The Judge gets taken to court (Downgrade)

[GyroNutz]

Alright, this is fairly straightforward. Ace Attorney is not a fighting game, and the Judge has no other screen time than presiding over a court (and a few scenes in the courtroom lobby in Investigations). He has never been shown attacking anyone to my knowledge, and thus has no reason to scale to Phoenix Wright or be anything other than a featless old man.

He can survive being whipped by Franziska von Karma so his durability is probably legit, but he's never dodged Fran's whip afaik. So unless clips can be provided, his AP and speed should be downgraded.

 

[Wokistan]

I agree

 

[EMagoIorSouI]

Yes. This profile is extremely redundant as it mostly just has him scaling to the other characters.

 

[GyroNutz]

Also, he shouldn't have any evidence as standard equipment, since they're added to the court record and not on his person, so he'd have to go out of his way to pick up evidence for any reason other than a trial; something he has never done before.

 

[EMagoIorSouI]

I believe that this profile doesn't even require a downgrade, as it should just be deleted.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I believe Judge would get "Unknown" then? Or would it be 10-B?

 

[GyroNutz]

10-B or 10-C for being an elderly, unathletic man

 

[GyroNutz]

What's the consensus? Downgrade or removal?

 

[Buttersamuri]

1. The scaling from the fact everyone should seem to responsibly scale just due to the fact that a lot of people in the series, including small animals and even children (Pearl) have damaged Phoenix in the past. It doesn't show to be alone set to a few certain characters. Normal civilians, Animals, children, and others have all shown to have that attack power. Plus the fact we even see him take several whips to show his durability scales. It's not unreasonable to say he scales AP wise. He isn't made to look like say Mr. Burns where he clearly has a much weaker body. The judge is in fairly good shape. Even able to keep up with the consistent schedule that requires to be a judge. So he clearly isn't in any poor or elderly condition. We don't even really know how old he is. He has always looked like this. Even when Phoenix first started at least 11 years ago. Yet not a change to him.


2. Speed. No he didn't dodge the whip. But that's not what the profile says. The fact of his movement during the whip.and the video is linked on his page. He gives reaction and moves with the whips speed. More explanation below. But, Here's even a frame by frame of his reaction. And then the pixel measurement based on his movement vs the whips movement. That way it can prove even further on his scaling

The reaction




He doesn't start moving until the second frame. So we will use the whips location from that frame. We are using the tip of the whip at the top for the measurement on its speed as that's both the Tip of the whip (the fastest part of it) and the most reliable as we see it in the both of the frames that the judge reacts. And for the judge. We will use his hands. Or more specifically. His thumbs locations. Using this and comparing picture to picture to get our measurements and

Pixel movement


Whip moved 234 pixels

The judge moved 217 pixels

About 93 percent the speed of the whip.

Meaning The judge nearly moved synonymous with the whips edge. So with how fast a whips move. He should be perfectly fine there.

The fact he didn't dodge the whip could both be explained that he just didn't expect it and had his guard down. As well. Is in an enclosed space and wouldn't have much room to dodge the whip anyway. Plus the fact others have dodged it too. Like his brother. And this measurement shouldn't be needed specifically since we still clearly see him move with the whips speed a bit. The measurement I did was just for more exact numbers. But regardless. Speed should be fine.

So with that. I explain in summary Strength should be good do to basic scaling. Since this is completely normal power level in the world, even for children and animals. The Judge also not being made out to look weak or Fraile in any real way. Plus his durability helping back up he is physically comparable. That should be fine

The speed also fine. Do the the fact he reacts to the whip. Really only not dodging do to it being unexpected and being in an enclosed space offering very little way to dodge. And pixel measurement alone showing he moved quite similar to the whip. So there's my summary.

 

[GyroNutz]

He shouldn't have to be shown to be explicitly weaker than people who have 9-B feats (aka harming Wright), he should be shown to explicitly have actual 9-B feats. Being a judge doesn't require superhuman strength, so that's not proof either. We'd also have to consider if small animals/children harming Wright are just gags meant solely for slapstick humour. Not that this matters very much, but he's been confirmed to have grandchildren and is stated/implied to be old numerous times throughout the series.

If the Judge could move synonymously with the whip, then out of the dozens of times that Franziska has tried to whip him, many of which he could have seen coming, he'd at least be able to dodge it once or twice. That looks more like he's being harmed by the whip and the animation wants to clearly show he's being whipped. Others dodging it doesn't matter if he doesn't have any good reason to scale to them.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Being the judge doesn't require below average strength either. You can't treat this verse like it's the real world. What's Superhuman to us, might be perfectly normal for that verse. Like I said. Normal people are this strong in this world is seems. People can hurt Wright and people compared to him. And kill characters comparable. Children can do it to. What is Superhuman strength to us, seems totally normal for that verse. Much like most everyone in Undertale hits small building. It's the world of fiction. You can't compare it to the real world. If their universe seems to treat it like its common. Then it should be fine. Here it's common for normal people to injure and kill people who compare to Wright or injure Wright himself. Plenty of people have done it.

And considering how much it happens. You can't dismiss it as a gag cause it's too often an occurrence. It's pretty unfair to say "oh it's just for lolz" when a lot of people pull it off. Even in serious moments that are important to the plot.

That's the game though. Which highly limits his sprites. Of course he can't give movement reaction. He literally doesn't have the sprites too. In the anime he does actually give reaction like this. As we can clearly see here. And We even seen others do it like his brother too. And the point of the video is comparing his speed to the whips. Not if it hit him in the end or not, cause like I brought up. He neither expected it, nor could he have really dodged it. The space he is in makes it very difficult. The point was how fast he moved in themat certain timeframe. Just comparing the tip of the whip to him. He moved almost on par with it. That's what is important.

 

[GyroNutz]

We treat regular humans as average human level if they don't show any feats above that level. Pretty much everyone in Undertale is 9-A because they in some way scale to Frisk, who has 9-A durability.

He doesn't have the sprites to do so because the game developers never intended for him to do that. And he reacted after the whip hit him, in pain, rather than before it hit him. Wright dodged it in a similar amount of space, and Furio Tigre showed that the judge can very easily hide under his desk.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Except again. Humans in this world. All kinds. Normal people, old people like Wendy, Von Karma, Pearl, all have injured Phoenix. Normal Humans in this World Are Wall. They are normally Wall level. And we give the same assumption for Alphys having physical durability at Snall building despite never taking any hits. And only at one point blocking an attack with magic specifically to protect frisk. Meaning that can't even be scaled. But why is she there? Because it's reasonable that she scales. Even when being the nerdy, scared, none fighting type. It's still reasonable on a scale to say she isn't the odd one out in the verse with weak durability and such.

Same here. Several several people have hurt Wright, killed people comparable to Wright, and such. It's just a normal thing in this verse. People even of young ages are that strong. Even Mia has injured Wright before too. You can't compare fictional humans to real ones.

And That's why it doesn't come from the game. It came from the anime. Where people are capable of dodging the whip. Or at the very least reacting. And again. It doesn't matter if it hit him in the end. This scene Specifically. He didn't expect it. He didn't know she would whip. Yet he still managed to moved within greatly of the distance of the whip. It doesn't matter that he had a place he could have hidden. He didn't have much time to react. He did the natural human reaction when something fast is coming at us. Bracing themselves. And when we compare how fast his arm moved when compared to the whip. It shows he can move close to that whips speed. In the end, doesn't matter that it hit him. It matters in how fast he moved.

 

[GyroNutz]

Not every time a character harms Wright, they become 9-B you know? I'm already iffy with Pearl scaling since her slapping Wright to harm her also seems like a gag. But we still scale her because the feats are there, she can harm Wright. There is nothing showing conclusively that the Judge is physically comparable to a 9-B. It's not up to me to prove an inverse, it's up to you to prove that he is in fact 9-B. If this is a similar case to Alphys, I'll make a thread to downgrade her as well after this is done.

Not just that he didn't dodge it in this scene. He has never come close to dodging the whip, even when Franziska choreographs it. He didn't brace himself, he flinched in pain after the whip hit him. If he's shown to not react to the whip before it hits him, then moves at the same time as it, that's an inconsistency.

 

[Buttersamuri]

The man has accidentally harmed himself when he got surprised and flung his gavel. Plus the fact several dozen people in this verse prove humans just scale to naturally wall level. It's unreasonable to assume that they don't with the proof we have. With how many people in the verse, including the normal people who don't have any reason to be stronger than other people, and are also shown not to be, as Ace Attorney people can fight and kill each other, it's shown that humans are just that Level. Ace Attorney Humans >>> Real Life Humans

Wrong. Your comparing the games to the anime. Which is very different on its availability on what they can do. The anime showed quite clearly people can dodge that whip. The game was simply limited by the sprites. But when we have the anime proving that several people Including the judge and move along and faster than this whip. Then yea. It's fine. The game has less context and is more limited than the anime.

 

[GyroNutz]

No, it's unreasonable in a verse where handguns and decently high falls are a fatal threat that every human is wall level. Not that we should be assuming the Judge is wall level without evidence anyway. If he has harmed himself before, then please send that as the evidence that he's 9-B.

Like I said, if the developers intended for the Judge to be able to dodge the whip, they'd have him dodge the whip. The anime clip itself is a large inconsistency for what I've said above, not even counting all the counter proof of the Judge never being able to react to the whip before it hits him.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I think he was talking about this when the Judge hurt himself? What do you think?

 

[GyroNutz]

That doesn't look like he hurt himself at all

 

[Buttersamuri]

He quite literally says "Ow" in the clip while reacting. Ya don't say that unless it typically hurts. On top of that. They went out of their way to leave a bruise mark on the spot he hit.


And Handguns are a weak argument. You are talking about one of the most inconsistent weapons of all time in fiction. And long falls are inconsistent too. Both of those are just PIS moments. Normal people hurt Phoenix a lot. Who is FAR more consistent to Wall level. So I wouldn't use an inconsistent weapon that can vary from different verses to try and debunk them. Cause it's not a valid point. A long fall being fatal to every human is also just flat out wrong. It isn't shown that falls keep consistently killing people.

Or the devolpers didn't have the time to make those kinds of sprites. Cause it would cost money for a single movement. And the time they had for the making of the game. The anime gives much more context in these feats. And how several characters react and dodging the whip. Because that wasn't limited to sprites. you again are going off of something that clearly was just limited by the games sprites. The anime tells a clearly different story. And a more consistent one because several people dodge it. It's clearly meant to be that way.

 

[GyroNutz]

Oh, I didn't see the bruising part. Fair enough. Problem is, harming himself by bumping his head on a gavel he was trying to pick up is both an antifeat for 9-B durability (Both me and you could definitely survive that) and yet another antifeat for Supersonic reaction/movement speed.

There are multiple sprites that only get used once or twice in the Ace Attorney games (Wright drinking coffee, anyone?), and some that don't get used at all but are left in. If they really wanted to show it, they wouldn't even have to use a seperate sprite; they could do a fade in animation or just state something that implies he dodged/reacted to it. But he doesn't do either for the dozens of times he gets whipped by Von Karma. As well as this, my point about the anime 'feat' being an inconsistency in itself still stands. Like I've said before, what other characters dodge or scale to is irrelevant; if the Judge doesn't have the feats for his ratings himself, he can't have said ratings.

 

[Buttersamuri]

He accidentally smacks it into his own face. Not through it up and it fell on him (where gravity would be responsible). He smacked it towards his own face by accident. Meaning his own force is what bruised himself. And not really no. If he hit himself hard enough to bruise himself. That's gonna kill either of us. We aren't Superhuman. He most certainly is (in our world.). Just because the feat seems small and not very hurtful. The context of the feat is that man definitely survives constant wall level attacks, and his own force caused a bruise to himself. If we are hit by something that can bruise him. We probably are dead.

Doesn't mean they had the time to make the dodge moving sprites. This was very early into the series. Just cause they had time for Phoenix. Doesn't mean they had the time for the judge. The fact is, going off of the game despite its clear limitations when the shines less limited movement proves that multiple people including the judge himself can react and dodge that whip, just proves that's what was meant. Can't go fully off of the limited sprites when the anime clearly intended it to be this way. Plus, most of the time they don't even expect it. And the judge is just fearful cause we know how the judge can be a pushover. So this is very little reason to believe this side when the anime tells an entirely different story, the games are very limited Sprite wise, and they don't even expect to suddenly get whipped.

 

[GyroNutz]

He didn't 'toss' it up, he missed picking it up and tapped it upwards without any real force behind it. I can believe the Judge being wall level in durability, seeing as he has tanked numerous wall level hits. But that gavel wasn't hit up or tossed up by himself; it was purely accident and obviously had no force behind it. So you can't say he has 9-B AP when the feat you want to use disproves him having 9-B durability and that's what the AP is based on.

Stop talking about game limitations, I've already said they didn't need another sprite, and there is nothing in the game implying he could even react to Von Karma's whip, despite it being choreographed and the Judge having a very clear view of her. The games should also be taken as primary canon over the anime. And again, my point about the anime 'feat' being an inconsistency in itself still stands.

 

[Buttersamuri]

He didn't toss it. He smacked it towards his face as he meant to grab it missed and only hit it towards his face. "It obviously had no force behind it" is bull cause it quite literally left a bruise mark and meant to hurt. He went to scoop it up and only caused it to fling into his face. So yes. He damaged himself by accident. Accident or not. It being an accident literally doesn't have any relationship to the actual feat itself. If it did damage and was caused by him. It's a feat. So this disproves nothing and only proves his AP to scale even more than the ace Attorneys consist 9-B stuff. The verse consistently being at 9-B even for average people + The judge Downright bruising himself = A 9-B Judge as well. Very straight forward.

Except it typically isn't expected. She does her little aim like she's about to whip someone a lot but ends up not doing it. That's one of her main Sprite animations. That's not even a fully valid argument. And no. I won't stop bringing up game limitations because that's what this case can clearly hold. As the anime shows different. And You are very much wrong. A lot of people dodge the whip. So it isn't inconsistent by any means. It's often just an unexpected hit.