Removing hax resistances from Shadow, Espio, and Silver

[JJSliderman]

Because it's saying "the characters all have a limited resistance, but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't if the character is having a good day"

 

[Theuser789]

No? The limited resistance is because if the Ifrit controls the other they can fight back, simple as

 

[JJSliderman]

The limited resistance is what's being used to argue why the character that isn't haxxed is the way they are in some routes but are haxxed in others, without giving a real explanation why the resistance works in some routes and doesn't in others.

And the Ifrit being passive still hasn't really been demonstrated, if it's not passive then it can just be argued the other four characters weren't targeted at all.

 

[DragonLord]

The limited resistance is what's being used to argue why the character that isn't haxxed is the way they are in some routes but are haxxed in others, without giving a real explanation why the resistance works in some routes and doesn't in others.

And the Ifrit being passive still hasn't really been demonstrated, if it's not passive then it can just be argued the other four characters weren't targeted at all.

I gave you an explanation for both, in fact the first response on this thread is the evidence it’s passive

 

[Theuser789]

This is going in circles at this point

 

[JJSliderman]

It being passive isn't really the only explanation there, the Ifrit could have just targeted the characters after it woke up.

 

[DragonLord]

It being passive isn't really the only explanation there, the Ifrit could have just targeted the characters after it woke up.

And I gave you reasons that’s unlikely

 

[JJSliderman]

And those are?

 

[Theuser789]

the Ifrit could have just targeted the characters after it woke up.

Proof? YOU are the one who provived no evidence (self admited) even though you are the OP

 

[DragonLord]

And those are?

There’s no indication it’s targeted at all

Ifrit is basically mindless and animalistic and shows no indication of there being any planned targets

Ifrit does the Hax before they even see Tails or know who he is, doing it even before they came from the ground, hell Tails got controlled mid sentence of there awakening

 

[JJSliderman]

The problem is most of this evidence hinges on the Ifrit seeing the characters when it's a PSP game with no real "cutscenes" other than the character portraits and text boxes, arguing that Ifrit didn't see the characters is on the same level of it seeing the characters. Characters getting controlled mid-sentence is common with fictional mind control, not evidence of it being passive.

It didn't have to know Tails, Tails could have just been the first thing it saw so it acted on instinct and haxxed it. There's no indication it's passive.

The only argument that holds weight is it being mindless and animalistic, and if that's true then [citation needed]

 

[DragonLord]

The problem is most of this evidence hinges on the Ifrit seeing the characters when it's a PSP game with no real "cutscenes" other than the character portraits and text boxes, arguing that Ifrit didn't see the characters is on the same level of it seeing the characters. Characters getting controlled mid-sentence is common with fictional mind control, not evidence of it being passive.

You can see Ifrit coming from the ground right after the cutscene and Tails gets controlled mid sentence, he was saying what Ifrit was going to do right after they realized Ifrit was waking up

 

[JJSliderman]

It doesn't really come out of the ground, just from a lower altitude. It still could have seen the characters. And the Ifrit could have just picked any random time to control Tails.

 

[DragonLord]

It doesn't really come out of the ground, just from a lower altitude. It still could have seen the characters. And the Ifrit could have just picked any random time to control Tails.

You can see the explosion in the ground of where there coming from, and there literally just waking up, the moment we see in the level is the first thing Ifrit sees, which is after Tails gets controlled

 

[JJSliderman]

You can see the explosion in the ground of where there coming from, and there literally just waking up, the moment we see in the level is the first thing Ifrit sees, which is after Tails gets controlled

Ifrit had already woken up before the boss started, arguing that the first thing Ifrit sees is after the cutscene ends is also headcanon.

Either way all I really got out of this was:

If Ifrit's hax is passive then the resistances are okay, with the inconsistency that the limited resistance on the other four characters randomly works for no adequately explained reason besides plot convenience.

If it's not passive, then Ifrit could have chosen the targets it wanted to hit, either out of intelligence or pure instinct, and that could explain why Shadow and Silver and Espio weren't affected (because they weren't targeted). This would also remove the inconsistency of the power of the limited resistance, since only one character would be affected by the hax at a time. The only argument for why the hax would be used on the other characters at that point is "it doesn't make sense for Ifrit not to use its hax on all the characters", which should be proven.

 

[Theuser789]

then Ifrit could have chosen the targets it wanted to hit, either out of intelligence or pure instinct, and that could explain why Shadow and Silver and Espio weren't affected (because they weren't targeted). This would also remove the inconsistency of the power of the limited resistance, since only one character would be affected by the hax at a time. The only argument for why the hax would be used on the other characters at that point is "it doesn't make sense for Ifrit not to use its hax on all the characters", which should be proven.

YOU are the one not bringing any proof to the table, none of this has any proof, at all, show evidence, refute the evidence posted, or concede, don't just ignore it like you are doing right now

 

[DragonLord]

Ifrit had already woken up before the boss started, arguing that the first thing Ifrit sees is after the cutscene ends is also headcanon

Awoken does not inherently mean there fully conscious and can see everything, it takes me minutes if not hours to fully wake up in the morning, seeing as what we’re shown is Ifrit coming from the ground after Tails was controlled, thats the only point we know where it looks like there fully awake, unless you can show evidence against that, in the end it’s not headcanon, it’s what’s on screen

 

[Theuser789]

then Ifrit could have chosen the targets it wanted to hit, either out of intelligence or pure instinct, and that could explain why Shadow and Silver and Espio weren't affected (because they weren't targeted).

This is the only headcanon that is this thread, you are also completely twisting the "limited" resistance argument as well

 

[JJSliderman]

I feel like it requires more mental gymnastics to give the resistances

"Shadow and company aren't shown as haxxed, therefore they have resistances"
"Ifrit isn't shown trying to hax them and the game doesn't demonstrate anything indicating they are fighting the hax"
"It's passive"
"But some characters are affected while others aren't"
"They have a limited resistance that sometimes work and sometimes doesn't for plot reasons+Ifrit did the hax when it woke up immediately"
"Or it just targeted"
"You can't target opponents when you just wake up+Ifrit is mindless"

If there was real solid evidence of Shadow and company resisting the hax that would be fine.

 

[DragonLord]

I feel like it requires more mental gymnastics to give the resistances

"Shadow and company aren't shown as haxxed, therefore they have resistances"
"Ifrit isn't shown trying to hax them and the game doesn't demonstrate anything indicating they are fighting the hax"
"It's passive"
"But some characters are affected while others aren't"
"They have a limited resistance that sometimes work and sometimes doesn't for plot reasons+Ifrit did the hax when it woke up immediately"
"Or it just targeted"
"You can't target opponents when you just wake up+Ifrit is mindless"

If there was real solid evidence of Shadow and company resisting the hax that would be fine.

Literally all of these we’ve explained to you, I don’t want to be mean, but it feels like you aren’t reading

 

[JED]

At this point this is going on ad nauseum. As the OP of the thread, you are the one who needs to provide substantial evidence as to why your interpretation is more valid than the others. And “this doesn’t feel right” and “I don’t think so” is not evidence. So unless you can provide actual solid evidence that the accepted interpretation is not the right one, then this thread should be concluded.

 

[JJSliderman]

The reasoning for the characters having the full resistance is flawed, Ifrit isn't shown trying to hax them and the arguments for it being passive are arguments on the same level as it being targeting. The reasoning for why the characters without the full resistance are haxxed boil down to "plot convenience made it so one character was haxxed and the other wasn't".

 

[Theuser789]

"Shadow and company aren't shown as haxxed, therefore they have resistances"

This is someone's first thoughts, no mental gymnastics here

"Ifrit isn't shown trying to hax them and the game doesn't demonstrate anything indicating they are fighting the hax"

What? This is a mental gymnastic created from your interpretaton, not yours since we assume he passively haxes them

"It's passive"

Not a mental gymnastic, explained

"But some characters are affected while others aren't"

Because some resist and others don't

"They have a limited resistance that sometimes work and sometimes doesn't for plot reasons+Ifrit did the hax when it woke up immediately"

Honestly, are you maliciously misinterpretating these simple points? Because I can't see how you can't understand something so simple

Here, breaking it down for the fourth time, Sonic and co don't have the resistance listed because we don't know which route is the canon, however they have their own reasons to have limited resistance, which could explain why the Ifrit can't hax the both of them at the same time. The latter half is explained

"Or it just targeted"

Proof or concede

"You can't target opponents when you just wake up+Ifrit is mindless"

Not a mental gymnastic, and explained

Now here's YOUR mental gymnastics
"Nobody resists the Ifrit's hax, therefore he targets only the opposite character just cause, also he doesn't target Shadow and co just cause as well, even though according to me it's smart enough to pick how to control", ****, according to you Ifrit could just hax everyone but he just didn't, you are the one creating plotholes

Show evidence in favor of the downgrade or concede

 

[JJSliderman]

Fine, then can you please give the reasons for each character having the resistance or lack thereof they do, and why Ifrit has passive hax, so I can be clear going forward.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Fine, then can you please give the reasons for each character having the resistance or lack thereof they do, and why Ifrit has passive hax, so I can be clear going forward.

Reversal of the Burden Of Proof, what kind of a pathetic movement is this even.

A little question, if someone induces an certain ability by their mere presence all the time then how the **** the ability isn't passive?

 

[JJSliderman]

Because clearly the ability isn't passive, only certain characters are affected in the scenarios where it does affect characters.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

You are going to insist in this ridiculous ad nauseam or try to prove your points by showing an actual solid evidence of the Ifrit being smart enough to perform EVERY single action of what you have previously claimed?

We have already proven the ability is passive by the literal first comment of this topic.

 

[JJSliderman]

It's literally not passive though, if it was passive it would work on both characters.

 

[Theuser789]

As Dragon posted, Ifrit mindhaxes Tails the moment they get near it:



There's also the fact never ever in the game it's stated that it targets certain foes, only that it can bind people souls and all

Shadow, Silver, Espio (and Metal I guess but he is a robot) can stand near it and no be haxed in any story, only fighting Metal 3.0, furhermore Nega never asks the Ifrit to target them in anyway with it's hax. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Rouge can be controlled when they aren't the protagonist, due to a lack of knoweledge on what is the canon route we can't claim which one for sure has the reisistances, if Sega came out and said "Sonic's story is canon' then he would have a resistance for example, however they have a limited resistance anyways because they are able to fight against it somewhat.

Now go use this on your offsite debates, clearly the thread's intention

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

There's also the fact never ever in the game it's stated that it targets certain foes, only that it can bind people souls and all

Shadow, Silver, Espio (and Metal I guess but he is a robot) can stand near it and no be haxed in any story, only fighting Metal 3.0, furhermore Nega never asks the Ifrit to target them in anyway with it's hax. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Rouge can be controlled when they aren't the protagonist, due to a lack of knoweledge on what is the canon route we can't claim which one for sure has the reisistances, if Sega came out and said "Sonic's story is canon' then he would have a resistance for example, however they have a limited resistance anyways because they are able to fight against it somewhat.

Now go use this on your offsite debates, clearly the thread's intention

Also doesn't Metal Sonic have Inorganic physiology by himself? It would explain that he is not affected by the soul hax in exchange of that.

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah, he is a robot

 

[JJSliderman]

The problem is that if neither route is more canon than the other, then that means they're equally as possible, which is literally impossible. If Sonic is immune to Ifrit, then Tails' route can't happen, and vice versa.

And the argument that the resistances shift between stories is also headcanon. Ifrit is only seen haxxing one character at a time, so it's equally possible its potency is just limited to affecting one character at a time. You use the argument that I'm headcanoning to say that Ifrit doesn't target, while also using headcanon to explain why the characters are affected and not affected on different routes.

Basically, if it was passive and could affect multiple characters, then we have routes that contradict each other while also being equally as feasible to use, and the only argument that can make them not contradict each other is plot convenience (which then hurts the validity of Shadow and company resisting the hax)

 

[Theuser789]

The problem is that if neither route is more canon than the other, then that means they're equally as possible, which is literally impossible. If Sonic is immune to Ifrit, then Tails' route can't happen, and vice versa.

That's why Sonic doesn't have a resistance, we don't know what is canon therefore we can't claim he has one, however each route works as an alt timeline to each other

That's not what headcanon works, why would I ramdomly assume the ifrit can only target one person with no evidence? THIS is your main problem, without evidence "what ifs" are meaningless, "it's equally possible" doesn't matter without evidence, I am not using headcanon to say anything, I am just saying what happens in each route, the other character is not affected, therefore they resist otherwise they would be haxed, logic, stop shifting the burden of proof, YOU are the one who needs to show evidence that you are right, YOU are the OP contesting the resistance, YOU are the one who needs to show he can only target one person, saying "my opinion is possible" is worthless by itself

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Agree with JJ, based on sonic as per usual

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

You use the argument that I'm headcanoning to say that Ifrit doesn't target, while also using headcanon to explain why the characters are affected and not affected on different routes.

Basically I can use the same card on the sleeve to describe the bad equivalence of your Metal Sonic example in extension of that, since Metal by himself should have inorganic physiology by the very fact of himself being a robot, unaffected by any kind of soul manip or mind manip.

The antagonist role isn't a good way in trying to prove the said point of what you have said in the second place.

 

[JJSliderman]

Metal having the resistance is fine because he's a robot.

Either way, if the Sonic and Knuckles routes are equally as valid to the canon as the Shadow and Silver routes, then in all the hax routes Ifrit only uses it hax on one character and burden of proof is needed to say that it can affect more than one character. The limited resistance showcased by the characters that are haxxed is clearly not enough to overcome the hax, and arguments that it is are based on headcanon that the resistance works better in some routes than others for no adequately explained reason. The argument the full resistance shifts between routes is also based on headcanon.

 

[Theuser789]

Either way, if the Sonic and Knuckles routes are equally as valid to the canon as the Shadow and Silver routes,

Duuuuuuuuude, when I said we don't know which routes are canon, I was talking about Sonic vs Tails, or Knuckles vs Rouge, not the two different teams, all teams stories are canon, is who the main character is the dubious canon, this already debunks all the rest of your ad nauseum "nah YOU are the headcanon" comment invalid

and arguments that it is are based on headcanon that the resistance works better in some routes than others for no adequately explained reason.

No, the argument is that in a route they can resist, and in the other they don't, just like in a route they can fight a certain character, and in the other they don't, that's literally it, not a headcanon, different routes having different events is literally what happens, have you ever played Rivals 2?

 

[JJSliderman]

How are all the stories canon when all of them have the characters defeat Ifrit at the end?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Also, theuser you really should start calming down on these sonic threads, you have a tendency to get aggressive

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

How are all the stories canon when all of them have the characters defeat Ifrit at the end?

The Ifrit's defeat is canon to all of the stories, how is that a good equivalence even?