Sonic Shuffle conclusion + 06 revision

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree with Axiom.

Solaris was also reborn using the Chaos Emeralds.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

So are "weak points."

Weak points aren't gameplay mechanics when the idea extrapolated idea is taken from in game dialogue and when the Prima Guide literally states it's its Achilles Heel. To give context, an Achilles Heel by definition is, "a weakness or vulnerable point." Achilles was basically immortal and untouchable anywhere on his body except his heel, where he was far more vulnerable and susceptible. You aren't going to devalue a legitimate weakness down to "just a game mechanic," they were targetting it irrefutably in Stage 2 in order to harm him.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Inverted Tempest And I explained that it's a weak point because it contains his consciousness, not because it's literally countless times less durable than the rest of his body. That would be ridiculous. They had to stop Solaris's consciousness.

"A consciousness? Hmm that's it. That's his core. Even if we can't stop his form, we can stop his consciousness."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Super Sonics fighting Solaris is an outlier anyway

 

[ShakeResounding]

I thought this "Solaris is an outlier" stuff was dealt with a while ago. Guess not.

Solaris was the biggest threat throughout the entirety of the Sonic franchise, and that was pretty much made evident as soon as he started threatening all of existence. It wouldn't be fallicious to assume that the Chaos Emeralds peaked in power against it, as there hasn't been a threat like that ever since. Not even the Time Eater comes close.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

You're using a red herring and trying to address a point I never made. If they have to attack his core in general, that would literally imply they can't hurt him otherwise, especially when it's implied by the guides. So regardless of whatever point you're refuting, that doesn't mitigate the ideological notion in of itself that Solaris had to be targeted in a spot that was vulnerable to defeat it. And if you're just trying to imply it's just because it's the core of its being which that is in reference to, that wouldn't solely justify it as a vantage point to target in of itself if it was as durable as the rest of his body, it is contextually supported against if you're trying to substantiate this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The only reason Solaris was defeated was do to the Chaos Emeralds' positive energy being his kryptonite or some shit like that.

 

[Wokistan]

Couldn't shadow directly damage Solaris via shooting it?

Still gonna say no to immeasurable though. Solaris had that negged, and having the trio fight it at different points in time was specifically to counter it's weird existence anyways.

Though, I'm not sure how much the "weak point" argument really holds here. People aren't having their feats discredited based on hitting necks and heads and stuff, even though they can't take as much punishment as the tosro or limbs. It's a weaker spot yeah, but it shouldn't be so absurdly weaker that it isn't even the same tier.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

You're using a red herring and trying to address a point I never made. If they have to attack his core in general, that would literally imply they can't hurt him otherwise, especially when it's implied by the guides. So regardless of whatever point you're refuting, that doesn't mitigate the ideological notion in of itself that Solaris had to be targeted in a spot that was vulnerable to defeat it. And if you're just trying to imply it's just because it's the core of its being which that is in reference to, that wouldn't solely justify it as a vantage point to target in of itself if it was as durable as the rest of his body, it is contextually supported against if you're trying to substantiate this.

Even if you want to go the route that it was physically weaker, Solaris is a countless 2-B so his core being weak enough that baseline 2-Cs could harm it is completely illogical. That's like saying a spec of dust can hurt me if it hits my stomach.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A spec of dust would hurt if it hits your eyes though.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Because it causes irritation.

 

[Wokistan]

Eh, not really. It's barely large enough to percieve, I'm pretty sure stuff like that is entering my eye all the time. It's a minor annoyance at worst, not something that can straight up kill me.

I think the more important part is that they are still able to take down his armor in the first phase. They don't scale to it's full strength, but they should somewhat be comparable.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Agree with 2-B Super Forms and Solaris, the arguments against it make no sense.

Neutral on Immensurable speed.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Also, if the weak point argument is used here, Super Sonic wouldn't even be 5-A, since he has to hit Dark Gaia's weak point to win against her.

I guess Link also wouldn't scale to Zelda bosses, because he has to hit their weak point.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Crimson, False equivalency. The difference is that Super Sonic actually does physically overpower Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia; and 5-A comes from scaling from Chaos Emeralds negative energy. And the Link one is a bad argument, there are bosses that don't have weak points and even ones with weak points are more than just eyeballs; and he does wrestle them. And especially Ganondorf who doesn't have those same weak points as well and is instead just direct strikes.

Base Sonic for instance is literally the equivalent of a Bee stinging an elephant in the eye; and for Solaris, Immeasurable was rejected so that's not going to happen, but 2-B is a bit more neutral.

 

[DMB_1]

Neutral on this.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Couldn't shadow directly damage Solaris via shooting it?

Still gonna say no to immeasurable though. Solaris had that negged, and having the trio fight it at different points in time was specifically to counter it's weird existence anyways.

Though, I'm not sure how much the "weak point" argument really holds here. People aren't having their feats discredited based on hitting necks and heads and stuff, even though they can't take as much punishment as the tosro or limbs. It's a weaker spot yeah, but it shouldn't be so absurdly weaker that it isn't even the same tier.

Solaris needed to be attacked in all points in time simultaneously to be defeated. Solaris also never had his speed negged and he was only anchored in Phase 1.

Another thing is that Sonic is visibly able to push back Solaris by ramming into him.

 

[DMB_1]

Solaris needed to be attacked in all points in time simultaneously to be defeated. Solaris also never had his speed negged and he was only anchored in Phase 1.

Another thing is that Sonic is visibly able to push back Solaris by ramming into him.

By that logic, the Hegdehogs would be able to blitz Solars in Phase 1.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

That's pretty much my stance too.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Point is, there's no proof Solaris weak point is as weak as people are making it out to be, as well as the fact that the Super Forms still keep up with Phase 2.

Also, i think Solaris's thing is Omnipresence through time, not really immensurable speed.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

By that logic, the Hegdehogs would be able to blitz Solars in Phase 1.

Well Solaris certainly didn't blitz them.

 

[DMB_1]

Sonic pushing back Solaris is AP, at best Lifting Strenght, but you could also argue that because of his weak spot, he was pushed out of either pain or vulnerability.

Also, question, why is Illumina immeasurable with no justification for it?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@DMB 1 He was doing it in Phase 1 as well.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

> I explicitly asked how can only MFTL+ characters keep up with a character with "immeasurable" speed (Solaris Unbound) aka 2nd phase when Solaris is at full power or is it being assumed he's doesn't have immeasurable reaction's and combat speed too? (despite being no longer anchored by the light shells).

It's because they don't jump tiers mid battle. They only scale to phase 1 and that's it.

> Also the weak point argument is "weak", if I remember correctly in SA2 it was stated in-game that Biolizard was "invincible" moreover conventional attacks don't work on him (you needed to hit his weak point aka his core to hurt him) and the same thing happened to Finalhazard the super hedgehogs couldn't harm him directly so they needed to hit his weak point yet they still scale to him so why doesn't this apply to Solaris?.

They don't scale to the Biolizard, the Biolizard scales from them. It wouldn't matter anyway because the low ends already have feats that are 5-A from different scenarios. It just means that the Biolizard is much stronger than other 5-A characters.

> To answer Zamasu's question, it has being explicitly stated multiple times that the emeralds are sentient (plus it has already being agreed on that the emeralds have a variable tier of power). In Sonic Rush the Sol emeralds were forcibly taken into Sonic's dimension and it caused two dimensions to merge yet in Rush adventure it was heavily implied that the Chaos emeralds willingly brought Sonic & Tails to Blaze's dimension and surprise the dimensions weren't merging this time, I wonder why?.

Rotfl if the chaos emeralds are sooo sentient, why would they allow the universes to be destroyed? Or why don't they just automatically shut down any bad machine their used for? That just proves their lack of control, they're just a plot device. Also the variable tier argument is meaningless. I mean seriously, how do you hold back if you can't even control your power? You didn't answer my question, you danced around it.

@Shadow So what if Solaris was awakened by the emeralds? Negative energy caps at 5-A unless you think Solaris is a good guy. Also if you wanna use that argument then fine, the emeralds lacked the capacity to bring him to full power, which would explain why he was anchored.

@Everyone else Solaris is an outlier for the same reason immeasurable speed is an outlier. If you disagree with immeasurable speed then it'll be hypocritical to agree with 2-B. Solaris phase 1 is not a first form, it's a weakened state that he can't transform out of by himself. You guys are missing the point and are really pushing it for 2-B.

The Supers ONLY scale to phase 1 who had his speed and power negged. They. Don't. Jump. Tiers. Mid. Battle. If someone is anchored that means they're unintentionally unable to use the full potential of their power and have their movements limited.

For the last ******* time Solaris was weakened in his anchored weaker form. There is absolutely no reason to scale the Supers to a peak Solaris. It's one of the reasons why Base Sonic isn't 5-A via Ifrit. It's like saying base Goku is UI level because he fought a weakened Jiren. There's also Chrono, who Cal brought up earlier. It's as simple as that, stop being so ignorant.

 

[DMB_1]

Also, question, why is Illumina immeasurable with no justification for it?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Zamasu Chan Solaris did nothing wrong.

For real, you could make the case that Mephiles was filled with joy after he killed Sonic and broke the seal on Iblis, thus these positive emotions allowed him to use the full power of the Emeralds in order to revive Solaris as a super-dimensional being.

Stop bringing up Ifrit. Ifrit isn't 5-A because world destroying is rated as High 6-A. Simple as that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Aight, time to give my honest, ubiased opinion on the matter.

>Reads thread

>Walks away

 

[Andytrenom]

The real Hal Coward

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Aight, time to give my honest, ubiased opinion on the matter.

>Reads thread

>Walks away

Yeah this is me at this point lmao

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

In all seriousness, I'll give my opinion later. I'm okay with worst-sonic-villain getting upgraded, less so on literally everything else mentioned in the OP. Only reason Super Sonic scaled to Solaris in the first place is because of the other 2-C feats, and even then it was heavily contested. If Solaris wasn't an outlier back then, it certainly is now.

 

[DMB_1]

In all seriousness, I'll give my opinion later. I'm okay with worst-sonic-villain getting upgraded-

But Zavok isn't affcted by this

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Phase 1 is still 2-B. Eggman states it's destructive capapability & it's Super-Dimensional existence in this form.Stop using the anchoring as a crutch,there's no further context as to what it was in the first place.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Even if you want to go the route that it was physically weaker, Solaris is a countless 2-B so his core being weak enough that baseline 2-Cs could harm it is completely illogical. That's like saying a spec of dust can hurt me if it hits my stomach.

Okay, so you completely misunderstood what I said and resorted to this again. That isn't a good refute whatsoever, we'd assume the fact he CAN be harmed by 2-Cs as further proof of this weak spot. You're substantiating your point from pure belief rather than logic when evidence that was presented dictates against what you're saying.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Inverted Tempest Or the logical approach would be that Sonic, Shadow, and Silver were 2-B in the fight against Solaris.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Agree with 2-B Super Forms and Solaris, the arguments against it make no sense.
Neutral on Immensurable speed.

No, not really. I think people would be fine with 2-B if the points being used to defend a 2-B Super Sonic by the main supporters on this thread weren't erroneous.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

@Inverted Tempest Or the logical approach would be that Sonic, Shadow, and Silver were 2-B in the fight against Solaris.

I've already explained this to you and how this logic is incorrect. Your substantiation takes far more assumptions than the proposition I gave.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

> I explicitly asked how can only MFTL+ characters keep up with a character with "immeasurable" speed (Solaris Unbound) aka 2nd phase when Solaris is at full power or is it being assumed he's doesn't have immeasurable reaction's and combat speed too? (despite being no longer anchored by the light shells).

It's because they don't jump tiers mid battle. They only scale to phase 1 and that's it.

> Also the weak point argument is "weak", if I remember correctly in SA2 it was stated in-game that Biolizard was "invincible" moreover conventional attacks don't work on him (you needed to hit his weak point aka his core to hurt him) and the same thing happened to Finalhazard the super hedgehogs couldn't harm him directly so they needed to hit his weak point yet they still scale to him so why doesn't this apply to Solaris?.

They don't scale to the Biolizard, the Biolizard scales from them. It wouldn't matter anyway because the low ends already have feats that are 5-A from different scenarios. It just means that the Biolizard is much stronger than other 5-A characters.

> To answer Zamasu's question, it has being explicitly stated multiple times that the emeralds are sentient (plus it has already being agreed on that the emeralds have a variable tier of power). In Sonic Rush the Sol emeralds were forcibly taken into Sonic's dimension and it caused two dimensions to merge yet in Rush adventure it was heavily implied that the Chaos emeralds willingly brought Sonic & Tails to Blaze's dimension and surprise the dimensions weren't merging this time, I wonder why?.

Rotfl if the chaos emeralds are sooo sentient, why would they allow the universes to be destroyed? Or why don't they just automatically shut down any bad machine their used for? That just proves their lack of control, they're just a plot device. Also the variable tier argument is meaningless. I mean seriously, how do you hold back if you can't even control your power? You didn't answer my question, you danced around it.

@Shadow So what if Solaris was awakened by the emeralds? Negative energy caps at 5-A unless you think Solaris is a good guy. Also if you wanna use that argument then fine, the emeralds lacked the capacity to bring him to full power, which would explain why he was anchored.

@Everyone else Solaris is an outlier for the same reason immeasurable speed is an outlier. If you disagree with immeasurable speed then it'll be hypocritical to agree with 2-B. Solaris phase 1 is not a first form, it's a weakened state that he can't transform out of by himself. You guys are missing the point and are really pushing it for 2-B.

The Supers ONLY scale to phase 1 who had his speed and power negged. They. Don't. Jump. Tiers. Mid. Battle. If someone is anchored that means they're unintentionally unable to use the full potential of their power and have their movements limited.

For the last ******* time Solaris was weakened in his anchored weaker form. There is absolutely no reason to scale the Supers to a peak Solaris. It's one of the reasons why Base Sonic isn't 5-A via Ifrit. It's like saying base Goku is UI level because he fought a weakened Jiren. There's also Chrono, who Cal brought up earlier. It's as simple as that, stop being so ignorant.

So what does calling the emeralds a 'plot device' have to with power-scaling?, (sure they are mcguffins but there's countless mcguffins in fiction so what?).

Also it was already agreed by a large consensus that the Chaos emeralds do have a variable tier, yet you called that "meaningless" and threw ad hominem's at the franchise (sure there is PiS in the franchise but there's no need to take a rude tone).

Furthermore you didn't answer my question either you simply played the outlier card with no reasoning behind that statement and saying stuff like Solaris only used negative energy, his power was negated (phase 1), the chaos emeralds couldn't bring him to full power etc is pure head-canon.

Lastly calling folks who don't follow your reasoning "ignorant" isn't helping your case mate!.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Power Of The Stars is most certainly 2-B aswell,it seperates & sustains the existence of parallel dimensions in general,not just Sonic's & Blaze's.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I've already explained this to you and how this logic is incorrect. Your substantiation takes far more assumptions than the proposition I gave.

No, I am choosing to use common sense. Solaris's core having 2-C durability when he can destroy a 2-B multiverse with sheer power makes no sense, unless you want to assume his core would somehow get destroyed in the process.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Power Of The Stars is most certainly 2-B aswell,it seperates & sustains the existence of parallel dimensions in general,not just Sonic's & Blaze's.

What is the proof it supports to that extent?