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Which scan are yall talking about? I will get it translated
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Tensura Speed rework/downgrade (low and possibly mid tiers)
- Thread starter Dark_Soul20189
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Btw, we have an accepted calc for Shizue dodging feat which coincidentally falls into Supersonic
vsbattles.fandom.com
Shizu dodged Black Lightning
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Me and Code actually discussed this feat before. The overall conclusion I came to was that both manga and anime changed the working of Black lightning in that scene. The more accurate depiction is present both in LN and in anime: the test where he crushed a rock in the middle of a lake. In that scene, in LN he was talking about an increase in range at which he can hit enemies which doesn't make sense if it was a top-down attack. The other supporting argument is the Sky Dragon's lightning which Rimuru stared to intercept after it firedBtw, we have an accepted calc for Shizue dodging feat which coincidentally falls into Supersonic
Shizu dodged Black Lightning
While the general "lightning speed" is indeed often a metaphor, "near lightning speed" is a much more specific statement and significantly less used as a metaphor. Moreover, Fuse rarely makes use of flowery language like that, he usually does the opposite: states them to be faster than some kind of a low end.
The MHS is further supported by several statements in the OP itself, such as Rimuru's natural perception and Hakurou outspeeding the enhanced version
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In volume 1 its mentioned to be "crashing down".
The increase of range can still makes sense because it was talking about the heat radius of the lightning strike, or the fact that in the manga the lightning is visually shown to be huge.
Its still a metaphor.
Demon Lord Benimaru was struggling against a MHS attack so it isnt consistent. Also why would that be MHS?
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Which can also be used to describe horizontal movement
He already had Black Flames with an already bigger range of expansion
Arguments?
Mind providing the feat
Because Mach 1 perception amped by a 1000
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I guess you do have a point there. It can mean both.
Thats not what we're arguing about tho.
Because its simply is a figurative way to describe how fast something is. An extra "near" doesn't make it to be literal just because its "more specific". Also, looking at the context he was talking about their usage in Spatial Motion, aka Teleportation so its doesn't really count as a speed feat.
Right, my bad.
He clearly could perceive Hakurou final attack in slow motion, just that his body arent fast enough to respond to that. And considering that he was using 300x perception amp against Hakurou at the start of their fight, it would just be a 1000/300 = 3.34x difference anyway.
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But why would he note an improvement in range of he already had a bigger AoE attack?
More specific means less frequently used as a metaphor. That means that we need to consider context more. The context is both that Ranga uses lightning abilities and that Fuse rarely makes use of such metaphors
In the very same scan it says that they can run at half that speed normally
Yeah, except the comparison in the very scan is with Velgrynd's attacks. Which are nearing lightspeed. We've already discussed Fuse's frivolous use of speed of sound and how it's unreliable to treat it as a literal anti-feats to higher speeds
That's Kyoya, not Rimuru.....
And it's talking about Kyoya being frozen compared to the attack...
CodeCCLL
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How can "crashing down" be used to describe horizontal movement? I think this clearly proves that the manga and anime versions are accurate.
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"Came crashing down the road", "Crashing down the river". This idiom can indeed be used to describe horizontal movement especially fast one
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I reread volume 1 to check again. Rimuru got and tested Black Lightning first before he gained Black Flames.
Its barely "more specific". Fuse almost always uses metaphors all the time, and even if he didn't you'd still need to prove this one actually isnt. We can argue semantics all day but it would be better to prove it with actual/supporting feats.
It was for that Star Wolves, not Souei or Ranga. If anything it proved that it was talking about proficiency in using their skill.
... Fuse gotta be trolling atp. You're right for this one.
Are we not talking about Kyoya? Its also said that Hakurou's blade can be seen moving slowly towards his necks, so while his 1000 amp can perceive it, his body is too slow to react.
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That gif or whatever doesn't work for meOkay I searched again and this should basically proves that it goes up-down.
It was potrayed the same in the anime.
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Welp, this is concerning to say the least....
So what now? Should I fully nuke the speed rating and rework the speed more, or keep it?
So what now? Should I fully nuke the speed rating and rework the speed more, or keep it?
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I haven't participated in this verse for 1-2 years now, but I guess I'll chime in on this thread.
I originally planned on reworking the speed ratings of the verse, mostly due to what is already presented in the OP. But that never came into fruition due to external reasons and the simple fact that I lost interest in Slime for various reasons. Also because the verse's speed can simply be very inconsistent which shelved the project until I lost interest.
There are feats with Benimaru and Carrion/Karion/Callion/whatever the *****'s name was, and those were explicitly MHS at most IIRC. In general, we don't really get a lot of relativistic speed feats that isn't somehow related to Disintegration within the first 6 volume, just mentioning that speed caps for higher tiers makes the MHS rating for Shizue-tier characters unlikely (the Empire arc just introduced more low-level speed feats tbh).
I originally intended to scrap the MHS ratings and then work from there, whether Shizue would be supersonic or if there would be calcs that would show a more definitive number. I still think this is the case.
I originally planned on reworking the speed ratings of the verse, mostly due to what is already presented in the OP. But that never came into fruition due to external reasons and the simple fact that I lost interest in Slime for various reasons. Also because the verse's speed can simply be very inconsistent which shelved the project until I lost interest.
There are feats with Benimaru and Carrion/Karion/Callion/whatever the *****'s name was, and those were explicitly MHS at most IIRC. In general, we don't really get a lot of relativistic speed feats that isn't somehow related to Disintegration within the first 6 volume, just mentioning that speed caps for higher tiers makes the MHS rating for Shizue-tier characters unlikely (the Empire arc just introduced more low-level speed feats tbh).
I originally intended to scrap the MHS ratings and then work from there, whether Shizue would be supersonic or if there would be calcs that would show a more definitive number. I still think this is the case.
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Honestly, I was skeptical of the MHS rating when making this thread, and now I am almost certain it is wrong, or should be limited to "shadow motion."
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I'd say this thread already have enough feats to rework the speed scaling for V1-5.
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Yeah, I am just letting all the other scalers share their thoughts, and possibly bring more feats. (I will call the staff and start working on a new speed rating for all affected, 2 weeks after this was created)
Edit - I am also unsure what to do with Shizue's speed feat/scaling now...
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YesMy bad. Does this one works?
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Its a nice surprise to see you here again, thought you'd never appear again.
As I have discussed long ago, I share the same stance.
Although for Benimaru's antifeat someone earlier pointed out that Carrion's attack was compared to Velgyrnd's relavistic attack despite being "several hundreds times of speed of sound". But regardless its more consistent for Supersonic imo.
CodeCCLL
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I have average knowledge, but I believe I am good at analyzing, using the information I do have.
Note: I'm very busy right now.
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So I've went through Volumes 1-17 of the LN, since @Dark_Soul20189 seems to have forgotten that there are characters later on that still scale to people from first volumes (especially to Rimuru). After doing that, I'm still convinced that MHS is the correct rating.
There are basically 3 direct feats we have as well as 2 possible uses of multipliers
1) Ranga's speed feat that we've already mentioned here.
I've went through all volumes mentioned and came to a conclusion that Fuse does not use "lightning speed" as a metaphor regarding actual speed feats. The only times he has ever used lightning as a metaphor was in the later half of the novel when describing how fast people were checking documents or general progress of a task. Those obviously are unrelated to describing actual speed and only appear in volumes 10-11. This, coupled with Ranga having actual lightning abilities, leads me to believe that it is not a metaphor.
2) Rimuru and the Sky Dragon
In Volume 4 Chapter 6 of the LN is the Sky Dragon encounter. In it, there's a moment when Mjormille is about to be blasted by lightning, the lightning was already fired but Rimuru appeared before them before that happened. "Came quicker than the lightning" is the description for this. If you want visual confirmation, look at the later half of Episode 21 of anime. Considering that Rimuru was coming from behind the dragon and that the bolts were already fired, he quite literally outsped the lightning, so an obvious MHS
3) Beretta and Shion dodging lightning from Viola
This feat comes from Volume 6 and is about Shion and Beretta. And while it may be argued that they evolved, they should still be at most equal to pre-Vol 6 Rimuru. Moreover we don't have any statements of a speed upgrade from The Harvest Festival (which is reflected in our scaling), so I say we can use this.
So the feat is rather literal. Viola spams a wide variety of different elemental spells, including lightning, and Beretta and Shion were dodging all of this, waiting for a moment to strike. The field where this was happening wasn't really wide, so that's also a close distance. Again, lightning dodging feats, but now more concrete, pretty much a MHS rating. Again, you can watch this in the anime in the corresponding Walpurgis episode
Now I'll describe the multiplier scales we can use
1) Scaling from below. The OP already established that Rimuru can easily see things that are Mach 1, so that's his regular perception speed. Thought Acceleration enhances it x1000, so Mach 1000. And Hakurou was pretty much blitzing him, that even perception couldn't really catch up, as OP already establishes himself. Do I need to say more?
2) Scaling from above. We have an accepted Relativistic perception calc for TDL Rimuru. His perception enhancement is x1,000,000 so a 1000 times greater. If we divide his perception speed there by 1000, we'll get MHS perception and we again get to the previous point
Supporting arguments
Arguments that can't really be said to be a definite confirmation, but support the rating as more consistent
Starwolves can use their horns to serve as a conductor for Black Lightning, meaning that they can use non-sky lightning in their fights and since they aren't considered some kind of a super-blitz species, those can be dodged by more powerful opponents in fights
In Volume 13 Untransformed Gabil (again, ≤Rimuru) and his squad, during the battle with Imperial Airships were met with a huge barrage of magical attacks, including lightning. They were described as "going down one by one" due to size and quantity of spells, which implies that they weren't just simply tagged by the lightning and held on, which wouldn't be the case with Supersonic vs MHS
In Volume 15 Gadra fights an opponent that is stated to be below Saare. In the fight he uses a scientifically generated lightning and the only thing that gets to the opponent isn't the attack speed, but the fact that it was created without any magic
In the same Volume, Frey goes against a harpy opponent that uses a lot of lightning attacks. From Frey's own statements later, we learn that all of these were Harpies' intristic magic. Harpies are known as masters of high-speed aerial combat, which means they regularly fight in the sky, which again means they have enough speed to dodge the lightning they fire against eachother to some extent
All of this, coupled with the fact that I've yet to see any actual anti-feats for MHS makes me believe that it is indeed the correct rating
There are basically 3 direct feats we have as well as 2 possible uses of multipliers
1) Ranga's speed feat that we've already mentioned here.
I've went through all volumes mentioned and came to a conclusion that Fuse does not use "lightning speed" as a metaphor regarding actual speed feats. The only times he has ever used lightning as a metaphor was in the later half of the novel when describing how fast people were checking documents or general progress of a task. Those obviously are unrelated to describing actual speed and only appear in volumes 10-11. This, coupled with Ranga having actual lightning abilities, leads me to believe that it is not a metaphor.
2) Rimuru and the Sky Dragon
In Volume 4 Chapter 6 of the LN is the Sky Dragon encounter. In it, there's a moment when Mjormille is about to be blasted by lightning, the lightning was already fired but Rimuru appeared before them before that happened. "Came quicker than the lightning" is the description for this. If you want visual confirmation, look at the later half of Episode 21 of anime. Considering that Rimuru was coming from behind the dragon and that the bolts were already fired, he quite literally outsped the lightning, so an obvious MHS
3) Beretta and Shion dodging lightning from Viola
This feat comes from Volume 6 and is about Shion and Beretta. And while it may be argued that they evolved, they should still be at most equal to pre-Vol 6 Rimuru. Moreover we don't have any statements of a speed upgrade from The Harvest Festival (which is reflected in our scaling), so I say we can use this.
So the feat is rather literal. Viola spams a wide variety of different elemental spells, including lightning, and Beretta and Shion were dodging all of this, waiting for a moment to strike. The field where this was happening wasn't really wide, so that's also a close distance. Again, lightning dodging feats, but now more concrete, pretty much a MHS rating. Again, you can watch this in the anime in the corresponding Walpurgis episode
Now I'll describe the multiplier scales we can use
1) Scaling from below. The OP already established that Rimuru can easily see things that are Mach 1, so that's his regular perception speed. Thought Acceleration enhances it x1000, so Mach 1000. And Hakurou was pretty much blitzing him, that even perception couldn't really catch up, as OP already establishes himself. Do I need to say more?
2) Scaling from above. We have an accepted Relativistic perception calc for TDL Rimuru. His perception enhancement is x1,000,000 so a 1000 times greater. If we divide his perception speed there by 1000, we'll get MHS perception and we again get to the previous point
Supporting arguments
Arguments that can't really be said to be a definite confirmation, but support the rating as more consistent
Starwolves can use their horns to serve as a conductor for Black Lightning, meaning that they can use non-sky lightning in their fights and since they aren't considered some kind of a super-blitz species, those can be dodged by more powerful opponents in fights
In Volume 13 Untransformed Gabil (again, ≤Rimuru) and his squad, during the battle with Imperial Airships were met with a huge barrage of magical attacks, including lightning. They were described as "going down one by one" due to size and quantity of spells, which implies that they weren't just simply tagged by the lightning and held on, which wouldn't be the case with Supersonic vs MHS
In Volume 15 Gadra fights an opponent that is stated to be below Saare. In the fight he uses a scientifically generated lightning and the only thing that gets to the opponent isn't the attack speed, but the fact that it was created without any magic
In the same Volume, Frey goes against a harpy opponent that uses a lot of lightning attacks. From Frey's own statements later, we learn that all of these were Harpies' intristic magic. Harpies are known as masters of high-speed aerial combat, which means they regularly fight in the sky, which again means they have enough speed to dodge the lightning they fire against eachother to some extent
All of this, coupled with the fact that I've yet to see any actual anti-feats for MHS makes me believe that it is indeed the correct rating
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Astral_Trinity439
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I initially thought everything was fine, but I have a few contentions now
I'll make a detailed post tomorrow.
For note, most of the stuff here is fine except with Hakuro and Rimuru. And maybe a few others that scale from them.
I'll make a detailed post tomorrow.
For note, most of the stuff here is fine except with Hakuro and Rimuru. And maybe a few others that scale from them.
Astral_Trinity439
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First off, the abbreviations
SoL= Speed of Light (I prolly won't need use this one tho)
SoS= Speed of Sound
That'll be >26 m/s
If yes then sure otherwise it's
Attack speed for post-naming Beni (idk where this scales tbh)
As for Shion and Ranga (flight), I think we can put them at Supersonic with this:
Sky Dragon with SoS attack speed (excluding lightning attacks)
[/SPOILER="SCANS"]
And MHS+ speed for Rimuru flight + reaction+ attack (possibly combat) (gluttony) along with attack speed for Sky dragon.
(Timestamp : 17:00 ~ 18:00)
The LN doesn't give much details other than the fact that the dragon has lightning as its attack, but the Anime gives the exact visuals and details that can be used.
Rimuru came in between the sky dragon and humans after it had already fired its lightning and instantly absorbed it. That goes for flight + reaction + attack. The possibly combat speed is cuz we know Rimuru was flying towards the sky dragon from behind initially. So he would have to come between the humans and the lightning, turn around, then activate his skill. I think that's quite enough for combat but eh, I could be wrong in this aspect.
Supersonic Attack speed for Gobuta. Probably high into supersonic due to "easily" keyword:
POSSIBLY RELATIVISTIC+ PERCEPTION AND REACTION SPEED FOR RIMURU??
Considering how much Rimuru underestimates himself, we can prolly use this as an "at best" speed. Perception speed is pretty much guaranteed tho. This is a battle to death scenario tho, so I don't think Hakuro upscales from this. We're talking about a full serious Rimuru with maximum output great sage here.
Lastly, I think this feat needs to be calculated, really. Because I'm pretty sure deflecting millions of/countless tiny fragments at close range is... Pretty high in speed.
I think you could also calculate this:
That is all I could find ATM in V1~6. Note that I haven't checked anything beyond V6, I'll make a separate post about useable feats from there.
Also, these are still just the individual feats for each character, not chainscales (Or if any, just two characters). A full chain scale can be figured out later.
Also, all scans (otl) used here are raw-checked by me even if the raws aren't given, so there are no mistranslations in them unless I pointed it out. Though, if I still missed some, feel free to point it out.
SoL= Speed of Light (I prolly won't need use this one tho)
SoS= Speed of Sound
I'd say update this with > 60 miles/96 km/h
Is this unknown because it's being calculated?
If yes then sure otherwise it's
Attack speed for post-naming Beni (idk where this scales tbh)
As for Shion and Ranga (flight), I think we can put them at Supersonic with this:
Sky Dragon with SoS attack speed (excluding lightning attacks)
[/SPOILER="SCANS"]
Raws for confirmation:
[/SPOILER]
And MHS+ speed for Rimuru flight + reaction+ attack (possibly combat) (gluttony) along with attack speed for Sky dragon.
(Timestamp : 17:00 ~ 18:00)
The LN doesn't give much details other than the fact that the dragon has lightning as its attack, but the Anime gives the exact visuals and details that can be used.
Rimuru came in between the sky dragon and humans after it had already fired its lightning and instantly absorbed it. That goes for flight + reaction + attack. The possibly combat speed is cuz we know Rimuru was flying towards the sky dragon from behind initially. So he would have to come between the humans and the lightning, turn around, then activate his skill. I think that's quite enough for combat but eh, I could be wrong in this aspect.
Supersonic Attack speed for Gobuta. Probably high into supersonic due to "easily" keyword:
POSSIBLY RELATIVISTIC+ PERCEPTION AND REACTION SPEED FOR RIMURU??
Yeah so, about the supersonic thing. It's a mistranslation. The raws don't say supersonic, just say "super speed", so yeah, no supersonic here.
Lastly, I think this feat needs to be calculated, really. Because I'm pretty sure deflecting millions of/countless tiny fragments at close range is... Pretty high in speed.
I think you could also calculate this:
Basically Souei slicing many times in what seems like a second or less (one frame).
YT version:
(time stamp = 04:45 ~ 04:49)
YT version:
(time stamp = 04:45 ~ 04:49)
That is all I could find ATM in V1~6. Note that I haven't checked anything beyond V6, I'll make a separate post about useable feats from there.
Also, these are still just the individual feats for each character, not chainscales (Or if any, just two characters). A full chain scale can be figured out later.
Also, all scans (otl) used here are raw-checked by me even if the raws aren't given, so there are no mistranslations in them unless I pointed it out. Though, if I still missed some, feel free to point it out.
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But it doesn't say his perception is faster than sound just that he can see things coming at that speed. Also...
This isn't a blitz, you can't say someone who reacted to an attack was blitzed. Furthermore, Hakurou used a diversion and stealth to get close to him, Rimuru only caught the blow cause great sage sped up his thought process to a thousand times. In other words, Hakurou ain't scaling to 1000x the speed of sound + considering Rimuru still managed to block (only his perception is boosted not reactions right?), it's iffy if that version of him should scale to transonic (given the need for stealth and diversions but this minor tidbit shouldn't matter)
Astral_Trinity439
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And that's why it's transonic, which is 0.9x SoS to 1.1x. The > is just a small approximate value of at best a few digits (not even tens) just in case and cuz transonic's baseline is not exactly SoS but a bit below. And the sign is = >
(Was putting space in between a bad idea?)
Magic sense exists, so Stealth won't work on it, but speed will.
Well, the chain scaling is mainly done by Dark and I only calculated the overall value based on that, so I'll let him comment on this.
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If you could make the scans into Gyazo, with the translation number, it would be lovely. (I will update the proposal alongside that)
Regarding the values, I am still working on the exact details, but the ones we know have been given a rating, the ones that scale or upscale someone have been left empty until I have finished working on the new speed description for all of the ones affected (this will take some time)
Not gonna answer much, since it was covered by Atsral's reply, but I will say the exact values are still being debated, and that from my own Knowledge no one scales from Hakurou (luckily)
Now that I am back, I can finally continue with this, but I will say. The feat in question here is Orge Hakurou, and he has a feat of being the same speed as Rimuru's boosted perception in the same novel, but after evolving.
So yeah, Hakurou's speed (Orge) is atleast enough to be blitzed by an unboosted Rimuru, and barley higher than an boosted Rimuru's combat speed.
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I think we can do a 2x downscale from Rimiru for Beni due to him giving Rimiru trouble with his technique. I don't think only technique would allow Beni to bridge a larger gap
CodeCCLL
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I looked at the episode, and yes, it seems we can safely say that Rimuru managed to fly behind the Sky Dragon and move faster than lightning, intercepting the lightning bolt. I'll calculate that when I have time.
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They either inherited the fraudness from Clayman or 8-bit
My personal preference is the latter
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That would be lovely. I am also waiting for another speed calc for Benimaru to be done.
(I am slowly making a sandbox for the new speed ratings.)
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So, Code, do you think we can use this to downscale Beni from Rimuru? I was thinking 2-3 times slower to be sure. I just don't see Beni giving Rimuru any sorts of trouble if it's slower
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SomebodyData
Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...
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As the scaling stands now in the OP, I don't see any issues. So I agree with the revisions, but I do want to confirm if everything in the comments have been resolved.
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