TF2 Speed nerf

[Typhlosion130]

So making this post real quick because I am honestly angry with how many assumptions take place in the current calc used for the speed of the team fortress characters and such. So lets get to it.

In the source engien for tf2, distance is measured in Hammer units, HU for short. A single hammer unit is 1.904 centimeters. This gives us our basis of easily measuring the speed of each merc as well as travel speed of weapons.

Scout moves at 400 HU per second. Do the math and that equals 7.616 meters per second

Heavy moves at 230 HU per second, equaling to 4.3792 meters per second (honestly pretty good lugging that giant mini gun around)

Pyro, Engineer, sniper: 300HU or 5.712 meters per second

Soldier: 240HU or 4.5696 meters per second

Demoman: 380HU or 5.3312 meters per second

Demoman Charge: 750HU or 14.28 meters per second

Medic/spy: 320HU or 6.0928 meters per second

This is the true speed of the mercs, properly calculated no assumptions based to scale soldiers rocket to a real RPG in terms of speed, and numbers which DO NOT conflict with any of hte offical animations or comics of team fortress 2.

And only because these were in teh last calcs lets measure the speed of listed weapons in the previous calcs now actually properly measured, and lets all remember these numbers do not conflict with offical animations or the comics, no where do we see varability in the speeds of mercs or merc weapons (only AP which this is not about)

Applying this logic to weapons the only weapon speed I currently have on hand,

Soldier's Rocket: 1100HU which equates to simply 20.944 meters per second

at this point every thing can be scaled acordingly from there but the point is that these numbers are solid concrete evidence which at no piont conflict with any offical animations or comics. and at no point take any asumptions.


EDIT:

To adress any concerns with this information relying on game mechancis (honestly a very VERY reliable source for this) Let me explain in a bit of detail why this is better and more accurate than any other calc any one else could do.

For one, this goes with out any assumptions what so wever, we do not scale any weapon projectile speeds when there is no evidence to do so (see previous calc mentioned above)

it does not scale any thing to any other IRL eqivilant, becuase this is not IRL this is team fortress two with its own bit of physics in verse which allow differnet types of weapons to exist.

From solly's rocket launcher with honestly very slow rockets compared to IRL to medic's medi gun.

This Thread is a checkmate move on speed calculations simply due to that it takes no chances what so ever, nothing is estimated, guessed, or attempted to be scaled and it is instead built upon cold hard facts WHICH all copletely comply with any and all out side sources like the offical animations of hte series or comics. in no point in either of those do we see the characters potentially breaking any of these calculations.

Not only that, but to assume such insanely high speed stats for hte mercs there are loop holes every where you look.

For one; if the mercs really moved that fast and say the world was made to appear in normal play to the player or just in general, this would mean that the tf2 world would have insanely high gravity to compensate for their inhanced sense of the world around them making things seem normal to us again yet another assumption to make to make the world work under the insane conditions of the previous calculation.

Put simply, the previous calculation is just scaled to an assumption with no proper facts or evidence to support what its even being scaled too in the first place. the person literally just assumed soldiers rocket launcher which he found shortly post WW2 will instantly ahve the same velocity as a RPG IRL. no thats the kind of assumptions that make characters vastly over tiered over very poorly researched reasons. (like the entirety of undertale which I plan on going into some time in the future)

Put simply, I have proof, previous calc has assumptions. its pretty clear which is the winner here. game mechanics or not, these speed calcs properly fit both in game, comic, and animations of hte series. and every bit of evidence you can find would find this belivable, so long as you don't make huge assumptions.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

From what I see, your whole argument relies on game mechanic. In-game time shouldn't be used to debunk speed feat.

 

[Typhlosion130]

From what I see, your whole argument relies on game mechanic. In-game time shouldn't be used to debunk speed feat.

No but lets take a look at another peice of evidence, if soldiers rocket actually travels at an equivilant rate of that of an IRL RPG and mercs have reaction times way beyond that, why would bullets still be so instantanius when their ractions are way beyond those speeds, explosion smoke would last longer, there are a number of factors which show that these game mechanic ways of measuring are put simply more proper and accurate in every sense of what you see.

 

[Typhlosion130]

bump

 

[KittBetelgeuse]

I agree with saikou, as this counts as game mechanics.

 

[Typhlosion130]

I agree with saikou, as this counts as game mechanics.

Game mechanics to measure the speed. pure evidence when you look at every thing about the game. if the mercs reacted and moved as fast as thier current levels suggest, bullets would not act as hit scan and would be more than dodgable, smoke from explosions wouldn't last, and in order for the physics to work like they do you'd have to say that the tf2 univers has some insanely high gravity. put simply there is every thing to go against their current speed, and using these "game mechanics" to measure speed properly and the numbers we see comply completely with all offical out of game sources you could find. this is not only more accurate than making an asumption other wise but the most accuarate you'll ever get on a speed reading. denying this is simply over tiering a profile by a **** ton. especially when chances are it gets equalized speed in all its matchups any how.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Bump (this time with edits)

 

[Typhlosion130]

bump

 

[KittBetelgeuse]

I have a question, Wouldnt this make the rockets unrealistically slow?

Im not completely sure of using the timeframe of the game, since projectiles are inconsistent, rather think a better reference should be picked for another calc, I think the rockets are still the safest bet

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You are using game-mechanics speed, which is something that we don't do for any verse. We use cutscenes, lore, and things more conclusive from an in-story perspective. The rocket is that "slow" because it has to be, since the player wouldn't be able to dodge it if it was realistic.

Similar things happen in the Sonic the Hedgehog games, where he is Subsonic at his fastest, despite being officialy Faster-than-Light in base. You wouldn't be able to control Sonic at how fast he really is, and so he is portrayed as slower in gameplay for necessity.

In MOBAs such as League of Legends and SMITE, characters have widely different Tiers and they are all 100% equal in gameplay. Similarly, in Street Fighter characters have comparable strengths and speeds in gameplay, but widely different feats. If we were to base it solely on in-game stats, characters like E.Honda and Zangief would be ranked as stronger than Ryu, while Oro would be quite average.

Likewise, in Castlevania certain enemies may have higher-stats than others due to balance and for the sake of providing an interesting experience. This may result in some normal enemies having a higher-damage output than Dracula, or being way faster than Dracula due to how they are animated, despite that canonically all demons in Dracula's castle are a manifestation of his will and thus everything that they do he would scale.

And in Shin Megami Tensei, every demon you encounter is taken from Mythology / Folklore and has a Compendium Entry that details his legends and stories, and so it's not uncommon for you to read about characters who split Heaven and Earth, who caused a global deluge, who destroyed or created Worlds, or who moves the Sun. These feats are, however, completely separate from their in-game level. And so you can sometimes find a demon with a Low 2-C feat at Lv.12, while another who's feat is only 8-C at Lv.53.

In short, you should not, under any conditio, use Game-Mechanics.

 

[Ryukama]

Let's see. Use the method that relies on cutscenes, canon and the actual story itself. Or use the method that relies on game mechanics. The same method that makes Sonic slower than sound and Mega Man barely superhuman. The same method that'd ensure that practically no video game characters ever reach Hypersonic, let alone FTL or anything above.

I agree that "its pretty clear which is the winner here."

Like Matt said, gameplay has to be slowed down so that we can actually be able to play them. If Sonic in the games was even a millionth as fast as he is in the story, it would be utterly unplayable.

This argument is just like the "but the audience can see their fights" one people use to downplay speed in TV shows, movies, cartoons or anime.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Let's see. Use the method that relies on cutscenes, canon and the actual story itself. Or use the method that relies on game mechanics. The same method that makes Sonic slower than sound and Mega Man barely superhuman. The same method that'd ensure that practically no video game characters ever reach Hypersonic, let alone FTL or anything above.
I agree that "its pretty clear which is the winner here."

Like Matt said, gameplay has to be slowed down so that we can actually be able to play them. If Sonic in the games was even a millionth as fast as he is in the story, it would be utterly unplayable.

This argument is just like the "but the audience can see their fights" one people use to downplay speed in TV shows, movies, cartoons or anime

Again, we come to thep oint that in no senerio what soever, game, animations, comics does the previous calc make sense. and it is all based on some obsurd idea of assuming the rocket launcher has a realistic travel speed.

Where as this, calc actually represents the characters properly. in no senerio can you deny this calc unless you try to say "game mechanics" or use the old calc which is based on assumptions to begin with.

and there's more evidence than assuming that its been slown down to be possible to see as well.

Explosion smoke not dissapearing much slower than it normally would (as to speed your viewing up to that of the characters) gravity would have to be insanely high.

there are so many factors taht disprove the last calc that none appear here.

So while you could try to make assumptions to say the last calc is correct how about we focus on this one and try to dis prove any of the given number's posibility of being real with out referencing any thing other than tf2 content its self.

 

[Ryukama]

Again, we come to thep oint that in no senerio what soever, game, animations, comics does the previous calc make sense. and it is all based on some obsurd idea of assuming the rocket launcher has a realistic travel speed.

Umm we assume that weapons are the real life equivalent unless the story proves otherwise. By this logic we can't ever calc a bullet timing feat because it requires us to assume that the verse's bullet is as fast as a real bullet.

If you can find a scene in the comics or cutscenes that suggests that TF2's rockets are slower than real life ones, then we'll take that into consideration. If not, we scale them to real rockets.

Where as this, calc actually represents the characters properly. in no senerio can you deny this calc unless you try to say "game mechanics" or use the old calc which is based on assumptions to begin with.

Except it is perfectly valid to deny your calc based upon game mechanics. If we calced all games the way you do, Mega Man's superhuman, Sonic is Subsonic and no video game characters in fiction come remotely close to Sub-Relativistic. Story and cutscenes >>> gameplay and mechanics. That's how we've always done this.

and there's more evidence than assuming that its been slown down to be possible to see as well.

Explosion smoke not dissapearing much slower than it normally would (as to speed your viewing up to that of the characters) gravity would have to be insanely high.

there are so many factors taht disprove the last calc that none appear here.

The audience is completely separate from a fictional story. If something within the series is slowed down or sped up for the audience to properly see, that means nothing within the verse itself. Or else Dragon Ball characters are < Subsonic.

So while you could try to make assumptions to say the last calc is correct how about we focus on this one and try to dis prove any of the given number's posibility of being real with out referencing any thing other than tf2 content its self.

All calcs require a certain degree of assumption. Assuming a millitary rocket in a series is as fast as a real life one when there's nothing but game mechanics to suggest it isn't, is a reasonable assumption. And you do realize by insisting to use game mechanics you are referencing things "other than tf2 content its self"? The cutscenes, story and lore is what goes on within a game's canon. Not the gameplay.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ryukama right now is just destroying it:


Consecutive Normal Arguments

 

[DerpCity]

Agreeing with Ryukama and Matthew about using cutsense and lore over game speed. Besides, isn't the TF2 world filled with technology like automated turrets, robot armies, and (pretty much) magic healing beams? It'd be very weird if their military somehow went backwards in technology for rocket propulsion yet have advanced so much farther in other fields.

 

[Typhlosion130]

And I will take a moment to disprove literally every thing there.

You're assuming weapons are IRL eqivilants with no evidence to support it, the guns obviously act normal but there are clear speed differences which would show that the rocket launcher would not only not travel at the speed of any IRL equivilant, (not that it has one). ontop of that fact there is no evidence to support this, and plenty with the world around the mercs that cofirm that it infact is a slow projectile, with this fact staying very consistant through out all sources.

"If you can find a scene in the comics or cutscenes that suggests that TF2's rockets are slower than real life ones, then we'll take that into consideration. If not, we scale them to real rockets."

Meet hte medic, in the beginning sceen we see them running way from a group of blue soldiers, Rockets ensue, they don't out run them, they pass miss and a group hits scout (not killing him but knocking him into a window of the building the medic is in).

now going on in the movement in this sceen every thing points to slow rockets and listed speeds above, more so in a way that would disprove the previous calc than any thing.

If the whole sceen was slown down as you say, explosion smoke would stay longer, movements would be a bit more jumpy especially on the demoman in teh beginnin who is in a wheel chair and we have no feats of flight based control (aside scouts double jump) so either make the assumption tf2 has insane gravity and start scaling to that feat or its evidence against that.

"Except it is perfectly valid to deny your calc based upon game mechanics. If we calced all games the way you do, Mega Man's superhuman, Sonic is Subsonic and no video game characters in fiction come remotely close to Sub-Relativistic. Story and cutscenes >>> gameplay and mechanics. That's how we've always done this."

And I get that I really do, but what we have is in game calcs which represent any feat we see in animations/comics perfectly compared to assumptions which cause hundreds of inconsistancies. as apposed to this calc which no evidence against it can be found.

"The audience is completely separate from a fictional story. If something within the series is slowed down or sped up for the audience to properly see, that means nothing within the verse itself. Or else Dragon Ball characters are < Subsonic."

There is no proof what so ever that this is infact happening and more proof to disprove that it is at that.

"All calcs require a certain degree of assumption"

yes but this level of assumption with this many inconsistancies is simply too much when hard evidence is there against it.

 

[Promestein]

I absolutely agree with Ryu here.

 

[Ryukama]

And I will take a moment to disprove literally every thing there.
You're assuming weapons are IRL eqivilants with no evidence to support it, the guns obviously act normal but there are clear speed differences which would show that the rocket launcher would not only not travel at the speed of any IRL equivilant, (not that it has one). ontop of that fact there is no evidence to support this, and plenty with the world around the mercs that cofirm that it infact is a slow projectile, with this fact staying very consistant through out all sources.

Again, assuming weapons are IRL equivalent when nothing goes against that is a fair assumption. Especially in a series that has shown to have superior technology than our world. Like I said, all bullet timing feats would be invalid if that weren't the case. Because we couldn't assume that a story's bullets are as fast as our own.

Meet hte medic, in the beginning sceen we see them running way from a group of blue soldiers, Rockets ensue, they don't out run them, they pass miss and a group hits scout (not killing him but knocking him into a window of the building the medic is in).
now going on in the movement in this sceen every thing points to slow rockets and listed speeds above, more so in a way that would disprove the previous calc than any thing.

If the whole sceen was slown down as you say, explosion smoke would stay longer, movements would be a bit more jumpy especially on the demoman in teh beginnin who is in a wheel chair and we have no feats of flight based control (aside scouts double jump) so either make the assumption tf2 has insane gravity and start scaling to that feat or its evidence against that.

Scout almost outruns a rocket, gets hit by one at the last moment and can't dodge the second one cause he's injured. That doesn't not seem to contradict that the rockets are as fast as real life equivalents. At most it just shows that there's a low end where Scout couldn't outrun a rocket. Which considering how close he got to doing so, doesn't seem like a big deal.

I don't think you get it. In all fight scenes with superhuman characters, their movements are slowed down so the audience can see them. How else do you think we keep up with Goku and Beerus?

The fact that the smoke in the background is fast or that gravity is unchanged doesn't impact anything. Because just the characters are slowed down from our perspective with no change in the series itself for out viewing convience. It's a 4th wall thing. It's like saying subtitles they put to help us understand makes something invalid.

And I get that I really do, but what we have is in game calcs which represent any feat we see in animations/comics perfectly compared to assumptions which cause hundreds of inconsistancies. as apposed to this calc which no evidence against it can be found.
We can't have double standards. If we adamantly go against these methods for every other game, we do the same here. Using gameplay slowed down for our playing convience makes Sonic subsonic, Mega Man superhuman and every game character ever <<<< Sub-Rel. If you disagree with us doing this, you have to disagree with this downgrade.

There is no proof what so ever that this is infact happening and more proof to disprove that it is at that.

Yeah you can say this about every superhuman fight scene ever. "There's no proof that Dragon Ball, One Punch Man, etc. etc. etc. fights are slowed down for the audience to see." It's kinda an obvious given that's the case.

yes but this level of assumption with this many inconsistancies is simply too much when hard evidence is there against it.

All I'm assuming is that in a series with futuristic technology beyond our own, that their rockets are at least as fast a real life one. Which is what we do with a massive plethora of other feats.

Nothing you've brought up goes against this except using gameplay mechanics and smoke animation. Both things I and others have thoroughly gone in detail as to why they're invalid now. And one cutscene where a character almost outruns a rocket but fails, which still doesn't do anything to prove the rocket is slow rather just that the character would be.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

As a huge TF2 buff myself, I find myself agreeing with Matt and Ryu.

That said, from a glance, I'm not sure if we can use the current calc, as it compares in-game speed to weapon firing speed. That might be okay, but I'm not 100% sure. I think theirs an older calc that puts them Subsonic/Transonic anyway, so I'll dig for that.

Soldiers 9-A feat also needs to be revised with current standards. They'd still probably be around 9-A anyway, if just scaling off the Pomson and Cow Mangler 5000.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, I think it's clear that everyone is standing on the side of Ryukama.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm of course fine if there are other issues with the calc that make it unusable. But I do not like the idea of using game mechanics to downgrade with.

Since I'm going out to party later today and don't want to waste much more of my time on this, I'll break down my final points for Typhlosion130.

• Assuming that a weapon is the same speed as its real life equivalent if nothing goes against that is reasonable and we do it for countless calcs. Such as bullet timing.

• Gameplay gets slowed down for us to be able to enjoy. Want proof of that? Play a Sonic game. Just play it at all. The mere fact you're able to control a FTL character is proof this happens.

• Because of the above it is inherently flawed to use gameplay. And if we do, Sonic is subsonic, Mega Man is superhuman and every game character ever is <<<< Sub-Rel.

• The smoke not clearing away in perfect time during cutscenes doesn't disprove that gameplay slows down the movements of superhuman people and objects so we can play as them.

• A character not being able to outrun a weapon doesn't at all prove that weapon isn't as fast as real life equivalent.

That's all I have to say on the matter. The rest of staff can make whatever decision they want regarding this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Badass shit

Jesus Christ, man. All that's missing on your post is this:

 

[Ryukama]

Lol thanks for the kind words, Matt.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with Ryukama.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Ryukama.

 

[Typhlosion130]

I"m going to put this simply, most cases you assume to scale to IRL eqivalants but here there is so much evidencde every where you look taht goes against scaling to this that its obsurd that something this big has gone through.

Don't really know how hard it is to understand these characters are at best super human in speed and reactions.

 

[Ryukama]

I and others have disproven every single piece of your evidence going against multiple times. The only one having trouble understanding at this point is you.

I believe this is over, unless there are some corrections Dark wants/has to make.

 

[Typhlosion130]

You have disproven nothing here, you've simply said that you can deny game mechanic ways of measuring.

And that is about it.

 

[Ryukama]

And I explain in great detail why you can deny game mechanic ways of measuring. As well as explaining the flaws within game mechanic ways of measuring. I back up what I've "simply said" with reasoning.

What is your "evidence" again? Gameplay mechanics (this one has been debunked so many times at this point not even worth mentioning again), smoke animation in cutscenes not fading in perfect time (this doesn't disprove that gameplay gets slowed down for people to be able to play), Scout not outrunning a rocket (at best this proves Scout is slow, not the rocket).

 

[Typhlosion130]

Game mechanics are unreliable in most if not nearly all cases. I get this.

But my method of using game mechanics to measure has no inconsistancies in any form. it has no proof do disprove it isn't correct it is completely consistant with all possible source material and to top it off it takes NO ASSUMPTIONS what so ever.

This entire time you try to defend the current calc as a reason to why this is wrong but it just doesn't work. the current' calc disproves nothing as it is entirly based on an asumption about the rocket launcher which has no evidence to support it.

To put it simply, I"m not proving the scout is slow, I"m proving that both the scout and the rocket are slow.

 

[Ryukama]

And that's the thing. Game mechanics are extremely unreliable. We should be consistent and try not to use them to the best of our ability. Especially not using the exact same methods that can be used to downgrade literally every game character in existence and make MFTL+ characters superhuman.

You keep calling the rocket launcher thing an assumption as if that immediately invalidates it. Again, all calcs in some way or another use assumptions. Saying that a rocket launcher in a series with futuristic technology beyond our own being at least as fast as the real life equivalent unless proven otherwise is a fair assumption.

Once more, is every bullet timing feat in fiction now invalid cause we need proof their bullets are as fast as ours? Are people who can destroy army tanks no longer 9-A cause we need proof their tanks are as strong as ours?

Your scene only proves at most that Scout is slow though. Not the rocket itself. The fact someone couldn't outrun it doesn't at all mean the rocket is slow.

It's as simple as this. We assume feats involving weapons like bullets and rockets are similar to the real life equivalent unless there is proof otherwise. If there is no proof that the weapon is different, we don't treat it as different. You have no proof that the rocket is slower, therefore we scale it.

Gameplay mechanics don't prove that the rocket is slower. Smoke animations in the cutscenes don't prove that the rocket is slower. Someone not outrunning the rocket certainly does not prove that the rocket is slower.

 

[Typhlosion130]

(you know with this kind of discussion we're having, its no wonder so many profiles have seeminly scaled out of control profiles)

At this point the rules are denying any and all evidence to prove this so there's really no point. I guess we will forever have broken tf2 profiles.


Putting it simply I have more evidence to support my point than the last calc and I"m getting shot down to shoddy work of the rules.

 

[Ryukama]

You mean the same rules that make it possible to calc bullet timing feats? The same rules that make sure every video game character in fiction isn't <<<< Sub-Rel? Yeah those are very shoddy rules indeed.

One more time:

• We assume the rocket is equal to its real life equivalent unless there is evidence to the contrary.

• Game mechanics are as much proof these rockets are slow as they are that Sonic is subsonic or that nobody is above Hypersonic.

• Smoke animation in cutscenes don't prove the rockets are slow.

• People not being able to outrun rockets doesn't prove rockets are slow.

You don't have any evidence these rockets are slow, therefore we'll treat them as being as fast as IRL. I and others have repeated these things numerous times. This is going absolutely nowhere, and is just moving around in circles with you now insulting this site and its profiles. The thread should be closed at this point.

That's certainly the democratic thing to do. Counting the comments and kudos, 14 people disagree with this. 1 person agrees with it. It's rather safe to say this will not be accepted.

If Darkanine has his own problems with these calcs that will get them downgraded, he's more than free to start a new thread or make corrected calcs.