Saver's Weakness Revision

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I have been doing more research into The Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig, it turns out its weakness is not due to the nature of divinity. To quote the Lancer Matrix, which is where knowledge of the weakness comes from,

"Divinity This is a measure of one's Divine Spirit aptitude. At high levels, this ability allows one to break through and defend against otherwise invincible skills, such as Sri Maha Bodhiya." - Lancer Matrix

As you can see, the weakness is not due to the nature of Saver's defensive skill, it is due to the nature of divinity within the Nasuverse. So his weakness is not applicable within a nuetral verse. Thus,

"Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig and Transmigration into One weakens should the target be more than human (i.e. of divine blood)." should be changed to "Transmigration into One weakens should the target be more than human (i.e. of divine blood)."

 

[Promestein]

We equalize these things for the sake of fairness.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

We equalize these things for the sake of fairness.

yeah, Saver doesn't actually (surprisingly) have divinity tho. The weakness should still be revised tho, right? Its like having spiritual pressure as a weakness for bleach characters

 

[Asdafaz]

It's not that surprsing, considering the Buddha is not considered a god

 

[Promestein]

Saver doesn't have the Divinity skill because he's a Divine Spirit and his divinity can't be quantified on that scale.

I disagree with removing it. These things are equalized.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't see this as something to be equalised.

It is Nasuverse's Divinity, Divinity as a skill, that is what is letting Gil, Ram, Cu, etc break through these "otherwise unbreakable defenses".

If someone from another verse was extremely lucky, we wouldn't use verse equalisation to give them Fate/Causality hax like Servants do from their high luck stats. So if someone else from another verse was a demi-god/god/angel/etc, why would we give them the ability to break through special defenses because Nasuverse's divinity gives its own characters that ability.

So I agree with this.

 

[Schnee_One]

We equalize these things for the sake of fairness.

No. We Don't.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1056191?useskin=oasis

Agreed with this.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

...

Wasn't it later agreed that things that are actually required to fight the person are equalised (being able to attack Stands, being able to see Soul Reapers, having equivalent Mystery to servants)

But there is a difference between "getting the ability actually required to fight the person" and "getting an extra ability added because that's how it works in the opponent's verse"

I agree with the former. I disagree with the latter.

 

[Schnee_One]

It was never agreed on the mystery part, we agreed that it's better if the OP instead opted for the two characters being able to do so normally, so no, we never agreed to equalize it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Saver doesn't have the Divinity skill because he's a Divine Spirit and his divinity can't be quantified on that scale.
I disagree with removing it. These things are equalized.

so this begs the question then. If the bypassing of defensive hax comes from the skill divinity and not divinity itself, then I don't see how another character happening to be divine would fall under equalisation. If bypassing defensive hax comes from the divinity itself and not the skill, then we must revise Saver's page and add divinity (and the bypassing of defensive hax that comes with it) as an ability. So either way this page must be revised.

However as Gargoyle and Monarch pointed out, this nature of divinity within the Nasuverse does not fall under verse equalisation. No more then being "normal" suddenly gives you immunity to spiritual manipulation just because you are in a fight with a pokemon

 

[Reppuzan]

@Monarch

Skills are just representative of powers that they have.

Gilgamesh has Divinity from being born from a god. Same goes for Heracles, Cu Chulainn, and Karna.

It really doesn't matter if it's designated as a skill or not, since it's just a measurement of how much divine blood you have. No more, no less. I disagree with removing this.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Reppuzan So you are essentially giving characters the ability to bypass defensive hax, which they did not have before.

Following this, energy detection should not work on divine beings when fighting characters in Dragon Ball because God Ki grants you that power. Do you agree to this?

Does the rule that characters being united with their alternate selves erases existence suddenly take effect when against JJBA characters, putting other characters who interact with their alternate selves at a massive disadvantage?

Do characters with Super Luck suddenly gain causality manipulation resistence when fighting characters from the Nasuverse?

There is a difference between something like equalising stand properties, and granting characters the ability to interact and see stands, and giving characters the ability to interact with other intagible objects other than stands simply because they are in a fight with a JJBA character. Giving divine beings the ability to bypass defensive hax while fighting Nasuverse characters is like the latter.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Rep Divinity being a skill or Divinity being a measure of Divine Blood is irrelevant, because as you said, it is "representative of powers that they have"

The point is that Nasuverse's Divinity lets people break through defenses. That is not a trait that all divine beings from other franchises share, and I disagree with equalizing it so they do have it when fighting Nasuverse characters.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Rep Divinity being a skill or Divinity being a measure of Divine Blood is irrelevant, because as you said, "powers that they have"
The point is that Nasuverse's Divinity lets people break through defenses. That is not a trait that all divine beings from other franchises share, and I disagree with equalizing it so they do have it when fighting Nasuverse characters.

yeah. If we apply that divine beings suddenly gain the ability to bypass defensive hax then I guess we would have to say that any character fighting Nasuverse characters with Super Luck/Enhanced Luck suddenly gains resistence to causality manipulation

 

[Reppuzan]

I don't see why something like this wouldn't be equalized.

There's literally no difference between having Divinity as a skill and not being a Servant, since the origin in the same: both stem from having a divine parent.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It wouldn't be equalised because not every divine being from fiction can break through defensive abilities simply by being divine.

Only Nasuverse divine beings have that little advantage.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Monarch

Says who?

Like I said before, the Divinity skill is just a measure of how much divine blood one has. Anything else is auxiliary.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Ok, so then the bit about "breaking through defenses" is the auxillary part, and should not be equalised so that any divine being from fiction can break through a Nasu character's defensive hax. That's what Iapitus is saying in the OP about removing Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig's weakness to divine beings, because its not a weakness to divinity in general, its a weakness to a particular aspect of Nasuverse's divine beings.

I'm not saying "the Nasuverse skill Divinity should not be equalised to Odi being a god".

 

[Reppuzan]

@Monarch

If Divinity is a weakness of those skills then I still don't see why we can't equalize it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Is it weakness of the ability though?

Or is it the result of Nasuverse's Divinity being able to break through defensive abilities?

If its the former, ok, leave the weakness in. If its the latter, the weakness should be removed because its not a weakness to godhood and divinity in general, it's because Nasuverse's Divinity has that auxilary effect.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Its not a weakness of the ability any more then any defensive hax's weakness is the ability to bypass defensive hax. At this point we might aswell go down the Servant list and add divinity as a weakness for every single one with defensive hax, then go down the line of all the Logia users and Devil Fruit users with altered body properties and list Haki (or will power manipulation, take your pick) as a weakness for every single one, then Go down the line for Abnormals and Minus from Medaka Box and list Styles (language manipulation applied to warp reality) as a weakness for every single one with defensive hax, etc. Do you see what I mean?

 

[KamiYasha]

Finally i'm here, what is this all about?

 

[Reppuzan]

Whether or not Saver's Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig's weakness to Divinity should be equalized or not. Since in the Nasuverse, Divine Servants have purge defense values.

I don't agree with it since Divinity is nothing more than a measure of how much divine blood you have.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Except that Alexander has Divinity, based of the claim that he was Zeus' son, so I disagree with seeing Divinity like that.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Regis

Servants are the crystallizations of the heroes' legends. So that's not entirely absurd. If there are legends of him being the son of Zeus, then he's probably going end up with some level of Divinity.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Whether or not Saver's Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig's weakness to Divinity should be equalized or not. Since in the Nasuverse, Divine Servants have purge defense values.
I don't agree with it since Divinity is nothing more than a measure of how much divine blood you have.

actually the author said that Saver (and other Bodhissatva like Kiara) are Gods in his decription of All The World's Desires. Yet neither he, nor Kiara, have the divinity skill, care to explain that?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Finally i'm here, what is this all about?

whether or not Divinity should be listed under an inherent weakness to Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig. The Issue is that if we do that then we should also add divinity as an inherent weakness to all other servants with defensive hax aswell, since the weakness only comes from the in universe rule that those with the divinity skill can bypass defensive hax with a B rank or higher.

In essense the weakness is not divinity, its the hax ignoring that comes with Nasuverse divinity

 

[Reppuzan]

@Iapitus

They don't have the Divinity skill the same reason Quetzalcoatl doesn't have it.

They're full blown gods.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Iapitus
They don't have the Divinity skill the same reason Quetzalcoatl doesn't have it.

They're full blown gods.

In that case the power comes from the skill not being divine. Therefore why would it be equalised? So do only part Gods get the durability bypass and not full blown Gods? How does that make sense and apply in equalisation?

Beerus can't get the hax bypass because he is a full blown God, but Percy Jackson gets the hax bypass because he is only half God?

Would we equalise that Language Manipulation can reach into higher dimensions and bypass defensive hax when people are fighting Medaka Box characters?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Iapitus

Of course they're divine, they're gods.

You really don't read Servant profiles, do you?

The vast majority of the goddess Servants have the skill "Goddess' Divine Core", a composite skill which (surprise surprise) includes Divinity.

Saver doesn't have it because of the fact that true Divine Spirits are unsummonable under normal circumstances and Buddha is a human who ascended to divinity after death.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Iapetus, all the gods have Divinity. They're gods.

Thought I don't know why this is being debated. What should be being debated is whether or not Divinity breaking through Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig is due to:

A) EotSF doesn't work agaisnt Divine beings, in which case we should leave the weakness on the profile

Or

B) Divinity can break through defensive abilities, in which case we should remove the weakness and not equalise Divinity's purge defense valye to other franchises.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Monarch Laciel

My point was it seems that not all divine beings have access to the divinity skill (or other skills of that nature), such as Kiara or Saver.

Also that in universe rules shouldn't be listed as weaknesses on pages

 

[Reppuzan]

@Iapitus

Kiara has the Earth Mother Goddess' authority as a composite Divinity.

Saver isn't summoned as a Divine Spirit as he was simply a mortal in life.

Your examples are ridiculously flawed.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

As Rep said, they don't have the Divinity Skill because their Divinity is off the charts. Their Divinity can't be ranked or classified, so it isn't a Skill. That doesn't mean they don't have it.

Just because they don't have the Skill doesn't mean they don't have the skill.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Iapitus
Of course they're divine, they're gods.

You really don't read Servant profiles, do you?

The vast majority of the goddess Servants have the skill "Goddess' Divine Core", a composite skill which (surprise surprise) includes Divinity.

Saver doesn't have it because of the fact that true Divine Spirits are unsummonable under normal circumstances and Buddha is a human who ascended to divinity after death.

Yes, but that's not my point. The point was that not all divine beings have access to the hax bypasing properties

Enough to know that Kiara doesn't have the skill despite being a Goddess.

And why would that change him and Kiara not having the divinity power?

Don't be dodging points like that. Should In universe rules be listed under the weaknesses of characters? And are in universe property based powers gained during equalisation? Do Language Manipulators gain the ability to reach into higher dimensions and bypass defensive hax when fighting Medaka Box characters? Do all (non god) dragon ball characters have the "weakness" of not being able to sense divine beings, or do the characters they are fighting lose the ability to sense divine beings when fighting dragon ball characters?

 

[RegisNex1232]

Here's the relevant Japanese text and translations about this topic:

ÒÇÉþÑ׵ǺÒÇæ þÑ×Ú£èÚü®µÇºÒéƵîüÒüñÒüïÒü®ÒüåÒüïÒÇé Ú½ÿÒüäÒü╗Òü®ÒéêÒéèþë®Þ│¬þÜäÒü¬þÑ×Ú£èÒü¿Òü«µÀÀÞíÇÒü¿ÒüòÒéîÒéïÒÇé þ▓øµ©àÚÿ▓Õ¥íÒü¿Õæ╝Òü░ÒéîÒéïþë╣µ«èÒü¬Úÿ▓Õ¥íÕÇñÒéÆ Òâ®Òâ│Òé»ÕêåÒüáÒüæÕë赩øÒüÖÒéïÕè╣µ×£ÒééÒüéÒéïÒÇé ÞÅ®µÅɵ¿╣Òü«µéƒÒéèÒÇüõ┐íõ╗░Òü«ÕèáÞ¡ÀÒÇüÒü¿ÒüäÒüúÒüƒÒé╣Òé¡Òâ½ÒéƵëôÒüíþá┤ÒéïÒÇé

Basically talking about how the more ranks you have in Divinity, the more you reduce the effectiveness of other people's "purge resistance", breaking through skills like enlightenment or divine protection of faith. http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/373-Create-a-Servant/page144?p=966043#post966043

- It's talking about "Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig" as one of the skills that Divinity breaks through, alongside "Divine Protection of Faith". Basically just expanding the pool of stuff Demigods can **** up to include Buddhas instead of just Christians. http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/373-Create-a-Servant/page145?p=966088#post966088

- Mmm, well, it negates the special type of defence in proportion to the rank of Divinity. So I think it would be like Buddha has 150% damage resistance, and B rank Divinity gives like 100% piercing. Cu now can Gae Bolg Buddha to death even though Ryougi couldn't.

þÑ×Ú£èÚü®µÇºÒéƵîüÒüñÒüïÒü®ÒüåÒüïÒÇé Ú½ÿÒüäÒü╗Òü®ÒéêÒéèþë®Þ│¬þÜäÒü¬þÑ×Ú£èÒü¿Òü«µÀÀÞíÇÒü¿ÒüòÒéîÒéïÒÇé þ▓øµ©àÚÿ▓Õ¥íÒü¿Õæ╝Òü░ÒéîÒéïþë╣µ«èÒü¬Úÿ▓Õ¥íÕÇñÒéÆÒâ®Òâ│Òé»ÕêåÒüáÒüæÕë赩øÒüÖÒéïÕè╣µ×£ÒééÒüéÒéïÒÇé ÞÅ®Õáñµ¿╣Òü«µéƒÒéèÒÇüõ┐íõ╗░Òü«ÕèáÞ¡ÀÒÇüÒü¿ÒüäÒüúÒüƒÒé╣Òé¡Òâ½ÒéƵëôÒüíþá┤ÒéïÒÇé

It doesn't say Divinity kills Buddha, but it "pierces revelations acquired under a fig tree". It's pretty much saying Buddha. http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/8-Badass-Versus-Thread/page1701?p=1007254#post1007254

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

As Rep said, they don't have the Divinity Skill because their Divinity is off the charts. Their Divinity can't be ranked or classified, so it isn't a Skill. That doesn't mean they don't have it.
Just because they don't have the Skill doesn't mean they don't have the skill.

in that case, shouldn't the true form Saver have divinity listed on his page just not as a skill but as a seperate ability?

 

[Reppuzan]

After seeing Regis' scans, I suppose I can agree with this more or less.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

great, who else do we need to convince before it can be changed?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

bump