Sonic Shuffle conclusion + 06 revision

[ShadowWarrior1999]

On this previous thread, it was agreed that the Sonic Shuffle game is canon, thus Illumina would lose the non-canon characters tag.

It was also approved by Dark649 that a thread could be made upgrading Solaris and the super hedgehogs to 2-B via scaling Solaris to Maginaryworld.

To explain this, Eggman says Solaris would consume all existing timelines/dimensions. There's also this page from the official guidebook that states Solaris would "transform everything into nothing." Now to clear up a common misconception from this scan, while it says to "stop Solaris before it permanently rends the fabric of the universe" this does not mean that Solaris was only a threat to Sonic's universe. From further context due to Eggman's statement, it can be deduced that "everything into nothing" here means that Solaris would erase all of reality. Of course, this would include Sonic's universe so the goal of stopping Solaris from destroying it would be no different if Solaris was multiversal. Also from the guidebook is this page which states Solaris "has the power to destroy time and space itself."

So I addressed that Solaris would destroy all of existence, meaning the entire verse. If Sonic Shuffle is canon, then this would include Maginaryworld, which contains countless universes made from everyone's dreams. While it isn't directly stated that Solaris would destroy the Maginaryworld, it doesn't have to be, as this is a sensible conclusion from Solaris being able to destroy everything. Additionally, Eggman was in Sonic Shuffle, meaning he knows of Maginaryworld's existence, shown here: Sonic and his friends must battle not only Void, but also Eggman, who learned of the power of the Precioustone and followed Sonic into Maginaryworld. Therefore, it makes sense that when Eggman said Solaris would destroy all universes, it includes the ones inside Maginaryworld.

The upgrade would thus look like this:

Solaris will go from 2-C to 2-B.

Super Sonic, Super Shadow, and Super Silver will be At least 5-A to 2-C to 2-B. The 2-C is kept as Super Sonic's feats in the Sonic Rush series are 2-C, however it will be baseline. 2-B and immeasurable speed is added for scaling to Solaris.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree.

Imma go hide under a rock now

 

[BlastX]

Agree

 

[RotofBots]

I agree with this except for Immeasurable speed.

It was rejected in the past by multiple staff.

 

[Blueblur24]

Well it seem that in the original thread everything was pretty much agreed upon. So if it counts for anything I agree with the upgrade.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree with this except for Immeasurable speed.
It was rejected in the past by multiple staff.

Dark649 and Sera said immeasurable was fine for the hedgehogs.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with the OP

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Although I do agree with 2-B Solaris, which I'll explain more on later, Sonic I don't agree with the 2-B cast and here's why. My main points are from Sonic Rush, Rush Adventure, and 06, so let's begin.

In Rush you have the stereotypical endangerment of both universes. It's the negative result when two emerald sets are in the same dimension and have their power unchecked. This is very important to note because the careless actions of the emeralds lead to disastrous consequences. The emeralds can't control their powers alone, and those who cannot control their power cannot hold back. If they were 2-B the entire multiverse would have been at stake, not just the two dimensions. This throws 2-B out the window.

In Rush Adventure you fight the Egg Wizard, who holds the Power of The Stars. The Power of the Stars are stated to sustain parallel worlds and are capable of merging two worlds together. Even when not harnessing its full power, it's too strong for a Super Form to handle by itself. Two Super Forms are needed to defeat the Egg Wizard.

Lastly we have Sonic 06 and I've said this over and over again, Solaris should have two keys. In this case phase one is 2-C and phase two is 2-B. His first phase is not like a base form, it's his weakened / suppressed state. Solaris was anchored by the light shells and stuck in a form fodder in comparison to his true Phoenix form, where he's able to use his full power. Phase one is unquantifiably weaker than phase two but he's superior to the Egg Salamander and, more likely than not, the Egg Wizard who are like baseline+. The Supers only scale to phase one.

Super Sonic having these 2-C feats are quite consistent. Sonic jumping from baseline 2-C to countless 2-B is a huge jump and the same reason why Sonic doesn't have immeasurable speed. It'll be quite hypocritical for people to disagree with immeasurable speed then suddenly agree with that and 2-B. Nothing really changed, so why the sudden agreement? It's a little sus if you ask me.

Now to refute some points people would bring up.

> The feat in Sonic Rush was a side effect.

No it wasn't it was literally the main and only thing that was going on. If it was a side effect then it wouldn't have been the main problem.

> Solaris is 2-B in all forms because Eggman said so.

Yeah but Eggman isn't God. He only vaguely knew that Solaris was gonna destroy the multiverse. His knowledge is also pretty inconsistent with Solaris. He somehow knew that the light shells were anchoring him but he was surprised by Solaris's true form. Talk about bad writing. Not to mention that Solaris wasn't at his best while anchored.

> Even if he was anchored he should have 2-B durability regardless.

First off that would be head canon. Second, Solaris had to have the light shells broken then physically had to transform into his second state to get stronger. The Supers couldn't even harm Solaris after he transformed.

To give an example we have Ifrit. He's stated to destroy planets, which would likely be 5-A in the Sonic verse. Sonic then fights Ifrit, while weakened, but he's not 5-A. Their both High 6-A and this exact same case happened with Solaris. So that's a no on 2-B immeasurable Supers. Solaris should get two keys. Phase 1 is 2-C MFTL+ and Phase 2 is 2-B immeasurable.

I'm gonna be honest I was looking forward to 2-B Supers, I saw all the potential matches I could make. However I saw immeasurable speed and had to point out these glaring issues.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Zamasu Chan This is basically the same thing you said in that thread when you tried to downgrade Solaris to Low 2-C and it was debunked.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No it's not.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

"ShadowWarrior vs Zamasu Chan: The Sequel"

seriously, what's with Sonic threads and endless back and forth and gisp gallop

 

[BlastX]

Are we doing this again?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

No it's not.

Yes, on a previous thread you proposed to split Solaris into a Phase 1 and a Phase 2 key, with Phase 1 being Low 2-C and Phase 2 being 2-C. This is basically the same exact thing except you want 2-C Phase 1 and 2-B Phase 2. This was already rejected.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Remember when the staff agreed that super Sonic should be downgraded from immeasurable? With a 2-B Solaris it's the same thing, and with people agreeing with that makes it a double standard.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

It was infinite, not immeasurable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Zamasu makes a pretty good point about 2-B Hedgehogs, but I'm more neutral on that. But I assuradly agree that Immeasurable speed is not legit for the Super Hedgehogs.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Immeasurable was still rejected for the same reason.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

I've argued with the usual suspects too many times,I'm sitting this one out.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nobody scales to Solaris. The Super Sonics were explicitely hitting a weak point and doing no damage whatsoever prior to that.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Matt If you mean Solaris's core then they targeted it in order to stop his consciousness. Even so there would be no reason to assume it was unfathomably weaker than the rest of his body.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But it's a weak point, explicitely the only reason they beat him. Making the feat unquantifiable.

 

[BlastX]

Wouldn' Solaris destroy itself if it's core is that weak?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

In Phase 1 they blast off Solaris's armor.

The super states also don't get one-shotted by Solaris's attacks.

 

[BlastX]

...Didn't consider that too

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Oy vey,so much centention.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

I'll just make my own Vs wiki,with Black Jack & Hookers. XD

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I agree.

Imma go hide under a rock now

hey give me some space will ya? (also i agree)

 

[The_Smashor]

I agree with 2-B Solaris and Super States.

Since 2-B super states were used only for Solaris and it wouldn't scale to 5-A to 2-C (And 4-A if that ever gets added back witch it should) super states I think Immeasureable speed is good too. There is literally no room for it to be an outlier. Immeasureable dosn't just mean being able to travel through time, even when only being in one time your far faster then an infinite.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Super Sonic has like 0 Infinite/Immeasurable speed feats though, and is clearly shown only finite speeds in every corner including their fight with Solaris.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Solaris has immeasurable speed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, Solaris does, but he never used that speed against Sonic and the others.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Except in any instance where he moves his body?

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Silver & Shadow literally casually travel to the Past/Future by moving,sweep that under the rug all you want,Kids

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not casual at all and only via transportation. They never once moved so fast that Tails, Amy, and Eggman couldn't at least see them move or take hits. The entire battle would have taken place where all of them were statues if they were all truly Infinite let alone Immeasurable. And Solaris anchors prevented him from reacting at Immeasurable speeds also.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"Tails, Amy, and Eggman."

This falls under the Talking is a free actio trope.

By this logic super states shouldn't even by MFTL+.

Also no, Solaris's transcendent nature allows him to be omnipresent through time. Any movement he makes would be immeasurable, anchored or not.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Oh,Daaaaaamn!!

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not quite, Massively FTL+ is still a countable, finite speed regardless of characters being only 2x slower or a million times slower; not Infinite or Uncountable number times greater. People can still see airplanes and meteors move from a distance, but it's impossible to see instant transmission move. The Super forms are Massively FTL+ sure, but they're still visible when they get knocked around.

Being Transcendent doesn't mean the character moves at Immeasurable speed at every action they do; he can still choose to move slower than that if he wishes too. His "Anchors" are also went prevent him from moving or fighting at Immeasurable speeds to begin with.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I'm overall neutral on this matter (although those who are for the upgrade have presented a more compelling argument imo, for the time being).

Btw how do MFTL+ characters manage to react as well as dodged attacks and keep up with a character with immeasurable speed? (Unbound Solaris).

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Why would a character hellbent on destroying creation purposely slow down two infinities to gets his ass handed to him?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah no Immeasurable my dudes.