The End's True Form (Sonic Frontiers)

[TheFrostKnight]

As you know, on The End's profile, it states "higher at full strength (Should it have successfully regained its full strength, Super Sonic would be unable to stop it)" in reference to The End's true form. But my question is why is the moon form not being treated as its' true form? In the clip, Sage states that The End, in a mist form, traveled to space to gain its' real form and says that Super Sonic couldn't stop it. She never says "If it regains its' true form, Super Sonic can't stop it."

And at the end of the final battle, Super Sonic was unable to stop The End as it immediately activated the self-destruct after he rammed through it which matches up with Sage's statement. So why do we treat The End as having another true form?

 

[TheFrostKnight]

Bump

 

[Flashlight237]

That's honestly a good question.

 

[Dalesean027]

this could be something from the ends speech itself but I'll put this in the sonic discussion

 

[JJSliderman]

I don’t think true form is the same thing as full strength; we haven’t seen the End’s true form because it’s appearance is always shifting based on everything around it.

That said, Sage may have been wrong that Sonic could not stop the End’s full power, as she was wrong about the power of emotions earlier. But there’s no answer one way or the other, and considering this was just one incarnation of the End, it will probably show up again someday.

 

[TheFrostKnight]

I don’t think true form is the same thing as full strength; we haven’t seen the End’s true form because it’s appearance is always shifting based on everything around it.

Except the only mention of The End's full strength is its' true form. And The End's perception manipulation doesn't have anything to do with its' strength iirc.

That said, Sage may have been wrong that Sonic could not stop the End’s full power, as she was wrong about the power of emotions earlier. But there’s no answer one way or the other, and considering this was just one incarnation of the End, it will probably show up again someday.

Sage doesn't mention The End's full power, she just states that Sonic couldn't stop The End, a statement proven to be true after Super Sonic rams through The End at the end of the boss battle.

 

[JJSliderman]

Sage just said if the End reached full strength, THEN not even Super Sonic would be able to stop it.

And no, the true form is not tied to strength, no correlation is made there.

 

[ShakeResounding]

But my question is why is the moon form not being treated as its' true form?

The moon is the form of The End that we as the audience see, stated by Kishimoto (director of Frontiers) due to the Moon being a depiction of death within Japanese stuff. He's mentioned that Sonic saw something else and that he wants to explore that one day.

It's strength doesn't correlate to what form it's perceived at because it's different for everyone, Super Sonic and Sage Supreme are fighting this thing in a race against the clock before it grows strong enough for Super Sonic to not be enough.

 

[TheFrostKnight]

The moon is the form of The End that we as the audience see, stated by Kishimoto (director of Frontiers) due to the Moon being a depiction of death within Japanese stuff. He's mentioned that Sonic saw something else and that he wants to explore that one day.

I know, I was saying the moon form we see should be considered its' true form.

Super Sonic and Sage Supreme are fighting this thing in a race against the clock before it grows strong enough for Super Sonic to not be enough.

Where is this stated? All Sage says that, after controlling Supreme in a mist-like state, The End went to space to retrieve its' true form.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

The moon is the form of The End that we as the audience see, stated by Kishimoto (director of Frontiers) due to the Moon being a depiction of death within Japanese stuff. He's mentioned that Sonic saw something else and that he wants to explore that one day.

It's strength doesn't correlate to what form it's perceived at because it's different for everyone, Super Sonic and Sage Supreme are fighting this thing in a race against the clock before it grows strong enough for Super Sonic to not be enough.

Warning: Message is way too long
I can't wait until more information is revealed in the updates, because this is very confusing.

We can agree that The End's true strength is unquantifiable, right? It shouldn't be much of a factor.

Sage just said if the End reached full strength, THEN not even Super Sonic would be able to stop it.

And no, the true form is not tied to strength, no correlation is made there.

This comment is weird because it's explicitly stated by Sage that "It's retreating into space to regain its true form. Even Super Sonic won't be able to stop it."
So the True Form IS correlated to how effective Super Sonic is to The End.
Otherwise, why would she mention the true from and then claim Super Sonic is not enough?

But there's more to this.

Supreme sealed up The End in previous wars and we know that it could still damage The End, albeit it's attacks did nothing when its health was almost depleted.
Implying Supreme is at least close to the Ends' level.

Super Sonic is above Supreme, due to fighting it to the point where he thought there was more, and Supreme kneeled in the end of the fight.
Additionally, it's an obvious narrative how Sonic just victory laps from one Titan to the next.

For more context, let's check the lyrics to "Undefeatable", here's the interpretation that matches up with what we are shown.
I was confused on what this lyric meant until I found this, it fits with how easily Super Sonic defeated the Titans.
Sonic lyrics can be used as they were approved to be played during the boss fights, and they are narrative depictions of Super Sonic vs The Titans.

This is very consistent as Sonic does hold back and he has beaten the Titans without breaking a sweat.

For exact numbers I did some myself, here are the things I found:



^From here Supreme was at full health



^Here Supreme is already at half health and is expected to be desperate like the other Titans
That's... 763-745 = 18 seconds THAT IS LESS THAN 20 SECONDS




^Here Supreme is in desperate mode (he flew using makeshift wings) and is at half health



^Here Supreme gets defeated and kneels down

That's 862-787 = 75 seconds Or a 1 minute and 15 seconds
By The Way, the only reason it took this long is because Supreme camped out Sonic with his Gun and projectiles during the fight.

These stats just confirm how easily Sonic stomped these guys

We should take into account how Sonic just finished fighting the strongest Titan, that sealed The End previously. He was fighting The End right after.

Sonic was also suffering with the Cyber energy that just corrupted him during the game
Here's what it did to him:

He is suffering
He can't focus
He can move but can't feel anything

More suffering

He sounds like he's in pain
Sonic's body is numb at this point
He's losing memories.
I have seen people on Twitter find the memories thing, so these dialogues appear in random points in the game, not unused.

Also Super Sonic does not cure the Cyber corruption, it was the power of friendship that had any effect.
This was before the Final Island I think? Eggman does say Sonic needs to find all 7 emeralds here.

I don't think it even fully cured Sonic as he could still travel to Cyberspace, which I believe means he still had cyber energy in him.

See my point here is that Sonic just finished fighting off a corruption virus that was ripping him between dimensions, and everyone was weakened in some shape or form against the End.
Supreme was obviously not at its peak due to being destroyed by Sonic, and was repowered in a way by Sage.
Sonic just fought off a virus, which he probably didn't even get rid of entirely.

Sonic, who one shots The End no less.
Sage says Sonic was the only hope in defeating The End in the JP sub, rather than saying Super will not be enough when it reaches its true form.

Super Sonic tanked The End's self destruct attack, which exploded.
He recovered within moments, even flying back from the sky, so he was barely affected by it.

This message is already too long but Sage makes numerous false claims during the game, she underestimates Sonic a lot.
I've compiled a few.

Sage claims that there is no way Sonic can ever beat Giganto, Sonic brings up Super Sonic, and Sage continues to claim that he has “lost before the battle even begun” Sage previously knew “everything” about Sonic, telling him his personality, speed etc
And wouldn’t you know, Sonic stomps Giganto.

Sage is unable to comprehend how Sonic is able to go in and out of Cyberspace so easily. Sage claims Sonic’s survival might just be a fluke, keyword: “might” despite being a Super AI she doesn’t know how Sonic survived and claims it might be a slight setback.

Sage cannot comprehend how Sonic can go Super, and must reassess the battle parameters so that Sonic won’t win again. Sage “runs the simulations” and concludes that Sonic and Knuckles are doomed. Sage says that Sonic never gives up nor does he stop. Meanwhile, Sonic is developing some life threatening mutations. Sage outright admits that Sonic defied her calculations in how long he would survive the corruption. Tails confirms Sonic can overcome impossible odds multiple times. After Sonic defied Sage’s calculations and expectations. She literally recalculated using Eggman’s entire history and concluded that Eggman NEEDS to make Sonic his ally.


So Full Power End seems meh to use or address at all. It's unquantifiable, and Sonic and Supreme who damaged it were not at their best.
Sage is not that reliable when it comes to calculating Sonic's capabilities, as she is unable to properly do it.


Like I said in the beginning, it's best to just wait for more material.
And yeah I admit this reply is way too long.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

I don't know how the youtube clicks appeared that way but guys just scroll up and read from the top please. Thank you.

 

[TheFrostKnight]

Also, given how The End was about to self-destruct and blow the planet (and possibly beyond that) even after Sonic rammed through it, maybe that's what Sage was referring to when she said Super Sonic wouldn't be able to stop The End?

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Also, given how The End was about to self-destruct and blow the planet (and possibly beyond that) even after Sonic rammed through it, maybe that's what Sage was referring to when she said Super Sonic wouldn't be able to stop The End?

At this point I don't even ******* know
But Sage was like "oh shit I need to do something" when that happened. So maybe.

 

[ThatBusyDude]

Warning: Message is way too long
I can't wait until more information is revealed in the updates, because this is very confusing.

We can agree that The End's true strength is unquantifiable, right? It shouldn't be much of a factor.

This comment is weird because it's explicitly stated by Sage that "It's retreating into space to regain its true form. Even Super Sonic won't be able to stop it."
So the True Form IS correlated to how effective Super Sonic to The End.
Otherwise, why would she mention the true from and then claim Super Sonic is not enough?

But there's more to this.

Supreme sealed up The End in previous wars and we know that it could still damage The End, albeit it's attacks did nothing when its health was almost depleted.
Implying Supreme is at least close to the Ends' level.

Super Sonic is above Supreme, due to fighting it to the point where he thought there was more, and Supreme kneeled in the end of the fight.
Additionally, it's an obvious narrative how Sonic just victory laps from one Titan to the next.

For more context, let's check the lyrics to "Undefeatable", here's the interpretation that matches up with what we are shown.
I was confused on what this lyric meant until I found this, it fits with how easily Super Sonic defeated the Titans.
Sonic lyrics can be used as they were approved to be played during the boss fights, and they are narrative depictions of Super Sonic vs The Titans.

This is very consistent as Sonic does hold back and he has beaten the Titans without breaking a sweat.

For exact numbers I did some myself, here are the things I found:



^From here Supreme was at full health



^Here Supreme is already at half health and is expected to be desperate like the other Titans
That's... 763-745 = 18 seconds THAT IS LESS THAN 20 SECONDS




^Here Supreme is in desperate mode (he flew using makeshift wings) and is at half health



^Here Supreme gets defeated and kneels down

That's 862-787 = 75 seconds Or a 1 minute and 15 seconds
By The Way, the only reason it took this long is because Supreme camped out Sonic with his Gun and projectiles during the fight.

These stats just confirm how easily Sonic stomped these guys

We should take into account how Sonic just finished fighting the strongest Titan, that sealed The End previously. He was fighting The End right after.

Sonic was also suffering with the Cyber energy that just corrupted him during the game
Here's what it did to him:

He is suffering
He can't focus
He can move but can't feel anything

More suffering

He sounds like he's in pain
Sonic's body is numb at this point
He's losing memories.
I have seen people on Twitter find the memories thing, so these dialogues appear in random points in the game, not unused.

Also Super Sonic does not cure the Cyber corruption, it was the power of friendship that had any effect.
This was before the Final Island I think? Eggman does say Sonic needs to find all 7 emeralds here.

I don't think it even fully cured Sonic as he could still travel to Cyberspace, which I believe means he still had cyber energy in him.

See my point here is that Sonic just finished fighting off a corruption virus that was ripping him between dimensions, and everyone was weakened in some shape or form against the End.
Supreme was obviously not at its peak due to being destroyed by Sonic, and was repowered in a way by Sage.
Sonic just fought off a virus, which he probably didn't even get rid of entirely.

Sonic, who one shots The End no less.
Sage says Sonic was the only hope in defeating The End in the JP sub, rather than saying Super will not be enough when it reaches its true form.

Super Sonic tanked The End's self destruct attack, which exploded.
He recovered within moments, even flying back from the sky, so he was barely affected by it.

This message is already too long but Sage makes numerous false claims during the game, she underestimates Sonic a lot.
I've compiled a few.

Sage claims that there is no way Sonic can ever beat Giganto, Sonic brings up Super Sonic, and Sage continues to claim that he has “lost before the battle even begun” Sage previously knew “everything” about Sonic, telling him his personality, speed etc
And wouldn’t you know, Sonic stomps Giganto.

Sage is unable to comprehend how Sonic is able to go in and out of Cyberspace so easily. Sage claims Sonic’s survival might just be a fluke, keyword: “might” despite being a Super AI she doesn’t know how Sonic survived and claims it might be a slight setback.

Sage cannot comprehend how Sonic can go Super, and must reassess the battle parameters so that Sonic won’t win again. Sage “runs the simulations” and concludes that Sonic and Knuckles are doomed. Sage says that Sonic never gives up nor does he stop. Meanwhile, Sonic is developing some life threatening mutations. Sage outright admits that Sonic defied her calculations in how long he would survive the corruption. Tails confirms Sonic can overcome impossible odds multiple times. After Sonic defied Sage’s calculations and expectations. She literally recalculated using Eggman’s entire history and concluded that Eggman NEEDS to make Sonic his ally.


So Full Power End seems meh to use or address at all. It's unquantifiable, and Sonic and Supreme who damaged it were not at their best.
Sage is not that reliable when it comes to calculating Sonic's capabilities, as she is unable to properly do it.


Like I said in the beginning, it's best to just wait for more material.
And yeah I admit this reply is way too long.

Not only this but there is the statement that Cyberspace wouldn’t work on The End (that Sonic was facing) by Sage in the Japanese dub implying the incarnation Sonic fought might even be stronger than it originally was.

Sage saying Super Sonic wouldn’t be able to stop The End is referring to Sonic not being able to stop the process of The End gaining its Moon state.

The End was in its true form and if it wasn’t in its true form then the incarnation that Sonic faced was even stronger than that.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Not only this but there is the statement that Cyberspace wouldn’t work on The End (that Sonic was facin by Sage in the Japanese dub implying the incarnation Sonic fought might even be stronger than it originally was.

Sage saying Super Sonic wouldn’t be able to stop The End is referring to Sonic being able to stop the process of

The End was in its true form and if it wasn’t in its true form then the incarnation that Sonic faced was even stronger than that.

I'm pretty sure Sonic parallels The End in a way.



The End when disguised, says this about Sonic.
I'm pretty sure it says a very similar thing when The End finally escaped captivity, thanks to tricking Sonic

 

[Eseseso]

Sage in Supreme says to Sonic that it's not at full strength yet.

Besides, we see that 100% The End was superior to 4 Titans who individually can match Super Sonic who (with Supreme's help) beat a weakened version of The End.