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The Lady vs The Lady

Lady of Pain via Probability Manip, her Negating Lilithmon's Mid-High Regen and going with EE or Law Manipulation.
 
EE won't work as Lilithmon literally does not exist and is resistant to Yggdrasil's Particle X erasure that even forced a fellow Abstract Entity/Conceptual Being to aquire the X-Antibody to survive.

Law Manipulation is questionable seeing as the SGDL bypass Yggdrasil's law that no one can escape the Dark Area, yet the SGDL do so all the time. But Ex, told me he wanted to make a blog detailing that first before adding it...

Probability Manipulation is nothing new seeing as Lilithmon has fought the likes of Magnamo multiple times.
 
Lady, aside from having perfect working knowledge of all events that affect her months in advance, has huge tier probability hax that makes any situation go in her favor, with every action having the highest possible chance of success. Furthermore, her favorite methods of incap include flat out Existence Erasure, which Lillith doesn't seem to resist, whereas Lady absolutely resists it.

Dragon, I know you're the OP and can't vote, but you're generally the Digimon expert. Can you give an argument for Lillith?
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
EE won't work as Lilithmon literally does not exist and is resistant to Yggdrasil's Particle X erasure that even forced a fellow Abstract Entity/Conceptual Being to aquire the X-Antibody to survive.
Law Manipulation is questionable seeing as the SGDL bypass Yggdrasil's law that no one can escape the Dark Area, yet the SGDL do so all the time.

Probability Manipulation is nothing new seeing as Lilithmon has fought the likes of Magnamo multiple times.
Click to expand...
Also this is actually on her profile.

Resistance to Conceptual Attacks (Resisted getting her very concept attacked by Boltboutamon), Existence Erasure, Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation (Like all Dark Area inhabitants, she is nonexistent)
 
Okay, fair enough, I didn't see that (I literally glanced over it).

So. How good is mind hax? What volume of characters have been haxed that they resisted?
 
How strong is said EE resistance? Because the Lady of Pain's EE destroys said person across Time and Space, killing off Multiversal Conceptual beings with just her Will Power alone.
 
Her Mind hax prowess scales to her tier due to how Digimon actually work. So it's 5-D in potency.
 
Udlmaster said:
How strong is said EE resistance? Because the Lady of Pain's EE destroys said person across Time and Space, killing off Multiversal Conceptual beings with just her Will Power alone.
Click to expand...
Lilithmon literally does not exist and is resistant to Yggdrasil's Particle X erasure that even forced a fellow Abstract Entity/Conceptual Being to aquire the X-Antibody to survive. She has also resisted have her very concept attacked directly by Boltboutamo. Erasing her across all time and space really won't help, matter of fact it will backfire as then LoP will be subject to Karma from the True Lilithmon.
 
Right. I'll ask here too, can I see the link explaining why Digimon gets such a treatment whereas no other verses get that? Referring to mindhax.

EE won't work on a nonexistent being, Udl.
 
Reading through the mindhax thread now. I assume this was approved but I'd like to at least know why. Will respond after.
 
Let me put the "not wall of text" version of this thread.

  • Digimon are "Ideas" of a sort, and are not in fact comprised of data (obviously, why not throw in a plot loop) and are instead made of "Matter, Mind, Energy, Soul, Time, etc"- this is what ideas are formed from.
  • Digimon affect everything that exists. Somehow.
  • What this equates to is that it is assumed on this wiki that, since they can affect "everything", their mindhax are on the scale of their potency since that is what they are shown to be able to affect.
Generally speaking, this is the gist of it, right? According to this, the way around this is just destroying the body. Which is rather the easy part, normally. After that, their resistances are bunk, but the issue is getting rid of the base "shield". Additionally, another apparent weakness is their attunement to human kind. I don't know how much that applies to god tiers like this, but that would be an incredibly easy win condition if it was true.

Now then. I hope you'll forgive me if I altar my vote. Let us assume Lady understands this nature of being since she has ridiculous precog.

  • Soul Manipulation/Mind Manipulation is out, due to Digimon resisting that. I think that's shady, but I'm not going to bother with that.
  • Turning resistances/weaknesses around does give her a considerable hand should she actually manage to do that.
Now, in Lady's favor.

  • Lilith's immortalities aren't hard to get around. Even Type 8 is easy, LoP can just mindhax all humans or rewrite the laws for some time.
  • Law Manipulation also happens to be a viable win condition. Rewriting the laws of the world would allow her to essentially create a win condition, since she did exactly that against Vecna.
  • EE might actually work, since in this case the EE rewrites reality with no trace of you existing. Not even your name can be remembered. Lilith seems to only be physically nonexistent, which means they have no physical form. That's a pretty weak version of a haxed power.Physical attacks are worthless, but in this case, we're not talking about physical attacks anymore.
  • Concept Manip in this case allows Lady to just alter the concept Lilith embodies, the sin of Lust.
So for now, as I now understand the cornerstone of the Digimon argument (i.e., having absurd resistances to some of the more common hax), I will be voting for Lady still. I hope you can understand why- precognition allows her to choose the actions that will make her most likely to succeed, and she in-character does use Law Manipulation to destroy or at least combat those on her power level (again, Vecna empowered by the Serpent). Lady has a viable win condition, several in fact.

Sorry for the confusion with the Digimon stuff. Never interacted with the verse. Philosophy in anime has always been my downfall kek.
 
There are many parts you are misunderstanding about Digimon and Lilithmon in general as many of you reasons can and have been bypassed by Lilithmon. Especially. But I will comment at a later time. I'm going to be off site for the rest of the day.
 
Okay. Sorry if I'm something of a doofus. But I fail to see a lot of stuff for Lilithmon.
 
It' kinda my fault as I haven't put the detail on these guy's profiles as I should have.
 
For the first part, it's best to go to that particular thread and not here. Although I will argue back and forth that it is by no means "shady" and I take offense to that as it implies we are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, when we have detailed blogs about nearly everything about the franchise that are open for everyone to comment on and read.

"Lilith's immortalities aren't hard to get around. Even Type 8 is easy, LoP can just mindhax all humans or rewrite the laws for some time. "

It isn't just humans, Digimon as well. And there are High 2-A Digimon with the exact same resistance. Not to mention that there is also her powers over Lust as well. Also, her Immortality is based upon True Lilithmon. Someone whose infinitely superior to even the strongest of Lilithmon avatars (Hence the At least High 2-A rating). This is an old blog, but still pretty relevant. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...chise:_Explaining_the_Seven_Great_Demon_Lords

This is important as well. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...se:_Dark_Area_and_the_Seven_Great_Demon_Lords

"Law Manipulation also happens to be a viable win condition. Rewriting the laws of the world would allow her to essentially create a win condition, since she did exactly that against Vecna. "

The SGDL can also bypass laws. For example, there is literally a law made by Yggdrasil that no one can ever leave the Dark Area no matter what. The SGDL bypass can easily bypass this. This is mentioned in this blog. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...:_When_a_Bit_of_Philosophy_Reveals_New_Truths

"EE might actually work, since in this case the EE rewrites reality with no trace of you existing. Not even your name can be remembered. Lilith seems to only be physically nonexistent, which means they have no physical form. That's a pretty weak version of a haxed power."

That's not going to help as she has resisted the likes of Particle Worm/Program X that can also flat out erase fellow Abstract and Conceptual Entities. Beelzemon, another of the SGDL had to literally get ahold of the X-Antibody to survive it. Erasing her across space and time also requires her to bypass True Lilithmon, a being who is infinitely above baseline High 2-A. And I haven't even touched Karma yet. There is also the fact that Lilithmon and the other SGDL are completely unharmed by Omegamo's All Delete in which erased the entire Digimon Multiverse.

"Concept Manip in this case allows Lady to just alter the concept Lilith embodies, the sin of Lust."

I mean, Lilithmon blatantly resisted getting her concept attacked directly by Boltboutamon, so I don't see this working.

What Lilithmon has.

-Lady of Pain's Immortality and Regen are useless as Lilithmon bypasses them. This is the same for any resurrection.

-Lilithmon can easily just inflict her with the Sin of Lust that's powered by her True form and make LoP into a new Lilithmon.

-She can just flat out absorb LoP and make it so that she becomes a mere aspect of the SGDL.

-If LoP does kill her, she will have to deal with Karma from the True SGDL. It's not just Lilithmon, but all of them including Lucemo. This is basically a result of you destroying a multiversal constant. Even at the lowest end, this still comes from True Lilithmon.

Basically Karma can really range from anything, but basically you just...disappear as shown with Dianamon. To negate Karma, an outside source has to defeat another set of SGDL to save you. And even then, they themselves will be subject to Karma. Even so much as facing a member of the SGDL is considered a sin and subject to Karma.

VxWeln9
Of course killing a member of the SGDL in one world grants them strength in every other world.

SD4aqT2
-There is also the fact that Phantom Pain is also a skill that she has.

Its Special Move is rotting the opponent's body with a sigh of darkness. It is said that if one is struck by this curse, their data dissipates from the tips of their body and they suffer pain even in death.
A friendly reminder that Lilithmon can bypass all of LoP's from of regen and resurrection and can absorb her. And before you ask, yes Lilithmon can indeed absorb other abstract and Conceptual beings just like all the other SGDL can. And when she absorbs someone, she gains all their abilities. I should also note that the SGDL are also resistance to their own Karma. It is shown in Digimon World: Re: Digitize that the SGDL has to grant the main protagonist their power for him to fight Daemo, otherwise he would have been subject to Karma.

-Can turn those resistances into weaknesses with a simple motion.

Lilithmon Bug


Once again, I will be gone from the site for a bit, I may stop by every now and then, but I am busy with irl things and preparing the Soul Calibur Vl Revisions.
 
Shady may not have been the best word. I disagree with it in a very basic sense due to the basis of it. Carrying on.

So they have higher tier immortality. Then killing isn't an option.

Okay to Law Manip, but that should certainly be placed on the profile with the link to proof and stuff.

If she's only physically non-existant, then yeah, she'd resist physical existence erasure. Not that which negs soul, body, and mind, and instantly erases all traces of you from the timeline altogether.

Now for Lillith's stuff.

  • How does she bypass mid-godly and immortality Type 8 based on concepts created by Luminous Being, exactly? I'd be interested in knowing.
  • How does this work/how is it classified by this site? Range? Time needed to perform? Etc?
  • This seems to be the same as the last one, generally just "make them into me".
  • Doesn't matter, not a part of this victory condition. What comes after isn't relevant, what is relevant is winning. That would be like me arguing "They need to fight Lumi if they kill LoP since Lumi backs her up". Her position is granted by Lumi, who is at minimum Tier High 1-C, possibly 1-A.
  • Resists curses in general. Next.
  • "Turns resistances into weaknesses" is incredibly... shaky. I'll ignore it for now, since currently it seems to me LoP can still insta-thought-based-EE Lilith, since she only appears to resist physical EE.
 
"If she's only physically non-existant, then yeah, she'd resist physical existence erasure. Not that which negs soul, body, and mind, and instantly erases all traces of you from the timeline altogether. "

That's not true. And once again, she has. All Delete. Yggdrasil's Particle Worm. Her mind, body and soul are already erased. I posted this all above. Her Physical Nonexistence has nothing to do with this at all.

"How does she bypass mid-godly and immortality Type 8 based on concepts created by Luminous Being, exactly? I'd be interested in knowing. "

Just because he created the concepts doesn't mean he keeps them from getting destroyed. Unless he actually does. God created the concepts of the Digital World. Doesn't mean the SGDL all have Low 1-C Immortality.

"How does this work/how is it classified by this site? Range? Time needed to perform? Etc?"

It's immediate. It's literally on her profile.

"Doesn't matter, not a part of this victory condition. What comes after isn't relevant, what is relevant is winning. That would be like me arguing "They need to fight Lumi if they kill LoP since Lumi backs her up". Her position is granted by Lumi, who is at minimum Tier High 1-C, possibly 1-A. "

Except, Higher dimensional protection is no longer restricted assuming that being protects them. Again, creating something does not mean that being will automatically come to their aid. Karma is literally unrestricted in this fight and will come to her aid. This is how the SGDL's roll. Just like how characters have 1-C Immortalities in lower tiers. What comes after is completely relevant as it makes a difference.

"I'll ignore it for now, since currently it seems to me LoP can still insta-thought-based-EE Lilith, since she only appears to resist physical EE. "

You brought it up yourself, or now do you remove that?. Also you've ignore everything I've written about her resistance to EE. All Delete erases mind, body and soul along with the Memorial Stela which holds all the time and history of the Digital World (which has infinite infinite multiverses btw). Any erasure in Digimon, from Imperialdramon to Lucemon, is complete destruction of mind, body and soul.
 
1. Yes, Lumi does keep them from being destroyed.

2. Lumi actively protects his creations, albeit from a point far away. He takes an active decision in deciding what happens in the verse, with characters like Lady and Ao being something like tools for his work. So if we are arguing higher dimensional help (which frankly shouldn't be allowed, but hey, what do I know), Lumi makes this feel a bit one-sided.

3. Send me context for All Delete, if you don't mind. As in the bits where she survived it.
 
So now she has 1-A Immortality. Something never brought up in even one of her fights once.

You mean the parts like, she's still alive as is her concept? You mean the parts where she has tanked complete destruction and resets of the entire Multiverse? The fact that this is why Digimon like her are Acausal in the first place? The fact that she's literally not effected by Particle X. All Delete is on Omegamo's profile. Like how every Server has a Memorial Stela, and the fact that she has destroyed entire Servers with no negative reprocautions?
 
Outside help I thought wasn't assumed to be allowed before. As in, a neutral universe in which concepts were very basic. Otherwise yes, it is incredibly broken since we, news to me, do not restrict absurdly higher dimensional outside help. Also it'd be High 1-C. Lowballing and whatnot.

So... your character has High-Godly. Because they tank destruction of the entire realm and EE. Right?

I'd also like to say, Lady is getting a High-Godly CRT, alongside 2-A Vecna and High 2-A Ao.
 
All Delete only makes reference to a guidebook. Got a scan of that, PDF, something similar?
 
Tanking the erasure of an entire realm is not High-Godly. Only if you are destroyed. Which she would not have been.

All Delete is literally on the bottom of Omegamon's page.
 
Ah, thought that was the same thing, that she got EE'd and the realm she was in went bunk.

Yes. A gif showing a little bubble being left behind and shadow elsewhere. But that isn't what is described, so I wanted to see the description that gave it such an OP usage. It's not like I'm not looking at the profiles lol.
 
And Lilith has the same feat of negging that as Yggdrasil? Fair enough.

In that case it comes down to the now apparently accepted outside help factors which shouldn't really be allowed but whatever
 
And uh... I really can't keep this up, gtg for now. You can do your stuff. I will say this is probably the closest Lady match as of right now.
 
Well Ygg flat out regens from that. She survived it with no negative reprocautions

If LoP is technically alive, would the 1-A come to her aid. As in if Lilithmon used her sin of lust and took her over, she'd still technically be LoP, but now part Lilithmon.
 
Interesting question. LoP is an important figure for Lumi as one of the governing factors of the setting. So in theory, yes. It's hard to say because Lumi rarely has actually needed to do this, and never in circumstances like this.
 
There's a possibility that Lumi may show up, as Lumi appeared to Ao, who's possibly slightly below LoP but not by a lot or a dimensional level (also considering Ao's statements are literally LoP's feats) and appeared to speak to him. In the story "Die, Vecna, Die" the DM does take "direct" (I put that in HEAVY quotation marks) as he gets to choose what happens when the Heroes fail:

  • Does Vecna get what he wants and gets to become the new Overdeity / LoP?
  • Does just the LoP survive and she recreates the Multiverse again?
  • Does no one win and it's total anhilation for everyone?
Pretty much, it's down to the DM a lot what happens with the LoP, she's kinda like a Medium for Lumi, to be honest. (Inb5 (yes inb5) argument for LoP to be High 1-B or 1-A appears)
 
The DM being Lumi.

No, LoP is not High 1-B/1-A.
 
it really isn't but I'll ignore that for now
 
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