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The nuking of Undertale: Part 2 out of 6 or 7 | "Faster than Sound? Not even Faster than a car."

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Sorry but Im going to be adding onto what Ayoguys have said as I believe what they said is good but there is more evidence again

1. I feel like saying mettatons quiz electricity is actually real electricity is cherry picking and disingenuous Why? Its because magic in undertale has been shown to come in many different forms the biggest example is undyne with 5 different examples The bridge spears, The other chase spears, The spears you have to block not to mention the one shes holding, Another look for the spears. This isnt just undyne either with Napstablooks tears in Mad dummy battle, And in his own battle. Both functioning and doing the same thing just how mad dummy put it acid rain also with bones Papyrus bones, Papyrus bones 2, also his bones just a bit before this spelt cool dude and was on a skateboard. The damage factor should also not come into the factor because of what ayoguys said meaning theres no way to differentiate that electricity from other electricity attacks or examples besides the fact in that point in time it did blitz frisk which leads me to my next point

2. REINSTATING THE POINT ABOUT THE ELECTRICTY electricity is one of the examples as in ayoguys paragraphs Snowdin puzzle explicitly shocks papyrus, And Frisk, also keep in mind frisk reaction shaking actually immobilized when shocked when we go to mettatons "real" electricity in the quiz It does shake the soul but not as much and it only slows down the soul immensely now compare this to The same more powerful mettaton, and Vulkins attacks different reaction yea but frisk after the metton quiz has the same reaction to electricity in these two examples via puzzle. The tile puzzle not only does frisk just dosent shake like they use too you can even see frisk walking in place on the tile and also walking back while the tile is electrocuting frisk not slowed down nor immobilized like frisk used too

3. A WHOLE OTHER EXAMPLE OF FRISK ADAPTING lasers. Lasers are usually stated to be going at the speed of light and lasers have always been seen Perception blitzing Frisk, just like how electricty used too and also I can tie this in with one of mettatons attacks too This attack perception blitz frisk too once spawned it represents the lasers used completely perception blitzing frisk not being able to see them go down and guess what Frisk later on in the Asriel fight shown such a greater feat it put FtL to shame and gave Frisk immesurable speed with the resistance and out running of the hyper goner attack two times Frisk has been shown to either adapt and be able to dodge a attack that used to blitz them or show a way better feat that makes Faster then Light feel like a joke this also shows consistency both electrity and lasers attacks out of battle in battle have shown to have the same exact affect on frisk and even baseline the same speed with the lasers

4. LETHAL VS NON LETHAL while I do not have more solid evidence against sound I do have to say using gray attacks or the fact shyren sang in the end credits and it produced music notes is also disingenuous gray attacks have always been seen as non lethal nor have any attempts to be fast plus shyrens notes at the end credits It can be seen that it acts differently my case is just like how in this post fire can be used for cooking bones can be used to lure in dogs and almost every magic attack has been seen to defend frisk at the end of the game there is a difference between lethal and non lethal attacks lethal attacks are baseline their respective counter parts ap speed etc as Toriels fire has been shown to have the same and more AP The lasers in mettaton ex's battle has shown the exact same speed as the real lasers and so as electricity when frisk actually was slower then electricity in snowdin and mettatons quiz then the rest of hotland and Tile puzzle aswell as Mettaton ex's battle and non lethal magic attacks used for cooking with fire luring in dogs with bones using your magic attacks to defend using grey attacks all examples of magic attacks not needing their counterparts speed but still keeping other attributes of their real counterparts

5. SHOWING EXAMPLES OF FRISK ENTERTAINING PUZZLES why I believe Frisk was just entertaining the tile puzzle is that Frisk does the same for everything in pacifist and neutral route the biggest example is snowdin puzzle Frisk waits for Papyrus to explain everything and to put the ball on their head but in genocide Frisk moves without caring. More examples of Frisk not playing along like they do in pacifist and neutral like Frisk not hiding behind the lamp, And Frisk not listening to papyrus. There is just these canonical proven times where Frisk could have just chosen not too or move foward anyways yet still accepted and played along in pacifist and neutral its in their nature so even though frisk was not affected by the electricty in the tile puzzle Frisk played along and realized thats a tile they need to go back for relating to their lack of reaction and no slowing down or imobilization when shocked by the tile

Since there was nothing added and its been inactive I decided to post my gripes I have with this arguement along with the paragraphs ayoguys also used
 
Sorry but Im going to be adding onto what Ayoguys have said as I believe what they said is good but there is more evidence again
First message on the forum with quick backing from opposition.

Hmmm. I see.

1. I feel like saying mettatons quiz electricity is actually real electricity is cherry picking and disingenuous Why? Its because magic in undertale has been shown to come in many different forms the biggest example is undyne with 5 different examples The bridge spears, The other chase spears, The spears you have to block not to mention the one shes holding, Another look for the spears. This isnt just undyne either with Napstablooks tears in Mad dummy battle, And in his own battle. Both functioning and doing the same thing just how mad dummy put it acid rain also with bones Papyrus bones, Papyrus bones 2, also his bones just a bit before this spelt cool dude and was on a skateboard. The damage factor should also not come into the factor because of what ayoguys said meaning theres no way to differentiate that electricity from other electricity attacks or examples besides the fact in that point in time it did blitz frisk which leads me to my next point
This actually supports our position rather than refuting it. You are correctly pointing out that magic in Undertale takes wildly different forms, behaves differently depending on the caster, and does not conform to a single unified ruleset. That is exactly what we have been arguing. The diversity of magical expressions you listed is evidence against the idea that any specific magic attack can be assumed to automatically replicate the physical behavior of its real-world counterpart.

The fact that bones can spell "cool dude" and ride a skateboard is not evidence that bones obey real physics. It is evidence that magic in this universe is expressive and aesthetic, which is precisely why we do not grant automatic real-world speed to attacks that merely resemble real phenomena.

The rest really boils down to things OP has already tackled, and Strym already argued for.
 
First message on the forum with quick backing from opposition.

Hmmm. I see.
I'm just that goated
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I'll only send this message, the thread is already 10 pages and mods are barely showing up already.

Not to be rude but outside of the fact that, as Charmander said, most of this was already talked about, the whole thing just goes back to what I said:

"Our basis is an assumption, and the way we defend that basis is by making more assumptions"

The magics being real by itself is an unsupported assumption that we currenly do with 0 proof other than "Toriel's fire is hot, Dogs like Papyrus' bone attacks". From that the wiki just decides to leap in logic to "all magic must be real no matter what" so again, contradictions and stuff like that will hold way more truth than just an assumption and excuse. I'm just gonna say read this message again, I already made this point way more clearly.
Genuinely nothing in the game supports this line of scaling NOR Frisk having Mahoraga level adaptation that is trying to be pushed here just to make excuses to try to tape over the numerous contradictions and inconsistency, nothing more to say cause everything is basically already addressed.
 
First message on the forum with quick backing from opposition.

Hmmm. I see.


This actually supports our position rather than refuting it. You are correctly pointing out that magic in Undertale takes wildly different forms, behaves differently depending on the caster, and does not conform to a single unified ruleset. That is exactly what we have been arguing. The diversity of magical expressions you listed is evidence against the idea that any specific magic attack can be assumed to automatically replicate the physical behavior of its real-world counterpart.

The fact that bones can spell "cool dude" and ride a skateboard is not evidence that bones obey real physics. It is evidence that magic in this universe is expressive and aesthetic, which is precisely why we do not grant automatic real-world speed to attacks that merely resemble real phenomena.

The rest really boils down to things OP has already tackled, and Strym already argued for.
Id say its against your arguement if magic in undertale if it is too expressive and dosent follow a real world moveset then you dont have the arguement to selectively choose the mettaton quiz electricity as real when dismissing all the others

The OP post reject magic being equivalent to their real world arguements but then relies on it to downscale if its too inconsistent like you say it is then its also too inconsistent to use the same electricity as a downscale

The main thing is that it isnt just mainly about appearnce there is a patter frisk is overwhelmed by electricity (snowdin and the quiz) and lasers core hot land and then also in mettatons ex battle then for later showings for electricity it shows no effect like with vulkin mettaton EX but the most damning peice is the puzzle and then with lasers it goes from perception blitzed to being able to keep up with alot stronger and faster attacks or the speed needing to avoid said attack like hyper goner

Even if you try to say that these attacks are not equal to said real world equivalents there are two show casings of electricity snowdin and Tile where one puzzle you are actually immobilized and shaking the other you are not shaking and even move while its shocking you

It is consistent that progression of frisk getting stronger and faster overtime is shown through attacks and out of battle showcasings getting powerful enough to show no reaction to electricity just using out of battle evidence


I do not know which points have already been argued as I looked through the list and didnt see much of what I said in there I could have missed it
 
you dont have the arguement to selectively choose the mettaton quiz electricity as real when dismissing all the others
Mettaton is a robot, having access to batteries and realistic electricity follows basic logic.

Can we please not extend this for another 5 pages, we've tackled all of this before.
 
I'll only send this message, the thread is already 10 pages and mods are barely showing up already.

Not to be rude but outside of the fact that, as Charmander said, most of this was already talked about, the whole thing just goes back to what I said:

"Our basis is an assumption, and the way we defend that basis is by making more assumptions"

The magics being real by itself is an unsupported assumption that we currenly do with 0 proof other than "Toriel's fire is hot, Dogs like Papyrus' bone attacks". From that the wiki just decides to leap in logic to "all magic must be real no matter what" so again, contradictions and stuff like that will hold way more truth than just an assumption and excuse. I'm just gonna say read this message again, I already made this point way more clearly.
Genuinely nothing in the game supports this line of scaling NOR Frisk having Mahoraga level adaptation that is trying to be pushed here just to make excuses to try to tape over the numerous contradictions and inconsistency, nothing more to say cause everything is basically already addressed.
Look Frisk dosent have mahorage adaptation thats not what im saying but you cant deny outside of in battle attacks the snowdin puzzle and Tile puzzle has clearly and visually that Frisk does not have the same reaction especially with the fact that in Snowdin while they were getting electrocuted they couldnt move and then in the tile puzzle they moved while getting shocked there is visibly a distinction between the two

Determination has always been accepted and shown the more you have of it the more powerful you are its how undyne the undying went against a geno frisk its how omega flowey overpowered pacifist frisk why frisk does not have the same reaction is not adaptation I was using adapt as just a term but more determination means you are more powerful and faster

While magic and the real world equivalence isnt required for my arguement its still worth noting that magic electricty has blitzed frisk before in mettatons quiz and even if you dont believe that the magic version of the lasers perception blitz and the real counterpart did the same aswell even if that interpretation is rejected the progression point I stared above still stands due to the fact it is based on actual facts and the real world versions

Mettaton is a robot, having access to batteries and realistic electricity follows basic logic.

Can we please not extend this for another 5 pages, we've tackled all of this before.
Alright again if we use this one attack as actual electricity im sorry if it feels drawn out to you but I feel like you cannot deny the natural progression that is shown outside of battles the electric puzzles is a good representation of this snowdin frisk visibly shakes and cannot move while the voltage is being applied while in the tile puzzle frisk does not shake in the video walks while being on the tile being electrocuted and walked off while being electrocuted you cant tell me the tile puzzle had the same effect that snowdin puzzle has and also for this arguement in specific the mettaton quiz one

I just dont see why there isnt visible progression of frisk gaining more determination over time especially with the evidence OP provided because even in the mettaton quiz one frisk visibly had less of a reaction and could slowly move you go from not being able to move to be able to move slowly and then being able to move freely while being electrocuted
 
Look Frisk dosent have mahorage adaptation thats not what im saying but you cant deny outside of in battle attacks the snowdin puzzle and Tile puzzle has clearly and visually that Frisk does not have the same reaction especially with the fact that in Snowdin while they were getting electrocuted they couldnt move and then in the tile puzzle they moved while getting shocked there is visibly a distinction between the two

Determination has always been accepted and shown the more you have of it the more powerful you are its how undyne the undying went against a geno frisk its how omega flowey overpowered pacifist frisk why frisk does not have the same reaction is not adaptation I was using adapt as just a term but more determination means you are more powerful and faster

While magic and the real world equivalence isnt required for my arguement its still worth noting that magic electricty has blitzed frisk before in mettatons quiz and even if you dont believe that the magic version of the lasers perception blitz and the real counterpart did the same aswell even if that interpretation is rejected the progression point I stared above still stands due to the fact it is based on actual facts and the real world versions


Alright again if we use this one attack as actual electricity im sorry if it feels drawn out to you but I feel like you cannot deny the natural progression that is shown outside of battles the electric puzzles is a good representation of this snowdin frisk visibly shakes and cannot move while the voltage is being applied while in the tile puzzle frisk does not shake in the video walks while being on the tile being electrocuted and walked off while being electrocuted you cant tell me the tile puzzle had the same effect that snowdin puzzle has and also for this arguement in specific the mettaton quiz one

I just dont see why there isnt visible progression of frisk gaining more determination over time especially with the evidence OP provided because even in the mettaton quiz one frisk visibly had less of a reaction and could slowly move you go from not being able to move to be able to move slowly and then being able to move freely while being electrocuted
You can't.

Frisk gets electrocuted but takes no damage.
Later Frisk gets damage but doesn't get electrocuted.

You can't claim this is a matter of strength that separates these two instances. We've literally already discussed this very point before.

I will ask for the last time, if you're not bringing anything new, stop.
 
You can't.

Frisk gets electrocuted but takes no damage.
Later Frisk gets damage but doesn't get electrocuted.

You can't claim this is a matter of strength that separates these two instances. We've literally already discussed this very point before.

I will ask for the last time, if you're not bringing anything new, stop.
You kinda missed my point in that message as I never even brought up damage with two identical situations snowdin puzzle when it shocks firsk makes you shake and immobilized frisk then the tile puzzle when electrocuted you are not immobilized nor do you show any visible reaction to it

Theres still progression in frisks ability to take electric shocks that is what I meant while also trying to make magic being equivalent to the real world versions as a side thing it should also be mentioned that this snowdin puzzle and Tile puzzle papyrus meant to use back to back

Besides that Ive said what I needed too and even if you do not agree thats fine and ill be waiting for the mods votes have a nice day 👍
 
You kinda missed my point in that message as I never even brought up damage with two identical situations snowdin puzzle when it shocks firsk makes you shake and immobilized frisk then the tile puzzle when electrocuted you are not immobilized nor do you show any visible reaction to it

Theres still progression in frisks ability to take electric shocks that is what I meant while also trying to make magic being equivalent to the real world versions as a side thing it should also be mentioned that this snowdin puzzle and Tile puzzle papyrus meant to use back to back

Besides that Ive said what I needed too and even if you do not agree thats fine and ill be waiting for the mods votes have a nice day 👍
Okay just to answer this so you can be clarified and this doesn't turn into an issue in future threads.
There is indeed no "linear progression" without making assumptions.

You first go through the snowdin puzzle where it shocks you, makes frisk go back and deals no damage.
You then go through the quizz where it shocks you and deals damage.
Then next one is Vulkin where you are not shocked and still take damage. (Cause it ain't real)
Tiles is the last one where it is the exact same situation as the puzzle one, with the only difference is, Frisk shakes in the puzzle one but not here.

^ You'd have to tell me Frisk went from being shocked and taking no damage, to being shocked and taking damage, to not being shocked and taking damage, to then being shocked and taking no damage. Does this seem "linear" and "consistent" to you?

"But Frisk didn't shake in the puzzle one"
Yea, because they are immobilized during the shock. Why do you think they can't just keep moving forward after stepping on the yellow tile? Do you think they just choose not to? The yellow tile is indeed doing the same thing as the snowdin puzzle in standards, it's shocking and stopping you from continuing in that path.
And just to put the end on it, even if you think it isn't the exact same, do you know that Frisk being immobilized would actually mean the electricity is affecting them more than if they were shaking? This is because being fully immobilized means the muscles are being forced into the continuous contraction with no release time meaning the body's normal nerve signals are being completely overridden by the higher current of electricity, this would literally even stop blood flow from the tissue and kill you if it continues, shaking would simply mean that current is still strong but the cycle of contraction and release still happens which is why your body is even able to shake. So in reality Fully Immobilizing > Shaking, the point is irrelevant to begin with.


So to actually put what actually happens:

Frisk actually gets affected more by electricity from the quizz and the tiles one by being completely immobilized by the tiles and quizz one dealing damage while the snowdin one was simply a small shock to make them shake and feel it. Meanwhile vulkin's IS NOT REAL ELECTRICITY. (Which is why it's getting wiped)

There is indeed no "progression" and if there were it would be going in reverse lol. All that's happenning is the electricity having different levels of voltage.


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Anyways just need a mod (or mods) for the sound thing really. That's the only thing left for the thread to end as it's 4-2 currently.
 
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Okay just to answer this so you can be clarified and this doesn't turn into an issue in future threads.
There is indeed no "linear progression" without making assumptions.

You first go through the snowdin puzzle where it shocks you, makes frisk go back and deals no damage.
You then go through the quizz where it shocks you and deals damage.
Then next one is Vulkin where you are not shocked and still take damage. (Cause it ain't real)
Tiles is the last one where it is the exact same situation as the puzzle one, with the only difference is, Frisk shakes in the puzzle one but not here.

^ You'd have to tell me Frisk went from being shocked and taking no damage, to being shocked and taking damage, to not being shocked and taking damage, to then being shocked and taking no damage. Does this seem "linear" and "consistent" to you?
Ok first damage again? Frisk has tooken falls shocks out of battle but takes no damage you know what does damage you attacks that attack the soul the best example is when undyne throws spears out of you out of battle and when you get hut instead of getting hit or just taking damage you get put in battle where a bunch of spears that isnt the same count as before try to attack your soul.

What is consistent is reaction using your own examples in snowding Frisk is shaking and actually unable to move while being shocked then in mettatons quiz frisks soul is directly electrified it shakes but not as much and is slowed down immensely and then in the tile puzzle frisk moves back while the tile is still electrifying frisk no proof of actual immoblization which brings me to the main thing
"But Frisk didn't shake in the puzzle one"
Yea, because they are immobilized during the shock. Why do you think they can't just keep moving forward after stepping on the yellow tile? Do you think they just choose not to? The yellow tile is indeed doing the same thing as the snowdin puzzle in standards, it's shocking and stopping you from continuing in that path.
And just to put the end on it, even if you think it isn't the exact same, do you know that Frisk being immobilized would actually mean the electricity is affecting them more than if they were shaking? This is because being fully immobilized means the muscles are being forced into the continuous contraction with no release time meaning the body's normal nerve signals are being completely overridden by the higher current of electricity, this would literally even stop blood flow from the tissue and kill you if it continues, shaking would simply mean that current is still strong but the cycle of contraction and release still happens which is why your body is even able to shake. So in reality Fully Immobilizing > Shaking, the point is irrelevant to begin with.


So to actually put what actually happens:

Frisk actually gets affected more by electricity from the quizz and the tiles one by being completely immobilized by the tiles and quizz one dealing damage while the snowdin one was simply a small shock to make them shake and feel it. Meanwhile vulkin's IS NOT REAL ELECTRICITY. (Which is why it's getting wiped)

There is indeed no "progression" and if there were it would be going in reverse lol. All that's happenning is the electricity having different levels of voltage.


---


Anyways just need a mod (or mods) for the sound thing really. That's the only thing left for the thread to end as it's 4-2 currently.
With just this quote you try summarizing my arguement because not only did frisk not shake but frisk legit moved while being hit with this "immoblizing electricity" when frisk moved back especially if you slow it down the tile never stops electrifying you until you step off if it was actual immoblizing electricity frisk wouldn't be able to do this

You are saying im making assumptions when there is a clear distinct reaction from snowdin puzzle to tile puzzle alone and in your own sentence "When Frisk steps on one of them in the Mettaton sequence we see that it completely immobilizes Frisk upon contact and makes them have to step back" So you are saying frisk is being hit with immoblizing electricity so frisk had to move back? Thats not how immobilization works
 
I think I agree with OP, but having to read the rest of the pages sucked the life out of me.
 
What are best feats that UT now has?(Only evaled ones). So we could find to what ratings should downgrade
 
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