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The nuking of Undertale: Part 2 out of 6 or 7 | "Faster than Sound? Not even Faster than a car."

Status
Not open for further replies.
Tarcaver said:
That contradicts the logic you've used for the Mettaton quiz electricity speed blitzing Frisk then. If we can't move at all after picking a choice whether it was right or wrong then Frisk wouldn't have been able to move to dodge the electricity regardless, hardly a blitz in that case since we're immobile.
Click to expand...
The electricity moves from the finger to Frisk in one frame, it's explicitly faster than our usual speed. Even if I were to concede to this, how would that validate mine or the opposition's point? Mettaton is a machine in the first place, it's hard to even determine if this ray is made out of his soul (monster-generated) or out of his circuits (core generated)
 
GodlyCharmander said:
The electricity moves from the finger to Frisk in one frame, it's explicitly faster than our usual speed.
Click to expand...
I'll agree with this statement. But the obvious intention was that the electricity was paralyzing you (it even forcibly jolts the SOUL around, which doesn't happen if you get the question right, obviously).
GodlyCharmander said:
Even if I were to concede to this, how would that validate mine or the opposition's point? Mettaton is a machine in the first place, it's hard to even determine if this ray is made out of his soul (monster-generated) or out of his circuits (core generated)
Click to expand...
Mostly I was just saying that either A. CORE electricity can deal HP damage, or B. Monster electricity can paralyze.
 
Randomuser3412 said:
A. CORE electricity can deal HP damage.
Click to expand...
Obviously a strong enough shock from the CORE electricity will still deal damage. I'm not saying it's incapable of doing so, I'm saying lower end core electricity can still paralyze Frisk while dealing zero damage. Like the tile puzzle. While stronger monster magic cannot paralyze Frisk in any instance, meaning the difference in behavior cannot be explained by a difference in strength.

This whole argument spawned from Strym claiming "the paralysis from the core electricity is coming from the fact it's stronger than monster magic". Which is not true.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Is this a test?

(No fr I am still typing in the time I have and I have reasons why it can be used, y'all be poisoning the well lmfao)
Click to expand...
If you want to introduce a different verse from the same author to the conversation and has reasons why it can be used, you start by explaining why we're even discussing that different verse and why it's usable before just using it. Don't assume people are on the same page.
 
StrymULTRA said:
...that's in what I am PLANNING to do, stop assuming.
Click to expand...
You have discussed Deltarune in this very thread two separate times BEFORE finally deciding to explain why it's usable, Strym. You know we can see the messages where you do, right? Of course I'm open to your arguments on why it's usable, but I'm not being unreasonable when I point out how you've neglected to explain your position.
 
StrymULTRA said:
You're being pretty much breathing on my neck and pressing me on something I am planning to do anyway, stop doing that as that's just annoying.
Click to expand...
A message is far from "breathing on your neck", Strym. No one is rushing you to do anything, I've simply pointed out how the explanation was supposed to be done retroactively, not post its use.
 
Alright so, not to press anyone here by the way, this is to give my own take on stuff cause I haven't been answering as most of what I wanted to reply to has already been addressed, but there’s one key issue that keeps getting ignored, the whole base of the argument.

To restate it more clearly here's this image of me clarifying it again:
Ap0YS7I.png

The entire premise behind the current scaling is a huge and unjustified leap in logic on assuming that all magic must be exactly like its real world equivalent in every aspect. So the conclusion simply doesn’t follow and is working on an overgeneralization with no backing.
And the issue for most of the counter arguments start from there, the BASIS of the scaling is already weak, as it’s based on an assumption, that is not explicitly supported by the game so the contradictions and anti-feats hold more weigh than they would if the basis of the argument was something firmly established, because those anti-feats and contradictions are actually factually shown to us in the game unlike the assumption-scaling we are doing right now. Most counter arguments are treating this as a "the attack is shown as real, but this one contradiction debunks it." when it's the complete opposite,
There’s no solid reason to assume these attacks are equivalent to the real thing in the first place, while there is evidence suggesting they aren't.
So when I brought up the contradictions and multiple inconsistencies against that assumption, proves that the assumption was never valid to begin with. But for some reason, the counter arguments are insisting that the scaling still works... by stacking more assumptions on top of an already unsupported one. Do you all not see how illogical this is and how much more logical it would be to follow what is actually shown in the game rather than try to keep an entire verse's scaling on speculation and your head-canon?

And just adding some side points for stuff I wanted to answer and have already been answered but I still wanna note:
  • No, just because core electricity exists and behaves like real electricity doesn’t mean the """electricity""" used in battle is the same thing. They come from entirely different sources as one is generated through geothermal energy, while the other is a manifestation of monsters expressing themselves through magic being atuned to their souls. The fact that the two are visually distinct (real one | not real, not real) is already enough proof that the game is making a distinction between the two and showing they don't work in the same way, so treating them as equivalent has no basis, is unsupported, and is, as I said above, stacking assumptions on top of assumptions to fulfill your desire.
  • No, trying to make a distinction between Greater Dog and Shyren just to avoid the proof that "sound magic attacks" aren’t actually sound speed and don't function like sound doesn’t work, cause it's just you going "this one has no contradictions and this one doesn't so they MUST be different despite them working in the same way magically". Just again going back to the issue above, you’re trying to defend one assumption by introducing another, claiming they’re different without solid evidence once faced with issues. The same problem applies to the counters about the "word attacks" by the way.
  • No, you can’t argue that Vulkin's, and especially Mettaton's, electricity has "weaker voltage" just to get around the evidence that it isn't real electricity and it's contradictions, without going over the fact that, again, it's the same underlying problem again of stacking assumptions to protect an initial assumption, the assumption doesn't even make sense and is contradicted. It would mean Mettaton used higher voltage during the quiz segment, where he explicitly says later you were never in danger of actually dying, than during the actual fight, where he’s trying to kill you. That makes no sense, even with the "entertainment" argument because the quizz one... was also an act where as I said you were never in danger of dying. It gets even worse with the puzzle tiles. Those visibly electrocute Frisk but deal zero damage, while Mettaton's attacks deal damage without actually electrocuting them. That shows they're operating under entirely different rules, not varying levels of the same "real" electricity.
That would be my response to everything in-general right now. Zero of the arguments convinced me.
 
Last edited:
Rodriiogo said:
Alright so, not to press anyone here by the way, this is to give my own take on stuff cause I haven't been answering as most of what I wanted to reply to has already been addressed, but there’s one key issue that keeps getting ignored, the whole base of the argument.

To restate it more clearly here's this image of me clarifying it again:
Ap0YS7I.png

The entire premise behind the current scaling is a huge and unjustified leap in logic on assuming that all magic must be exactly like its real world equivalent in every aspect. So the conclusion simply doesn’t follow and is working on an overgeneralization with no backing.
And the issue for most of the counter arguments start from there, the BASIS of the scaling is already weak, as it’s based on an assumption, that is not explicitly supported by the game so the contradictions and anti-feats hold more weigh than they would if the basis of the argument was something firmly established, because those anti-feats and contradictions are actually factually shown to us in the game unlike the assumption-scaling we are doing right now. Most counter arguments are treating this as a "the attack is shown as real, but this one contradiction debunks it." when it's the complete opposite,
There’s no solid reason to assume these attacks are equivalent to the real thing in the first place, while there is evidence suggesting they aren't.
So when I brought up the contradictions and multiple inconsistencies against that assumption, proves that the assumption was never valid to begin with. But for some reason, the counter arguments are insisting that the scaling still works... by stacking more assumptions on top of an already unsupported one. Do you all not see how illogical this is and how much more logical it would be to follow what is actually shown in the game rather than try to keep an entire verse's scaling on speculation and your head-canon?

And just adding some side points for stuff I wanted to answer and have already been answered but I still wanna note:
  • No, just because core electricity exists and behaves like real electricity doesn’t mean the """electricity""" used in battle is the same thing. They come from entirely different sources as one is generated through geothermal energy, while the other is a manifestation of monsters expressing themselves through magic being atuned to their souls. The fact that the two are visually distinct (real one | not real, not real) is already enough proof that the game is making a distinction between the two and showing they don't work in the same way, so treating them as equivalent has no basis, is unsupported, and is, as I said above, stacking assumptions on top of assumptions to fulfill your desire.
  • No, trying to make a distinction between Greater Dog and Shyren just to avoid the proof that "sound magic attacks" aren’t actually sound speed and don't function like sound doesn’t work, cause it's just you going "this one has no contradictions and this one doesn't so they MUST be different despite them working in the same way magically". Just again going back to the issue above, you’re trying to defend one assumption by introducing another, claiming they’re different without solid evidence once faced with issues. The same problem applies to the counters about the "word attacks" by the way.
  • No, you can’t argue that Vulkin's, and especially Mettaton's, electricity has "weaker voltage" just to get around the evidence that it isn't real electricity and it's contradictions, without going over the fact that, again, it's the same underlying problem again of stacking assumptions to protect an initial assumption, the assumption doesn't even make sense and is contradicted. It would mean Mettaton used higher voltage during the quiz segment, where he explicitly says later you were never in danger of actually dying, than during the actual fight, where he’s trying to kill you. That makes no sense, even with the "entertainment" argument because the quizz one... was also an act where as I said you were never in danger of dying. It gets even worse with the puzzle tiles. Those visibly electrocute Frisk but deal zero damage, while Mettaton's attacks deal damage without actually electrocuting them. That shows they're operating under entirely different rules, not varying levels of the same "real" electricity.
That would be my response to everything in-general right now. Zero of the arguments convinced me.
Click to expand...
This framing of the stacking assumptions problem is the cleanest summary of the entire debate so far and should be the anchor of every future response on this topic.
 
It's 8 pages, and out of them, only 3-4 of them would contain actual argumentation relevant to OP, should I do an index post again linking to every major argument?
 

LINKS TO THE MAIN ARGUMENTS TO COMPENSATE FOR THE DERAILMENT:​

Main Opposition: Strym
  1. OP
  2. Strym's first response (Is waiting on the lightning arguments, argues in favor of sound magic)
  3. Rodriiogo's response to Strym¹
  4. My first response to Strym
  5. Rodrigo's first main rebuttal
  6. Strym responds
  7. My first rebuttal
  8. Strym third response
  9. Rodrigo argues more points
  10. My second rebuttal to Strym
  11. Strym responds to both our arguments.
  12. I respond to Strym once again
  13. Strym continues the back and forth with me
  14. My final major response on the matter
  15. Rodrigo's final major response on the matter (until now)


SUMMARY​


ARGUMENTS IN FAVOR OF OP
  • Core Premise is an Unsupported Assumption
    The entire scaling relies on "magic attacks = real-world equivalents in speed".
    There is no explicit statement or consistent evidence supporting this.
    Therefore, contradictions outweigh the assumption by default.

  • Overgeneralization Fallacy
    Some magic sharing properties with real elements does not justify all magic matching real physics.
    Conclusion does not logically follow from premise.

  • Evading Punches Rule Violation
    Calculations scale characters faster than their own attacks from comparable opponents.
    This invalidates the speed calcs independently of other issues.





  • Acceleration Contradicts Real Physics
    Electric attacks accelerate in open air at fixed rates.
    Real electricity does not behave this way.
    Fails established lightning/electricity standards.

  • No Positive Evidence for Real Electricity Behavior
    No:
    • Statements
    • Consistent properties
    • Natural propagation behavior

    Only assumptions.

  • Sound Attacks Are Also Assumptions
    Greater Dog "barks":
    • Assumed to be sound due to origin
    • No proof they are sound waves


  • Shyren Contradiction
    Music-note attacks:
    • Visibly slow
    • Move inconsistently
    • Do not follow sound propagation

    Undermines "sound = sound speed" logic.

  • Burden of Proof Reversal
    Pro-scaling side assumes realism by default.
    Correct approach requires proving real-world equivalence first.


  • Consistency with Low Speeds
    Evidence supports subsonic scaling:

ARGUMENTS AGAINST OP

  • End Product Matters More Than Source
    Even if sources differ (magic vs geothermal),
    if functionality is identical, equivalence is justified.

  • Common Fiction Standard
    Many verses treat magical elements as real counterparts without detailed physics.
    Undertale should not be held to stricter standards.


  • Magic Control Does Not Invalidate Nature
    Characters can control elements (fire, light, etc.) in fiction.
    Control does not mean the element stops being what it is.

  • Analogy to Light Manipulation
    Light can be manipulated in fiction yet still be lightspeed.
    Same logic applies to electricity.

  • Different Voltage Explanation
    Differences in behavior explained by:
    • Varying intensity
    • Stronger vs weaker forms

    Quiz electricity = stronger version.

  • Mettaton Holding Back
    He prioritizes entertainment.
    Avoids using instant-win attacks repeatedly.
    Explains inconsistency in attack potency.

  • Tile Puzzle Is Not a Speed Anti-Feat
    Frisk is hit at point-blank range.
    No opportunity to dodge.
    Does not prove slower speed.

  • Timers Are Not Reliable
    Many games use unrealistic timers.
    Examples: Dragon Ball, JoJo, Sonic.
    Timers should not override scaling.

  • Sound Attacks Are Intuitively Sound
    Greater Dog produces "barks", which are sounds.
    Natural interpretation is sound-based attack.

  • Shyren Not Comparable
    Her notes are stylistic, not literal sound waves.
    Different context from barking.

  • Artistic Representation Argument
    Visual inconsistencies are stylistic choices.
    Not meant to represent exact physics.

  • Narrative Intent Over Visuals
    Author likely intended attacks to represent real elements.
    Imperfect depiction should not override intent.

  • Cross-Verse Consistency Argument
    Other fictional works allow similar scaling.
    Applying stricter rules to Undertale creates inconsistency.

  • Magic Enhances, Not Replaces Physics
    Magic modifies behavior but does not erase the base nature of elements.
    Electricity remains electricity, even if controlled.

  • Same source argument
    Strym claims both Core electricity and monster electricity are the same because both are "magic." He rejects separating them into categories and treats the distinction as unnecessary.

  • Compatibility with human tech
    He argues magical electricity must behave like real electricity because it powers human technology in the Underground, so equivalence is implied without needing deeper proof.

  • Control does not negate nature
    He maintains that even if Mettaton controls the attacks, this does not stop them from being real electricity. Magic control is framed as enhancement, not replacement of natural properties.

  • Scatter vs real lightning
    He argues Mettaton’s attacks spreading outward is closer to how real electricity disperses, contrasting with "real" electricity in-game that always hits Frisk directly.

  • "Same magic" simplification
    He insists all electricity types should be treated the same because they originate from magic tied to monster physiology, rejecting the need for separate pipelines.

  • Voltage explanation
    He defends differences in damage (quiz vs fight vs tiles) as voltage variation. The quiz attack halves HP by design, and stops early to avoid killing Frisk.

  • Overworld damage dismissal
    He claims overworld electricity doing zero damage is a gameplay limitation or programming constraint, not evidence of different behavior.

  • Fire analogy
    He compares electricity to fire used by characters like Toriel and Asgore. Control over shape or pattern does not make it "not real fire," so the same should apply to electricity.

  • DR as supporting context
    He argues Undertale and Deltarune share the same magic system, so Deltarune examples (like sound attacks) can support Undertale interpretations.

  • Greater Dog vs Shyren distinction
    He claims Greater Dog’s bark is more straightforwardly sound, while Shyren’s notes are abstract. Therefore, they should not be grouped together.

  • Denial of assumption claim
    He rejects that his position is assumption-based, stating there is enough in-game context to treat magical electricity as equivalent to real electricity.

  • Core replication idea
    He suggests Alphys could replicate Core electricity through magic, making the distinction between sources unnecessary.





I skimmed through some of the arguments linked, tell me if I've missed literally anything.
 
Last edited:
Edutyn said:
Corrected asgore calc (please tell me this is the last time i have to correct anything that thing is killing me 😭)

Anyways, i will be busy for the next 2/3 weeks so i won't will be able to spent much time on the wiki
Click to expand...
Edutyn: I hope I cooked with this calc
Me

Jokes aside, it just needs some adjustments and changes. Since you would be busy, can I just borrow it and do it myself?
 
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
Well, AP is also one of the topics, especially considering that all of the monster souls combined actually equates to over 6 human SOULs
Click to expand...
Not really. Besides, even if we were talking about AP, the AP of a human SOUL scaling to 1/6th of the monster population instead of the stated 1 would need discussed in a CRT of its own. Stop derailing.
GodlyCharmander said:

LINKS TO THE MAIN ARGUMENTS TO COMPENSATE FOR THE DERAILMENT:​

Main Opposition: Strym
  1. OP
  2. Strym's first response (Is waiting on the lightning arguments, argues in favor of sound magic)
  3. Rodriiogo's response to Strym¹
  4. My first response to Strym
  5. Rodrigo's first main rebuttal
  6. Strym responds
  7. My first rebuttal
  8. Strym third response
  9. Rodrigo argues more points
  10. My second rebuttal to Strym
  11. Strym responds to both our arguments.
  12. I respond to Strym once again
  13. Strym continues the back and forth with me
  14. My final major response on the matter
  15. Rodrigo's final major response on the matter (until now)


SUMMARY​


ARGUMENTS IN FAVOR OF OP
  • Core Premise is an Unsupported Assumption
    The entire scaling relies on "magic attacks = real-world equivalents in speed".
    There is no explicit statement or consistent evidence supporting this.
    Therefore, contradictions outweigh the assumption by default.

  • Overgeneralization Fallacy
    Some magic sharing properties with real elements does not justify all magic matching real physics.
    Conclusion does not logically follow from premise.

  • Evading Punches Rule Violation
    Calculations scale characters faster than their own attacks from comparable opponents.
    This invalidates the speed calcs independently of other issues.





  • Acceleration Contradicts Real Physics
    Electric attacks accelerate in open air at fixed rates.
    Real electricity does not behave this way.
    Fails established lightning/electricity standards.

  • No Positive Evidence for Real Electricity Behavior
    No:
    • Statements
    • Consistent properties
    • Natural propagation behavior

    Only assumptions.

  • Sound Attacks Are Also Assumptions
    Greater Dog "barks":
    • Assumed to be sound due to origin
    • No proof they are sound waves


  • Shyren Contradiction
    Music-note attacks:
    • Visibly slow
    • Move inconsistently
    • Do not follow sound propagation

    Undermines "sound = sound speed" logic.

  • Burden of Proof Reversal
    Pro-scaling side assumes realism by default.
    Correct approach requires proving real-world equivalence first.


  • Consistency with Low Speeds
    Evidence supports subsonic scaling:

ARGUMENTS AGAINST OP

  • End Product Matters More Than Source
    Even if sources differ (magic vs geothermal),
    if functionality is identical, equivalence is justified.

  • Common Fiction Standard
    Many verses treat magical elements as real counterparts without detailed physics.
    Undertale should not be held to stricter standards.


  • Magic Control Does Not Invalidate Nature
    Characters can control elements (fire, light, etc.) in fiction.
    Control does not mean the element stops being what it is.

  • Analogy to Light Manipulation
    Light can be manipulated in fiction yet still be lightspeed.
    Same logic applies to electricity.

  • Different Voltage Explanation
    Differences in behavior explained by:
    • Varying intensity
    • Stronger vs weaker forms

    Quiz electricity = stronger version.

  • Mettaton Holding Back
    He prioritizes entertainment.
    Avoids using instant-win attacks repeatedly.
    Explains inconsistency in attack potency.

  • Tile Puzzle Is Not a Speed Anti-Feat
    Frisk is hit at point-blank range.
    No opportunity to dodge.
    Does not prove slower speed.

  • Timers Are Not Reliable
    Many games use unrealistic timers.
    Examples: Dragon Ball, JoJo, Sonic.
    Timers should not override scaling.

  • Sound Attacks Are Intuitively Sound
    Greater Dog produces "barks", which are sounds.
    Natural interpretation is sound-based attack.

  • Shyren Not Comparable
    Her notes are stylistic, not literal sound waves.
    Different context from barking.

  • Artistic Representation Argument
    Visual inconsistencies are stylistic choices.
    Not meant to represent exact physics.

  • Narrative Intent Over Visuals
    Author likely intended attacks to represent real elements.
    Imperfect depiction should not override intent.

  • Cross-Verse Consistency Argument
    Other fictional works allow similar scaling.
    Applying stricter rules to Undertale creates inconsistency.

  • Magic Enhances, Not Replaces Physics
    Magic modifies behavior but does not erase the base nature of elements.
    Electricity remains electricity, even if controlled.





I skimmed through some of the arguments linked, tell me if I've missed literally anything.
Click to expand...

here’s the main arguments in case yall already forgot (spoiler so that it doesn’t take up much space)
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Strym is writing a response, but it will likely be the last one as well since I don't plan on responding and Rodrigo has already said the main problem here.
Click to expand...
Yeah, now I am. Sorry for the delay.
Agnaa said:
I think it's unfeasible to treat both the strong, blitzing, stunning stuff with completely different animations, and the little bolts, as both being real electricity. But I'm fine with treating the former as such, and giving Mettaton electricity attack speed for that attack.
Click to expand...
Yeah but both are magic coming from the same guy, who happens to be a robot.

Plus, again, you're pretty much stating that normal-ass electricity can always halve with precision one's HPs.
GodlyCharmander said:
Nobody lied.
I explicitly separated
  • Core electricity (one thing) from
  • Monster-generated electricity (another thing entirely)
and explained why they are different.

You brushed it away without engaging with it. You refused to engage in it. You refused to acknowledge the literal smoking gun of the argument.

That is not a refutation, that is ignoring evidence and then claiming the evidence doesn't exist.

The entire body of evidence you have presented for electricity behaving like real electricity is sourced from the Core, which Alphys explicitly states converts geothermal energy into magical electricity. No, ACTUALLY, provide any behavior that originated from monster electricity. Please do it. Just one, go, I dare you.

That is a fundamentally different pipeline from monster souls generating magic attacks. You have not provided a single piece of evidence that connects those two categories. Repeating the claim louder does not constitute proof. The burden is yours, you have not met it, and calling me a liar for pointing that out doesn't change the scoreboard.

Unless you actually fulfill the burden, I will not reply to this again.
Click to expand...
I am "ignoring" because you're pretty much attempting to separate stuff for no reason. It's magic in both cases, why would there be randomly a different type of magic?
GodlyCharmander said:
This argument destroys itself. If Mettaton has full mastery over the magical construct and is weaponizing it with complete control, then the attack's behavior is entirely determined by his magical direction, not by the natural physics of electricity propagating through a medium.

You cannot then use the speed of naturally propagating electricity as a basis for a speed feat, because by your own argument the attack is not naturally propagating. It is being driven by magic. The speed is whatever his magic makes it, which tells us nothing about real electrical discharge speed. You have argued yourself out of the feat you were trying to establish.
Click to expand...
If anything, your argument is self-defeating here.

Naturally propagating electricity never gets aimed to a specific target, it all scatters to reach the point with the least resistance to flow in. In MTT's case it goes away in all directions, unlike the "real" electricity that always strikes Frisk.
GodlyCharmander said:
What is the basis. You have said this multiple times across multiple posts and have never stated what the basis actually is. This is not an argument, it is an assertion that an argument exists somewhere. State the basis explicitly, with evidence, or this carries zero weight.
Click to expand...
I already did say in the big reply I made, you just saying it's not is not a real refute.
GodlyCharmander said:
The overall context is: soul-based origin, emotional dependence, dynamic caster control, acceleration inconsistent with real discharge, replication by a character with no hardware, zero damage in environmental contexts where Core electricity deals damage, and zero positive evidence of real electromagnetic behavior. That is the overall context. Look at it.
Click to expand...
The issue is that monsters SOULs are indeed related to Magic due to these making up their entire physiology, Monsters are noted to even lack physical matter almost entirely because of this. They have to be the same in nature because why would they be different besides those nitpicks? The Underground itself is based on magic due to Monsters being so, if anything what really stops me from argiung that Alphys can just replicate said CORE electricity, given both are magic? Isn't that the most simple assumption instead of just arguing a much more different nature?
Rodriiogo said:
And the issue for most of the counter arguments start from there, the BASIS of the scaling is already weak, as it’s based on an assumption, that is not explicitly supported by the game so the contradictions and anti-feats hold more weigh than they would if the basis of the argument was something firmly established, because those anti-feats and contradictions are actually factually shown to us in the game unlike the assumption-scaling we are doing right now. Most counter arguments are treating this as a "the attack is shown as real, but this one contradiction debunks it." when it's the complete opposite,
Click to expand...
Gotta thank the OP for summarizing his points, replying to the agreeing party is much less tedious now.

Anyway.

It's not really an assumption, there's indeed a statement hinting that magical electricity is indeed around the same as the normal one, given that human electricity also does benefit from it. Can't really assume if you have canonical statements and context to base yourself on lol.
Rodriiogo said:
No, you can’t argue that Vulkin's, and especially Mettaton's, electricity has "weaker voltage" just to get around the evidence that it isn't real electricity and it's contradictions, without going over the fact that, again, it's the same underlying problem again of stacking assumptions to protect an initial assumption, the assumption doesn't even make sense and is contradicted. It would mean Mettaton used higher voltage during the quiz segment, where he explicitly says later you were never in danger of actually dying, than during the actual fight, where he’s trying to kill you. That makes no sense, even with the "entertainment" argument because the quizz one... was also an act where as I said you were never in danger of dying. It gets even worse with the puzzle tiles. Those visibly electrocute Frisk but deal zero damage, while Mettaton's attacks deal damage without actually electrocuting them. That shows they're operating under entirely different rules, not varying levels of the same "real" electricity.
Click to expand...
You're pretty much twisting stuff here, because... Yeah, he did use higher voltage indeed during the quiz segment because of the attack just dealing a fixed damage due to it always halving the HP of the target. If you notice, after reducing your HP to 1, he straight up skips to the question on Alphys' crush which lacks a wrong answer unlike otherwise. Frisk was not not in danger due to MTT holding back, but because of him him ending the quiz earlier if they began to be at low HPs.

Also I think that the electricity attacks not dealing damage just isn't a good argument because Toby at the time did not know how to make overworld damage properly without switching to the battle box like in Undertale (talking of this or this), and an example with the tiles are the water ones where Frisk is explicitly bitten from pirahnas, and they are similairly forced to back off like with the electric ones. It's simply a case of bad programming rather than the electricity being just different in nature for whatever reasons, y'all be just splitting hairs here in my view.
Rodriiogo said:
No, just because core electricity exists and behaves like real electricity doesn’t mean the """electricity""" used in battle is the same thing. They come from entirely different sources as one is generated through geothermal energy, while the other is a manifestation of monsters expressing themselves through magic being atuned to their souls. The fact that the two are visually distinct (real one | not real, not real) is already enough proof that the game is making a distinction between the two and showing they don't work in the same way, so treating them as equivalent has no basis, is unsupported, and is, as I said above, stacking assumptions on top of assumptions to fulfill your desire.
Click to expand...
You are just repeating what is Charmander saying without any real new information.

They are both magic, that's what it matters. Monsters being able to mold said magic does not mean that the electricity stops being real, unless Toriel and Asgore's fire stops being real just because they can mold it to make elaborated patterns. Heck, Mettaton does not even do this, he does not control it in the same way the Dreemurrs do, he just kinda scatters the electricity all around instead of making it move in unrealistic ways.

Anyway, on the sound stuff, I did mention earlier that Deltarune can indeed be used as a precedent for this, and I thought it was obvious, but I'll summarize what was already accepted here:
I am indeed aware that Toby said in the official site that both worlds follow different rules, but that's in reference of contradictory things like Monsters having Determination like Humans or them not being able to use Magic outside the Light World. I just cannot see why magic bullet patterns must be fundamentally different when the visuals and mechanics at play are literally the same by also statements that both share (especially when both are stated to be parallel, so equal stuff must exist for that to make sense). So imo using DR stuff to justify UT elements is indeed fair, given that Toby is also a better programmer ever since making UT, so DR can be used to showcase his real intentions methinks.
Rodriiogo said:
No, trying to make a distinction between Greater Dog and Shyren just to avoid the proof that "sound magic attacks" aren’t actually sound speed and don't function like sound doesn’t work, cause it's just you going "this one has no contradictions and this one doesn't so they MUST be different despite them working in the same way magically". Just again going back to the issue above, you’re trying to defend one assumption by introducing another, claiming they’re different without solid evidence once faced with issues. The same problem applies to the counters about the "word attacks" by the way.
Click to expand...
This is a genuine strawman, I have literally conceded above that Vulkin and MTT's lightning attacks are fundamentally different due to Vulkin's electricity being far weirder in comparison to MTT's.

My argument the entire time was that Shyren's and Greater Dog's attacks are not really comparable just because both are sound based due to the former being clearly too unrealistic to be sound (the way the notes move + how notes by themselves are not really sound, unlike a "Bark" which is much more straightfoward). You also did not really counter my point about why the "word attacks" are just not comparable due to them representing a completely different thing, you cannot just use MTT messing with the dialogue box to dismiss Greater Dog's stuff, it's simply a whole other context.

This is why I believe that "Frisk hears the bark first then dodges the text later" makes no sense, when Toby Fox clearly has displayed that sound itself can be dodgeable later in DR where he got better at it.

Anyway, this is just getting exausting, circular and whatnot, and I just do not have much energy to deal with the n-th time about why Undertale characters cannot be that fast, and I hope this is my last reply to this. This is simply my opinion, and I hope my POV on the matter is understandable.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Yeah, now I am. Sorry for the delay.

Yeah but both are magic coming from the same guy, who happens to be a robot.

Plus, again, you're pretty much stating that normal-ass electricity can always halve with precision one's HPs.

I am "ignoring" because you're pretty much attempting to separate stuff for no reason. It's magic in both cases, why would there be randomly a different type of magic?

If anything, your argument is self-defeating here.

Naturally propagating electricity never gets aimed to a specific target, it all scatters to reach the point with the least resistance to flow in. In MTT's case it goes away in all directions, unlike the "real" electricity that always strikes Frisk.

I already did say in the big reply I made, you just saying it's not is not a real refute.

The issue is that monsters SOULs are indeed related to Magic due to these making up their entire physiology, Monsters are noted to even lack physical matter almost entirely because of this. They have to be the same in nature because why would they be different besides those nitpicks? The Underground itself is based on magic due to Monsters being so, if anything what really stops me from argiung that Alphys can just replicate said CORE electricity, given both are magic? Isn't that the most simple assumption instead of just arguing a much more different nature?

Gotta thank the OP for summarizing his points, replying to the agreeing party is much less tedious now.

Anyway.

It's not really an assumption, there's indeed a statement hinting that magical electricity is indeed around the same as the normal one, given that human electricity also does benefit from it. Can't really assume if you have canonical statements and context to base yourself on lol.

You're pretty much twisting stuff here, because... Yeah, he did use higher voltage indeed during the quiz segment because of the attack just dealing a fixed damage due to it always halving the HP of the target. If you notice, after reducing your HP to 1, he straight up skips to the question on Alphys' crush which lacks a wrong answer unlike otherwise. Frisk was not not in danger due to MTT holding back, but because of him him ending the quiz earlier if they began to be at low HPs.

Also I think that the electricity attacks not dealing damage just isn't a good argument because Toby at the time did not know how to make overworld damage properly without switching to the battle box like in Undertale (talking of this or this), and an example with the tiles are the water ones where Frisk is explicitly bitten from pirahnas, and they are similairly forced to back off like with the electric ones. It's simply a case of bad programming rather than the electricity being just different in nature for whatever reasons, y'all be just splitting hairs here in my view.

You are just repeating what is Charmander saying without any real new information.

They are both magic, that's what it matters. Monsters being able to mold said magic does not mean that the electricity stops being real, unless Toriel and Asgore's fire stops being real just because they can mold it to make elaborated patterns. Heck, Mettaton does not even do this, he does not control it in the same way the Dreemurrs do, he just kinda scatters the electricity all around instead of making it move in unrealistic ways.

Anyway, on the sound stuff, I did mention earlier that Deltarune can indeed be used as a precedent for this, and I thought it was obvious, but I'll summarize what was already accepted here:
I am indeed aware that Toby said in the official site that both worlds follow different rules, but that's in reference of contradictory things like Monsters having Determination like Humans or them not being able to use Magic outside the Light World. I just cannot see why magic bullet patterns must be fundamentally different when the visuals and mechanics at play are literally the same by also statements that both share (especially when both are stated to be parallel, so equal stuff must exist for that to make sense). So imo using DR stuff to justify UT elements is indeed fair, given that Toby is also a better programmer ever since making UT, so DR can be used to showcase his real intentions methinks.

This is a genuine strawman, I have literally conceded above that Vulkin and MTT's lightning attacks are fundamentally different due to Vulkin's electricity being far weirder in comparison to MTT's.

My argument the entire time was that Shyren's and Greater Dog's attacks are not really comparable just because both are sound based due to the former being clearly too unrealistic to be sound (the way the notes move + how notes by themselves are not really sound, unlike a "Bark" which is much more straightfoward). You also did not really counter my point about why the "word attacks" are just not comparable due to them representing a completely different thing, you cannot just use MTT messing with the dialogue box to dismiss Greater Dog's stuff, it's simply a whole other context.

This is why I believe that "Frisk hears the bark first then dodges the text later" makes no sense, when Toby Fox clearly has displayed that sound itself can be dodgeable later in DR where he got better at it.

Anyway, this is just getting exausting, circular and whatnot, and I just do not have much energy to deal with the n-th time about why Undertale characters cannot be that fast, and I hope this is my last reply to this. This is simply my opinion, and I hope my POV on the matter is understandable.
Click to expand...
Adding this to the summary, I'll notify you when I'm done so you can evaluate if it's an accurate representation.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Yeah, now I am. Sorry for the delay.

Yeah but both are magic coming from the same guy, who happens to be a robot.

Plus, again, you're pretty much stating that normal-ass electricity can always halve with precision one's HPs.

I am "ignoring" because you're pretty much attempting to separate stuff for no reason. It's magic in both cases, why would there be randomly a different type of magic?

If anything, your argument is self-defeating here.

Naturally propagating electricity never gets aimed to a specific target, it all scatters to reach the point with the least resistance to flow in. In MTT's case it goes away in all directions, unlike the "real" electricity that always strikes Frisk.

I already did say in the big reply I made, you just saying it's not is not a real refute.

The issue is that monsters SOULs are indeed related to Magic due to these making up their entire physiology, Monsters are noted to even lack physical matter almost entirely because of this. They have to be the same in nature because why would they be different besides those nitpicks? The Underground itself is based on magic due to Monsters being so, if anything what really stops me from argiung that Alphys can just replicate said CORE electricity, given both are magic? Isn't that the most simple assumption instead of just arguing a much more different nature?

Gotta thank the OP for summarizing his points, replying to the agreeing party is much less tedious now.

Anyway.

It's not really an assumption, there's indeed a statement hinting that magical electricity is indeed around the same as the normal one, given that human electricity also does benefit from it. Can't really assume if you have canonical statements and context to base yourself on lol.

You're pretty much twisting stuff here, because... Yeah, he did use higher voltage indeed during the quiz segment because of the attack just dealing a fixed damage due to it always halving the HP of the target. If you notice, after reducing your HP to 1, he straight up skips to the question on Alphys' crush which lacks a wrong answer unlike otherwise. Frisk was not not in danger due to MTT holding back, but because of him him ending the quiz earlier if they began to be at low HPs.

Also I think that the electricity attacks not dealing damage just isn't a good argument because Toby at the time did not know how to make overworld damage properly without switching to the battle box like in Undertale (talking of this or this), and an example with the tiles are the water ones where Frisk is explicitly bitten from pirahnas, and they are similairly forced to back off like with the electric ones. It's simply a case of bad programming rather than the electricity being just different in nature for whatever reasons, y'all be just splitting hairs here in my view.

You are just repeating what is Charmander saying without any real new information.

They are both magic, that's what it matters. Monsters being able to mold said magic does not mean that the electricity stops being real, unless Toriel and Asgore's fire stops being real just because they can mold it to make elaborated patterns. Heck, Mettaton does not even do this, he does not control it in the same way the Dreemurrs do, he just kinda scatters the electricity all around instead of making it move in unrealistic ways.

Anyway, on the sound stuff, I did mention earlier that Deltarune can indeed be used as a precedent for this, and I thought it was obvious, but I'll summarize what was already accepted here:
I am indeed aware that Toby said in the official site that both worlds follow different rules, but that's in reference of contradictory things like Monsters having Determination like Humans or them not being able to use Magic outside the Light World. I just cannot see why magic bullet patterns must be fundamentally different when the visuals and mechanics at play are literally the same by also statements that both share (especially when both are stated to be parallel, so equal stuff must exist for that to make sense). So imo using DR stuff to justify UT elements is indeed fair, given that Toby is also a better programmer ever since making UT, so DR can be used to showcase his real intentions methinks.

This is a genuine strawman, I have literally conceded above that Vulkin and MTT's lightning attacks are fundamentally different due to Vulkin's electricity being far weirder in comparison to MTT's.

My argument the entire time was that Shyren's and Greater Dog's attacks are not really comparable just because both are sound based due to the former being clearly too unrealistic to be sound (the way the notes move + how notes by themselves are not really sound, unlike a "Bark" which is much more straightfoward). You also did not really counter my point about why the "word attacks" are just not comparable due to them representing a completely different thing, you cannot just use MTT messing with the dialogue box to dismiss Greater Dog's stuff, it's simply a whole other context.

This is why I believe that "Frisk hears the bark first then dodges the text later" makes no sense, when Toby Fox clearly has displayed that sound itself can be dodgeable later in DR where he got better at it.

Anyway, this is just getting exausting, circular and whatnot, and I just do not have much energy to deal with the n-th time about why Undertale characters cannot be that fast, and I hope this is my last reply to this. This is simply my opinion, and I hope my POV on the matter is understandable.
Click to expand...
I've done it. It's added to the summary, please verify if it's an accurate representation of your arguments. That's it.
 
Just to answer a specific points that I didn't actually address before:
StrymULTRA said:
Frisk is explicitly bitten from pirahnas, and they are similairly forced to back off like with the electric ones. It's simply a case of bad programming rather than the electricity being just different in nature for whatever reasons, y'all be just splitting hairs here in my view.
Click to expand...
Frisk dodges them before they bite the moment they start coming up:
OMRD7qS.png

--
Now I just wanna highlight how I think you are having double standards:
You agree that your assumption (yes it is still an assumption regardless of what you said) is "well this type of magic that comes from a specific real type of energy that regular attacks don't is shown is real so the applications of it that monsters use must be real as well"
StrymULTRA said:
It's not really an assumption, there's indeed a statement hinting that magical electricity is indeed around the same as the normal one, given that human electricity also does benefit from it. Can't really assume if you have canonical statements and context to base yourself on lol.
Click to expand...
With you even saying this:
StrymULTRA said:
They are both magic, that's what it matters. Monsters being able to mold said magic does not mean that the electricity stops being real, unless Toriel and Asgore's fire stops being real just because they can mold it to make elaborated patterns. Heck, Mettaton does not even do this, he does not control it in the same way the Dreemurrs do, he just kinda scatters the electricity all around instead of making it move in unrealistic ways.
Click to expand...
--
Now read what you say here:
StrymULTRA said:
My argument the entire time was that Shyren's and Greater Dog's attacks are not really comparable just because both are sound based due to the former being clearly too unrealistic to be sound
Click to expand...
Notice how you acknowledge that despite both being sound based magic doesn't mean they are comparable?
And you do it again by the way:
StrymULTRA said:
This is a genuine strawman, I have literally conceded above that Vulkin and MTT's lightning attacks are fundamentally different due to Vulkin's electricity being far weirder in comparison to MTT's.
Click to expand...
So you AGREE that despite being the same "type of magic" they can be different and not be the same, same way that one type of magic can be real and the other doesn't, yet your proof for why the magic attacks are real is "this type of the magic is real so this one should be as well regardless if you prove the other type is visually different, comes from a different source, has specific properties that the other doesnt, and is potrayed different as an attack." (obviously not literally like that, don't say I'm strawmanning, I'm putting the basically idea of what you're saying here)

This does not make sense.
If you agree a "same type" of magic can be real or not, then a type of magic does not have to be real just because another version of it that was especifically created from another source is.
And no don't even try switching this on me with the sound attacks, the whole point is that there's no properties for it being real to begin with while there are very visibly anti showings for "sound magic" not being actual sound, so greater dog is put into question and unless you can show me a statement or proof of it actually being sound, it won't work (goes back to my big message and the first part of the OP)

Either you push that ALL applications of the same type of magic / or magic in general will be real, or admit that just being the same type or "being magic" doesn't mean it's real and you will basically just get to my point if you do so since you can't give me properties for either.

StrymULTRA said:
Anyway, this is just getting exausting, circular and whatnot, and I just do not have much energy to deal with the n-th time about why Undertale characters cannot be that fast, and I hope this is my last reply to this. This is simply my opinion, and I hope my POV on the matter is understandable.
Click to expand...
Considering this part here I think it's better to now just let mods decide. I think both points are clear enough now unless a mod needs any response or clarification for me or the opposition on any of the points I think everything is pretty much already explained and charmander already made a message with a link to every message with every point here.
Will be waiting (of course strym can reply to this message if he wants to, I think I made my point clear)
 
Last edited:
StrymULTRA said:
Yeah but both are magic coming from the same guy, who happens to be a robot.
Click to expand...
Our default assumption is that different things coming from the same character can have different properties. A shared energy system is something that has to be proven, after all.

If a character, utilising magic, creates both a cartoon sun that unrealistically floats 5m from character's faces, and a realistic sun in the sky that changes the temperature of the planet, we can index those differently.
StrymULTRA said:
Plus, again, you're pretty much stating that normal-ass electricity can always halve with precision one's HPs.
Click to expand...
Presumably he's just tuning it down to not kill Frisk.
 
I'm kind of divided, not sure about electricity being lightning as Agnaa pointed out some important details, but I think the sound waves examples Strym seems right. Also, in the last Undertale thread I remember participating in, I recalled the Zapper related feats being blatant. And I have since not sure what happened to feats related to them.
 
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