Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Conceptual Manipulation

[OpMasada]

So, it's type 3? Did we confirm that?

 

[Elizhaa]

Wait, why would dialgia die as Dialga destroyed space-time before as looks unaffected by it, the numerous times it destroyed it, Kaltias? and the proven otherwise involved on what are what the concept need to be shown affected by what they embodies if this is Dialga's case then this is not the spirit cases.

 

[Elizhaa]

So, it's type 3? Did we confirm that?

Honestly, I don't think type 2 was debunked as Type 3 required assumptions as I and other explain Ed above

 

[Elizhaa]

There is still more supporters response to wait as I can contacted them earlier.

 

[Kaltias]

Dialga doesn't die to Low 2-C destruction because he is an embodiment of time on a 2-B scale.

And the spirits don't need to show being affected, they need to show the opposite

 

[Elizhaa]

I mean it wasn't affected by the Space-time destruction that it cause in battle.

The affected part is the main criteria for Type 3, I don't think we can ingnore cases with no evidences for it and say that they qualify.

What about the logical case that I made about the great spirits and NeoSuperior made about the world destruction?

 

[Elizhaa]

Also, about the Time Spirit, spiritual beings with can moved in stop time, and with Time control resists Time Manipulation. THERE also Type 1 Acausality evidences for Type 1 since she can Time travel and remember her memories.

I see less case for the Time Spirit being affected by it's concepts here

 

[The_Causality]

So The death of Spirit's don't bring the end of the world? so what happened when they were erased? your answer could be determinent about the type.

According to the current quote, they have a Type 3 Concept, Type 2 need more requierment

Nope, how they came into existence with their concept is the point of it and about the energy thing, the quote just mean that when the Spirits of Energy is Born, Energy has been brough into existence

@Elizaa Type 1 is a pure No and you don't understand Kalt's point, According to You, Space is Type 2 because when Nil erased a part of Space (which is her concept) she wasn't affected and no, being affected never was the main criteria of Type 3.

 

[Elizhaa]

I dislike forgetting words; Type 1 was about Acausality

 

[Elizhaa]

There is also a quote about characters who used outside the law of worldd like Rimuru and others which could be evidence for Acausality Type 4. It was accepted as resistance to Law Manipulation.

 

[The_Causality]

There is also a quote about characters who used outside the law of worldd like Rimuru and others which could be evidence for Acausality Type 4. It was accepted as resistance to Law Manipulation.

Out of Topic but no again, being "outside of the law of the world" isn't even Acausality, it's a big assumption. why you even talk about that here?

About your comment Below, it's the Total Destruction of what they represent, not a part

 

[Elizhaa]

To prove an Abstract Entities is bounded to what they represented, it should proven they ar affected by the destruction of what they represent as well.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"If one thinks it is Type 3, honestly, I think we should assume the default assumption for concept manipulation is type 2 unless if these conditions are valid."

Other way around. You need to prove that the concept is type 2 by showing that it is independent of the objects it represents.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am not sure what you mean, the causality, I said could and once I found more supporting in context that I would to make a CRT.

Context outside of the law of the world - Rimuru always died when Chloe time travel change the past never succeeding and only when he got a ultimate Skills, he survives and describe as been outside of the laws of the world like with Ultimate Skills in the verse.

There is more, but there is no point of derailing

Also, Type 4 Acausality can happen Acausality (Type 4. Transcended the laws of the world)

Celestial Pegasus, in some context, Type 4 Acausality can be used to prove a Concepts is Type 2 so it would be relevant.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Rimuru being outside the law of the world has nothing to do with what's being discussed here.

Also the default assumption shouldn't be type 2, as it's far more potent than 3. That's just going for the highest interpretation, and not how we operate on this site. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The majority here agree that you need to prove it's type 2, not the other way around.

 

[The_Causality]

@CP Well, somethings interest me about the Great Spirits, when they Die, what is happening?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

What's posted in the op is all we have, they are born the same time as their concepts, and eventually a new spirit is born that erases everything, that's all we have.

 

[Elizhaa]

"If one thinks it is Type 3, honestly, I think we should assume the default assumption for concept manipulation is type 2 unless if these conditions are valid."
Other way around. You need to prove that the concept is type 2 by showing that it is independent of the objects it represents.

I linked conditions, what I have said are not there, I had a colon in the Op. So, I think I am quoted out context.

I and NeoSuperior have stated logical arguments why Type 3 looks incorrect, from the world; no one really debunks these.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Link conditions? What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Elizhaa]

Link conditions? What is that supposed to mean?

Corrected number 1:

honestly, I think we should assume the default assumption for concept manipulation is type 2 unless if these conditions are valid: These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept.

I could have added this text to further make my point, but I didn't want repetition in the OP:

• These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality.

 

[The_Causality]

What's posted in the op is all we have, they are born the same time as their concepts, and eventually a new spirit is born that erases everything, that's all we have.

But the erasure of them erase the concepts or something?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea, nothing is left, the new spirit erases them and everything else.

When Rimuru woke up at the end of spacetime after the universe was destroyed by the new spirit, only complete nothingness was left.

 

[The_Causality]

Well, Thanks CP, it's indeed Type 3 then.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Elizhaa Which is wrong as you are simply going with the highest possible interpretation, which leads to wank and NLF.

Prove that the concept is type 2. Either show that the concept is independent of the objects it represents by showing it existed before the objects, will continue to exist after the destruction of said objects, or you can show that the concept is transcendent of the reality it governs (ex. the Chaos Force in Archie Sonic).

 

[Elizhaa]

ShadowWarrior1999, I going of the information from the series and definitions, I am not sure how it is no limit fallacy of what I believe is based on conditions. To be fair, I was referring to the spirits when I made the claim better fix.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

About the spirits, going by what Celestial said it's safe to say it's only type 3.

 

[Ywlrvl]

It seems like Type 3 going by the quote.

A large majority here seems to have already listed the reasons why, so I'll just add this comment as a vote towards Type 3.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The major distinction for Type 2 is being capable of existing without the objects of the concept. For example, the concept of space would exist on its own before and after space itself exists. The object of space does not determine the concept of space in any manner if it is a Type 2 concept, with space's existence being irrelevant to the concept's existence.

For Type 3, the concept cannot exist without its object, and that is almost certainly what these concepts are. The real big hint here is " Who came to exist at the same moment as the world." This indicates that the concepts did not exist prior to their objects, and we have no evidence that they are capable of existing without such objects. Therefore, they are Type 3.

Also the default assumption is Type 3, as Type 4 is really specific and not commonly used while Type 2-1 are above Type 3 and need to be proven.

 

[GLHF22]

Holy crap i sleeping for the entire day. Okay i don't know much about Conceptual manipulation but what is Great Holy Spirit ? Its the source power of everything in the world and born Before all concepts exist in fact it is was the source of all concepts but i think it Will not Die if concepts of darkness dead.

 

[Elizhaa]

Holy crap i sleeping for the entire day.
Okay i don't know much about Conceptual manipulation but what is Great Holy Spirit ? Its the source power of everything in the world and born Before all concepts exist in fact it is was the source of all concepts but i think it Will not Die if concepts of darkness dead.

It basically takes a reading of the Conceptual Manipulation page to understand it.

 

[Elizhaa]

The major distinction for Type 2 is being capable of existing without the objects of the concept. For example, the concept of space would exist on its own before and after space itself exists. The object of space does not determine the concept of space in any manner if it is a Type 2 concept, with space's existence being irrelevant to the concept's existence.

For Type 3, the concept cannot exist without its object, and that is almost certainly what these concepts are. The real big hint here is " Who came to exist at the same moment as the world." This indicates that the concepts did not exist prior to their objects, and we have no evidence that they are capable of existing without such objects. Therefore, they are Type 3.

Also the default assumption is Type 3, as Type 4 is really specific and not commonly used while Type 2-1 are above Type 3 and need to be proven.

So, basically, like Celestial said: to be type 2 from what i have heard would require them to be born before or after their concepts.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Elizhaa

Correct. An example of a Type 2 would be Kindred, as they will remain even after death is no longer present and there is nothing else that can die.

 

[Elizhaa]

Assaltwaffle, I always wondered if characters like the spirits, had Acausality (Type 4 or 5) would that ever be enough that proved Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) as I believe their concepts would mostly transcendent of reality from Type 2?

 

[RM97]

Being acausal type 4 and 5 has nothing to do with type 2 concept manip imo.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yeah, acausality has nothing to do with concept types.

 

[NeoSuperior]

How does the creation of the Great Spirit show them to be dependent on their manifestations? It doesn't.

The birth of the Great Spirits shows that the manifestations of the concept are reliant on the concept to exist (additionally the manifestations gain Immortality type 4+8 hybrid). However it does NOT indicate the opposite, i.e. it does not in any way suggest that the concept gets in any way influenced by changes of the manifestations.

Rimuru also absorbed an angel and "became it", but the story never mentioned that Rimuru gained any sort of influence over the Spirit of Light due to it. It would seem odd if Ciel didn't mention that if he really could exert some, even if extremely miniscule influence on a concept like that. But I guess that's not concrete enough as proof.

So it really comes down to the "Eraser Spirit", I guess, even though that line of reasoning doesn't seem to be very effective based on the responses so far.

Assaltwaffle, I always wondered if characters like the spirits, had Acausality (Type 4 or 5) would that ever be enough that proved Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) as I believe their concepts would mostly transcendent of reality from Type 2?

There was this: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2550655 Heck you made that thread yourself, though it didn't seem to have really reached a conclusion.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

As we have been saying over and over, the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise.

Angels =/= great spirit, angels and demons are like spirits but aren't spirits, and certainly they aren't great spirits.

Anyway the majority here think it's type 3 concept manipulation.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@NeoSuperior Just because it doesn't indicate otherwise doesn't mean that it indicates that the concept is type 2. You have to prove that it is.

 

[NeoSuperior]

As we have been saying over and over, the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise.

Angels =/= great spirit, angels and demons are like spirits but aren't spirits, and certainly they aren't great spirits.

Anyway the majority here think it's type 3 concept manipulation.

Angels are dependents on the Spirit of Light though, since their reincarnation immortality is bound to its existence. So they are manifestations (not to be confused with "embodiments" which only refer to the Great Spirits themselves) of the "Light" concept, so if the the Great Spirits are type 3 concepts, then all light and light users should have miniscule influence on the Great Spirit of Light itself, if I understood it correctly, that's why I said that "becoming" someone who gains immortality from it, like Angels, would theoretically give Rimuru a tiny amount of influence over the Great Spirit of Light if it's concept type 3, though if I say "influence" it's the equivalent of "less than the feeling an itch on the shoulder" for the Great Spirit. But never mind that. I already said myself that this line of reasoning doesn't seem to get anywhere and I probably shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. Let's leave it at that.

@NeoSuperior Just because it doesn't indicate otherwise doesn't mean that it indicates that the concept is type 2. You have to prove that it is.

Yes, but earlier it seemed that the birth was used as an argument that the concept gets influenced by it's manifestations, which I debunked, which brings us back to the starting line of "there is no definite proof either way so it defaults to type 3" at least in regards to the birth.

For the "Eraser Spirit" I just want to mention that the only counter-argument I heard so far is that just the mere possibility that it migth have been created to erase the Great Spirits and everything else alongside it for no particular reason exists and it's therefore invalid. But I am fairly sure that when people argue in favor of some change, this sort of "X did it on a whim" or "X had no particular reason to do so, but did it anyway", would usually not be accepted in any other case (and shouldn't get any exception just for the debunking party either), unless it's specifically considered "in-character" and from what we know about Veldanava, nothing suggests that he does such pointless things. So if you refute me on this, please don't rely on this sort of reasoning.

 

[Sheska444]

bump