He sensed rather than saw Gaia—and other Titans. Gaia lacked substance, reduced only to spirit.

Moreover, these descriptions are very clearly fanciful. For instance, Gaia herself says:

He stopped when he heard Gaia’s voice in his ear. “I am the earth, but Clotho is creation. She is the Loom of Life. To defeat her is to defeat the genesis of all."

And yet... Clotho is not the very idea of creation itself. If we were to take these descriptions at face value it would suggest that killing Clotho just... undoes all of reality itself. Clotho is not literally the "genesis of all." She's not even the oldest Fate! We have good reason not to take such a statement at face value.

I'll also add, if Gaia is meant to be an abstract concept it would be odd for her to be called the Earth in the first place. Concepts are -- almost definitionally -- separate from their instantiations. Dream of the Endless for example is not any specific person's dream on any specific night, he is the unifying governing concept that unites all dreams. If Gaia is the concept of the Earth and this concept only has one token (the planet Earth) it is unintuitive to think of her of being both the concept and object at the same time.

 

[Theglassman12]

@AbaddonTheDisappointment @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 @Emirp sumitpo @DemonGodMitchAubin any input here would be appreciated. Here’s Planck’s response to the OP which gives more insight to CM1 GoW.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I'll take this one step at a time.

More importantly, doesn't that just seem... a bit incoherent? If Gaia is proposed to be the concept of the Earth itself, her position in the world seems strange. A small small handful of Primordials emerge from absolute nothingness. Among them is Chaos, the Heavens, Darkness, Love, and... specifically the planet Earth? Not planets in general, but Earth. Just Earth. Why would there be an abstract concept of Earth prior to there being an Earth, or nine realms, etc? Why is there no impact on the Earth when she is stabbed through the heart and killed? When Dream of the Endless was trapped away no one could have dreams, and he spoke of the utter nightmare it would be if his captors had successfully trapped Death instead. This is the kind of thing I would expect to see, at least, if we don't have anything direct that describes Gaia or any of the Primordials as abstract ideas.

Funny you mentioned those. Especially the last part about death.

1) Pandora's Box and Evils.

Zeus locked up the evils in box to control their influence on the world. Sounds an awful lot like the instance you gave about Dream. That's one instance of sealing concepts directly affecting their influence on the world. He has Concept Manipulation for this.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zeus_(God_of_War)

• Sealing (Sealed the Great Evils within Pandora's Box)

2) About Death.
What you have mentioned for Death in DC, has already happened in Greek Myth and referenced in GoW as well.
If anyone has read tale of Sisyphus, they will know what I am talking about.
Tldr; That crazy dude locked up Death/Thanatos to save himself from death and with a consequence of people who stopped dying as well, to punish him he was ordered to infamously be forever be stuck rolling a stone uphill.



Kratos referencing Sisyphus existence in his world.

“A Hydra? In my Grave of Ships! The impudence—I have told Zeus, again and again, he is far too lenient with his children! Ares should have spent an entire age of the world beside Sisyphus! I am not so forgiving as my brother. I will crush him! Where is he? Where?”

-------------------------------------

This is hitting nail on the head and knife into the bullseye, I have literally brought up examples matching what you wanted as instances of evidence, especially in Death's case.

I hope this conclusively ends this debate.

:-Credits to Planck and Klol for major help, and Glass for perms.

 

[Elizhaa]

I disagree with changes, from the opposition's arguments.

 

[Deagonx]

Zeus locked up the evils in box to control their influence on the world. Sounds an awful lot like the instance you gave about Dream.

Its actually very different, and the "Evils" are a good example of where viewing things as an abstract concept becomes very bizarre. The Great Evils were created as a result of the war between Zeus and titans. This is the list of them:

Fear, Rage, Hatred, Pride, Deceit, Gluttony, Sloth, Envy, Lust, Misery, Avarice.

Now, these can't be the literal concepts of the things themselves since the Titanomachy spawned them and these concepts predated the Titanomachy. As in the ascension intro:

In the time before the titans, before the gods of Olympus, a great battle was waged. The Wrath of the Primordials. The very beings who forged the earth, raged out of control for an eternity. And from this rage, this madness of war, the furies were brought forth

I am sure I could find many many more examples of these emotions existing prior to Zeus' war with the Titans, which means these entities are not the concepts of the things they are named after. And if they persist in the world despite being sealed away then they also can't be concepts of the things themselves.

Kratos referencing Sisyphus existence in his world.

Sisyphus in the original myth chained up Thanatos which caused death to stop occurring. Kratos in this game literally killed Thanatos and nothing like that happened, so Kratos saying Sisyphus' name isn't enough for those kinds of extrapolations.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Its actually very different, and the "Evils" are a good example of where viewing things as an abstract concept becomes very bizarre. The Great Evils were created as a result of the war between Zeus and titans. This is the list of them:

Fear, Rage, Hatred, Pride, Deceit, Gluttony, Sloth, Envy, Lust, Misery, Avarice.

Now, these can't be the literal concepts of the things themselves since the Titanomachy spawned them and these concepts predated the Titanomachy. As in the ascension intro:

Fear, Greed, Rage etc aren't inherently evil, Their excess definitely is, and that's how "evils" were borne during Titanomachy. Emotions ran out of control and became evil, to reign them in Zeus locked them up not erased them. Evils/Emotions didn't stop existing. So there's no need to assume that their influence would become zero. Elimination of evils and their influence was never the intention of Zeus sealing evils, it was to bring their power back to normal levels. Eliminating evils will is just idiotic, because it will end humanity.

Also, emotions do predate reality. The entire premise and philosophy of the Greek games has idea of Patricide as it's core premise. Father fearing son will kill and takeover the throne. It started with Uranus trying to kill his children, his Son Cronus trying to kill his children and finally Zeus trying to kill Kratos. Fear was something felt by Primordials.
Norse game is the cycle of Patricide ending with Kratos nurturing his son Atreus.

Besides, during reign of Titans which was known as Golden Age, humans did exist, humans require emotions to function and exist, so yes emotions did exist. They weren't borne during Titanomachy which happened later. Even humans used to worhsip Titans before Gods came into picture.

All in all this all just distraction from the point that Evils are concepts of emotions which predate the world, went out of control during Titanomachy and got back under control after sealing, because that was exactly what was intended.

Sisyphus in the original myth chained up Thanatos which caused death to stop occurring. Kratos in this game literally killed Thanatos and nothing like that happened, so Kratos saying Sisyphus' name isn't enough for those kinds of extrapolations.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kratos

• Greek Godhood (Succeeded Ares as the New God of War, thus becoming the new embodiment of War itself. All Gods of War have complete control over all forms of war, battle and conflict across all of time.[62] After killing Thanatos, the primordial concept of death, he's been labeled as Death, the Destroyer of Worlds, by Zeus himself.[22] Also contained Hope within him, using a sliver of its powers to kill Ares, but it lay dormant and locked within him by his guilt and failures up until the very end of his vengeance, when he finally unlocked it to kill Zeus[36])

Because Kratos became the new lynchpin of Death.

@Planck69 gave me perms.

 

[Deagonx]

Fear, Greed, Rage etc aren't inherently evil, Their excess definitely is, and that's how "evils" were borne during Titanomachy. Emotions ran out of control and became evil, to reign them in Zeus locked them up not erased them. Evils/Emotions didn't stop existing. So there's no need to assume that their influence would become zero. Elimination of evils and their influence was never the intention of Zeus sealing evils, it was to bring their power back to normal levels. Eliminating evils will is just idiotic, because it will end humanity.

You're drifting from the lore here to paint over the contradictions. Now you're saying that the evils were only evils because they "ran out of control" and that these weren't actually created during the Titanomachy. That's unsubstantiated by anything in the series. Here's what was actually said:

Zeus understood that the evils born from that battle, if left free would destroy the world of man and gods.
He was consumed by the evil, fear.

Born from the battle, not "ran of out control as a result of the battle."
The evil, fear. Not "the evil, out of control fear."

The lore is clear on this. That's all I have to say.

Because Kratos became the new lynchpin of Death.

If your theory is that Kratos literally became the concept of death, how is it exactly that it has no consequences when he later relinquishes his godly power and even dies at other parts of the series?

 

[Theglassman12]

Welp, grace period is over and the final vote tally is 6-3, thread's been rejected so this can be closed.

 

[Deagonx]

Not how that works, lol. I am still discussing matters with Grath, Ultima intends to provide input, along with others who I'd like to come to the thread.

 

[Planck69]

Not how that works, lol. I am still discussing matters with Grath, Ultima intends to provide input, along with others who I'd like to come to the thread.

Deagonx, the thread is done with almost a 2 times voting difference. You yourself have closed closer threads within the same range of time so I'm not sure what the issue here is.

This is not a marginal difference and there isn't ongoing discussion on the thread proper. It can be closed just fine.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It'll do no harm to let it finish the right way, Glass. At the very least allow Grath to comment again: she asked a question, and Deagon answered. Letting her process that and reply to it doesn't harm us. It is historically typical to allow a thread to proceed if there's a loose end.

 

[Deagonx]

Bambu is correct. Moreover there's no harm in allowing a thread to continue under a circumstance like this. The reason it's prudent to conclude a passed thread is so that the changes get made. To contrast, there is no difference between closing this thread (one that hasn't yet passed) and not closing it if you're confident the vote as-is will hold, except in that you'll prevent anyone from giving more input or prevent the discussion from proceeding.

In any case. This is not a venue for discussing thread-closing policy or philosophy. This is my thread, I am engaged in a discussion with other staff members and know that others are looking into it. I'll close it myself when the time comes.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr. Bambu DarkGrath has the right to reopen the thread to make a comment, plus her question is about understanding Deagon's definition of what a concept is, not the legitimacy of GoW having concept hax since she disagrees with the thread. Also last time I checked Deagon closed the two prior threads right when grace was over when other GoW folks like KLOL and Pepsiman were still commenting, especially the bio hax stuff when KLOL was asking for input on new scans, so I don't see what the problem is here when the discussion's been done for the past few hours when Deagon does the exact same thing.

 

[Planck69]

This is arguably more egregious than those cases because there was no discussion for the last 4 hours, as opposed to a thread being closed in the middle of posts being made.

I won't try to close it anymore myself, largely because it'd lead to a back-and-forth that goes nowhere, but I'm just posting this for the record.

 

[Deagonx]

Right, because those threads passed, thus the changes could be made. We don't close threads immediately after grace as "rejected" if the vote is not currently in their favor, especially if the discussion is ongoing. You're comparing two different thread states and asking why they're treated differently. That should answer your own question.

Now, in any case, none of that has anything to do with the topic at hand and this is not a venue for discussing such things. The thread will be closed when the discussion concludes if the vote has not changed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Mr. Bambu DarkGrath has the right to reopen the thread to make a comment, plus her question is about understanding Deagon's definition of what a concept is, not the legitimacy of GoW having concept hax since she disagrees with the thread. Also last time I checked Deagon closed the two prior threads right when grace was over when other GoW folks like KLOL and Pepsiman were still commenting, especially the bio hax stuff when KLOL was asking for input on new scans, so I don't see what the problem is here when the discussion's been done for the past few hours when Deagon does the exact same thing.

Obviously she has the right, but that's because it shouldn't be closed to begin with when discussion is ongoing.

I agree it's not great to close those, although the voting is not like this instance: the first one was 5-1, and the other was fairly quiet for a full day before being closed. In this case, were Grath to accept Deagon's position and change sides, the voting would fall to 4-5, which isn't enough to be considered conclusive.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The Bio Manip one was attempted to be "passed" with a one-vote disparity by the time people were calling for its closure (yes, the vote disparity did increase, which definitely did warrant the closure later, but not when it was initially being pushed for), whereas a three-vote disparity of disagreement vs. agreement somehow isn't enough to consider this rejected? I'd be inclined to disagree.

It's not even like a small number of staff participated, either. While certainly less than the aforementioned infamous thread, 10 evaluating staff participated.

 

[Planck69]

Obviously she has the right, but that's because it shouldn't be closed to begin with when discussion is ongoing.

I agree it's not great to close those, although the voting is not like this instance: the first one was 5-1, and the other was fairly quiet for a full day before being closed. In this case, were Grath to accept Deagon's position and change sides, the voting would fall to 4-5, which isn't enough to be considered conclusive.

It's 6 votes that disagree and DarkGrath's last post was clarification on what Deagonx thinks concepts are, not an assertion that she might flip votes. Not to mention the lack of comments for hours on end. And one of those was closed with a one vote difference, while posts where still being made.

Like I said, keep this open. I'm just going to let the facts speak for themselves.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deagonx You wanna quote the wiki rules that says the same can't be applied to rejected threads when there's a clear vote difference? I'd like to see that please.

@Mr. Bambu No the votes were near neck in neck with the bio stuff with both Pepsiman and KLOL still arguing and asking questions yet those were closed. This is massive hypocrisy here if Deagon's thread getting rejected deserves another chance yet KLOL and Pepsiman's arguments don't get any second chance, unless there's a rule where threads being rejected gets one last chance as opposed to threads being accepted and the opposition just gets no chance to argue back.

Literally what part of Grath's post implies she might change votes when she's asking what Deagon's definition of concepts are? Her first actual response to the discussion is her agreeing the primordials are conceptual beings.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's 6 votes that disagree and DarkGrath's last post was clarification on what Deagonx thinks concepts are, not an assertion that she might flip votes. Not to mention the lack of comments for hours on end. And one of those was closed with a one vote difference, while posts where still being made.

Like I said, keep this open. I'm just going to let the facts speak for themselves.

I know it's 6 currently. If DarkGrath flipped, it would be 5, and the side in favor of removal (which is currently 3) would be raised by one, Grath (making it 4). I don't think it's an unreasonable belief that she might, and I see no harm in waiting a bit.

The second one had three posts made in about 36 hours (which would be about 75% of the runtime of this entire thread), one by Deagonx himself announcing the closure. If you want to let the facts speak for themselves so much, you should let them do so.

 

[Planck69]

I know it's 6 currently. If DarkGrath flipped, it would be 5, and the side in favor of removal (which is currently 3) would be raised by one, Grath (making it 4). I don't think it's an unreasonable belief that she might, and I see no harm in waiting a bit.

The second one had three posts made in about 36 hours (which would be about 75% of the runtime of this entire thread), one by Deagonx himself announcing the closure. If you want to let the facts speak for themselves so much, you should let them do so.

Could that very same logic not be applied to the other thread that were closed though? Or really any thread that gets closed without staff doing a second run to confirm their votes?

I dunno why you fixate on the second removal thread. If it's the one with magma manipulation removal, I didn't even participate, of course I'm going to specifically speak on the bio manip thread when I say this.

 

[Deagonx]

That's enough derailing. Discuss thread closure policy privately or on each other's walls, not on a revision thread.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Could that very same logic not be applied to the other thread that were closed though? Or really any thread that gets closed without staff doing a second run to confirm their votes?

Staff normally don't count their votes a second time, so no, not really.

I dunno why you fixate on the second removal thread. If it's the one with magma manipulation removal, I didn't even participate, of course I'm going to specifically speak on the bio manip thread when I say this.

???

I'm referencing the one with the "deadlock", where nobody commented for over a day's time. The 5-1 voting difference is even less relevant to the current discussion.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm not in the mood at all to get too far into this given how these threads have gone so I'll make my overall case in this post and ping all the staff who participated in the original thread.


It really isn't. It's a shorthand for the explanations on the page itself. Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation comes from the nature of magic in the setting as a whole. The justification reads as such because we've established in a prior CRT that souls are just constructs of magic/life energy, interchangeable terms.



Once again, this isn't the core idea regarding why souls are this level of concept in the first place, but merely part of it, as I've said above. Anyways;



The Form is treated as such because it shapes the physical form of a being, that is changes in said soul are reflected in their bodies. This is showcased with Garm, in which his initial appearance visibly changes after Atreus seals Fenrir's soul in him, and actually shifts to resemble the late wolf, unique furpatches and all.

Direction guides a being's soul to its respective afterlife, as this is what is talked about in the case of Brok, who lost his Direction after initially being resurrected and no longer being able to make his way to his people's afterlife, the Lake of Souls.


To quote the explanation page itself;

The independence to be observed here is that not only can they exist absent of space and time, but predate them entirely. This seems to assume that the case for them being concepts is once again, solely reliant on this fact. It isn't. It's just establishing a fact about souls, so this reponse is a non-sequitir more than anything.

Also, no we do not assume souls are just unbound by space and time by default, what? This entire part feels like a response for a response's sake.


The scan there is just linking up the Primordials with the specific domain they possess. The idea that this is just the sole scan is also laughable given there was an entire re-clarification thread when the same assumption about their justifications was brought up. To save people's time, I'll just paste the same scans and arguments that were made there.

• The Primordials; specifically their Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Abstract Existence (Type 1) are better detailed here. Frankly, the use of just the image was goofy so better to have it all detailed.
  
  • The Primordials predate the universe and time, given that they existed in the primordial realm of Chaos, with the universe itself having been created by one of them, and would exist long after it is reduced to chaos.
  • Chaos, and the primordial forces within it, predating time is something common across pantheons. The Ginnungagap, or Spark of the World, is the void that preceded Ymir's existence and thus time and space, being where chaos and order meet much like how the order was brought to Chaos by Uranus creating the universe. Sutr himself reminds us that the origin of primordial magic doesn't matter and holds the same nature regardless of mythical origin.
  • They are responsible for creating the entirety of the Greek World and its contents, be it physical or non-physical, being the literal concepts of the aspects of nature that they represent. Primordial forces are also synonymous with magic, which itself is an Independent Universal Concept that predates time and exists throughout all of the reality of a given pantheon.
  • Holding a more fundamental existence relative to their domains than gods, who are aware of all that would ever occur within their domains across time and space and are ever present throughout them, the aspects of the world they embody are merely the physical forms of their true non-physical selves. This I especially feel should've been elaborated better, given some of the aspects (Ourea with Mountains, Ceto with the Oceans), were not as abstract as others (Thanatos with Death, Morpheus with Dreams).

The scan's point is that Kratos's awareness spans the domain of war entirely, and that he is aware of everything that occurs involving it. With "every place war is fought or will ever be fought" being his kingdom. This is a matter of deducing what happens from the scan. A common thread throughout most of this argument is that you seem to refuse to engage with the context of a scan and would instead assume that what's posted is what you expect to see stated verbatim else it is false.

Specifically, the last part of the paragpraph, which is what I assume you have the most issue with, is explained in the last scan in that paragraph. Gaia, a Primordial, is of the earth, the earth itself yet herself an incorporeal embodiment. This is not the same as the gods, who definitely are not literally their domains.



This is once again something addressed at the very start of the page.



What's being stated isn't "all primordials are magic". It's that all primordial forces are the same in nature across pantheons, and from what we know, said forces are magic. It's a deduction from information we have, a deduction you may not agree with sure, but information that is present all the same.


Yes. The art that is just used to show what each Primordial represents. Since Chaos represents life and life is synonymous with magic, as established on the first section of the explanation page. To repeat it;

This is the part that's foundational to everything here. Ceto is the Oceans, Uranus is the Heavens, Ourea is the Mountains and Chaos is Life. Life that, as showcased above, is one and the same as magic in the setting. So the entity that predates all of time and space, and is the source of everything in the Greek reality, is life/magic much like in the same way Gaia is the earth itself and not just a manifestation or its embodiment.

TL;DR​

• Life, souls and magic are synonymous, as the first section of the explanation page asserts. That this section is not touched a single time by OP, I will assume there isn't any disagreement here.
• Primordial forces/magic are the same across pantheons and both predate reality. This again, isn't denied by the OP, so I will take the liberty to assume it also isn't an issue.
• The scan regarding the Primordials is solely to showcase who represents what (Uranus-Heaven, Ceto-Ocean, Ourea-Mountain, Chaos-Life). With the scan of Gaia from the novelization showcasing while they fully are what physical they represent, they're true state is incorporeal and inchoate. Hence their abstract existence.
• Summing all of that up, magic predates time, as well as all beings in the Greek world, abstract or otherwise, being what Chaos truly is, and influences all of it. This is partly due to being the source of the other Primordials, but also due to sharing the same nature across pantheons with Norse runic magic, which flows through the entirety of the Nine Realms and is drawn from their very makeup. Souls, whose form aspect shapes the physical state and nature of a person, are also made up of said magic.

That is the sum total of my explanation as to why magic is a Type 1 concept and thus souls as well. I am quite frankly tired of the needless drama these threads cause, so I will just ping everyone who participated in the initial threads to upgrade this and let this come to a staff vote. Respond if you want to to this whole thing.

And frankly, can you stop it with these types of comments? Suggesting something discussed over two threads is wrong is one thing but calling it "smoke and mirrors" and insinuating that I've either pulled the wool over the evaluating staff's eyes or something is tasteless.

@KingTempest @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Dereck03 @UchihaSlayer96 @LordGriffin1000 @Maverick_Zero_X

This looks good to me

 

[Antvasima]

So what about my suggestion to use more self-evident examples of affecting conceptual entities as a basis, rather than affecting souls, and making this clearer within our GoW pages?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima Planck has agreed that he'd be willing to rework the conceptual arguments to have some more direct statements on the nature and at least provide evidence of such a thing happening, though it will take him some time since it's the end of the semester for most folks so I assume it will take him a bit of time before he gets around to working on a redraft.

 

[Deagonx]

So what about my suggestion to use more self-evident examples of affecting conceptual entities as a basis, rather than affecting souls, and making this clearer within our GoW pages?

Currently the point of contention is whether there are any self-evident examples that could be used.

If the thread does not pass we can certainly update the existing justifications so that there's something more than merely a picture of concept art in then, which would make it easier to follow up on this topic in the future.

For my part, I don't think the evidence suggesting Gaia (and by extension the primordials) is a concept is very good. Gaia is called "the Earth." To me that's much too vague to say she's a concept, and the fact that she gets killed in a physical battle after being stabbed in the heart, and nothing happens to the Earth as a result, suggests strongly to me she is not a concept.

In any case, I am currently discussing it with Grath and Ultima told me he intends to comment soon. Depending on the outcome of that i may close this as rejected and pursue the matter down the road now that the actual scans being used aren't hidden and more specific counter-evidence/arguments can be worked on.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

@AbaddonTheDisappointment @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 @Emirp sumitpo @DemonGodMitchAubin any input here would be appreciated. Here’s Planck’s response to the OP which gives more insight to CM1 GoW.

I disagree with the OP for Planck's reasons.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Even if Grath did flip positions, it would seem unlikely that this makes a significant enough change in the voting to change the outcome. Still, it would be considered good etiquette to wait for her (and possibly Ultima, since Deagon is mentioning him wanting to speak on this).