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Rosalina Low 2-C Downgrade or AP Justification Revision

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The real cal howard said:
No.

Also I love how people are saying Mario profiles are a mess even though Rosalina's profile has by far changed the least over the past several years.
A profile being unchanged doesn't mean it's not messy though. I/O were left untouched for years and look how awful they were. So is Masadaverse. And many other works here

Time's has nothing to do with a profile quality
 
@SleepyTBubble

If anything, it's indicative of the opposite.

@The real cal howard

And besides, only Matthew made that statement - not I, or anyone else.

I don't know anything about the state of other Mario profiles, and frankly, I don't care.

I only care about this one, because I heard things about it that I didn't believe were entirely accurate.

And so I decided to take action.
 
I keep my position, Warren makes more sense and the proposal is magnificent, if they can prove the actual tier then it would be no problem for them aand if not then we have a more accurate profile.
 
Imagine if we did that more often. Hey, I don't think Dragon Ball is tier 2. I'm going to downgrade them until you give me the proof I desire.
 
The real cal howard said:
Imagine if we did that more often. Hey, I don't think Dragon Ball is tier 2. I'm going to downgrade them until you give me the proof I desire.
This is a strawman of the current events.

Firstly, you would have to debunk the current AP justification, and then secondly, you would need the oppostion to state that their only bit of proof of Tier 2 Dragon Ball is in a scan that they can't attain at that moment. Then you would need two experts, one for each side of the argument, to take the argument to one of their walls and debate it out. Finally, you would need both parties of the argument to have extremely busy personal lives where they decide that a compromise is better than endless bickering.

None of this is applicable with Tier 2 Dragon Ball. As those who have tried to debunk it have had their debunks rebutted and points disproven to the point where, IIRC, it has become a rule on the wiki to stop making the therads with the same arguments.


Cal, I know you like Mario, but there is no need to get petty.
 
Okay one, anyone who knows me knows I'm always petty.

Two, I will reiterate my lints. Yeah. The Lumas stopped the black hole. By sacrificing themselves. The resulting Big Bang? Nope. All Rosalina. Who else could've done it? The Lumas just yeeted themselves into oblivion. Another thing. Bowser didn't survive the Low 2-C event. The reset revived him. Because again, the Lumas didn't perform the reset, they just destroyed the Low 2-C black hole.
 
The real cal howard said:
Because again, the Lumas didn't perform the reset, they just destroyed the Low 2-C black hole.
Wouldnt this save the scaling also? Rosalina scales above the Lumas, so even if she didnt do the reset, she'd still be Low 2-C for being above beings that destroyed a Low 2-C black hole.
 
The real cal howard said:
Two, I will reiterate my lints. Yeah. The Lumas stopped the black hole. By sacrificing themselves. The resulting Big Bang? Nope. All Rosalina. Who else could've done it? The Lumas just yeeted themselves into oblivion. Another thing. Bowser didn't survive the Low 2-C event. The reset revived him. Because again, the Lumas didn't perform the reset, they just destroyed the Low 2-C black hole.
Proof of any of this? Because otherwise, this is just your headcanon.

And to be honest, I don't believe the universe was "reset" at all. A more accurate explaination is that the universe was reborn with small variations.


After the universe is reborn, Rosalina makes this speech on how due to the Cycle of Life, when a star dies it is reborn into a new star given time, she also says that Cycle of Life is never the same.

When we see Mario back on his homeworld with Peach, we see that there are variations in the universe to what the universe was like before the Black Hole.

For instance, all the galaxies in the game are now in close proximity to Mario's planet, which wasn't the case at the beginning of the game.

So it seems that old universe died and that the universe was reborn with small variations due to the Cycle of Life and not Rosalina.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Wouldnt this save the scaling also? Rosalina scales above the Lumas, so even if she didnt do the reset, she'd still be Low 2-C for being above beings that destroyed a Low 2-C black hole.
Every Luma killing themselves tried to stop the black hole from destroying the universe, and even then, the universe still died and was reborn.

And there isn't any evidence that Rosalina scales above a Luma, and especially not the entirety of Luma civilization.

There are claims that Rosalina would scale above via creating Grand Stars - which can destroy the universe, but when I asked for the scans, it was stated that the website with them was down.
 
The real cal howard said:
Because Rosalina's a proven reality warper even without this?
That doesn't mean anything, nor does it prove that Rosalina reset the universe.
 
It proves that instead of the universe magically putting everything back the way it was in a rebirth, the magical character with cosmic powers who is already debatably responsible for this in the first place put things where she wanted. Instead of a rebirth not starting from the beginning.
 
Warren Valion said:
And there isn't any evidence that Rosalina scales above a Luma, and especially not the entirety of Luma civilization.
She is the Luma's mother/creator. Pretty sure that in and of itself is evidence.
 
The real cal howard said:
It proves that instead of the universe magically putting everything back the way it was in a rebirth, the magical character with cosmic powers who is already debatably responsible for this in the first place put things where she wanted. Instead of a rebirth not starting from the beginning.
That's not reseting the unverse then - that would be recreating it. And if Rosalina could just save the universe like that, then why didn't she just do so?

None of what you are saying makes any logical sense:

  • Why didn't she just stop the black hole from destroying everything if she had the power to do so?
  • Why would the Lumas have to kill themselves if their was no need to in the first place because Rosalina could apparently just fix everything?
  • Why would Rosalina talk about the Cycle of Life and how everything that dies is reborn slightly differently right after the universe was reborn, and why would she say, "So...you'll see" after her speech about the Cycle of Life if it meant absolutely nothing?
  • Where is the proof that Rosalina did any of this barring saying, "She has magic powers and stuff so she clearly did it!"?
Where is the evidence?


Cal, either provide physical proof of your claims or admit you don't have it at this current time and just stop - it's both annoying and unbecoming of a staff member.

If you can't handle something like this, then remove yourself from this situation.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
She is the Luma's mother/creator. Pretty sure that in and of itself is evidence.
This is your misinterpretation of the Lore.

She is NOT the Luma's actual mother or creator - she is their surrogate mother, not their actual one. She takes care of the Lumas, she doesn't birth or create them. In her own words, the "Cycle of Life" is what creates stars, not her.

You can read her backstory here.
 
Yes, and why does Peach save herself when she has matched and even beaten Bowser on several occasions?

Also don't talk to me about proof when you're saying only her barriers have universal durability so you just assumed she put one around herself despite the fact that she doesn't have one in the final cutscene.
 
The real cal howard said:
Also don't talk to me about proof when you're saying only her barriers have universal durability so you just assumed she put one around herself despite the fact that she doesn't have one in the final cutscene.
You are misinterpeting what is happening in the ending:

The final cutscene shows us everything being sucked into the black hole, all Lumas throwing themselves into the black hole in what seems like a vain attempt to try and stabilize it, and then it shows us the warping of Space-Time until there is a flash of light.

Then the camera reveals Rosalina standing in front of Mario, asking Mario if he can hear the sound of baby stars.

She then delievers her speech about how the Cycle of Life means that how the stars that have died will be reborn and that Mario will see what she means by that, then it shows Mario waking up on his planet and welcoming the birth of a new universe.


The cutscene doesn't show Rosalina in a forcefield, but it also doesn't show Mario in one either.That's because the danger of the Black Hole had passed at that moment in time, and thus the need for a forcefield doesn't exist anymore.

We don't see Rosalina place a forcefield around Mario in the cutscene either, the only reason we know that she did that was because the Prima guide stated that she did.

So stating that, "she doesn't have one in the final cutscene" is facetious.


And I'm sorry, Cal, but that's how the Burden of Proof works.

You are making the positive claim, that being that Rosalina tanked the destruction of the universe, reset according to her desires, and that she can create Grand Stars, and I am making the negative claim, that she can't do any of the things you claim she can do.

The person making the positive claim is the one that has to prove himself, not the opposite.
 
I would prefer if Dino Ranger Black was more active in this thread. He is the most knowledgeable staff member regarding Mario as far as I am aware.
 
Antvasima said:
I would prefer if Dino Ranger Black was more active in this thread. He is the most knowledgeable staff member regarding Mario as far as I am aware.
Dino and I are discussing the same thing on his wall here.

We are deciding to make a compromise on the topic, my suggestion is in a previous comment, I just await his response.
 
I still agree with Dino Ranger Black and Cal Howard. There's no reason to assume her magic is any weaker than her forcefields when she's shown to be quite versatile with her powers. Same with her Reality Warping abilities. Anyway, she has been shown to create Lumas in this scene which I posted above. Also, very few Lumas turn into Power Stars or Grand Stars, implying the ones that do turn into Grand Stars are considered greater than the ones that turn into galaxies.

Also, Rosalina is the type of character who's very powerful but doesn't really fight. She merely wanted to see Mario in action would more so be the reason and was watching over him throughout the game. Her role is more akin to the Golden Goddesses from Zelda. Also, the Universe was clearly a space-time reset since everything was back to normal in an instant. In the case of a regular destruction and recreation, the universe would inherently need to re-expand and repopulate over the course of eons. And Space-Time resets are normally done by a powerful entity.

The only downgrade I could agree with is removing the "At least", but she's still Low 2-C for certain. We had numerous discussions on the issue. Also, the cutscene of the Lumas all getting sucked up and Rosalina rescuing Mario from the blast, and her legit being the one that returns him to the Mushroom Kingdom basically shows she was above and beyond everything that happened. Azathoth was also someone who agreed with Rosalina's Low 2-C key. And none of the other cast scales from her because game mechanics are a thing. She could stomp everyone if she really wanted to.
 
I still support her only scaling to this with magic and not physicality. Otherwise the main cast would be Low 2-C scaling off her.
 
Is it even implied she created the Luma in the victory animation? Also if it is then she just caused Armageddon to happen since she created two Lubba
 
If the existence of two Lubba is such an armageddon, then she should be 1-A
 
>Anyway, she has been shown to create Lumas in this scene which I posted above. Also, very few Lumas turn into Power Stars or Grand Stars, implying the ones that do turn into Grand Stars are considered greater than the ones that turn into galaxies.

I have made my rebuttal to his on Dino's wall:

"There is nothing that is implying that Rosalina is creating the Lumas in these scenes.

There are Lumas always around her, the other animations show us this, and thus it is more reasonable to think that Lumas were always with her, flying around doing whatever Lumas like to do, as shown in the other game's animations."


And with Rosalina's speech about how stars are born from other stars through the Cycle of Life, it is more reasonable to assume that Rosalina is, in fact, not creating Lumas in that scene - as nothing implies to the fact that she could do that.

>Also, the Universe was clearly a space-time reset since everything was back to normal in an instant. In the case of a regular destruction and recreation, the universe would inherently need to re-expand and repopulate over the course of eons. And Space-Time resets are normally done by a powerful entity.

Reseting time would be the exact same as a recreation of time in the fact that it would inherently mean that the universe needs to re-expand and repopulate, so using this argument as a counter is counterintuitive.

And besides, the universe has clearly not been reset, but reborn for a myriad of reasons.

Firstly, the statements made by Rosalina talking about how stars and things that are reborn in the Cycle of Life are slightly different from how they originally are, and how Mario will see what she means soon, is an implication of this, which is further proven by the differences in the universe that I mentioned in a previous comment.

Not to mention the fact, that Mario is stated to welcome the birth of a new galaxy/universe.

>Also, the cutscene of the Lumas all getting sucked up and Rosalina rescuing Mario from the blast, and her legit being the one that returns him to the Mushroom Kingdom basically shows she was above and beyond everything that happened. Azathoth was also someone who agreed with Rosalina's Low 2-C key. And none of the other cast scales from her because game mechanics are a thing. She could stomp everyone if she really wanted to.

Rosalina using a forcefield to protect Mario and then bring him home once the battle is over is not indicative that she is beyond everything that happened, it isn't indictive of anything barring that she is a nice person who cares to save her friend and brings him home once he is done with his quest in helping her and her family.

And Azathoth agreeing to Low 2-C Rosalina in he past means nothing. People can change their minds, new arguments and new evidence has come to light of the opposite, and Azathoth isn't an all-knowing person, just because he agreed to a belief, does not make that belief a legitimate one.

You need to prove that she wouldn't scale to the others because, "game mechanics" - just saying that game mechanics is the reason she is comparable to Mario has no weight without proof. By this reasoning, I can argue that Princess Peach doesn't scale to the other Mario characters, and that it is just game mechanics that makes her seem comparable.


You like say that lore dictates her as some cosmic being above everyone else, but it really doesn't.

Her backstory paints her as a normal person who found a family with the Lumas, and thus became their caretaker, Bowser is then able to appear and steal away her precious family from her without her able to stop him - and despite the fact that apperntly she is superior to everyone in the verse, and has the power to create Grand Stars, she was still marooned in the middle of space in a spaceship she can't power without Power and Grand Stars until Mario came along, whose help she begged for.

Nothing indicates that's she this all-powerful deity that all of you have been proclaiming.
 
Actually, there was a long discussion on this thread. And to be frank, not much is really new here tbh. Not to mention there's far too much to debunk the assumptions implying she doesn't have the power to so anything. Bowser stealing her Power stars isn't the same thing as actually fighting her. And she's naturally capable of flying really fast without ships. Cal also said on said thread it's pretty obvious she recreates the universe, and Saikou saying it's cut and paste she undoes what Bowser did.

The Peach example is also really bad; she literally has her own game where she defeats Bowser on her own. Rosalina is an NPC in Galaxy and mainly appeared in SM3DW due to fan service. And Mario Party basically just balances every character to be the same. Reason Goombas aren't comparable to Mario. We also had numerous discussion and even an official word from Nintendo saying all Mario games are canon.

Lastly, there was more recent mentions about Rosalina being implied to have experience multiple universal resets; but Cal hasn't posted scans of this.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, there was a long discussion on this thread. And to be frank, not much is really new here tbh. Not to mention there's far too much to debunk the assumptions implying she doesn't have the power to so anything. Bowser stealing her Power stars isn't the same thing as actually fighting her. And she's naturally capable of flying really fast without ships. Cal also said on said thread it's pretty obvious she recreates the universe, and Saikou saying it's cut and paste she undoes what Bowser did.
The Peach example is also really bad; she literally has her own game where she defeats Bowser on her own. Rosalina is an NPC in Galaxy and mainly appeared in SM3DW due to fan service. And Mario Party basically just balances every character to be the same. Reason Goombas aren't comparable to Mario. We also had numerous discussion and even an official word from Nintendo saying all Mario games are canon.

Lastly, there was more recent mentions about Rosalina being implied to have experience multiple universal resets; but Cal hasn't posted scans of this.
Bowser would have to encoutner Rosalina if he came onto her spaceship and stole its energy source. To imply that Rosalina didn't know, nor tried to stop him from stealing what she considers her family is facetious.

And even if you try to argue that Bowser bamboozled Rosalina and stole her Power and Grand Stars by outsmarting her - that doesn't explain why would Rosalina be stranded in space if she can just causally create Grand Stars which can power her ship.

If she is always Low 2-C, why didn't she just go and kill Bowser after he stole her family from her - why did she beg Mario for help?

Why did she let all the members of her family kill themselves to stop something which she can apparently stop causally according to you?

Why would she tell Mario that he will see what she means about how the Cycle of Life changes things if she reset the universe to how it was originally was, and why was the universal layout different from how it was if she reset creation?


Do you see how none of this makes any sense? Do you see how none of this backed by any proof?


You keep saying that all of these logical assumptions are debunked, but you don't prove it.

Just because you say something is a certain thing, and act like that something is a certain thing, doesn't make that something what you are describing it to be.

I went through every part of her AP justification and proved how every part of it was inaccuarte with links and citations and asked for actual proof of her being Low 2-C, because if not, she needs to be downgraded.

So either deliver the evidence I am asking for, or accept the downgrade because your word is not acceptable proof, that's not how debating works.

If you can't deliver that evidence in a timely manner, then just accept the downgrade now and upgrade her when you have the evidence.

Rosalina doesn't earn special favors. She should and will be treated like any other character on this wiki.
 
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