Removing Beyond-Dimensional Existence from a few pages

[Ultima_Reality]

Introduction​

Hey guys

So, I made this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultima_Reality/sandbox

As it turns out, there are quite a few characters who are currently listed as having Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence, but shouldn't, as per the reasons outlined in the sandbox. Either for insufficient (And in some cases nonsensical) reasoning, or for the lack of any reasoning on the pages whatsoever.

The ones listed under "Misapplied" should be removed, and the ones listed under "Unjustified" ought to receive a justification. If they don't receive one, or are found to have none, then they are to have their Beyond-Dimensional Existence removed as well. Thank you.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Antvasima

Here is the thread.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

can i appeal on some misapplied profiles to bring more context/information

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You've my permission.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Looks fine. Though the fact Living Tribunal and Venom outscale the Endless is crazy in my opinion.

I think Akuto Sai should be removed from Type 2 completely.

 

[LazyMortician]

Lucifer and Michael in particular must have type 2. They are far beyond all of creation and Silver City. (with the simplest example)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

When I was discussing some stuff with Imaginary Axis on dimensionality with Lucifer or Michael. It’s almost always said things are better with context based things than actual direct statement.

I can’t see how Living Tribunal has Type 2 in comparison to what the general think that Lucifer is much above Living Tribunal or most of Marvel. Vertigo lore states since the beginning as accrediting Presence “Creation” as the only Creation that beget first before any concept that Michael and Lucifer made when they created that whole structure in the darkness before Creation. Endless true nature deserved Type 2 that prevail as concepts reaching over all things like Night and Time. Morpheus or the Endless are just extent of the concept itself, a point of view and the family are mere function to humans when the entire concept they represent should be beyond any scope of dimensionality, I would argue even more than Michael or Lucifer.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So you can't get type 2 without being at least Low 1-C, am i reading that right? Well there goes any plans of giving it to M, unless we upgrade him to Low 1-C

Eternity Sword characters would lose type 2 and just be type 1. Shallow Vernal, and Kuromueina due to being World Creators, have superiority over creation, which includes time and space, but can't remember anything about lacking time, so probably fine to remove it from them.

 

[Lynieryz]

Kamen Rider's BDE comes from here, but upon looking at it properly, it really doesn't seem to qualify.

Gaim simple revision

Gaim novel has passed for a long times ago but i think there is something missing from their profile. Kugai Kudo (Kamen Rider Saver) After died in Sengoku experiment, he had lost his physical body and became a pure higher dimensional energy or mental existence Scan To be more accurate, he’s...

vsbattles.com

 

[Roirr]

When I was discussing some stuff with Imaginary Axis on dimensionality with Lucifer or Michael. It’s almost always said things are better with context based things than actual direct statement.

I can’t see how Living Tribunal has Type 2 in comparison to what the general think that Lucifer is much above Living Tribunal or most of Marvel. Vertigo lore states since the beginning as accrediting Presence “Creation” as the only Creation that beget first before any concept that Michael and Lucifer made when they created that whole structure in the darkness before Creation. Endless true nature deserved Type 2 that prevail as concepts reaching over all things like Night and Time. Morpheus or the Endless are just extent of the concept itself, a point of view and the family are mere function to humans when the entire concept they represent should be beyond any scope of dimensionality, I would argue even more than Michael or Lucifer.

One character having a better BDE does not affect another character's BDE, especially if the characters in question are from 2 different fictional universes.

 

[Antvasima]

Ultima's suggestions here seem good to me.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Since I got permission to defend here

So, about this profile Beelzebub Granblue (I am suppose to add more profiles of Otherworldly characters but Cosmology CRT limbo keeps happening and cosmology kept changing every main story update/anniversary update [spoiler: New anniversary story conclusion at the end of February])
Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 2; Otherworlders are entities that Transcends Space and Itself[26] and no dimensional barriers can stop them as long as Death Exist in that dimension.[27] which is further supported by the fact that Ellis who has hyperdimensional perception and perceives 3D space as flat and capable of seeing T-Axis[2] can only perceive white noise from the Otherworldly flesh Isaac accidentally ate[28]),

Images with black backgrounds or from the game directly are read from the bottom btw

This was the justification but as I look into it. it lacks a few more context. most notably how Chaos and Otherworldly energy are the same
to understand more about what chaos is.

[full image]
this was already known information and I believe it was a mistake not to include it.
now a few scan sentences about the nature of chaos aren't much without elaboration
so to begin
Crimson Horizon is the place where chaos now resides after the Otherworlders invaded it. and became part of their territory. but still distinct enough from the Otherworld itself because it was originally just a regular world.

"long as Death Exist in that dimension."
now this doesn't mean much without context. but to reiterate. This refers more to the idea of death and destruction which is an unchanging principle. (I will explain later down the line why this unchanging principle is important) which is the Providence of Death. As Loki also explained it is an escapable (In a way also unchanging).
This is also again described as the law of nature cannot be reversed (Inchoate World at this point Achieved the divinity of a God that can freely manipulate).
another context to add to this. They were in a place called Edgeland which is on the back of Ebisu

Time and Space cease to function as one would expect and is beyond the grasp of reality and time.[23] This place is also where Fate coalesce[24]either by coincidence or by the influence of higher power.[25] Falling in Ebisu means losing connection to your history and fate.[26] Edgeland is at the edge of reality and only Fate can guide you to this place.[27] Furthermore it shares similarities with Otherworld of having their time seemingly stopped because they are unbound by it.[28]and thus Death cannot simply occur in this place due to how Metaphysical entities(Gods as is it called sometimes) cannot exert power without an incarnation of such as vessels.
this is connected to the nature of primal beasts and metaphysical entities that will be explained below.

The Confluence of thoughts, philosophies, and timelines from every dimension, without any order whatsoever​

the part about thoughts and philosophies doesn't mean much without context. but there are clear indications of what they meant.
Loki explained what beliefs, myths, conceptions, and abstracts are. This was initially supported by earlier stories by Rosetta. and these beliefs became Divine Beings.
This is what the thoughts and philosophies would refer to. And no these aren't simple beliefs and conceptions as they become actual powers that one can control by making use of such concepts, legends, or myth which is how most primal beasts are created although they are limited to an Astral Shell that astral created for them which is what allows them to retain a sense of self and they can manifest or exert the power of these concepts using their core as a guidepost for such without suffering the consequence of being an ambiguous divine being in the Divine Realm without any form and are unable to exert their powers in reality without vessels.

furthermore it also just so happens that indeed the idea of dimension and the concept of dimension is a thing within cosmology. And was even discussed during the Manifestation of the Legion Void which is the collective manifestation of all otherworldly beings into physical reality. Where they explained the dimensional difference as something fundamental that is not about strength but by the nature of dimensional power/difference and they would require something equivalent to actually even attempt to harm it. and by use of concepts beyond their scope.

Aside from the loose argument that chaos contains thoughts, philosophies, and timelines from every dimension, and the concept of dimension and how concepts are actual powers that possess no concept of physical individuality which in turn include spatial existence any dimension for even such are subject to concepts.
There is also another entity which is something outside the bounds of dimension

The Boundary is described as beyond the bounds of dimension and cannot be described in terms of vertical space. The revelation the item is about is the information that Orologia is grabbing when simulating realities
this can become a long tangent so I'll get to the point.
The Boundary is beyond the bounds of dimension and is a place where all time exists concurrently or one. It is supplied by the Omnipotent's Clone to fill its space.
It is also where information about anything in reality and its power exists. which includes these six dragons that maintain the tenets, Law of Rebirth and Destruction that supersedes even Orologia that defines causality and flow of time, and using the power from the boundary they defeated Legion Void as even Legion Void is powerless to the nature of this power as it is another yet unchanging principle of providence that the Omnipotent cannot be overtaken. And yet the Otherworlders were able to overcome at least its physical manifestations (which was hinted to be faulty). and as dictated the metaphysical self is not constrained to physical individuality making any physical manifestation of the Omnipotent, not its true unique self. this might be a contradiction to the Omnipotent but it also becomes somewhat a feat as we see that what they have absorbed has physical properties. Yet even after its defeat. the power and information within the Boundary/Estalucia still exist.

There's also this video

which is describing this prison

Now overall there is a contradiction as Repti said the Omnipotent shouldn't have been overcome even the physical clone as dictated by Providence's unchanging principles. sadly this is where the story ends
now whether all these argument qualifies or not and might do a few more exchanges but I can see where it comes short so your evaluation could give me a clearer idea of what BDE Type 2 currently is now. I've got some idea that this could just be at best High 1-B and not BDE type 2 but I'm not really knowledgable in any high tiers that reaches the area of being beyond dimensions etc

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Introduction​

Hey guys

So, I made this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultima_Reality/sandbox

As it turns out, there are quite a few characters who are currently listed as having Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence, but shouldn't, as per the reasons outlined in the sandbox. Either for insufficient (And in some cases nonsensical) reasoning, or for the lack of any reasoning on the pages whatsoever.

The ones listed under "Misapplied" should be removed, and the ones listed under "Unjustified" ought to receive a justification. If they don't receive one, or are found to have none, then they are to have their Beyond-Dimensional Existence removed as well. Thank you.

I shall add more wording but BDE2 is... Being superior to space and its dimensions, isn't that like existing outside all kind of temporal range or something?, and i see no problem with having HDE and BDE at the Same time like this guy, His kind of existence is described Like this


That's why i essentially gave a detailed cosmology explanation concerning how someone who exist as temporal embodiment all through out time on an infinity level scale, himself not just superior in nature, he exist outside and independent of it completely

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So you can't get type 2 without being at least Low 1-C, am i reading that right? Well there goes any plans of giving it to M, unless we upgrade him to Low 1-C

Eternity Sword characters would lose type 2 and just be type 1. Shallow Vernal, and Kuromueina due to being World Creators, have superiority over creation, which includes time and space, but can't remember anything about lacking time, so probably fine to remove it from them.

You heard it right, yes. Though, mind you: It's more like "Having Type 2 at all means you're at least Low 1-C," and not "Being Low 1-C inherently makes you eligible for Type 1.

On the topic of Eternity Sword characters: Their Type 1 BDE would have to come from here, since the "transcend space and time" statements don't qualify for any type at all.

I shall add more wording but BDE2 is... Being superior to space and its dimensions, isn't that like existing outside all kind of temporal range or something?, and i see no problem with having HDE and BDE at the Same time like this guy, His kind of existence is described Like this


That's why i essentially gave a detailed cosmology explanation concerning how someone who exist as temporal embodiment all through out time on an infinity level scale, himself not just superior in nature, he exist outside and independent of it completely

There is indeed a problem with "Lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature" and being... something with spatio-temporal features (Which is what Higher-Dimensional Existence is)

And the cosmology page for the verse, from what I can gather, doesn't go in-depth about Veldanava or the way he is superior to the rest of the verse at all. All I can conclude from the evidence given is that he created everything, which doesn't suggest BDE at all. And even if I were to be generous and say that he lacks the things he created, that would be Type 1, not Type 2.

This was the justification but as I look into it. it lacks a few more context. most notably how Chaos and Otherworldly energy are the same
to understand more about what chaos is.

[full image]
this was already known information and I believe it was a mistake not to include it.
now a few scan sentences about the nature of chaos aren't much without elaboration
so to begin
Crimson Horizon is the place where chaos now resides after the Otherworlders invaded it. and became part of their territory. but still distinct enough from the Otherworld itself because it was originally just a regular world.

Interesting stuff. Although, is there any suggestion the Crimson Horizon is superior to the normal world? It seems to be non-dimensional, certainly, given the fact it's totally opposed to the sphere where causality, physics, time and etc. exist, but that on its own would only suggest Type 1. Otherworlders, from what I see, are also described as having flesh, which doesn't jive well with the idea of BDE at all.

The Boundary is described as beyond the bounds of dimension and cannot be described in terms of vertical space. The revelation the item is about is the information that Orologia is grabbing when simulating realities
this can become a long tangent so I'll get to the point.
The Boundary is beyond the bounds of dimension and is a place where all time exists concurrently or one. It is supplied by the Omnipotent's Clone to fill its space.

Same with this. Technically, even characters and realms with Type 1 Beyond-Dimensional Existence are "beyond" the bounds of dimension (In the sense they're inherently outside of dimensional space). More evidence would be needed to demonstrate superiority, overall, like being described/shown as dwarfing dimensioned things, for example.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

And the cosmology page for the verse, from what I can gather, doesn't go in-depth about Veldanava or the way he is superior to the rest of the verse at all. All I can conclude from the evidence given is that he created everything, which doesn't suggest BDE at all. And even if I were to be generous and say that he lacks the things he created, that would be Type 1, not Type 2.

Okay, then i might actually to apply more wordings, Although looking at the BDE2

Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime

About that, There's like a scan where everything seem to be an extension of his Will which is itself, Which include the time spirit, who was unbound of spatial-temporality of the verse

---

additionally, everything works as he wills it, btw this "Everything", although having or containing all time cycles, is still something that wouldn't even exist without time spirit(who is still outside), shouldn't time spirit be BDE1 in all sense of the word?
By the way this is a question i am not challenging your judgment
If this still lands him in BDE1 might be fine

 

[Ultima_Reality]

About that, There's like a scan where everything seem to be an extension of his Will which is itself, Which include the time spirit, who was unbound of spatial-temporality of the verse

---

additionally, everything works as he wills it, btw this "Everything", although having or containing all time cycles, is still something that wouldn't even exist without time spirit(who is still outside), shouldn't time spirit be BDE1 in all sense of the word?
By the way this is a question i am not challenging your judgment
If this still lands him in BDE1 might be fine

That would still be Type 1 at best, yeah, for Veldanava at least. The Spirit of Time having BDE at all sounds contradictory, for obvious reasons. Is there context to that?

 

[Deagonx]

I trust your judgment on this.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Wouldn’t the Endless be BDE Type 2? They only interact with the bounds of spatio-temporal concepts only within the Material World. Their mere presence deforms the reality they surround and they are just aspect of the greater concept they are. Thoughts Ultima?

 

[Deagonx]

For the Monitors, would the scan from Thought Robot saying "I'm walking among primal forms in a fundamental world" be sufficient to establish BDE Type 2, along with the DC Cosmology page asserting that we consider Nil to have qualitative superiority to the physical world? (I think it's actually two layers up at the moment.) If so I can put a justification together.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

For the Monitors, would the scan from Thought Robot saying "I'm walking among primal forms in a fundamental world" be sufficient to establish BDE Type 2, along with the DC Cosmology page asserting that we consider Nil to have qualitative superiority to the physical world? (I think it's actually two layers up at the moment.) If so I can put a justification together.

The thing is doesn’t Nil still have a sort of time dimension working there? It’s not the regular conventional time-space but nevertheless a form of time exist there?

 

[Deagonx]

The thing is doesn’t Nil still have a sort of time dimension working there? It’s not the regular conventional time-space but nevertheless a form of time exist there.

I see. I read this "Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions." and I didn't realize it needed to include time.

@Ultima_Reality Does having some notion of time in one's native realm disqualify Type 2?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Wouldn’t the Endless be BDE Type 2? They only interact with the bounds of spatio-temporal concepts only within the Material World. Their mere presence deforms the reality they surround and they are just aspect of the greater concept they are. Thoughts Ultima?

For the aspects of the Endless? I wouldn't say so, since all of them are explicitly bound to the structure of creation, save for Death, who even then is still clearly of the same general ontology as her siblings. For ther true forms? Yeah, I could see it, since it's implied that they're rooted beyond the Presence's creation (See Dusk saying Night's realm is "home" to the Endless when meeting Dream)

But the profiles currently don't acknowledge their true forms as things that exist, for some reason. You'd need a CRT to add that as a key.

For the Monitors, would the scan from Thought Robot saying "I'm walking among primal forms in a fundamental world" be sufficient to establish BDE Type 2, along with the DC Cosmology page asserting that we consider Nil to have qualitative superiority to the physical world? (I think it's actually two layers up at the moment.) If so I can put a justification together.

I wouldn't say so, since the Sphere of the Gods, for its part, is explicitly higher-dimensional, and Nil is really just to the Godsphere as the Godsphere is to the Bleed. Not to mention Captain Adam explicitly calling it a "higher dimension" (Which, given Morrison's usual usage of the term, most certainly isn't just them calling Nil a higher place or something of the like)

Does having some notion of time in one's native realm disqualify Type 2?

If it's physical time as in, a temporal dimension, then yes. But that's a relatively modern understanding of time that doesn't necessarily align with all renditions of the concept. If "time" was just some nebulous abstract force marking change and progress (Instead of a physical direction that's just a little different from spatial directions), there wouldn't be a problem. I don't think that's the case with Nil, though.

 

[Deagonx]

Captain Adam explicitly calling it a "higher dimension" (Which, given Morrison's usual usage of the term, most certainly isn't just them calling Nil a higher place or something of the like)

Are you saying that you consider Nil to be physical? If so I'd strongly disagree, but otherwise I am not sure what you're getting at with this. It seems more or less obvious to me that they're just calling it a higher place.

If "time" was just some nebulous abstract force marking change and progress (Instead of a physical direction that's just a little different from spatial directions), there wouldn't be a problem. I don't think that's the case with Nil, though.

How do we determine that?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

For the aspects of the Endless? I wouldn't say so, since all of them are explicitly bound to the structure of creation, save for Death, who even then is still clearly of the same general ontology as her siblings. For ther true forms? Yeah, I could see it, since it's implied that they're rooted beyond the Presence's creation (See Dusk saying Night's realm is "home" to the Endless when meeting Dream)

Creation and the Material World are different though. Their reach extends and permeates through every part of Creation. Their aspects which is referring to one point of view are still the personification of the concept. They all existed prior to Time and the Big Bang and they existed beyond(higher) than the Material World where concepts of time, space, dimensions, and casualty form.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Are you saying that you consider Nil to be physical? If so I'd strongly disagree, but otherwise I am not sure what you're getting at with this. It seems more or less obvious to me that they're just calling it a higher place.

"Dimensional," at least, if not physical in the usual sense. Nil and the Monitors are stated to be "of pure thought" a lot, but given the Sphere of the Gods in the same setting receives similar descriptions despite being explicitly referred to as higher-dimensional and being bound by dimensioned things (Hypertime, for instance), I don't consider it any different from when a verse shows a soul and it's just some shiny intangible entity that's nevertheless clearly extended in space, and not a non-dimensional essence or whatever.

Overall, I lean toward deeming Nil to be just higher-dimensional due to a pretty large absence of evidence suggesting otherwise, ontop of realms of a similar nature being explicitly given descriptions that prevent them from having BDE despite the usual indicators.

How do we determine that?

Would have to be explicitly stated in most cases.

They all existed prior to Time and the Big Bang and they existed beyond(higher) than the Material World where concepts of time, space, dimensions, and casualty form.

Do you have the scans of that? I imagine it's largely contextual, so you can take you time if needed.

 

[Deagonx]

"Dimensional," at least, if not physical in the usual sense. Nil and the Monitors are stated to be "of pure thought" a lot, but given the Sphere of the Gods in the same setting receives similar descriptions despite being explicitly referred to as higher-dimensional and being bound by dimensioned things (Hypertime, for instance), I don't consider it any different from when a verse shows a soul and it's just some shiny intangible entity that's nevertheless clearly extended in space, and not a non-dimensional essence or whatever.

Overall, I lean toward deeming Nil to be just higher-dimensional due to a pretty large absence of evidence suggesting otherwise, ontop of realms of a similar nature being explicitly given descriptions that prevent them from having BDE despite the usual indicators.

This reasoning seems odd to me. You seem to concede that the information given to us about Nil is indicative of -- if not concrete proof of -- it being "beyond dimensional" in the manner needed for the ability. Your objection seems to revolve around the fact that the Sphere of the Gods has received similar descriptions but has other disqualifying information that overrides these descriptions.

The conclusion being that these descriptions are insufficient across the entire verse due to being used inaccurately for the Sphere but that doesn't seem logical to me. Personally I would require similar disqualifying information be produced about Nil in order to disqualify it in the same manner as the Sphere rather than assuming that these descriptions are just entirely bunk within DC. The Sphere has also existed in some capacity for far far longer than Nil and thus has a lot more contradictory information about its nature, whereas Nil has only appeared in a small handful of comics.

I suppose I am not really against the remove (as I don't personally even believe that Nil is qualitatively superior to the Orrery per se, but that would get me burned at the stake here so meh) but the logic being used rubs me the wrong way, personally.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Do you have the scans of that? I imagine it's largely contextual, so you can take you time if needed.

Dream created artifacts he gave to Cain and Abel before the dawn of Time. (Sandman Vol.2 #2)

Destruction mentions how much of a headache concepts are. They saw even the light of the Big Bang. (Sandman Vol.2 #44)

Each Dream points out they viewed the outline the First Circle made before Creation when rules were being enacted for the coming Universe in the Void. (Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #2)

Death herself recalls the event of the Big Bang, not the encore, but the entire thing when Yahweh first made Lucifer and Michael to enact Creation-making. (Lucifer Vol.1 #26)

In the meeting the Endless attend. They were abstract beings that are concepts of themselves such are the Endless. Beings that are what they represent such as the concept of dimensions, stars, and galaxies. (Sandman: Endless Night Vol.1 #1)

The Jin En Mok who are immortals that existed since the First Cosmos death are limited by time, space, causality, all rules in the Material World (Lucifer Vol.1 #7) until they merge as what they truly are: Void without Form. (Lucifer Vol.1 #21) The Endless are a higher order than them at least within Creation and possible even their True Form since they paid for their immortal by cheating.

Now retroactively they may appear younger than Yahweh or his Demiurgic servants. However, they existed since humans first appeared when Creation was anew. Gaudium claims humans has changed the facet of reality so many times in the years of Eternity. So paradoxically, despite being side-effects of Creation, they’re technically older than the God of the Covenant and his creations.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

The timestream is outside dimensional confines, the Bleed is "meta-spatial" and described as "ultra-spatial" a couple of times, I wouldn't think of these two as something spatial or dimensional in the normal sense. And obviously the prefixes used for the Bleed here imply an inherent superiority to space as a whole.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The timestream is outside dimensional confines, the Bleed is "meta-spatial" and described as "ultra-spatial" a couple of times, I wouldn't think of these two as something spatial or dimensional in the normal sense. And obviously the prefixes used for the Bleed here imply an inherent superiority to space as a whole.

Those scans do not work with the Crisis Cosmology. Considering space is very “board.” The entirety of space as an abstract concept needs to be there not “confines of dimensional space” for Type 2.

 

[Deagonx]

Both of your links are to the same scan. Though I will note your first scan does not say it is "outside dimensional confines" rather it says it is "outside the confines of dimensional space" and "unaffected by the flow of time."

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Both of your links are to the same scan.

My bad, it's fixed now.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Bleed is called Bleedspace for a reason. Which is in between the Universes and confined in the Orrery. Hardly enough for BDE.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

If it's physical time as in, a temporal dimension, then yes. But that's a relatively modern understanding of time that doesn't necessarily align with all renditions of the concept. If "time" was just some nebulous abstract force marking change and progress (Instead of a physical direction that's just a little different from spatial directions), there wouldn't be a problem. I don't think that's the case with Nil, though.

Using this quote of yours, i will be using it to represent this one, however still Note, i am still just trying to confirm if so and so Qualifications would meet, also this is all the arguments i have, if it doesn't qualify, I'll stick with BDE1 (should be higher level )

That would still be Type 1 at best, yeah, for Veldanava at least. The Spirit of Time having BDE at all sounds contradictory, for obvious reasons. Is there context to that?

There's this thing called sub space which exist outside Time, What i mean is all it's literal Cycles of time - in this, we see how it sends people to different point in time to different dimensions
Now going on, this place is called a "Nothing that didn't exist"; in this Same Vein of when we talked about the spirit of time, now am using your previous quote, according to slime San, Although time- which represents all events (which we should know is timeline), Time itself can't be measured/dealt with/interacted with which supports the elements of the Time is unbound; over and rules over everything heck the space spirit is literally 4D, in other words space itself all through out time
Due to this explanation

Great spirits are individual Spiritual beings which exist as the very fundamental of the world, a higher concept than even True Dragons because without them nothing will literally exist. They also embody the entirety of Existence on a Conceptual Level, they are the source of all attributes which govern reality. They have several abilities like Conceptual Manipulation(Type 1), Abstract Existence (Type 1), Large Size (Type 9), Elemental Manipulation and for the spirit of time which have Nonduality (Nature type 1, Aspect type 1)

anyways back to main point
Sub-space is 0 time, outside time
Great spirits- embody everything including that same sub space which wouldn't qualify but eh
And then, spirit of time
This "God" i talked of still fits this bill then right? Using this graphics

His nature is superior, outside, unbound by space and its dimensions literally outside temporal effect

 

[Lynieryz]

I have a question, a character being the very concept of dimensionality is what in relation to BDE?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Interesting stuff. Although, is there any suggestion the Crimson Horizon is superior to the normal world? It seems to be non-dimensional, certainly, given the fact it's totally opposed to the sphere where causality, physics, time and etc. exist, but that on its own would only suggest Type 1. Otherworlders, from what I see, are also described as having flesh, which doesn't jive well with the idea of BDE at all.

Crimson Horizon or the Otherworld in this context.

Them having flesh as described by Isaac eating their flesh is more on the entities who originally had flesh but became corrupted which are those of the majority being capable of thought. in a way, the flesh itself is not the otherworld but rather just contaminated by it. Beelzebub had something similar where the remains of his flesh became assimilated into chaos but those were deemed unnecessary so he cast them away in the process of building up his body made fully with chaos
Otherworldly beings or chaos can manifest as chaos matter but only within the Crimson Horizon as Beelzebub Implied returning to Crimson Horizon just to get more of it and calling it a scarce substance
I'd establish here that some got corrupted and became part of it. (Partially can recover) (Fully in mind and body cannot). They can also do it to regular humans and thus how they gain flesh. furthermore in the same scene defeating them simply returns them to a dusky smoke. In Grace's case she used some sort of binding to keep it tangible and materialized even after cutting it off which is how she was able to procure one as at this time the existence of Chaos matter was confirmed possible.
Those who manifested by being called upon
Then those who manifested based on the information and memories of those who perished (And Isaac kind of used some mind-boggling facts and logic to establish Grace as not fully dead causing the otherworld to cease and lose hold on her)
Then those are the thing that causes corruption which are those with unknown origin

As for its superiority. Yes. They Devour the worlds they occupy. Sky-dwellers who are from the normal world are powerless against them and subject to their capability to play with the world's history as they like. Astrals even with their primal beast and their information in Astral Shell alone are far too massive to be perceived by Ellis's 4 dimensional perception (Which spans across the entirety of spacetime) when he tries to access Lyria's memory/information which in turn also accesses all the Primal Beast in their Astral Shell that she has absorbed. As I already added before. Violet Knight says their difference is so fundamentally different and would consume the Sky-realm once fully manifested(From 32:19-36:00) even If they use Dragons(I could explain What dragons are more but long tangent) and Primal beast where one already controls and governs its entire history already yet would still be powerless to it.

Same with this. Technically, even characters and realms with Type 1 Beyond-Dimensional Existence are "beyond" the bounds of dimension (In the sense they're inherently outside of dimensional space). More evidence would be needed to demonstrate superiority, overall, like being described/shown as dwarfing dimensioned things, for example.

The Boundary dwarfs everything (until the Otherworldly beings reach it that is but they are both kinda of similar in a way they both are beyond dimension anyway).

I'll make 2 example points for this one. I kinda had to explain the dragon part in the end lol

Orologia's Case / Six Dragons.
The Six Dragons make up the reality and shape of the Sky-realm in a way that they are the Sky-realm itself
as I explained already on my first page. The "time existing concurrently" is what it is.
As established in the latest story there are indeed infinite timelines/worlds and in turn infinite stories (twice)
as there are infinite stories then there are also infinite of these Dragons or Orologia on their own stories

And Orologia can make Simulations of reality. and these simulations are actual worlds in themselves that when Orologia went beyond her capacity. these failed simulations started trying to manifest to overwrite the real reality. The Six Dragons have to wrestle with their countless simulation self
Orologia and The Six Dragons are still subject to the boundary and are still under the Law of Destruction and Rebirth and are affected by it.
Their personality is where their powers and data are stored. In comparison to the Boundary. Orologia has to use itself as an axis just to connect to it

Another one that directly mentions both Otherworld and Boundary is this scene in the latest main story (Although this is after The Otherworld has absorbed the clone of the Omnipotent) [Boundary and Estalucia is one in this context].

Lastly, I think this is somewhat important. This 5-minute explanation of Repti. Then Repti also explained that All of the creation is God but at the same time isn't.
so everything in existence is simply a part of the Omnipotent

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This reasoning seems odd to me. You seem to concede that the information given to us about Nil is indicative of -- if not concrete proof of -- it being "beyond dimensional" in the manner needed for the ability. Your objection seems to revolve around the fact that the Sphere of the Gods has received similar descriptions but has other disqualifying information that overrides these descriptions.

The conclusion being that these descriptions are insufficient across the entire verse due to being used inaccurately for the Sphere but that doesn't seem logical to me. Personally I would require similar disqualifying information be produced about Nil in order to disqualify it in the same manner as the Sphere rather than assuming that these descriptions are just entirely bunk within DC. The Sphere has also existed in some capacity for far far longer than Nil and thus has a lot more contradictory information about its nature, whereas Nil has only appeared in a small handful of comics.

I suppose I am not really against the remove (as I don't personally even believe that Nil is qualitatively superior to the Orrery per se, but that would get me burned at the stake here so meh) but the logic being used rubs me the wrong way, personally.

The point is based on in-verse precedent, largely: Usually, we'd have reason to think of the Monitor World as being non-dimensional in nature, that being the fact it's defined as a world of pure thought and etc. But we already see that this conclusion isn't necessarily valid from other parts of the verse, and it isn't true that this is only because said other parts have been around for longer than it. This statement, for instance, is from Final Crisis #2, which is part of the same comic event where Nil played a prominent role, and this is from Wonder Woman Vol. 5 #53, again a very recent comic.

From what I see, it seems we also currently accept the full extent of Hypertime as encompassing and stretching above Nil (Nil is currently 1-C. Hypertime is High 1-C), while also accepting Morrison's definition of Hypertime as a continuum of 3 temporal dimensions. Definitely kills any chances of BDE for Nil.

Dream created artifacts he gave to Cain and Abel before the dawn of Time. (Sandman Vol.2 #2)

Destruction mentions how much of a headache concepts are. They saw even the light of the Big Bang. (Sandman Vol.2 #44)

Each Dream points out they viewed the outline the First Circle made before Creation when rules were being enacted for the coming Universe in the Void. (Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #2)

Death herself recalls the event of the Big Bang, not the encore, but the entire thing when Yahweh first made Lucifer and Michael to enact Creation-making. (Lucifer Vol.1 #26)

In the meeting the Endless attend. They were abstract beings that are concepts of themselves such are the Endless. Beings that are what they represent such as the concept of dimensions, stars, and galaxies. (Sandman: Endless Night Vol.1 #1)

The Jin En Mok who are immortals that existed since the First Cosmos death are limited by time, space, causality, all rules in the Material World (Lucifer Vol.1 #7) until they merge as what they truly are: Void without Form. (Lucifer Vol.1 #21) The Endless are a higher order than them at least within Creation and possible even their True Form since they paid for their immortal by cheating.

Now retroactively they may appear younger than Yahweh or his Demiurgic servants. However, they existed since humans first appeared when Creation was anew. Gaudium claims humans has changed the facet of reality so many times in the years of Eternity. So paradoxically, despite being side-effects of Creation, they’re technically older than the God of the Covenant and his creations.

None of that really suggests Type 2 BDE for them, since it at best tells us that they predate things such as space and time, which doesn't necessarily translate into superiority over them. The Jin En Mok thing is Type 2 BDE, since Cestis for instance is specifically vaster than Creation and would destroy it when regaining her true form in the Void, but it's because of this that I question the Endless being above them (Since all the Endless save Death are bound to Creation, which the Jin En Mok can destroy)

anyways back to main point
Sub-space is 0 time, outside time
Great spirits- embody everything including that same sub space which wouldn't qualify but eh
And then, spirit of time
This "God" i talked of still fits this bill then right? Using this graphics

His nature is superior, outside, unbound by space and its dimensions literally outside temporal effect

If God is shown encompassing and dwarfing all the other things, then you certainly have a better case for Type 2. Where exactly is the evidence of that, though, besides that graph?

As for its superiority. Yes. They Devour the worlds they occupy. Sky-dwellers who are from the normal world are powerless against them and subject to their capability to play with the world's history as they like. As I already added before. Violet Knight says their difference is so fundamentally different and would consume the Sky-realm once fully manifested(From 32:19-36:00) even If they use Dragons(I could explain What dragons are more but long tangent) and Primal beast where one already controls and governs its entire history already yet would still be powerless to it.

Neither of those are evidence of the "superiority in nature" needed for Type 2, since those are only superiority in power, and not an ontological superiority over the very features of spacetime. The latter statement, in particular, has two interpretations that both kill the chance for Type 2 BDE, that being:

1. It's talking about a literal difference between higher and lower-dimensional space, which obviously runs counter to the ability.

2. It's talking about how much they dwarf things below them, in which case "literally on a whole other dimension" just means "on a whole other level." That's verbiage which shows up a lot in Japanese media, I notice: "His power is of a completely different dimension!". Even Dragon Ball has it. Likely because the term for "dimension," 次元, also often just means "level."

Astrals even with their primal beast and their information in Astral Shell alone are far too massive to be perceived by Ellis's 4 dimensional perception (Which spans across the entirety of spacetime) when he tries to access Lyria's memory/information which in turn also accesses all the Primal Beast in their Astral Shell that she has absorbed.

Do you have the scan for that?

The Boundary dwarfs everything (until the Otherworldly beings reach it that is but they are both kinda of similar in a way they both are beyond dimension anyway).

I'll make 2 example points for this one. I kinda had to explain the dragon part in the end lol

Orologia's Case / Six Dragons.
The Six Dragons make up the reality and shape of the Sky-realm in a way that they are the Sky-realm itself
as I explained already on my first page. The "time existing concurrently" is what it is.
As established in the latest story there are indeed infinite timelines/worlds and in turn infinite stories (twice)
as there are infinite stories then there are also infinite of these Dragons or Orologia on their own stories

And Orologia can make Simulations of reality. and these simulations are actual worlds in themselves that when Orologia went beyond her capacity. these failed simulations started trying to manifest to overwrite the real reality. The Six Dragons have to wrestle with their countless simulation self
Orologia and The Six Dragons are still subject to the boundary and are still under the Law of Destruction and Rebirth and are affected by it.
Their personality is where their powers and data are stored. In comparison to the Boundary. Orologia has to use itself as an axis just to connect to it

Is the point here basically that the Boundary is the storehouse of information that also gathers even the information about the essential features of reality? If so, that is not sufficient for Type 2 either, no, since obviously this doesn't inform us about any "size-like" relationship taking place between the two here.

Lastly, I think this is somewhat important. This 5-minute explanation of Repti. Then Repti also explained that All of the creation is God but at the same time isn't.
so everything in existence is simply a part of the Omnipotent

The second scan talks about how, because the Omnipotent permeates the entire world, consolidating the entire world should likewise bring back the Omnipotent, and he even says that this entails "molding the entire world into a single entity."

Normally, that'd be counterevidence for Type 2, if anything, but it looks like the Boundary (Which seems to be non-dimensional in nature) is described as part of the world in this case (The "ends of the world," specifically), so in that case the scan is... nothing, really. It neither supports nor runs counter your claim.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

None of that really suggests Type 2 BDE for them, since it at best tells us that they predate things such as space and time, which doesn't necessarily translate into superiority over them. The Jin En Mok thing is Type 2 BDE, since Cestis for instance is specifically vaster than Creation and would destroy it when regaining her true form in the Void, but it's because of this that I question the Endless being above them (Since all the Endless save Death are bound to Creation, which the Jin En Mok can destroy)

Dream literally has made his own Creation with the Genesis Egg mentioned in Sandman: Universe which was first introduced in the Books of Magic something that the Glory even found surprising. Not to mention Morpheus with just a few thousand dreams make to remake all of Existence. Dream embodies something greater than time and space given that same concept can shape gods and produce realms greater than the concept of time, space, causality, etc.

They never truly went rogue with their power but it outscales all the gods including beings like Azazel, Odin, and all pantheons. They should Type 2 BDE since they all transcends the Material Plane which houses said concepts not to mention each Endless embodies their concept to the fullest that reaches all the way to the entire Totality of Creation. I think it’s reasonable they are Type 2. There’s more to suggest Endless > Jin En Mok. On several occasion other than Yahweh, they far are greater than anyone in the Cosmos and are the highest order beyond the gods. The Dream of the First Cosmos heavily suggest something to beyond much things and all Dreams’ scale to each other.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I do agree with Ultima on the Hypertime bit, because the wiki currently accepts linetime, planetime, and cubetime as higher temporal dimensions in comparison to the entire map. Which, there is literally no reason to.

Linetime is very obviously not something that encompasses the entire map, it's a damn timeline, the Vanishing point exists at the end of its time, which is verifiably only in the Orrery, and neither is Planetime, and yet, the reasoning for this is that "they are a part of hypertime, and thus, have to be beyond the map" which is in my opinion pretty nonsensical.

Although the Sphere of Gods, is most definitely not a "higher dimension" in a spatial sense for sure. There is frankly, a stupid amount of evidence all proving that space just doesn't exist in the sphere.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Neither of those are evidence of the "superiority in nature" needed for Type 2, since those are only superiority in power, and not an ontological superiority over the very features of spacetime. The latter statement, in particular, has two interpretations that both kill the chance for Type 2 BDE, that being:

1. It's talking about a literal difference between higher and lower-dimensional space, which obviously runs counter to the ability.

2. It's talking about how much they dwarf things below them, in which case "literally on a whole other dimension" just means "on a whole other level." That's verbiage which shows up a lot in Japanese media, I notice: "His power is of a completely different dimension!". Even Dragon Ball has it. Likewise because the term for "dimension," 次元, also often just means "level."

This is how Violet Knight tried to described it base on his experience with the thing battling it alone for decades.
But even then he kinda also said he doesn't really understand it either. Just like true King and Loki. And Violet Knight is a knight not a scholar the same as Ares.
So I guess your point was right that this could just be a verbiage. So I'll concede this point.

Do you have the scan for that?

Bear with me here since I'am on mobile

This is how Lyria absorbs Primal beast.
As her role is to collect Sky-Essence manifested by giving it Astral power to give it form.
To have an understanding of the makeup of primal beasts. Here Loki attempted to turn Captain into a primal beast using the concept of an Axis that runs through infinite worlds and infinite stories.
This is the currently accepted HDE of primal beast

• Higher-Dimensional Existence: Primal Beast are entities reborn to a higher-dimensional existence by the Astrals[13] and they exist in a higher position than the Sky-realm's plane.[14] Their Data caused Ellis to have a Data Flow[15] that has a hyperdimensional perception[16] and sees 3-dimensional space as flat[17] and his influence can manifest physically.[18] Primarchs, Primal Beast and Astrals who hail from Astral Realm can also plainly see distortion unlike Ordinary Sky-dwellers whom Beelzebub considers Infinitesimal[19].

The last scan has a bit of tidbits about dimensional boundary (not "Boundary" as Estalucia) as well.
Lucilius is imprisoned in Space between dimensions (Which is the Canvass as Lucio explained but different from Crimson Horizon) with the remains of Etemenanki.

Is the point here basically that the Boundary is the storehouse of information that also gathers even the information about the essential features of reality? If so, that is not sufficient for Type 2 either, no, since obviously this doesn't inform us about any "size-like" relationship taking place between the two here.

I'm under the assumption that
Information stored inside Orologia's personality contains actual physical simulations of reality and these personalities are merely information stored within the boundary. And there are infinite stories. But Estalucia and Boundary are mostly filled with the power of God which is described here as encompassing both Providence and Chaos but neither

But this isn't a qualifying factor then I'll concede it as probably my lack of understanding on what constitutes as Size-like and dwarfing in the context of wiki

The second scan talks about how, because the Omnipotent permeates the entire world, consolidating the entire world should likewise bring back the Omnipotent, and he even says that this entails "molding the entire world into a single entity."

Normally, that'd be counterevidence for Type 2, if anything, but it looks like the Boundary (Which seems to be non-dimensional in nature) is described as part of the world in this case (The "ends of the world," specifically), so in that case the scan is... nothing, really. It neither supports nor runs counter your claim.

Forgive me for once again I forgot to add that this is just one partial image of God which is what he described.
Repti saw the Omnipotent Clone and almost died because of it and ever since then he became obsessed with it

But since this is a nothing burger for BDE I guess I concede this part.


If I may have a bit more time. This wouldn't technically affect their tiers? Because I only used these BDE factors for BDE and not to try to use it as a Quantitative superiority for another tier (except the whole verbiage of Violet Knight about it not being strength or weakness)