Tatsumi's possible tier change.

[Demonicjester01]

I saw that Tatsumi's highest tier is classified at High 6-B now. That seemed very unlikely so I came across the thread that classified Purge Shikoutazer at High 6-B, since most of what classified Tatsumi to such a tier is justified by his battle with Shikoutazer. However, this is where all the problems come.

First of all, Shikoutazer's attack which is classified at High 6-B by its crater feat is a clearly distinguishable Dark Bomb:





This is a very distinguishable attack, being clearly dark-colored whereas all of Shikoutazer's other lasers are light-colored, and this doesn't seem to change randomly, as this is the only time one of Shikoutazer's attacks is black.

Even more, we can compare the potency by seeing how a Low 7-B Tatsumi in his first Incursio evolution can take not one, but several of the light-lasers and not only survive, but stay in one piece and not even be blown away, something I highly doubt would happen if he took a High 6-B blast.






To further call into question the potency of these attacks, we can see how Wave can counter them with the Low 7-B Mastema.




Considering all of this, it seems extremely unlikely that these attacks are High 6-B like Shikoutazer's Dark Bomb, and this is vital to the discussion as pretty much all justification for Tatsumi being High 6-B comes from supposedly slashing through Shikoutazer's attacks.

Let's address that part. There are two times Tatsumi seems to slice through Shikoutazer's attacks. The first one is this:




This is also the one in which it appears as through Tatsumi is slicing through the High 6-B Dark Bomb, however, it is made clear this is not the case by looking at the previous two pages.





Beyond not only the fact that Shikoutazer hadn't fired anything in this scene, it is also seen here that the dark sphere was something generated by Tatsumi making Incursio evolve and power-up. Tatsumi didn't slice through any of Shikoutazer's attacks here.

The second scene in which Tatsumi arguably seems to slice through Shikoutazer's attack is here:




In this one, first of all, it is clearly a light-colored blast, not a Dark Bomb. Putting that aside, however, it would seem that Tatsumi is slicing Shikoutazer's beam in two. However, by looking at other pages, it is made clear this is also not the case.

First of all, attention to where Shikoutazer's beams are coming from:




Shikoutazer's beams are coming from those eye-like structures on its knees, shoulders and chest. However, we can also see in the previous image on Tatsumi's evolution dark sphere that Shikoutazer's weak spot, which Tatsumi explicitly aimed for and hit, is quite below the chest beam cannon. If it's not apparent enough in that image, here's another one:




Accounting for this, it is illogical to think Tatsumi sliced through Shikoutazer's chest beam. It is much more reasonable and seems to be the case that the beams at Tatsumi's sides as he charges into Shikoutazer are the beams being shot from its knees, in which case he's clearly dodging like every other time. As far as the manga is concerned, there's no time he has slashed through Shikoutazer's attacks, much less its High 6-B Dark Bomb.

With all of this, it is extremely hard to believe Tatsumi's durability is High 6-B tier, and it greatly harms his High 6-B AP. All that is left to take into account is Tatsumi piercing through Shikoutazer's torso. For this, it was clearly not nearly a feat of his own.

First of all, there's the fact that Shikoutazer's torso was first harmed by his own blasts when Wave's Mastema made them detonate at the firing spot:




And second comes when Wave and Tatsumi's combined attack further weakened Shikoutazer's torso:




Only after these two attacks took place was Tatsumi able to pierce Shikoutazer's torso, and this image once again shows that the spot Tatsumi attacked was well below Shikoutazer's chest beam:




Accounting for all of this, I find it extremely hard to believe that Tatsumi is High 6-B tier. At the very least, the justification for such a tier on his page is extremely weak and flawed. Wondering if a downgrade is required, or maybe if some additional, actually good justification for his High 6-B status is present or possible.

 

[Dark649]

It's not just 6-B it's at least High 6-B while the Purge Shikoutazer is High 6-B.

 

[Demonicjester01]

Thank you, I fixed it.

 

[Schnee_One]

TBH his justification is rather lax on why he's High 6B.

That said

1. It being a Dark Orb is irrelevant to what the potency of said teigh is capable of making, worth noting that this was just fired like any normal attack, there was no notable or even written difference between this attack and the others other then it was charged. Which admittedly, should be noted on the page that it was a charged attack.

Also this "He was able to take Low 7B blasts" is a requirement for a tier change, not a downgrade.

 

[Demonicjester01]

1. It was the only time a Dark Bomb was used, however. It seems way too unusual to use a dark-colored attack in one single occasion for that crater, whereas every single other beam was light-colored. I could understand if it was a few times that the dark-coloring was used and could attribute it to councidence, but it was one single time, so I find it extremely unlikely to think a difference wasn't intended. I also think there is a difference in the amount of damage produced. For example, the light-colored blasts only wiped off the surface of the bodies of the Revolutionary Army soldiers even when nailed directly on them, burning off their skin but not even their musculature was burned off completely, nor were their eyes. And then again, a Tatsumi that has been scaled to Low 7-B could take several of the light-colored blasts. But you're right in that there's no written special quality, so I will leave this one as a secondary concern.

I am still new to the site, so I would appreciate if you can answer. What would be the difference between a downgrade and a tier change to a lower one?

 

[Schnee_One]

1. It's actually stated by Tatsumi that he had to continuously pressure Shikoutaser in an offensive manner in order to stop it from getting stronger and Fireing stronger attacks.

There's also the fact that. While it was a charged attack, that alone doesn't dispute that it's capable of doing that with only a bit more of its power being charged

For example, Thor (Marvel Cinematic Universe) is capable of doing a 7A+ attack when charged up, but it's that very idea that he is capable of showing this match power, just to a smaller degree when he isn't, that justifies him being 7A+

"I'm still new to the site so I would appreciate if you can answer"

First off, welcome. Second, a tier change would require that form of Tatsumi to at least somewhat scale or possibly be noted as PIS which is much less likely.

There's also the fact that Tatsumi himself, while he did somewhat weaken the Shikoutaser with his normal attacks on the weak spot. Wasn't capable of doing any form of meaningful damage otherwise, justifying yet again why him, a Low 7B, was incapable of scratching it otherwise.

On that note, while he could barely damage the slightly weakened armor, he failed to actually break the outer shell, which is why his new form would literally have to scale to it in order to break the entire center mass because of it didn't, it's why he couldn't break the armor outside of it.

 

[Demonicjester01]

"There's also the fact that. While it was a charged attack, that alone doesn't dispute that it's capable of doing that with only a bit more of its power being charged

For example, Thor (Marvel Cinematic Universe) is capable of doing a 7A+ attack when charged up, but it's that very idea that he is capable of showing this match power, just to a smaller degree when he isn't, that justifies him being 7A+"

I see what you mean, but I think this has more to do with Shikoutazer, whereas I'm arguing on Tatsumi's tier since it seems too high without strong justification. While Shikoutazer's feats are very inconsistent, I do accept his High 6-B stats due to the crater calcs.

My issue is primarily that the justification that was used for Tatsumi was either weak or erroneous. The scaling to Shikoutazer due to having to break its torso seems much more reasonable. But then again, in physics isn't there exponentially more pressure when higher force is applied to a smaller area of effect? That could be relevant as well.

However, there's also to note that even more inconsistencies are present with Low 7-B Tatsumi punching Purge Shikoutazer, which noticeably also pushed it back (its head was turned from the punch's force, and Tatsumi was explicitly described as an annoyance then), even if not nearly as much as the punch dealt to base Shikoutazer. Not to count the Low 7-B Wave greatly pushed back Purge Shikoutazer upon his arrival. This points at a rather large inconsistency between the AP and the Durability of Purge Shikoutazer, that even if illogical, is very apparently present, as Low 7-B combatants were able to fight it. Having durability that Low 7-B guys can damage, and the inability to completely erase one of them even with several attacks seems to indicate the High 6-B feat is an extreme outlier for dramatic effect or a drawing error, which wouldn't surprise me considering even Shikoutazer's very size is extremely inconsistent across pages.

And there's also to note, again, that Shikoutazer's own attacks dealt an unidentified amount of damage to its armor when Wave used Mastema to detonate them at the firing spot, so it wasn't just the combined attack and Tatsumi's charge. There seems too much inconsistency around Tatsumi's current tier by putting all this together.

P.S: I kept re-reading and also noticed Tyrant Tatsumi, even if temporarily, got his movements restricted and was held to the ground by Revolutionary Army fodder. I don't know what to think of that.

 

[Schnee_One]

If the Shikoutaser is capable of outputting that form of power, then Tatsumi by that very logic would have to scale in order to take it down, again with my analogy Hulk also scales to Thor despite being less capable of outputting that kind of power.

Tatsumi didn't force its head back, it was the Emperor forming a defensive position so Tatsumi doesn't target its weak spot, plus, Emperor himself is highly inexperienced in combat and thus shows that when his arrogance forces him to make decisions such as playing too safe and playing Keepaway.

An inconsistency with the fight doesn't downplay the feat unless it's absolutely inscessant and feats contradict previous ones, High 6B doesn't do that.

From the beginning we see how Low 7B+ is a complete Joke for our main antagonist. And thus it's consistent that as the characters get much stronger as time goes on that a much higher end feat would have them scale

The outlier is them being able to (EXTREMELY slightly Might I add) damage the front end of the weakspot, and not the literal entire feat

It's not perfectly consistent, but it doesn't have to be.

Also, the Shikoutasers Blast completely KOd Tatsumi and he had to evolve in order to fight it, and IIRC Wave never got hit.

Lastly "The inability to completely erase one of them with several attacks"

Unless said character is able to constantly survive serious strikes, minor inconsistency alone doesn't erase the feat unless there's truely contradicteve information to almost everything related to it.

Kyoko Sakura isn't 7C because she didn't vaporize Sayaka with literally every attack

Iron Man (Marvel Comics) and Spider-Man (Marvel Comics) aren't 8A because Captian America can slightly damage them with his shield (Even defeating each in the Civil War comic)

A true example of an outlier is Genos's 7B feat, where he pulls a 7B feat by pulverizing a mountain

But. Much stronger characters going all out produce much weaker feats and people stronger then him freak out over much smaller feats

Tatsumi and Wave damaging the Shikoutaser is the outlier, not the feat itself.

And this makes even more sense when other characters are considered to be stronger then anything Shikoutaser can do, such as Esdeath

There is consistency with the feat for the overall scaling of the God tiers, the minor inconsistency of the Low 7Bs damaging it by hitting the weak spot alone doesn't have enough merit to contradict the feat or the scaling.

I'm currently busy and have some stuff I want to do, I will appoint some more people to this thread to have them answer any other points, take care.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Not this again....

This was already discussed and debunked to death and back. Shikoutazer's durability scales to the dark bomb via Newton's Third Law.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Also the dark bomb was a casual attack.

It would be absolutely ridiculous to assume that Shikoutazer's other attacks that he fired off with more effort would not be on the level of the dark bomb. (He used dark attack with no effort, and was going all out against 4'th form Tatsumi)

 

[Demonicjester01]

"It would be absolutely ridiculous to assume that Shikoutazer's other attacks that he fired off with more effort would not be on the level of the dark bomb. (He used dark attack with no effort, and was going all out against Tatsumi)" If that was the case then how did Low 7-B Tatsumi take not one, but several blasts when he was protecting civilians? If they were on the level of the dark bomb he should have been completely blown to dust.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

That is an outlier on Tatsumi's part. Wave and Tatsumi were getting absolutely destroyed by Shikoutazer. The only thing they managed to do was slightly crack a spot on the chest.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

You're also neglecting the fact that this wasn't 1'st form Tatsumi. This was his third form that was fighting Shikoutazer. His second form was practically one-shotted when the mecha went into purge mode.

 

[Demonicjester01]

Wave easily countered several of Shikoutazer's blasts with the Low 7-B Mastema too. If anything, the dark bomb's damage level seems much more of an outlier, considering it has the less repetitions out of the other feats. One High 6-B feat, while all the other feats Shikoutazer has scale to the Low 7-B opponents. Also, the Tatsumi that took the blasts was second form Tatsumi. The page is right up there. Third and fourth form Tatsumi didn't take any of Shikoutazer's attacks.

The crack was caused not only by the combined attack, but also by Wave making Shikoutazer's own attacks detonate at their firing spot.

 

[Schnee_One]

<Easily countered

The dude was stunned and severely hurt by a single strike and was so wounded he had to retreat

That's not easily, that's "This was ludicrously hard"

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Mastema's core ability is attack reflection. Whitch often tends to ignore AP differences. Also you are still constantly forgetting that Third form Tatsu and Double Teigu Wave are powered up forms that exclusively fought Purge mode, and nobody else. It would make sense they could take attacks and fight Shikoutazer. Albeit barely.

 

[Demonicjester01]

The attack reflection is not done by the feather shots, but by the wings themselves. When Run used the attack reflection it was visibly different from what Wave did, and Wave didn't reflect the attacks, he shot them and made them explode in midair with direct clashes from his feather shots. Double Teigu Wave didn't fight Purge Mode only, he fought and was equal with second form Tatsumi during his first battle.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

. Double Teigu Wave didn't fight Purge Mode only, he fought and was equal with second form Tatsumi during his first battle.

Don't remember that. Scans or it didn't happen.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Even so, the only other person Second Form Tatsumi fought was base Esdeath. Who is already vastly above Low 7-B characters anyways.

 

[Demonicjester01]

Base Esdeath fought him without difficulty, however. He didn't perform any better than the Low 7-B Akame did back during the rescue mission in which he got his second form.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Exactly. Base Esdeath and Double Teigu wave are the only ones who fought Second Form Tatsumi.


What point are you trying to make exactly? I'm not seeing anything warranting any gigantic downgrades. Though maybe some slight scaling changes.

 

[Demonicjester01]

And Double Teigu Wave is classed at Low 7-B. With scaling second form Tatsumi to that, it is impossible that Shikoutazer's blasts are anything near High 6-B or otherwise they would have completely obliterated Tatsumi, and yet he was actually somewhat holding on until Shikoutazer pierced him with a sword.

The tiering itself is way too ****** even in the source material itself, it's hugely inconsistent both in AP feats and also in the AP to Durability relation. At this point, I seriously don't know how it can be actually modified in a way that makes any sense. The point I was trying to make was that the evidence for rating Tatsumi at High 6-B is extremely weak, and a lot of justification for it is erroneous. But even downgrading it as I thought would be more reasonable has its large set of problems.

However, at this point, there is one thing that is hugely incorrect. And that is the justification used for Tatsumi's High 6-B status in his page. It has a lot of mentions about Tatsumi being unfazed by Shikoutazer's attacks or slicing through them which, as I pointed out in the OP, is completely erroneous.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Or i don't know? Maybe Second Form Tats and Wave might just barely scale to Purge Mode?

After all they are new forms that scale to practically nobody else.

Low 7-B is incorrect, but so is High 6-B it might seem

The feat itself sits at 121 terratons. So backscaling to 6-B might make more sense.

I'm out of shape when it comes to debating. I'll have to seriously re-visit this tomorow.

 

[Schnee_One]

I thought it was 150 Terratons?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Oh yeah, my bad. 154 teratons.

 

[Demonicjester01]

What were the feats that scaled Tatsumi and Wave to Low 7-B? Or rather, pretty much the rest of the verse seems to hover around that, but I am not aware of the feats used.

 

[Schnee_One]

Tatsumi and Wave are baseline Low 7B in their previous keys for being>>>>>>>>>>>867 Kilotons

Esdeath also has a supporting Low 7B+ feat afterwards

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Did you guys resolve this or change the topic from what was in the OP?


From what I can see, OP is making the mistake in thinking that Shikouteizer's Supreme Beam and Energy Ball are as weak as his missile volley.

Also Double Teigu Wave was around the level of Second Stage Tatsumi, but then in the final arc Double Teigue Wave is actually stronger than an even stronger Second Stage Tatsumi (DT Wave knocked back Purge Mode Shikouteizer when PM Shikou was no-selling hits from Second Stage Tatsumi at this point). I'd go as far to say that PM Shikou fight DT Wave is about on par with Third Stage Tatsumi. But I don't know if we have an actual solid tier for that key for Tatsumi.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I dunno about weaker when Tatsumi's mode of attack consists of him jumping at the giant, then running away, while Wave has 3-dimensional maneuverability, also them feather things that explode.

 

[Dark649]

Agree with IMade, but i don't think backward scaling them is a good idea.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

OR maybe Wave and Tats could have Tier 6 durability in these forms?

 

[Dark649]

I do not think they are Stone Walls.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Based on what?

 

[Dark649]

I'm referring to Third Form Tatsumi and DT Wave.

 

[Demonicjester01]

@IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 I don't see any indication that the final beam attack is any stronger than the normal blasts Shikoutazer used earlier. But whether the final beam is stronger is irrelevant, since Shikoutazer didn't hit anyone with it, as I showed in the OP.

On the "energy ball" that you seem to be using to refer to the dark bomb, I never said it was as weak as the normal attacks. If anything, I said the opposite, making a case for why the other attacks can't be taken to have the same potency as it.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 I don't see any indication that the final beam attack is any stronger than the normal blasts Shikoutazer used earlier. But whether the final beam is stronger is irrelevant, since Shikoutazer didn't hit anyone with it, as I showed in the OP.

The fact that the missile volley are simply small missiles that do a smaller explosion while the Supreme Beam and Energy Ball are entirely massive AoE blast. They are quite clearly different in strength.

The bottom two panels are of Tatsumi going through something and energy coming off the sides of him, I can't see that as anything except him going through the Supreme Laser, which makes sense since Tatsumi would have to pass through one in order to get close to the weak spot.

On the "energy ball" that you seem to be using to refer to the dark bomb, I never said it was as weak as the normal attacks. If anything, I said the opposite, making a case for why the other attacks can't be taken to have the same potency as it.
Shikouteizer's ultimate attack is the Supreme Beam, the Energy Ball seems to be a mid-attack and the missile volley is the weakest.

 

[Demonicjester01]

The supposed "energy coming off the sides of him" is drawn in exactly the same way as the aftershock of Neuntote's blades in the panel just above that, as well as the aftershock from Tatsumi's movements when he was dodging the attacks in 2nd form. Not only that, but the panel also shows Tatsumi explicitly dodging the beams, he's going in the middle with the beams quite aways from him. There's no reason to think it's Shikoutazer's beam, it is the aftershock from Neuntote and the charge's movement.

And as I showed above, the weak spot of Shikoutazer is well below the chest beam, and also away from any of the other beam firing spots. Tatsumi doesn't have to go through any beam in order to get to the weak spot. If you need more proof of it even though I showed it in the OP, here it is:




Here you can see that the weak spot is well below the eye-like structure on Shikoutazer's chest, and this eye-like structure is what shoots the beam as seen here:




Tatsumi didn't have to go through any beams in order to reach the weak spot. In fact, it would be counterproductive to do so, as they are not even nearby the weak spot considering Shikoutazer's size. On another note, what basis are you using to say the final beam is stronger than the dark bomb?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

@IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 I don't see any indication that the final beam attack is any stronger than the normal blasts Shikoutazer used earlier. But whether the final beam is stronger is irrelevant, since Shikoutazer didn't hit anyone with it, as I showed in the OP.

The fact that the missile volley are simply small missiles that do a smaller explosion while the Supreme Beam and Energy Ball are entirely massive AoE blast. They are quite clearly different in strength.

The bottom two panels are of Tatsumi going through something and energy coming off the sides of him, I can't see that as anything except him going through the Supreme Laser, which makes sense since Tatsumi would have to pass through one in order to get close to the weak spot.


On the "energy ball" that you seem to be using to refer to the dark bomb, I never said it was as weak as the normal attacks. If anything, I said the opposite, making a case for why the other attacks can't be taken to have the same potency as it.

Shikouteizer's ultimate attack is the Supreme Beam, the Energy Ball seems to be a mid-attack and the missile volley is the weakest.

And on the bottom of that scan we literally see him slicing through a beam of energy.

 

[Demonicjester01]

No, we don't. If you had read the very first thing I replied to then you would know that's not the case, and there's no reason to think he's doing so. Just read the explanation.

You know what is clearly seen? Him avoiding the beams. With that, you are basically saying that Tatsumi went out of his way to unnecessarily charge into a beam, and not even with evidence for it.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

You're heavily mistaken.

As you can see in the red boxes, we see Tatsumi's smoke trails. In the blue boxes we see that the trails literally come directly off of Neuntote.

And in the bottom right panel, we do see the smoke trail coming directly off of Neuntote, which means the other energy swirling around Tatsumi is what he is powering through. Also the fact that there is a wall of energy in front of Tatsumi when he hasn't even made contact with Shikouteizer yet, he makes contact the next page. Plus, Tatsumi has at most 4 small trails of smoke at a time given the 4 prongs of Neunotote. Then the bottom left panel has a different shade over Tatsumi as we're viewing him through a filter.


As for the Supreme Beam and Energy Ball. If the Supreme Beam was weaker then why would the Emperor waste time on preparing to launch all beams on Tatsumi instead of using the quick-fire Energy Ball? Seriously, Tatsumi was just floating in air losing consciousness as he was evolving to Stage 4, yet the Emperor chose to charge and prepare all his canons instead of using the massive AoE Energy Ball. The only conclusion is that the Supreme Canon is a more powerful attack that would insure his victory.