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Superman tier upgrade

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The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
It's fine if you don't have knowledge on DC, I myself stopped reading a comics awhile ago when Perpetua was first introduced, but I feel it makes your arguments stronger if you have the context ya know?
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I'm not really arguing

But if there are alot of tier 5 feats then why is most of DC 4-B?
 
DaReaperMan said:
I'm not really arguing

But if there are alot of tier 5 feats then why is most of DC 4-B?
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I believe it was supposed to be the highest level they've consistently shown.

Anyways, if Superman does get upgraded in any way, it would probably be "4-B, possibly/at most Low 2-C". If that were to be the case, I'd use the Nebula Man feat (seems to be a compressed Universe that couldn't expand (Seven Soldiers Frankenstein #7), supported by the 4D explosion (since Morrison definitely knows 4D), Where is Thy Sting's possibility of being legit (Death implies it is), and maybe even Mageddon (said to be Universal, JLA #36/41). The Superman vs Superman fight could also be supporting evidence I guess, but the whole "Universe is damaged" thing makes it too unquantifiable imo. Feats where he takes on Universal characters like 30th century Mordru with help might be supporting evidence as well? Overall though, I find the upgrade highly unlikely and it will probably become a discussion rule not to try to upgrade him.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
About the shattering space time continuums with Superman and Golden Age Superman, didn't that particular story show that the boundaries between universes were weakened? At least that's what I've heard
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Yeah pretty much. There's only one direct statement for it to my knowledge and it's from an unreliable source, but it seems fine from a holistic stance. The events of Infinite Crisis inherently would weaken the Universe. At best it's a supporting feat, if even.
 
Here is a response to Ehnkr2beboh.

"First off, it's debatable if the "destroying the Universe" part in the first place is legit, but enough sources imply that it is for me to believe it. The issue is that this takes place during Infinite Crisis, when the Multiverse was unstable due to tons of reality shenanigans."

Unstable doesn't mean easily breakable. And its still the whole universe, and no matter how unstable it might get, this feat is still clear cut Low 2-C. Your not having a Tier 4 breaking apart the universe.

"The Oblivion Bomb was a chain-reaction kind of feat (some issue of Jack Kirby's Fourth World). The "1/5th" Universal one was via tapping into power sources."

Nothing much to say here. The device is a up to Low 2-C (would reverse this entire chain-reaction which would make the entire universe collapse into a black hole), but other than that this is correct. Citation for the last part is needed.

"You'd need to prove they were giving equal power. Assuming they were all giving the same amount of power is a blatant assumption."

I agree, though this does have some breathing room, since as already discussed Captain Adam>Superman on multiple occasions. Though as for this story I am uncertain, it is unreasonable to say that he didn't at least give 1/4th.

"I'll need the citations for this one."

Fair. Though since this is only comment on this part, i'll assume you agree but just would like further explanation.

"They quite clearly only beat him via depowering him by blitzing him through a red sun."

This is clearly stated in the scan itself, I agree.

"A lot of your feats are based on this Silver Age Superman scaling, so I'll debunk that. Post-Crisis fought a far older Golden Age Superman, who's power decreases with age (DC Comics Presents Annual 3). Eventually, he was blatantly weaker than Silver Age (DC Comics Presents Annual 1)"

This scan presented is from Justice League of America (1960) Issue #74, while DC Comics Presents Annual #1 is from September 1982.

"This is one of the ones I'm fine with, but the wiki isn't. I believe the problem is proving he was truly a full Universe?"

Pretty clear cut that they are.

"Superman had lots of help (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #3). Your own scans show this."

The Time Trapper scan also shows a clear one-on-one fight between the two, which also left Time Trapper significantly affected from the encounter.

"Monarch >>>> Superman (Countdown: Arena #1). As you can see, he casually beat him and said he was more powerful than any version of him in the Multiverse."

Monarch is canonically stronger than Superman, nothing really else to say.

"Why are tesseracts Universal?"

They are 4D, but 4D isn't Universal, just a dimensional state.

"I don't think Superman scaling to Starbreaker makes sense when he lost to him in Justice League of America #29."

Can you post direct scans? From what i've heard Starbreaker stomped Superman, so I can go along with this.

"We don't take "4D" stuff as Universal without further context. Also can you give the citation for recreating the timeline?"

4D stuff is a no, and I once again assume you agree, just need further context.

"I haven't read this comic ngl, but here's the wiki-accepted counter."

Nothin I can really say here.

"Imperiex Probes need machines to destroy galaxies (Action Comics #781) so I don't think they're Universal. You'd also need to show Universal Aquaman is consistent."

Imperiex Probes aren't Universal. Like straight up, that's a no.

"Superman is losing in the scans you posted but I haven't read the source comic in a while, but I still have the scan of Lex saying Superman scales below. I can go read the comic it's from soon though."

Superman downscales from her, and Supes was primarily losing due to her hax.

"It's highly debatable whether or not the events in Where is Thy Sting are just an illusion or not. The wiki accepts the former but I'm fine with either."

Nothing much to say here. I accept it as not an illusion, but you don't seem to have anything wrong with this.

"Same problem with the Wonder Woman feat. Although this is from JLA #42, a comic written by Grant Morrison, who has a good understanding of dimensions and the like. Don't know about the 2nd one though."

This one is a pretty clear cut 4D=Universal, for starters, the man is the Lord of Time, suggesting a mastery over the timeline, Grant Morrison treats the fourth dimension as the dimension of time, but the first scan is just a pure "4D doesn't mean Universal feat".

"The first scans don't work. But, the 2nd scans only work for a specific version of Firestorm when agitated, so you'd need to prove Supes scales to that version."

Pretty sure high-emotional turbulence doesn't mean just mad. But in defense of the defense, it was stated that there was a very small chance it could happen, not like he had the full power of a big bang, but that he had a small chance of triggering one.

"This is from Anarky #3. He had help from Anarky and needed his full power just to briefly contain it.

Anyways, there are a few feats I consider legitimate and some I think, while not full on Universal, support the case. However, after how many times it's been rejected, I don't think it's gonna work unfortunately."

I agree.
 
...Yes, unstable does mean easily breakable. It means it's a universe that isn't fully stable and isn't a durable as it normally is. Breaking down a wall with a massive crack in it isn't wall level. I'm not buying that breaking apart an unstable universe is Low 2-C.
 
The_Wright_Way said:
...Yes, unstable does mean easily breakable. It means it's a universe that isn't fully stable and isn't a durable as it normally is. Breaking down a wall with a massive crack in it isn't wall level. I'm not buying that breaking apart an unstable universe is Low 2-C.
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Universe is a 4-D structure, a weak 4-D structure still would be 4-D, unless it is stated that the universe on the case has become 3-D
 
Look, if we are going to be absolute dicks about this then maybe cool off a bit before ramming your head into this soon-to-be-shitshow.
 
The_Wright_Way said:
...Yes, unstable does mean easily breakable. It means it's a universe that isn't fully stable and isn't a durable as it normally is. Breaking down a wall with a massive crack in it isn't wall level. I'm not buying that breaking apart an unstable universe is Low 2-C.
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So, a High 3-A character can now destroy "unstable" Low 2-C universes?
 
Honestly I'm against getting rid of 4-B outright, it's also possible that this could be the case of different writers writing him with different limits. At most he should get a possibly/likely or something like that
 
For the record, being nice about your upgrades makes them a lot more likely to get passed. I still remember when DMC got upgraded to universal despite the rule against it at the time. It was really helped along by the fact that the OP was really nice about. If you want to be productive, maybe stop complaining.
 
I'm not complaining about a CRT of mine being closed, I'm complaining about people going into full "**** you" mode before the thread has even started, its just rude, this isnt something to get worked up about guys
Waka1979 said:
Also please consider how many characters this would scale to.
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Time... is a luxury I have!
 
Thanks for the responses! I definitely have disagreements though.
InfiniteDay said:
Unstable doesn't mean easily breakable. And its still the whole universe, and no matter how unstable it might get, this feat is still clear cut Low 2-C. Your
not having a Tier 4 breaking apart the universe.
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Easily breakable, probably not. It's still unquantifiable. The Multiverse being unstable would make it easier to break, that much should be undeniable. If you have evidence quantifying how weakened it was, I'd love to see it.
InfiniteDay said:
Nothing much to say here. The device is a up to Low 2-C (would reverse this entire chain-reaction which would make the entire universe collapse into a black hole), but other than that this is correct. Citation for the last part is needed.
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Could you clarify what you mean with the first part? I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing it's a Low 2-C feat for Orion. The "1/5th Universal" feat is from Cosmic Odyssey #4. It's also a chain reaction.
InfiniteDay said:
I agree, though this does have some breathing room, since as already discussed Captain Adam>Superman on multiple occasions. Though as for this story I am uncertain, it is unreasonable to say that he didn't at least give 1/4th.
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Er, care to elaborate why he would at least be giving 1/4th? Him helping could be 1/100th for all we know.
InfiniteDay said:
This scan presented is from Justice League of America (1960) Issue #74, while DC Comics Presents Annual #1 is from September 1982.
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I don't think you understand the point. There was a scan used from Infinite Crisis for Post-Crisis Superman scaling to Golden Age. However, it was stated in JLA #74 Golden Age started to decrease in power, and DC Comics Presents Annual #1 shows he was below Pre-Crisis. More time passes by until we get to Infinite Crisis, which has the same older Golden Age Superman (well he's actually even older than before, but you get the point).
InfiniteDay said:
"This is one of the ones I'm fine with, but the wiki isn't. I believe the problem is proving he was truly a full Universe?"

Pretty clear cut that they are.
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Yeah I'd say so. I don't remember the argument from the opposition though so I'd need one of them to show up.
InfiniteDay said:
The Time Trapper scan also shows a clear one-on-one fight between the two, which also left Time Trapper significantly affected from the encounter.
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You do have a point, but he definitely downscaled. It's probably still Universal though they fought for a prolonged period of time.
InfiniteDay said:
Can you post direct scans? From what i've heard Starbreaker stomped Superman, so I can go along with this.
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He solos the entire league. He says he was using "the power of countless red suns" but I'm unsure of it's supposed to be taken literally. Also, even then he took out multiple Superman-tiers.
InfiniteDay said:
Nothing much to say here. I accept it as not an illusion, but you don't seem to have anything wrong with this.
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I think either point of view has merit. I do lean towards it not being an illusion though considering.
InfiniteDay said:
This one is a pretty clear cut 4D=Universal, for starters, the man is the Lord of Time, suggesting a mastery over the timeline, Grant Morrison treats the fourth dimension as the dimension of time, but the first scan is just a pure "4D doesn't mean Universal feat".
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Alright. Do you have the citation for the issue? The 1st one being written by Grant Morrison shows to me it can be Universal. Being the Lord of Time also just refers to him time travelling.
Edit: Oh it's the JLA/Wildcats Crossover. Superman says he only took the blast via his new Superman Blue powers.
InfiniteDay said:
Pretty sure high-emotional turbulence doesn't mean just mad. But in defense of the defense, it was stated that there was a very small chance it could happen, not like he had the full power of a big bang, but that he had a small chance of triggering one.
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It's still a different version of Firestorm. Being mad isn't the only thing, please check out this thread.
InfiniteDay said:
I agree.
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Alright. Glad we could agree on a decent amount of points.
 
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It's not universally consistent, but Low 2-C is more common that the compromise of 4-B, which has very little feats to go off of.
 
Waka1979 said:
Also please consider how many characters this would scale to.
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Tbh I don’t think scaling every single character who’s ever fought Superman to his peak feats would be a good idea. Superman noticeably holds back 99% of the time out of moral obligation, even against characters noticeably stronger than him. It’s a central aspect of his character, even.

image0.webp
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Tbh I don’t think scaling every single character who’s ever fought Superman to his peak feats would be a good idea. Superman noticeably holds back 99% of the time out of moral obligation, even against characters noticeably stronger than him. It’s a central aspect of his character, even.

image0.webp
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True but a lot of characters have atleast 1 example of fighting what could be called a "peak supes" or atleast scale to someone who has.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
About the shattering space time continuums with Superman and Golden Age Superman, didn't that particular story show that the boundaries between universes were weakened? At least that's what I've heard
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Boundaries being weakened doesn’t devalue nearly destroying a universe. If I destroy a wall around a kingdom, me busting the kingdom doesn’t suddenly become illegitimate.
 
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