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He says that for all his SSJ transformations matter of fact in the manga he had to specify to Beerus that it was a form of SSJ. But aside from your ridiculous use of Whis' knowledge of Saiyan power, it is objectively SSJ2.
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SSJ2 and SSJ3 Multipliers
- Thread starter Jaakor48
- Start date
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I was gonna mention this but that’s pretty nitpicky we clearly see the hair bangs and the lighting aura that’s like arguing if goku went ssj3 or not because Whis just called it super saiyan
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well we are talking about the anime, could you give examples of him calling any of his transformations not by the name but just as "super sayian"?
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This would only work for Toei, but pretty sure we can scale SSJ2 above Super Kaioken, which is a x2 increase over Super Saiyan (Since it's Kaioken stacked up on Super Saiyan)
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Narratively it would make sense too as Zamasu's power was rivaling that of Base Black when he fought an objectively SSJ2 Goku.
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- Thread starter
- #126
Ssj2 Goku being noted to be "tens of times" above base also backs the x2 minimum, as 100 is still under tens if times, until you get to 190, then it becomes hundreds of times (although tens of times still works, but would be highly redundant, even so, a similar statement was used for the potara fusion iirc, and it's way more than just traditional tens), we know it's not 10-50x, which leaves 60-190x based on that statement. 100 falls right within it. The support from the manga for 50x ssj comes from it being stronger than 40x base Goku, wich means 50x falls within the statement, why can't ssj2 get the same treatment?
You must be joking
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Tens doesn’t mean 100
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Tens just means 20+, anyone who disagrees with that is wrong.
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Tens of Times has objectively meant always anywhere from 20-199 as then it would move over to Hundreds of Times. Normally people would just say dozens of times until the multiples of 12 exceeded 200, rarely is Tens of Times even used. So absolutely 100x would fall into the tens of times. It sure as hell wouldn't be hundreds of times nor would it be dozens because 100 is not a multiple of Twelve. Not that difficult y'all lol.
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It would fall within it, but literally anything could be tens of times.
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So what do yall think about upscaling SSJ2 over Super Kaioken?
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For the Toei Anime? Absolutely.
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Right so we would know that the SSJ2 multiplier would be greater than 50x (Or greater than Tens of Times =< 50x) Because SSJ1 is objectively that much over Base. This would give better support to use the 2x multiplier because we know 2x50 for SSJ2 is a bare minimum and it should be much higher meaning there's nothing wrong with a SSJ2 multiple being anywhere from 100x-200x base form. And it would be consistent with the statement.
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Oh, for a supporting feat??? I absolutely agree.
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And, I mean, if we accept GT as a parallel timeline...
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SSJ2 being anywhere from 2x-4x SSJ1 or (MSSJ depending on the user) would be consistent for all canons IMO (Scaling to or Above SSJ Kaioken for Toei which is 2x boost on SSJ which was used to get the AP advantage over someone that was stronger than Super Perfect Cell; Being stated to be 10s of Times stronger than Base in Super; The Super Exciting Guides)
I don't see the problem with a 2x-4x lowball for SSJ2
I don't see the problem with a 2x-4x lowball for SSJ2
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It's > Grade 2 and 3 as well, yeah?
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Babidi considered Base to SSJ2 a laughable increase while being shook by the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3
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That's just because he didn't sense his energy. SSJ3 was shaking the world with aura alone, hence the surprise.
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Lol if you think SSJ1 or 2 has a higher multiplier than 3
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No facts I didn't even begin to discuss SSJ3, Every time someone (Goku) jumped from SSJ2 to SSJ3 it was big reaction to its power. But my argument here is on the SSJ2 multiplier for now
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Ain't no way 3 is 50x 2. That was already debunked.
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3 being anything lower than 50 doesn’t make sense narratively
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50 times as strong as 2???
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I’ve seen arguments for SS3 being 50x above SS2 from scaling to pre RoSAT SS1 Gotenks , as he is SS2 Goku level in base.
Can’t vouch for their legitimacy though.
Can’t vouch for their legitimacy though.
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No, we said that was incorrect, since we base one of those statements off Krillin's words, and the other of Piccolo's.
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I can see x4 ssj2 but let’s keep calm from 50 ssj2 we still barely holding onto 2x Ssj for ssj2
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wtf
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Please help me Tempest
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- Thread starter
- #152
50 ssj2 for ssj3 has no basis whatsoever
As for ssj2, let's focus on that first
We were given a multiplier
A canon statement puts it as tens of times boost, which objectively includes the x2 statement, providing a canon support statement which most people have been harping on, it's also above ssj grade 2 and 3
We also have canon feats, with Gohan vs cell, and even Kefla vs Goku, where her ssj-ssj2 boost gave her the power edge over as kk*20 - UIO2 Goku, even though his speed hax gave him the win.
In toei, as said above, it can be scaled above the super kaioken which is a x2
Also special note
DBS manga trunks' ssj2 version has a much higher multiplier than others, being able to power up to equal ssj3 Goku's boost.
Is there any actual reason not to accept this so we can face ssj3?
As for ssj2, let's focus on that first
We were given a multiplier
A canon statement puts it as tens of times boost, which objectively includes the x2 statement, providing a canon support statement which most people have been harping on, it's also above ssj grade 2 and 3
We also have canon feats, with Gohan vs cell, and even Kefla vs Goku, where her ssj-ssj2 boost gave her the power edge over as kk*20 - UIO2 Goku, even though his speed hax gave him the win.
In toei, as said above, it can be scaled above the super kaioken which is a x2
Also special note
DBS manga trunks' ssj2 version has a much higher multiplier than others, being able to power up to equal ssj3 Goku's boost.
Is there any actual reason not to accept this so we can face ssj3?
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- Thread starter
- #154
Not sure what that's supposed to prove, tens of times objectively starts at 2 tens (20) and ends at 190, with 200 usually entering the more common hundreds, just as the far more common "dozens of times" starts from 2 dozen (24) and ends at the 200 mark
100x objectively falls under '10s of times' quantification
100x objectively falls under '10s of times' quantification
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Sorry, but whoever's trying to use exponents for "tens of times" just needs to stop. It's trying to create something out of nothing.
Anyways, multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 shouldn't be used. Even the closest ones to accurate are contradicted by the forms' showings themselves.
Anyways, multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 shouldn't be used. Even the closest ones to accurate are contradicted by the forms' showings themselves.
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- Thread starter
- #156
Tens of times is used as a supporting statement for a given multiplier which falls under it's range, there is no "creating out of nothing"
Just saying "can't be used" is not an argument, and as for "accuracy", that's the point of the form having an objective lowball, so unless you have any shred of proof that x2 is bigger than the boost it gives, it doesn't affect x2 being an objective lowball, especially with both fearts and statements supporting it, the entire point of this thread was to make a low balled multiplier
These forms literally have no multiplier on this site which, ironically makes it even more inaccurate than an objectively accurate lowball
Just saying "can't be used" is not an argument, and as for "accuracy", that's the point of the form having an objective lowball, so unless you have any shred of proof that x2 is bigger than the boost it gives, it doesn't affect x2 being an objective lowball, especially with both fearts and statements supporting it, the entire point of this thread was to make a low balled multiplier
These forms literally have no multiplier on this site which, ironically makes it even more inaccurate than an objectively accurate lowball
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Comparing the support for SSJ's multiplier compared to SSJ2's and SSJ3's shows how incomparable they are.
SSJ has the backing of Toriyama, its performance against Frieza compared to a Kaioken x20, etc.
SSJ2 and SSJ3 are... large power boosts and that's it, with the only quantifiable thing being a less than solid statement given its source
SSJ has the backing of Toriyama, its performance against Frieza compared to a Kaioken x20, etc.
SSJ2 and SSJ3 are... large power boosts and that's it, with the only quantifiable thing being a less than solid statement given its source
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How goes it if the proposed multipliers are inconsistent with the actual accepted AP keys of the characters? I.e. giving some single digit multiplier to SSJ3 despite the fact say, Toei Goku goes to literally 3-C from 4-B between SSJ2 and SSJ3 (10^21 times difference). I dunno about SSJ2 but SSJ3 is definitely better off left unquantifed than given a value that contradicts the profiles.
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Bruhs need to calm down with that tens of times malarkey. That could just mean 60x for all we know. It's kind of supporting evidence, but it's nowhere near enough to even slightly support a multiplier when everything at or above Kaioken x20 can be placed into this category.
I said it's fine for all SS2s that don't scale directly to Gohan if that's within the rules.
As far as I can tell, it's not within the rules, so I don't really agree or disagree.
To be crystal clear, I didn't really agree to applying it.
I said it's fine for all SS2s that don't scale directly to Gohan if that's within the rules.
As far as I can tell, it's not within the rules, so I don't really agree or disagree.
Almost everyone's against 4x, especially me.
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Maybe he has a stronger base?
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