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The nuking of Undertale: Part 2 out of 6 or 7 | "Faster than Sound? Not even Faster than a car."

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TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Yeah actually, since it doesn’t weigh a lot it probably can’t. Also, there is no difference in HP damage regardless on whether Asgore does it faster or slower, which I remember was accepted as definitive evidence against KE usage in the 1/7th nuking of Undertale.
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Yes, and this is arguments for using 1 frame timeframe.
To reiterate: animation for "normal" Asgore attacks take 5 frames. A bit "faster" ones(appear later in the fight) take 3 frames. In both cases actual damage occurs in first frame, and damage is identical.
If we assume that actual timeframe for swinging is equal to animation timeframe(5 and 3 frames) we have situation, where faster attacks don't do more damage(which is contradiction).
But if we assume that actual movement took 1 frame in both cases, both of variations of the attack are equal in speed, thus there is no contradiction. Animation taking lesser time for "faster" attacks is just visual change, that allows for faster firing of the attack.

Also, why did bring up Hazbin with Shok.wav calc? I assure you that if we would see
a) That Alastor was in Shok.wav mouth by 3 frame, and
b) some Shok.wavs(clearly meant to be his afterimages) reaching him only after 10 frame
there would be no questions of how much time it actually took for shark to reach Alastor.

Made my own Asgore calc, based on @Edutyn works, since they are busy for now:
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm kind of divided, not sure about electricity being lightning as Agnaa pointed out some important details, but I think the sound waves examples Strym seems right. Also, in the last Undertale thread I remember participating in, I recalled the Zapper related feats being blatant. And I have since not sure what happened to feats related to them.
Click to expand...
Mentioning Deltarune just because it's a parallel universe makes the thread impossible because, first, both games have blatantly different mechanics.

And the magic from Deltarune comes from an imaginary dimension of darkness, not from the soul of living things, you can hardly call that comparable. It's a different magic altogether.

Also, this is unfair because it forces OP to debunk two verses at the same time. As, if he tries to debunk Undertale, Deltarune will be used as a counter. And if he tries to debunk Deltarune (this IS in their plans), one can use Undertale to counter. It forces both to be debunked at the same time.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Mentioning Deltarune just because it's a parallel universe makes the thread impossible because, first, both games have blatantly different mechanics.

And the magic from Deltarune comes from an imaginary dimension of darkness, not from the soul of living things, you can hardly call that comparable. It's a different magic altogether.

Also, this is unfair because it forces OP to debunk two verses at the same time. As, if he tries to debunk Undertale, Deltarune will be used as a counter. And if he tries to debunk Deltarune (this IS in their plans), one can use Undertale to counter. It forces both to be debunked at the same time.
Click to expand...
Agnaa already clarified that part, there is no need to discuss that further.
 
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
I didn't know where else to bring the video up though...
Click to expand...
If you need to, do it here. That's the general discussion thread for UT/DR and it wouldn't be hijacking a CRT's discussion just to talk about a video. Sorry for being harsh, but this thread is filled with 80% unrelated messages.
 
so at the start at snowdin when you get electrocuted by the ball you actively shake and just cannot move foward with the papyrus puzzle but for the mettaton one not only does it seem to show more of a voltage (the fact that the pressure plate is actively like turning into spikes showing a strong electrical current) frisk shows zero to no reaction to this besides just stepping backwards off of it the fact that frisk needs to do that and it dosent stop electrocuting you until you do is important plus if the electricity that is shown from the mettatons quiz is real electricity why dosent mettaton use that more often? Especially in a more powerful frisk has shown to be barely affected by electricity in these moments and only takes damage by the magic ones plus the fact you only encounter these electric attacks after first meeting mettaton!! So frisk goes from snowdin being completely stopped -> to slow downed immensely by mettatons shock attack to quiz -> then vulkins lighting that you can actively dodge and not get slowed down by then the puzzle while yes frisk does stop frisk dosent look to be actually phased by this electricity and steps back while getting electrocuted seen by the images if frisk was immobilized or stopped frisk shouldn't be able to do this or if frisk was slowed down you'd see them slow down the statement that frisk is affected by this and im turn still gets blitzed by electricity at this time cant stand or this evidence intact to actually downscale frisk I feel like this is just a showing that frisk gets resistance or just stronger over time actively in game plus I feel like the magic having a higher ap then the real counterpart should support having more speed when actually directed to kill like in mettaton ex fight but that could just be me it just feels like even outside of battle from snowdin to Hotland it shows resistance to electrical shocks at the least plus the fact that they used the fact that mettaons first encounter they got affected by somehow "actual" electricity or a shock at this time also the fact it does more damage is also inconsistent because in the quiz it always does half your hp so if you had 100 it would do 50 and in the same video it does 10 and then it does 5 and vulkins does 8? I think from wiki and can go up to 10 if you hug it and of course if you get more armor over time the damage becomes less too
 
Qurbonboev said:
Yes, and this is arguments for using 1 frame timeframe.
To reiterate: animation for "normal" Asgore attacks take 5 frames. A bit "faster" ones(appear later in the fight) take 3 frames. In both cases actual damage occurs in first frame, and damage is identical.
If we assume that actual timeframe for swinging is equal to animation timeframe(5 and 3 frames) we have situation, where faster attacks don't do more damage(which is contradiction).
But if we assume that actual movement took 1 frame in both cases, both of variations of the attack are equal in speed, thus there is no contradiction. Animation taking lesser time for "faster" attacks is just visual change, that allows for faster firing of the attack.
Click to expand...
This just seems like the most wanky way interpretation I've ever seen. Somehow even assuming the attack uses KE is already absurd but the fact that the way of evading the KE rules being against it is assuming it takes 1 frame despite everything already showed to me is insane.

Qurbonboev said:
Made my own Asgore calc, based on @Edutyn works, since they are busy for now:
Click to expand...
Nothing changed from me, still think this is insanely wrong via the reasons I already said here (minus the way of getting Asgore's height)
I much prefer Edutyn's calc way in the low-end.

CGMs still haven't talked about it though.

AyOgUyS said:
so at the start at snowdin when you get electrocuted by the ball you actively shake and just cannot move foward with the papyrus puzzle but for the mettaton one not only does it seem to show more of a voltage (the fact that the pressure plate is actively like turning into spikes showing a strong electrical current) frisk shows zero to no reaction to this besides just stepping backwards off of it the fact that frisk needs to do that and it dosent stop electrocuting you until you do is important plus if the electricity that is shown from the mettatons quiz is real electricity why dosent mettaton use that more often? Especially in a more powerful frisk has shown to be barely affected by electricity in these moments and only takes damage by the magic ones plus the fact you only encounter these electric attacks after first meeting mettaton!! So frisk goes from snowdin being completely stopped -> to slow downed immensely by mettatons shock attack to quiz -> then vulkins lighting that you can actively dodge and not get slowed down by then the puzzle while yes frisk does stop frisk dosent look to be actually phased by this electricity and steps back while getting electrocuted seen by the images if frisk was immobilized or stopped frisk shouldn't be able to do this or if frisk was slowed down you'd see them slow down the statement that frisk is affected by this and im turn still gets blitzed by electricity at this time cant stand or this evidence intact to actually downscale frisk I feel like this is just a showing that frisk gets resistance or just stronger over time actively in game plus I feel like the magic having a higher ap then the real counterpart should support having more speed when actually directed to kill like in mettaton ex fight but that could just be me it just feels like even outside of battle from snowdin to Hotland it shows resistance to electrical shocks at the least plus the fact that they used the fact that mettaons first encounter they got affected by somehow "actual" electricity or a shock at this time also the fact it does more damage is also inconsistent because in the quiz it always does half your hp so if you had 100 it would do 50 and in the same video it does 10 and then it does 5 and vulkins does 8? I think from wiki and can go up to 10 if you hug it and of course if you get more armor over time the damage becomes less too
Click to expand...
I said I would wait for mods but (not tryna be rude) I genuinely am confused on what point you did here, can you clarify better please?

This works as a mini bump as well ig
 
I have read the OP, the summary post (and what it links to) provided by GodlyCharmander, as well as the responses of the individual staff members.

My end opinion is complicated, so I'll rephrase it at the end.

Of the two sources of speed, I think I'd be more comfortable with sound-based scaling being used. Lightning scaling is obviously really questionable no matter how you slice it. Even if some of what the OP says isn't entirely presented in a way I would agree with, I find it difficult to reach a point, mentally, where lightning speed would be acceptable. Sound is more nuanced and usable, but ultimately I think I agree more with the interpretation that this stylization is just how they use magic, than that the barks are literally sound being formed into an attack. I think it is easier to say "every attack seems to be some appropriate shaping of magic" rather than these attacks literally having the qualities attributed to the things they are shaped after.

I think many of the arguments are sort of irrelevant compared to this core issue. I haven't seen a good reason to consider magic a direct parallel to the things it looks like. That this is also just not the base assumption is further problematic.

So. I vote in favor of the OP, essentially.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I have read the OP, the summary post (and what it links to) provided by GodlyCharmander, as well as the responses of the individual staff members.

My end opinion is complicated, so I'll rephrase it at the end.

Of the two sources of speed, I think I'd be more comfortable with sound-based scaling being used. Lightning scaling is obviously really questionable no matter how you slice it. Even if some of what the OP says isn't entirely presented in a way I would agree with, I find it difficult to reach a point, mentally, where lightning speed would be acceptable. Sound is more nuanced and usable, but ultimately I think I agree more with the interpretation that this stylization is just how they use magic, than that the barks are literally sound being formed into an attack. I think it is easier to say "every attack seems to be some appropriate shaping of magic" rather than these attacks literally having the qualities attributed to the things they are shaped after.

I think many of the arguments are sort of irrelevant compared to this core issue. I haven't seen a good reason to consider magic a direct parallel to the things it looks like. That this is also just not the base assumption is further problematic.

So. I vote in favor of the OP, essentially.
Click to expand...
I think it's important to point out that those feats are being calculated and indexed as electricity, not lightning. The calcs are ~1200 times lower than they would be if lightning was used.
 
Rodriiogo said:
assuming it takes 1 frame despite everything already showed to me is insane.
Click to expand...
Evidence you guys presented for it not being 1 frame thing are pretty weak. Like, I don't care what you guys find out in the code (prolly not even Toby understands how it works atp), what happens and shown ingame is always more important. And game clearly shows it as 1 frame thing.

Rodriiogo said:
Nothing changed from me, still think this is insanely wrong via the reasons I already said here (minus the way of getting Asgore's height
Click to expand...
Quoting you:
"For some reason, the trident's trail is being used as Asgore's speed. Asgore himself doesnt move his arms "15.6312292154m". Asgore's hands only move this much. There's a difference between the distance the pointy part of a long ranged weapon will travel and the distance that the wielder himself moves. If I swing my hand without a sword at regular speeds, but then with a sword, if you use the sword's point path, you will get a way higher speed even though I swung at the exact same speed."

Site (AFAIK) rate combat speed of weapon users by how fast they move their swords/axes/other types of weapons, not by how fast their move their hands during it.
Case on point, Chariot speed (and subsequently any other JoJo) is measured by how fast his sword moved, not by how fast his hands moved. If we calced this feat you way, speed would be downgraded to FTL+. You can find plenty of other examples in any other verses where main speed feats are done with weapons.
If you have problems with this, idk, make staff thread.
 
Qurbonboev said:
Case on point, Chariot speed (and subsequently any other JoJo) is measured by how fast his sword moved, not by how fast his hands moved. If we calced this feat you way, speed would be downgraded to FTL+. You can find plenty of other examples in any other verses where main speed feats are done with weapons.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, other accepted calcs do also this (1, 2, 3 or 4)

It'd be a double standard against UT if that's the only verse that does not do this lol.
 
Eh, I think these calcs should be changed (I planned to do the same with Nadakhan calc), since it's only hands that move, your weapon can be whatever big and it doesn't matter. Otherwise it'd imply that the length of the held object magically affects one's velocity.
 
Agnaa said:
I think it's important to point out that those feats are being calculated and indexed as electricity, not lightning. The calcs are ~1200 times lower than they would be if lightning was used.
Click to expand...
A semantic issue, I think, but yeah. Doesn't affect my end opinion.
 
What do we need to move forward? The discussion is pretty much over on both ends iirc, so we should likely conclude the CRT with staff votes.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Isn't @DarkDragonMedeus a "agree with electricity disagree with sound" as well?
Click to expand...
Unsure, will wait for him to clarify on his vote I guess, he was unsure about electricity because of Zapper, and despite me not pointing it out cause I wanted to wait, let me clarify that all the examples for sound are once again from Deltarune just like Zapper. (which is why I didn't reply to those examples, I'd talk about Deltarune when I actually address that verse)
 
I find the arguments in favor of the OP more compelling the those against from the post charmander presented that links to each bit.


I'll say the timer usage is case by case and timers can in-fact be an anti-feat depending on the context especially when they hold narrative weight.


A lot of other arguments against just also seem to lack concrete statements or evidence it seems
 
Rodriiogo said:
I said I would wait for mods but (not tryna be rude) I genuinely am confused on what point you did here, can you clarify better please?

This works as a mini bump as well ig
Click to expand...


Imma put it into different categories
Frisk adapts over time to electricity to how they take it and how they dodge it. While in Snowdin the first puzzle to actually shock you which can be seen here this shock even shown earlier to electrocute papyrus shakes and actually immobilize frisk for the time the shock is active. Now lets compare it too the next time Frisk gets shocked in the Mettaton quiz with actual “real” electricity (quotes as I do believe strongly that monster electricity = real electricity baseline and disagree that this is any different)

here While using your own logic when frisk got zapped here frisk or at least the soul showed less of a reaction and only got slowed down immensely yes but different from the time in snowdins puzzle. Then after this in the next couple rooms they fight Vulkin where his electricity attacks does none of that no slowdown, no shake and the damage ill tackle later wouldn't matter. While this might be a showcase of monster electricity not equaling real electricity.

I beg to differ as I believe this is a showcase of frisk adapting and growing stronger or atleast a immunity dont believe me? Lets go to the tile puzzle when frisk is shocked by the tile puzzle you say frisk is immobilized and then in the same sentence “needs to take a step back” now lets go even deeper. If we go to that timestamp by just visually looking at frisk has shown no reaction to it like the first two examples and when taking a step back frisk is moving at normal pace. Now go back and slow the video down at no point did the tile stop shocking frisk until they took a step off showing that frisk had no reaction to this electricity and wasn't immobilized or slowed down.

Frisk has no regards for their own life and their speed out of battle should not be used to downscale should not be used to downscale Without having to link anything we should all know throughout the game Frisk does not speed up or slow down for anything and is constantly move at the same speed. Which would be true if said character did not slow down for toriel and speed up for papyrus Frisk has shown to be able to speed up and slow down yet has never done in the Undyne chase and the bombs and basically everytime the OP says Frisk should have or anytime the OP tries using it to downscale Frisk’s speed making it null as Frisk has only ever sped up in battle to dodge attacks for the electricity fire attacks etc and for Toriel and Papyrus showing that this should not be used to downscale frisk and the fact frisk could care less about dying. What im implying is that Frisk entertained the puzzle as we even saw as early in snowdin compare neutral and pacifist to genocide frisk’s reaction to papyrus’s shock puzzle and you can see that Frisk just waits and entertains this stuff its just geno frisk has less patience and the showing of frisk not caring is even more apparent

Lastly how much damage these attacks are doing should be a non factor or looked into whole different arguement In Mettatons quiz the “real” electricity does do 10 damage but if you look further it goes down to 5 to 4 then basically nothing which if taking the damage into factor would make vulkins electricity attack stronger then Mettaton which stats wise should be just wrong. Plus in every instance out of battle being electrocuted being near or putting hand through fire Frisk takes 0 damage even when actually effected which we either could see damage as a non factor or look into the fact that frisk could only take damage from soul based attacks which would be a whole nother argument that isn't related much to this

I just wanted to poke the holes that I saw and share how I feel like this whole nuke feels kinda construed to fit this narrative when instead at looking at everything it just shows frisks ability to grow stronger and faster overtime due to determination and frisks speed shouldn't be downscaled unlike their ap which I also feel like the meteors one should not have been knocked off the list which I might return for that in another time


Edit: Erm wtf happened to the formatting

Edit 2: oh god i made it worse

Edit 3: it’s fixed
 
Last edited:
??? How'd you do this
319a6592e20a.png
 
GodlyCharmander said:
That's 3 votes in favor of removing electricity and sound magic.
1 vote neutral to sound magic
2 vote against removing electricity magic.
1 vote against removing sound magic.

I believe you need to have a 3 vote GAP between valid inputs to pass a controversial CRT.

ELECTRICITY: 3 vs 2
SOUND: 3 vs 1

So sound needs one more, electricity needs two more. It's unfortunate.
Click to expand...
Huh? No. Somebody is the only one against removing electricity magic and there's 4 votes in favor (Armor, Agnaa, Bambu and Dale). Electricity is the one thats done.

Sound is the one thats 4-2 right now as the same agreed but Somebody and DDM both disagreed.
 
Rodriiogo said:
Huh? No. Somebody is the only one against removing electricity magic and there's 4 votes in favor (Armor, Agnaa, Bambu and Dale). Electricity is the one thats done.

Sound is the one thats 4-2 right now as the same agreed but Somebody and DDM both disagreed.
Click to expand...
I forgot about Mr. Bambu despite the fact I was the one who called him, I'm sleepy.
 
Rodriiogo said:
Notice how you acknowledge that despite both being sound based magic doesn't mean they are comparable?
Click to expand...

I was thinking about this earlier and have been reflecting on it for the past few days, and to add to this, I want to point out something that I think has been glossed over in this debate.

Strym has conceded that Shyren's sound-based magic attacks are too unrealistic to be granted sound speed. The justification for that concession, as I understand it, is that the attacks behave in ways inconsistent with how real sound propagates. Fair enough. We agree on that.

Now here is the problem. Greater Dog's bark attack comes from the same fundamental category: a monster expressing magic attuned to its soul, in the form of a sound it produces with its voice.

It's a voice magic.

The origin is functionally identical to Shyren's. Both are monsters. Both are using magic. Both are producing something derived from the sound of their voice. The only argument for treating Greater Dog differently seems to be that the text moves in a straight line and is therefore "more realistic."

I have some unfortunate news about that.

Sound does not move in a straight line. Sound propagates as an expanding shockwave in all directions from its source. A single straight projectile moving toward Frisk is not a more realistic depiction of sound, it is equally unrealistic, just in a different way. Shyren's attacks fail the realism standard by moving incorrectly. Greater Dog's attack fails the realism standard by being a discrete projectile that travels in one direction instead of expanding outward as a pressure wave.

On top of that, we can hear the bark before the text arrives as a separate projectile. If the text were the sound wave itself, hearing it and then dodging it as a distinct incoming object would be physically incoherent.

There is really no practical differences here.

Since the thread has been paused for a lack of activity, I figured it wouldn't be a problem.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Sound does not move in a straight line. Sound propagates as an expanding shockwave in all directions from its source. A single straight projectile moving toward Frisk is not a more realistic depiction of sound, it is equally unrealistic, just in a different way. Shyren's attacks fail the realism standard by moving incorrectly. Greater Dog's attack fails the realism standard by being a discrete projectile that travels in one direction instead of expanding outward as a pressure wave.

On top of that, we can hear the bark before the text arrives as a separate projectile. If the text were the sound wave itself, hearing it and then dodging it as a distinct incoming object would be physically incoherent.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is correct. I had the same thought while reading the discussion. If we use fidelity to real-world phenomena as a standard of comparison, then practically no attack based on “sound” should necessarily possess all the properties of actual sound, given how caricatured they all are.

And well, that reading is entirely consistent with everything written by the OP, since the characters are far too slow to match or compare to the speed of the projectiles. The consistency is overwhelming.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Yeah, this is correct. I had the same thought while reading the discussion. If we use fidelity to real-world phenomena as a standard of comparison, then practically no attack based on “sound” should necessarily possess all the properties of actual sound, given how caricatured they all are.

And well, that reading is entirely consistent with everything written by the OP, since the characters are far too slow to match or compare to the speed of the projectiles. The consistency is overwhelming.
Click to expand...
This is not to say unrealistic sound magic can't be sound speed btw, but we have a precedent of voice magic itself having different speeds while travelling in the same medium, which puts into it question, and stops the general assumption of realism.
 
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