Sailor Moon Tier 1 Upgrade (Reformatted)

[Maitreya12]

“Bad faith arguments” yeah buddy just doesn’t engage in actual counters presented before him ok that’s fine

I’ll just address the new op.

Dimensionality

1. Sailor Mercury in the 1ast arc uses in-world math, to create a super dimensional structure. The attack has been translated as hypersphere, super dimensional space, hyperspatial sphere, etc. Japanese word 'chou' can be used for both super and hyper.

Cool, none of this proves higher dimensional superiority in a qualitative sense. Saying the words “super” or “higher dimensional” structures doesn’t necessarily entail qualitative superiority over the space they reside in, that needs to be demonstrated and proven.

Sailor Mercury uses it to bring the battle to a 4D space to prevent the game center and surrounding area from being damaged in the battle. Queen Beryl also comments, "fight wherever you want" confirming that they are in a new location, and not simply inside a forcefield. Mathematically speaking, a super dimensional anything cannot fit inside 3D space, so there must be at least 4D space on some level within the verse to accommodate. This plus the fact that Sailor Moon needed to calculations in order to do the attack, means the attack is based in mathematical theory and is an actual hypersphere. This would mean that the universe possesses at least 4 dimensions of space, bringing 5D spacetime.

Why “must there be” a 4D space on some level. Nothing in your scans presented says that a 4-D space “must be” generated for a higher dimensional structure. Nothing says the structure itself is a qualitatively superior to outside either, that’s just an assumption you’ve generated.

And especially nothing here cites that a 5-D space-time must be generated for the space. You’re just stacking assumption on top of assumption with no in canon backing to it. Saying “math” doesn’t cut it since you actually need to cite the specific mathematical properties being applied, not just “math” as a concept.

Nothing cited here has demonstrated qualitative superiority in determining a 5-D space.

2. During the second arc, while the using the Silver Crystal, it is directly stated that time exists in layers. Prince Demande says, "A clear beautiful power. A light unhindered by the layers of time. This sentence is not hyperbole or flowerly language. I will explain why:

These “layers of time” don’t need to separate directional coordinates separate from spatial axises, they can all be part of 1 4-D space-time structure. Not added together like addition, that’s not how dimensionality works.

During the second arc, we find out that the Silver Crystal of the past can only work in the past and does not work in the future. After a power up from, Neo Queen Serenity, Sailor Moon's silver crystal sends power to itself from the past. When this is done the first time, Wiseman comments about how the Silver Crystal doesn't lose power despite crossing time and space and being exposed to the power negation of the Black crystal.

During the scene, Sailor Moon is using her crystal in the future, so she is currently sending power to herself from the past. (Again in the same seen we are reminded that the silver crystal of the past can't work in the future)Prince Demand comments on this, and talks about how the Silver Crystal doesn't lose power of brilliance as it travels through the layers of time. He is directly commenting on what happening in literal time. Prince Demande is also a time traveler with extensive knowledge of time and its mechanics as his goal was to change history.

While it is not stated how many layers there are of time, but we can easily just say that the universe has at least two dimensions of time.

“Two dimensions of time” again you don’t add them as part of the space as if they’re all part of the same structure when you haven’t demonstrated the time itself are directional coordinates deviating off of the same structure. None of this is being presented in your scans or evidence.

So, in conclusion, the Sailor Moon universe or multiverse for that matter, should have at least Four dimensions of space and 2 dimensions of Time. This would put the cosmology at least 6D cosmology or Low 1-C but we are not done yet.

Not even close.

Qualitative Superiority

1. The Corridor of Spacetime

The Corridor of spacetime (also called the underworld, rift, spacetime etc.), is a realm that is stated directly to have no concept of Distance or Direction and coordinates are undefined. Sailor Mercury, who can track people across indefinite distances (the space between spacetimes) and can calculate super dimensional spaces, could figure out this space.

All time and space are subsets of this space. The Tau Star System which is an entire infinite universe, exists in a region within the Corridor. Sailor Pluto used the corridor to seal away the accesss to this universe. The Future and Past of the main universe exist as separate locations within the Corridor. People who wander the corridor can end up lost in time.

This realm, is beyond spacetime of the verse, and should qualify above it, bringing the verse to 7D or 1-C (6D spacetime plus 1 level of Qualitive superiority)

Literally what standards of qualitative superiority have been met here. You actually didn’t list or explain anything in regards to the criteria for it, you literally just said “it’s superior” and so it’s a whole ah dimension higher

Actually explain how this meets the standard of qualitative superiority please and thank you.

2. The Galaxy Cauldron

The Galaxy Cauldron is the next layer. This place is the most holiest place in the verse. It is the source of everything and where all possibilities are created. It formed the Silver Crystal and gave it all its particles, which transcends time and space, but can also destroy everything, including the Corridor of Spacetime, via a special paradox.

The Silver Crystal, and beings and powers on par or near to it's power, exist as insignificants within the Galaxy Cauldron, being miniscule (or infinitesimals).

This place should be superior to the Corridor of Spacetime, and should qualify above it, bringing it to 8D, which is still 1-C. (6D spacetime plus 2 levels of qualitative superiority)

Again you’re literally just saying “it should be superior” while not actually demonstrating or explaining how it meets the criteria for qualitative superiority. Even statements such as “transcending time” don’t inherently lead to qualitative superiority, let alone for 8-D levels.

3. The Lambda Power

The Lambda Power is the ultimate force in Sailor Moon. With it, Sailor Moon Purged Chaos, who had fused with the Galaxy Cauldron and undid the destruction caused by Sailor Galaxia, and resurrected all the melted Sailor Crystals. It also has the power to reset the entire verse. Chaos who was fully formed in the Cauldron, is now trivialized into almost nothing via the Lambda Power.

It should be superior to the Galaxy Cauldron, and should qualify above it, bringing it to 9D, which is still 1-C (6D spacetime plus 3 levels of qualitative superiotiy).

“It should be superior” deadass this is all you’re saying

We don’t go by “should” or not we go by qualitative superiority. Actually demonstrate and explain how the criteria for that is being met instead of just saying meaningless words about how it should be superior to something else you arbitrarily decided was higher dimensional than another thing.

It being superior or above something else doesn’t inherently entail qualitative superiority.

Who gets what?

Tier 1-C (9-D): Lambda Sailor Moon, Sailor Chaos, Sailor Cosmos

Tier 1-C (8-D): Chaos

Range 1-C (7-D): Sailor Moon, Death Phantom, Black Lady, Sailor Pluto

NOTE: No derailment like in the last thread.

Still disagree with the thread. Because the evidence is just not there to present the claims being made.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Everything12 Could use further evaluations on if this meets the Tier 1 qualifications.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Cool, none of this proves higher dimensional superiority in a qualitative sense. Saying the words “super” or “higher dimensional” structures doesn’t necessarily entail qualitative superiority over the space they reside in, that needs to be demonstrated and proven.

I have already stated AD nauseum that you DO NOT NEED Qualitative Superiority for dimensionality. I literally posted the tier system:

Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

Move on from this argument.

Why “must there be” a 4D space on some level. Nothing in your scans presented says that a 4-D space “must be” generated for a higher dimensional structure. Nothing says the structure itself is a qualitatively superior to outside either, that’s just an assumption you’ve generated.

And especially nothing here cites that a 5-D space-time must be generated for the space.

Hyperspheres cannot exist in 3D space. They need 4D space, which would give 5D spacetime.

You’re just stacking assumption on top of assumption with no in canon backing to it. Saying “math” doesn’t cut it since you actually need to cite the specific mathematical properties being applied, not just “math” as a concept.

Not this stupid argument again. It's a basic concept of math.

These “layers of time” don’t need to separate directional coordinates separate from spatial axises, they can all be part of 1 4-D space-time structure. Not added together like addition, that’s not how dimensionality works.

4D spacetime is 3 dimensions of space + 1 dimension of time. If the time dimension has layers, it cannot be singular. Also, considering attacks can travel backwards in time, there are more than one direction of time in Sailor Moon.

Literally what standards of qualitative superiority have been met here. You actually didn’t list or explain anything in regards to the criteria for it, you literally just said “it’s superior” and so it’s a whole ah dimension higher

Actually explain how this meets the standard of qualitative superiority please and thank you.

Actually address the arguments. The Corridor embeds entire spacetimes. Time and Space are subsets of the Corridor. Higher Dimensional structures embed lower dimensional structures.

Again you’re literally just saying “it should be superior” while not actually demonstrating or explaining how it meets the criteria for qualitative superiority. Even statements such as “transcending time” don’t inherently lead to qualitative superiority, let alone for 8-D levels.

Again. You are not even addressing my arguments. 4D to 7D powers and beings exist as infinitesimals inside the Cauldron. Viewing characters or worlds or power as completely ineffectual and trivial is accepted form of Qualitative Superiority.

It should be superior” deadass this is all you’re saying

We don’t go by “should” or not we go by qualitative superiority. Actually demonstrate and explain how the criteria for that is being met instead of just saying meaningless words about how it should be superior to something else you arbitrarily decided was higher dimensional than another thing.

It being superior or above something else doesn’t inherently entail qualitative superiority.

Again. You are not addressing my arguments. Chaos was completely formed inside the Cauldron where other beings existed as infinitesimals. The Lambda power reduced him to an infinitesimal and can reset the entire verse, including the Galaxy Cauldron.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

PS: for those, I added another piece of evidence in the Layers of Time section.

 

[Maitreya12]

I have already stated AD nauseum that you DO NOT NEED Qualitative Superiority for dimensionality. I literally posted the tier system:

Yes you do. On god’s green earth the literally section you quoted directly stated you needed to prove higher level infinity from the other aka qualitative superiority since that is being uncountable infinitely higher than another.

And when I pointed this out and asked you to prove this, you just ignored the argument

Move on from this argument.

Actually address the argument.

Hyperspheres cannot exist in 3D space. They need 4D space, which would give 5D spacetime.



Not this stupid argument again. It's a basic concept of math.

..no. Euclidean space and R^n levels of higher dimensional superiority isn’t “basis math.” Idk what high school algebra classes are teaching that, but regardless you still need to prove they’re referring to a Euclidean space of (n+1) dimensions in sailor moon.

None of your scans say this. You’re just assuming things.

4D spacetime is 3 dimensions of space + 1 dimension of time. If the time dimension has layers, it cannot be singular. Also, considering attacks can travel backwards in time, there are more than one direction of time in Sailor Moon.

Layers of what. You’re not proving that this means real coordinate spaces. You’re just assuming once again. Time, 4-D already includes the past. It includes the entire past, present, and future. So I don’t know how an attack traveling backwards in times proves in any way another coordinate line separate from the already 4-D time.

Actually address the arguments. The Corridor embeds entire spacetimes. Time and Space are subsets of the Corridor. Higher Dimensional structures embed lower dimensional structures.

This doesn’t inherently prove qualitative superiority on a 7-D scale though. That the issue, the argument you’re making doesn’t qualify for the claim you made. Prove they’re lower dimensional structures in a higher level of infinite sense, again you’re just assuming.

And what do you mean “Sub sets” your own scan says you can find any point in space with the space-time key in the space. So space remains throughout.

Again. You are not even addressing my arguments. 4D to 7D powers and beings exist as infinitesimals inside the Cauldron. Viewing characters or worlds or power as completely ineffectual and trivial is accepted form of Qualitative Superiority.

Wait can we get the raws for that then? Because two scans saying “small” and “infinitesimally small” are two very separate things. Cause one can imply qualitative superiority while the other does not. Something can be “small” in comparison to another structure without qualifying for higher dimensional superiority.

Even then it still might not be enough since the standard is to be “uncountable infinite greater” to qualify for qualitative superiority, not just infinitely greater.

Again. You are not addressing my arguments. Chaos was completely formed inside the Cauldron where other beings existed as infinitesimals. The Lambda power reduced him to an infinitesimal and can reset the entire verse, including the Galaxy Cauldron.

What do you mean “reduced him to an infinitesimal” where in your scan says this? It just says it’s the ultimate power able to turn everything into a static universe, nowhere in your scan nor your explanation did you demonstrate an uncountably infinite difference between the Lambda power and the galaxy cauldron.

Even the lambda power being infinitely stronger than the galaxy cauldron wouldn’t prove higher dimensional superiority, it needs to be “uncountably infinitely greater” to qualify. So where in your scans did you prove this higher level of infinity difference.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah going off of these scans I don't see tier 1 at all, concept of direction and layers of time don't tell me anything about tier 1 in of itself unless it's elaborated on.

 

[Da3ggman]

The last one was closed prematurely, before any further discussion could done.

No further discussion was needed; literally every single person who participated in the thread rejected it. Cope.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Nothing about this indicates qualitative superiority, which you need in order to gain tier 1.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I've dropped the arguments for layers of time, and the qualitive superiority for the Galaxy cauldron and the Lambda force after discussion with others.

All that remains is the 4D space and the corridor of spacetime which is pretty straight forward according to our current standards.

Yeah going off of these scans I don't see tier 1 at all, concept of direction and layers of time don't tell me anything about tier 1 in of itself unless it's elaborated on.

By it self, no, but in conjunction with the 4D space which exists by necessity, would put it at that level.

 

[Akagami_Shanks1]

What is the outcome of this discussion I am curious. I want to state that agree with Lamuna

 

[Larssx]

Neutral for now.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Bump.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Nothing about this indicates qualitative superiority, which you need in order to gain tier 1.

I am in the same opinion as Milly, therefore disagree.

Also how many cosmology upgrades thread did you do as far?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I am in the same opinion as Milly, therefore disagree.

Also how many cosmology upgrades thread did you do as far?

4D dimensional space plus time fits the wikis requirement of R^5 for Low 1-C.

and this is the same one.

 

[Ivarage_Ts]

i agree with lamuna

 

[ImmortalDread]

4D dimensional space plus time fits the wikis requirement of R^5 for Low 1-C.

and this is the same one.

with which evidence? Because all I see or what is presented is some sphere.?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

with which evidence? Because all I see or what is presented is some sphere.?

Hyperspheres can only exist within 4 dimensional space.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Incorrect. Hyperspheres can exist in any number of dimensions greater than or equal to 2, not just in 4-dimensional space.

A hypersphere is the set of points in a space that are equidistant from a center point. In two-dimensional space, a hypersphere is a circle; in three-dimensional space, it is a sphere; and in n-dimensional space, it is an n-sphere or hypersphere.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Incorrect. Hyperspheres can exist in any number of dimensions greater than or equal to 2, not just in 4-dimensional space.

A hypersphere is the set of points in a space that are equidistant from a center point. In two-dimensional space, a hypersphere is a circle; in three-dimensional space, it is a sphere; and in n-dimensional space, it is an n-sphere or hypersphere.

Technically True. But people don’t generally call spheres and circles hyperspheres and always mean 4D+ structures when they do.

But if you want to be pendantic, it is called super dimensional sphere or (hyper dimensional depending on the translation) , both refers to space of more than three dimensional.

Definition of HYPERDIMENSIONAL

of or relating to space of more than three dimensions… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

And to just note the japanese directly says:
Hyper Dimension Space Emerge




超次元空間現出

超次元空間現出 - Jisho.org

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Bump.

 

[Matrixxxx]

Bump.

i agree with lumina

 

[RaveeCPN]

5D seems fine for me- At least I'm in favor of it getting a "possibly" rating.

But I'm not sure about 6D

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah I'm not seeing anything jumping out that yells Tier 1. I disagree

 

[Akagami_Shanks1]

why

 

[Lonkitt]

Maitreya and Milly essentially vocalized why

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Maitreya and Milly essentially vocalized why

I removed most of sections, I have. Youd have to be specific in which argument they presented that you agree with because some of the things they disagree are no longer being argued.

 

[Lonkitt]

And what would those aspects be?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

And what would those aspects be?

The cauldron, and lambda power, as well as layers of time.

Which are different from the plain as day argument of there being a 5D space by necessity within the universe and the corridor of spacetime encompassing that space.

 

[Maitreya12]

Ok, this is like the third time the OP has been revised, going from initially 9-D arguments, down to 8-D and finally now the argument seems to be 5 to 6-D.

I’ll just say this because it’s the foundation for the OP’s arguments as the argument has been had to ad nausea at this point:

Saying the term “super-dimensional” doesn’t inherently imply qualitative superiority or a qualitatively superior structure has been made on the wiki. It actually needs to be demonstrated as such that they are referring to a higher dimension in an R^n sense, it cannot be assumed as such. There is also no evidence of this “super-dimensional structure” is in a “4-D space.” It could’ve just been made in a 3-D one, again no evidence has been presented the “space” itself was 4-D and the super dimensional structure that was made was 5-D. And nor does the term “layers of time” qualify either without further clarification on its higher level of infinity stature.

Again it needs to be proven for qualitative superiority on the space. It’s not simply assumed based on the term “super-dimensional” the same way the term “transcending” doesn’t necessarily entail qualitative superiority either.

I think someone else said it best, Sailor Moon has the potential to reach low 1-C, but not with these arguments.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Saying the term “super-dimensional” doesn’t inherently imply qualitative superiority or a qualitatively superior structure has been made on the wiki. It actually needs to be demonstrated as such that they are referring to a higher dimension in an R^n sense, it cannot be assumed as such. There is also no evidence of this “super-dimensional structure” is in a “4-D space.” It could’ve just been made in a 3-D one, again no evidence has been presented the “space” itself was 4-D and the super dimensional structure that was made was 5-D. And nor does the term “layers of time” qualify either without further clarification on its higher level of infinity stature.

Sorry but this argument doesn’t make sense. By very definition a hyper dimensional space has to be R^4 (R^5 with time) and cannot exist in a 3D space.

Unless you are arguing that when the author said hyper dimensional space, they are using a definition that goes against the real world definition, and there is no evidence to make that assumption.

 

[Maitreya12]

Sorry but this argument doesn’t make sense. By very definition a hyper dimensional space has to be R^4 (R^5 with time) and cannot exist in a 3D space.

Unless you are arguing that when the author said hyper dimensional space, they are using a definition that goes against the real world definition, and there is no evidence to make that assumption.

Again the fundamental issue here with your argument is that you’re assuming “super dimensional” to mean that in an R^n sense when it doesn’t necessarily have to be the case nor is it inherently treated the case here on the wiki. Terms such as “higher dimensions” and things of that nature aren’t inherently treated as being to mean R^n coordinates, and is said so on the page.

Also as Dread pointed out, they can exists in any number of spaces greater than or equal to 2.

Incorrect. Hyperspheres can exist in any number of dimensions greater than or equal to 2, not just in 4-dimensional space.

A hypersphere is the set of points in a space that are equidistant from a center point. In two-dimensional space, a hypersphere is a circle; in three-dimensional space, it is a sphere; and in n-dimensional space, it is an n-sphere or hypersphere.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also as Dread pointed out, they can exists in any number of spaces greater than or equal to 2.

i addressed this argument.

Again the fundamental issue here with your argument is that you’re assuming “super dimensional” to mean that in an R^n sense when it doesn’t necessarily have to be the case nor is it inherently treated the case here on the wiki. Terms such as “higher dimensions” and things of that nature aren’t inherently treated as being to mean R^n coordinates, and is said so on the page.

except in this context, Sailor Mercury uses in-world mathematic calculations in order to do the ability, so it is grounded in mathematics.

 

[AKUTO123]

Agree with 5D

 

[ImmortalDread]

i addressed this argument

You really did not successfully even counter it.

 

[Planck69]

Reading through this, I'm in agreement with Lonkitt, Milly and glass. This doesn't seem sufficient for Tier 1. Disagree.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You really did not successfully even counter it.

I actually did. If you would address the argument and say what was wrong with it, that would nice.

After all, i provided japanese translation as well as a definition that debunked your argument.

 

[Lonkitt]

How did you debunk it though? It still hasn't really given us a clear idea that Tier 1 is acceptable. Be specific

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

How did you debunk it though? It still hasn't really given us a clear idea that Tier 1 is acceptable. Be specific

They claimed that hyperspheres can be 2D or 3D.

I provided a direct japanese translation that called it a Hyperdimensional space. Then I provided a definition of hyperdimensional that specifically states that it refers to space that is more than 3 dimensions.

They would need to debunk the Japanese translation and the real world definition.

 

[Lonkitt]

Again, hyperdimensional does not mean the space is on a level reaching Tier 1