- 26,457
- 30,819
Sequel to this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-1...universe-destruction-feat-would-be-2a.192196/
This thread is mainly to focus on characters who wouldn't be scaling to Low 1-C, or at least, have their justifications altered. If a character isn't mentioned here, then that means their scaling is fine, but all the ones listed are mainly the ones placed under scrutiny. If anyone can find better justifications for these characters, any of it welcomed for here.
Cyborg Supes
Not really downgrades, moreso adjusting their ratings?
Wonder Woman: Diana should be given a Varies tier, with her own power being magical, means it relies on belief and it fluctuates depends on how strong said belief is. Respective scans are The Power of Shazam! #30, Wonder Woman (2024) #9, Tales from the Dark Multiverse: Wonder Woman: War of the Gods and Justice League Dark #1. Particular example is in Wonder Woman #612, where it's stated where the other Gods draw their power from other aspects that people believe in, Diana draws her power from the people's belief in hope.
Captain Marvel/Black Adam: Pretty much the same deal as above. In the case of Shazam, Shazam has instances in which he doesn't draw his full power in order to hold back. Scans are respectively The Power of Shazam! #2, Shazam: A New Beginning #2 and 3.
Supergirl/Powergirl: Both should be given the same Varies mechanism as Superman does, as nothing would suggest the way their physiology operates would differ from their cousin. This applies for their Rebirth counterpart as well. Varies, up to Low 1-C
Zod: Same as above. Varies, up to Low 1-C
Red Tornado: Idk where Low 5-B comes from honestly, his justification is straight up Low 1-C.
Cyborg Superman: As accepted here, Mongul scaling is moreorless out the window. The scan showing him "tanking" attacks from Kyle and John is false because while yes, he doesn't die from there, the bottom panel visibly shows him to be damaged from their attacks. Better back up feats I do have are in Return of Doomsday, where Cyborg Superman holds his own against Post-Gog War Doomsday, and in Superman: Up in the Sky #6, where he is able to break through Booster Gold's shielding.
Guardians of the Universe: Should be straight up Low 1-C. Like the Green Lanterns, there's nothing within text that suggests their power would just jump tiers whenever they team up together. As for supporting evidence, in Green Lantern Corps #58, Ganthet himself has stopped a fight between a serious Kyle and John, and in Green Lantern 80-Page Giant #3, the Guardians themselves are presented as a threat to Darkseid. While yes, Darkseid is younger here, there's not much to presume he'd be so infinitesimally weaker than his older self.
Kyle Rayner: Rookie Kyle's Low 2-C should be upgraded to Low 1-C for the following feats.
Downgrades
Guardians of the Universe: Should be straight up Low 1-C. Like the Green Lanterns, there's nothing within text that suggests their power would just jump tiers whenever they team up together. As for supporting evidence, in Green Lantern Corps #58, Ganthet himself has stopped a fight between a serious Kyle and John, and in Green Lantern 80-Page Giant #3, the Guardians themselves are presented as a threat to Darkseid. While yes, Darkseid is younger here, there's not much to presume he'd be so infinitesimally weaker than his older self.
Kyle Rayner: Rookie Kyle's Low 2-C should be upgraded to Low 1-C for the following feats.
Downgrades
Etrigan: First, WW and Supes have varying stats makes it a bit dubious if the version Etrigan were up against were them going all out. Second, the version of Wonder Woman he scales above is was her during her pre-clayface absorption era. Lastly, in Blood of the Demon #5, Etrigan admits he doesn't stand a chance against either of them in a fight. At the very least, Etrigan would simply upscale from pre-clayface Diana. Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C.
Big Barda: The scan in which she fights Wonder Woman happens in 1996, her pre-clayface self. Given as we'll talk later about Lobo getting hammered, scaling to him isn't too solid either. As such, she should simply be placed at Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C.
Martian Manhunter: In his first scan, he primarily takes Wonder Woman by surprise, and given how they're all specifically trying to restrain him, it's pretty doubtful all of them would be trying to use their full strength against MMH. Furthermore, this is also a pre-clayface Diana he's facing. Him scaling to Black Adam is ok at a glance, but Black Adam being already weakened here + MMH not doing much substantial damage and losing shortly after does make the scaling overall iffier for him. As for Kyle, given as stated with the others, Kyle as a character doesn't operate at his peak on most circumstances, it also makes the scaling here iffier as well. Given he does seem to come off mostly fine from an angry Barda, I think scaling him to her is ok-ish for the most part. Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C
Despero: Scaling primarily comes from Martian Manhunter so he goes down as well. Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
Plastic Man: Same deal with Despero. Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C
Lobo: Him scaling to Despero means his scaling goes down as well. Furthermore, he mostly hinges on scaling to characters like Supes and Shazam who primarily hold back, especially with Shazam where in their fight in L.E.G.I.O.N. '91 #31, the latter admits to trying to pull his own punches the entire fight. And outside of catching him off guard, Lobo doesn't do all that much damage in their fight. Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C.
Donna Troy: Very self explanatory. Pretty much no justification is given for her being comparable of Wonder Woman or whatnot. Unless some other scaling outlet is given, she should simply scale to her 5-B feat.
Starfire: Her defeating Donna Troy should warrant her a 5-B. Regarding Envy, it's a bit hard to argue that Envy was truly using Wonder Woman's full power to its highest extent when Envy was shown struggling with utilizing Barry's power effectively. And while yeah, a Barry at the height of his powers is definitely higher than Diana. Starfire also struggling with someone like Donna also makes her scaling to Diana questionable. As for Deliverance, there's not much to place him at Low 1-C, but at the very least, he should be scaling to other New God's and their Low 2-C feat. 5-B, possibly Low 2-C at her peak
Blackfire: Post-Crisis Hawks don't have a profile rn nor do they have much related to Tier 1. Regarding Jade, Lanterns vary via concentration, Jade is distracted by smth and probably isn't expecting Blackfire to start attacking the construct while having what seems like a peaceful convo with Starfire. Finally for Starro, given he varies a lot depending on the Starro's age and host, and with just the scan given, there's not a whole lot to go off of. She should simply scale to her sister. 5-B, possibly Low 2-C at her peak.
Pages for deletion:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ursa_(Post-Crisis)
Pretty self explanatory, really barebones profile, and she's generally not are really relevant for scaling.
This thread is mainly to focus on characters who wouldn't be scaling to Low 1-C, or at least, have their justifications altered. If a character isn't mentioned here, then that means their scaling is fine, but all the ones listed are mainly the ones placed under scrutiny. If anyone can find better justifications for these characters, any of it welcomed for here.
Cyborg Supes
Not really downgrades, moreso adjusting their ratings?
Wonder Woman: Diana should be given a Varies tier, with her own power being magical, means it relies on belief and it fluctuates depends on how strong said belief is. Respective scans are The Power of Shazam! #30, Wonder Woman (2024) #9, Tales from the Dark Multiverse: Wonder Woman: War of the Gods and Justice League Dark #1. Particular example is in Wonder Woman #612, where it's stated where the other Gods draw their power from other aspects that people believe in, Diana draws her power from the people's belief in hope.
Captain Marvel/Black Adam: Pretty much the same deal as above. In the case of Shazam, Shazam has instances in which he doesn't draw his full power in order to hold back. Scans are respectively The Power of Shazam! #2, Shazam: A New Beginning #2 and 3.
Supergirl/Powergirl: Both should be given the same Varies mechanism as Superman does, as nothing would suggest the way their physiology operates would differ from their cousin. This applies for their Rebirth counterpart as well. Varies, up to Low 1-C
Zod: Same as above. Varies, up to Low 1-C
Red Tornado: Idk where Low 5-B comes from honestly, his justification is straight up Low 1-C.
Cyborg Superman: As accepted here, Mongul scaling is moreorless out the window. The scan showing him "tanking" attacks from Kyle and John is false because while yes, he doesn't die from there, the bottom panel visibly shows him to be damaged from their attacks. Better back up feats I do have are in Return of Doomsday, where Cyborg Superman holds his own against Post-Gog War Doomsday, and in Superman: Up in the Sky #6, where he is able to break through Booster Gold's shielding.
Guardians of the Universe: Should be straight up Low 1-C. Like the Green Lanterns, there's nothing within text that suggests their power would just jump tiers whenever they team up together. As for supporting evidence, in Green Lantern Corps #58, Ganthet himself has stopped a fight between a serious Kyle and John, and in Green Lantern 80-Page Giant #3, the Guardians themselves are presented as a threat to Darkseid. While yes, Darkseid is younger here, there's not much to presume he'd be so infinitesimally weaker than his older self.
Kyle Rayner: Rookie Kyle's Low 2-C should be upgraded to Low 1-C for the following feats.
- The Massacre scaling on his post Circle of Fire key happens several months prior to Circle of Fire. I think this was a mistake on our part back then.
- In Green Lantern Annual 7, Kyle holds himself against Kilowog trying to kill him and admits he would need everything in order to defeat him, despite being already fatigued in this battle.
- In JLA #7, Kyle is deemed the most effective against the angels out of a team including pre-clayface Diana, MMH and Aquaman.
- In Hardcore Station #6, Kyle is able to restrain Synnar with his constructs, with Synnar himself being able to harm the likes of Orion. Synnar only breaks out because of his ability to manipulate energy.
- In Green Lantern 80 Page Giant #3, Kyle is in better condition than Orion is after being hit by one of Kalibak's weapons.
- Miscellaneous but in Green Lantern (1990) #61, Kyle is stated to be progressing in power very quickly than Darkseid had anticipated.
Downgrades
Guardians of the Universe: Should be straight up Low 1-C. Like the Green Lanterns, there's nothing within text that suggests their power would just jump tiers whenever they team up together. As for supporting evidence, in Green Lantern Corps #58, Ganthet himself has stopped a fight between a serious Kyle and John, and in Green Lantern 80-Page Giant #3, the Guardians themselves are presented as a threat to Darkseid. While yes, Darkseid is younger here, there's not much to presume he'd be so infinitesimally weaker than his older self.
Kyle Rayner: Rookie Kyle's Low 2-C should be upgraded to Low 1-C for the following feats.
- The Massacre scaling on his post Circle of Fire key happens several months prior to Circle of Fire. I think this was a mistake on our part back then.
- In Green Lantern Annual 7, Kyle holds himself against Kilowog trying to kill him and admits he would need everything in order to defeat him, despite being already fatigued in this battle.
- In JLA #7, Kyle is deemed the most effective against the angels out of a team including pre-clayface Diana, MMH and Aquaman.
- In Hardcore Station #6, Kyle is able to restrain Synnar with his constructs, with Synnar himself being able to harm the likes of Orion. Synnar only breaks out because of his ability to manipulate energy.
- In Green Lantern 80 Page Giant #3, Kyle is in better condition than Orion is after being hit by one of Kalibak's weapons.
Downgrades
Etrigan: First, WW and Supes have varying stats makes it a bit dubious if the version Etrigan were up against were them going all out. Second, the version of Wonder Woman he scales above is was her during her pre-clayface absorption era. Lastly, in Blood of the Demon #5, Etrigan admits he doesn't stand a chance against either of them in a fight. At the very least, Etrigan would simply upscale from pre-clayface Diana. Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C.
Big Barda: The scan in which she fights Wonder Woman happens in 1996, her pre-clayface self. Given as we'll talk later about Lobo getting hammered, scaling to him isn't too solid either. As such, she should simply be placed at Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C.
Martian Manhunter: In his first scan, he primarily takes Wonder Woman by surprise, and given how they're all specifically trying to restrain him, it's pretty doubtful all of them would be trying to use their full strength against MMH. Furthermore, this is also a pre-clayface Diana he's facing. Him scaling to Black Adam is ok at a glance, but Black Adam being already weakened here + MMH not doing much substantial damage and losing shortly after does make the scaling overall iffier for him. As for Kyle, given as stated with the others, Kyle as a character doesn't operate at his peak on most circumstances, it also makes the scaling here iffier as well. Given he does seem to come off mostly fine from an angry Barda, I think scaling him to her is ok-ish for the most part. Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C
Despero: Scaling primarily comes from Martian Manhunter so he goes down as well. Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
Plastic Man: Same deal with Despero. Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C
Lobo: Him scaling to Despero means his scaling goes down as well. Furthermore, he mostly hinges on scaling to characters like Supes and Shazam who primarily hold back, especially with Shazam where in their fight in L.E.G.I.O.N. '91 #31, the latter admits to trying to pull his own punches the entire fight. And outside of catching him off guard, Lobo doesn't do all that much damage in their fight. Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C.
Donna Troy: Very self explanatory. Pretty much no justification is given for her being comparable of Wonder Woman or whatnot. Unless some other scaling outlet is given, she should simply scale to her 5-B feat.
Starfire: Her defeating Donna Troy should warrant her a 5-B. Regarding Envy, it's a bit hard to argue that Envy was truly using Wonder Woman's full power to its highest extent when Envy was shown struggling with utilizing Barry's power effectively. And while yeah, a Barry at the height of his powers is definitely higher than Diana. Starfire also struggling with someone like Donna also makes her scaling to Diana questionable. As for Deliverance, there's not much to place him at Low 1-C, but at the very least, he should be scaling to other New God's and their Low 2-C feat. 5-B, possibly Low 2-C at her peak
Blackfire: Post-Crisis Hawks don't have a profile rn nor do they have much related to Tier 1. Regarding Jade, Lanterns vary via concentration, Jade is distracted by smth and probably isn't expecting Blackfire to start attacking the construct while having what seems like a peaceful convo with Starfire. Finally for Starro, given he varies a lot depending on the Starro's age and host, and with just the scan given, there's not a whole lot to go off of. She should simply scale to her sister. 5-B, possibly Low 2-C at her peak.
Pages for deletion:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ursa_(Post-Crisis)
Pretty self explanatory, really barebones profile, and she's generally not are really relevant for scaling.
