Tier 2 Requirements and Examples Revision

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If the void is a physical space between the universes and can be moved to and fro through speed alone, then that's an anti-feat. As to leave a contained space-time without any hax or so would mean through speed, and that means it's not a contained space-time to begin with.

Since when did speed + dimension travel became anti-feat for different space ""supposedly"" not being different but same space?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Since when did speed + dimension travel became anti-feat for different space ""supposedly"" not being different but same space?

I said "speed" not dimensional travel
Let me give you an example, whiz could travel through universe 7 and 8 (iirc) through sheer speed. Thats an anti-feat.
Using portals/dimensional travel/teleportation or any hax, is not speed.

False equivalence.
Except for celestial bodies are made of matter and space isn't. They exist in same space at different coordinates.

No it's not exactly false equivalence, while not thr best, it still convenes the meaning.
Time flow on earth is different from time flow around the sun, so effectively they have different time flows.

 

[Agnaa]

The Earth and the Sun are not universe-sized objects with their own separate past, present and future, nor do they have a hint of possessing a structure on the same existential level as time.

I think defining separate space-times based on the size of the spatial regions being declared separate is a horrible way of doing things. But this is just a definition, so I don't think there's much room for discussion.

"Separate past, present, and future" is another argument dude. You cannot justify "Characters can travel between timelines isn't an anti-feat" by saying that other evidence could theoretically exist that outweighs it.

The Earth and the Sun possess time. Time passes on them.

False equivalence.
Except for celestial bodies are made of matter and space isn't. They exist in same space at different coordinates.

That's a good equivalence, because universes separated by voids that are physically traversible exist in the same space at different co-ordinates. It's just that some of that space is occupied by something weird that EEs characters that touch it or whatever.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't understand how you can say that sharing the same space-time enclosure means that they don't share a space-time.

Because the universes and the enclosure are not directly connected to each other like with symbiosis. Same with the book analogy. They are not tethered to each other in anyway, shape or form.

Isn't this also the case with most multiverses in fiction anyway? A container containing a certain number of universes, with each universe being confirmed to be a separate space-time continuum, yet being kept in the same container. Would you still say that these universes are one singular Low 2-C space-time continuum?

I don't know why you think that having 4-D aspects is important. 3-D beings can move around in 4-D space.

Because time is 4-dimensional?

I don't understand what you're saying with "these regions of space are dependent on the core universe itself and are thus under its influence."

By this I mean that if the core universe ceases to exist, so do these regions of space.

Again, you're not tackling my argument. Instead of discussing my reasons for why I don't think sharing a speed of time indicates separate space-times, you respond with "But those realms could be separate space-times for other reasons!"

When did I ever say they share a speed of time? They don't, what do you think "different flows of time" means?

Having other valid reasons does not make the reason under contention suddenly valid.

Since we consider that part irrelevant to the topic at hand we'll leave it.

There's a fair bit to unpack here.

They're contained within the one and the same universal structure: Our words for this are arbitrary. Some people think that our universe, were it to be infinitely large as some people reasonably suspect is the case, could be described as a quilted multiverse. Tossing out the words "universe" or "multiverse" doesn't really matter; what matters is how it fundamentally functions.

Locked under its influence and dependent on it to exist: Things can only influence things that are within their future light cones. There are, in all likelihood, parts of our universe that will never influence us, and we will never influence. The current universe cannot effect the past.

Okay? I wasn't talking about those tiny things, I was talking about influencing entire points in time.

I was responding to your earlier post about the important part being that the space is different. My counterexample is one of parts of space in serious IRL theories that are different. I don't understand how your response is adequately tackling that in context.

Again, fiction isn't going to go 1:1 with said IRL theories, authors don't bother reading up every book on astronomy and cosmological models when they write up their stories.

Here you go again, jumping to a bunch of other topics when i try to nail you down on one.

Right now, in this chain of the conversation, we are talking about whether being able to physically travel to a universe is an anti-feat for it being a separate space-time or not. All this nonsense about "having its own flow of time" and "affecting the fabric of reality not affecting other universes" has no place here. We are talking about the validity of one piece of evidence, not every other piece of evidence that you want to bring up. Stay on topic.

Fine, let's stick to that.

The reason why physically travelling to another universe does not prove that it's part of the same space-time continuum is because that void is not physically directly connected to the other realms nor does it share any of the characteristics, qualities or material composition of said universes

If I am getting this correctly, the void is either just the space between the universes or it is the medium which allows them to travel between the universes.

If the void is a physical space between the universes and can be moved to and fro through speed alone, then that's an anti-feat. As to leave a contained space-time without any hax or so would mean through speed, and that means it's not a contained space-time to begin with.
If It is just a medium that allows travel, then it is fine.

I am not talking about penetrating the universe using hax (Which may or may not be required depending on how the verse operates), I am exclusively talking about the distance between said universes. Normal people can't leave these universes or even enter the void at all without using special gateways, but on the other end of the spectrum, exist a few beings who can do travel within the distance between these realms because of using a special kind of magic that allows them to bypass these restrictions and then travel the space between.

I am explicitly talking about the scenario where the space between these realms exist but the realms themselves cannot be exited through normal means, perhaps I worded my "sheer speed" part wrong, what I meant was, they traverse the empty distance between the universe with sheer speed alone.

 

[KLOL506]

"Separate past, present, and future" is another argument dude. You cannot justify "Characters can travel between timelines isn't an anti-feat" by saying that other evidence could theoretically exist that outweighs it.

That's a good equivalence, because universes separated by voids that are physically traversible exist in the same space at different co-ordinates. It's just that some of that space is occupied by something weird that EEs characters that touch it or whatever.

Guess I wasn't clear enough.

I was talking about the physical space between the universes being traversible. Normal people within the verse cannot travel between realms physically, nor can they enter said void without special gateways, but that said void is traversible if you have knowledge of a certain magic that allows you to travel the distance between the realms in its entirety without getting erased, said energy also allowing the opening of gateways into said realms.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am explicitly talking about the scenario where the space between these realms exist but the realms themselves cannot be exited through normal means, perhaps I worded my "sheer speed" part wrong, what I meant was, they traverse the empty distance between the universe with sheer speed alone.

Now I understand what you mean
They leave the said universe with a special means or hax into the void, then physically travel to the location of another universe and go inside that other universe through a special means or hax too?

 

[KLOL506]

Now I understand what you mean
They leave the said universe with a special means or hax into the void

No, one special gateway is for realm travel (For normal people and other gods, where there is no need to go through the void to endanger themselves), and the other gateway is for the void (But they can't use said void to travel to another realm, they can only fast travel to different locations within the same realm if the gateway exists on the other side). Both gateways however, use the same magic (Bifrost Rainbow Bridge), it's not directly wielded by the people.

then physically travel to the location of another universe and go inside that other universe through a special means or hax too?

That's for the other kind of people (Valkyries) who have direct contact with the special magic (Bifrost magic) that allows them to open gateways but they still need to cover the physical distance between the realms in their entirety first before proceeding to travel into said realms with said magic.

 

[Agnaa]

Blech, I can't keep spending so much time on this thread. I'm gonna have to stop responding to this chain.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I said "speed" not dimensional travel
Let me give you an example, whiz could travel through universe 7 and 8 (iirc) through sheer speed. Thats an anti-feat.
Using portals/dimensional travel/teleportation or any hax, is not speed.

What makes you think dimensional travel cannot be done via speed? If time travel can be done with speed then why not dimensional travel? Its exactly this case.... its just fiction being fiction giving us wacky feats.
Many people have tried giving this kind of speed feat an immeasurable rating, tho standards haven't allowed because it's not wacky enough for immeasurable.
Then there are even more wacky feats when characters do time travel + dimensional travel between two different timelines with speed alone. Sonic characters come to mind.

No it's not exactly false equivalence, while not thr best, it still convenes the meaning.
Time flow on earth is different from time flow around the sun, so effectively they have different time flows.

Okay, but they don't exist in different spaces, so they are not existing in different space-times.

That's a good equivalence, because universes separated by voids that are physically traversible exist in the same space at different co-ordinates. It's just that some of that space is occupied by something weird that EEs characters that touch it or whatever.

What makes you think they are same continuous space fabric?
Can you site such an example in fiction?

Klol is clearly talking about a case where spaces are already different, even if they are embedded in a "hypertimeline" for lack of better word.

The Earth and the Sun possess time. Time passes on them.

They don't possess time as much as they flow in time. Lets not forget who and what is the set and element here.

Space-time or time simply as our standards describe it is a set. Instances of space and state and positions of matter inside them at that instant are elements in that set.

 

[KLOL506]

Klol is clearly talking about a case where spaces are already different, even if they are embedded in a "hypertimeline" for lack of better word.

Yes, exactly.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Blech, I can't keep spending so much time on this thread. I'm gonna have to stop responding to this chain.

I don't think @KLOL506 is still arguing that traveling between universes through speed is not an anti-feat anymore.
I think that much he gets now.

No, one special gateway is for realm travel (For normal people and other gods, where there is no need to go through the void to endanger themselves), and the other gateway is for the void (But they can't use said void to travel to another realm, they can only fast travel to different locations within the same realm if the gateway exists on the other side). Both gateways however, use the same magic (Bifrost Rainbow Bridge), it's not directly wielded by the people.


That's for the other kind of people (Valkyries) who have direct contact with the special magic (Bifrost magic) that allows them to open gateways but they still need to cover the physical distance between the realms in their entirety first before proceeding to travel into said realms with said magic.

So practically no matter the method, some sort of dimensional travel/portal is still involved?

 

[KLOL506]

I said "speed" not dimensional travel
Let me give you an example, whiz could travel through universe 7 and 8 (iirc) through sheer speed. Thats an anti-feat.
Using portals/dimensional travel/teleportation or any hax, is not speed.

Eh, no, not how realm travel in God of War works. At all.

You physically cannot travel between the realms without using the Realm Travel Room, nor can you acces the void (The Realm Between the Realms) from said realms without using the Mystic Gates (The Mystic Gates mostly serve as a fast travel route between locations situated on the same realm, but to do so, it also grants you access to the Realm Between the Realms, which is our void).

The Valkyries can do both simultaneously because they have complete mastery over the Bifrost energy which gives them the ability to open the gateways into the void, but they still need to physically travel the void in its entirety before reaching the other realm and opening a gateway into that using their magical Bifrost abilities. Keep in mind that the Bifrost is also used to operate the Realm Travel Room.

And then, you cannot travel the physical space of the void without the Unity Stone, since not even the Gods are allowed to stray from the path (They will get erased from existence otherwise), but weirdly enough the Valkyries are granted that because of their Bifrost powers. Tyr however, followed his own path using the Unity Stone, which not only has the same abilities as the Bifrost, but also allows inter-pantheon travel.

So practically no matter the method, some sort of dimensional travel/portal is still involved?

Not sure how to word it honestly but to a degree, yes.

Want to travel from realm to realm? Can't do that physically, need the Realm Travel Room powered by the Bifrost, or you need complete mastery of the Bifrost itself (This one opens the gateway to the Realm Between the Realms directly without needing Tyr's Temple at all, but you still have to physically cross the void, the full length, between the universes, before you reach the other realm to be able to open gateways into it), or the Unity Stone.

Want to enter the Void AKA the Realm Between the Realms? Can't do that physically either, you need the Mystic Gates, the Bifrost energy, or the Unity Stone.

Want to travel the empty space of the Realm Between the Realms without getting erased? You need the Unity Stone or Bifrost powers.

No Bifrost or Unity Stone? No Realm Travel or Pantheon Travel, and you can't enter the realms from the void physically without the Bifrost Powers or Mystic Gates or Realm Tower Doors either.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Then I guess it is settled then

 

[KLOL506]

Then I guess it is settled then

So? What's it mean?

The realms cannot be physically travelled between, requiring dimensional gateways to leave/enter realms (Or the Bifrost energy that these dimensional gateways are powered by and operate on).

And the void between the realms cannot be entered without the dimensional fast-travel portals.

And the void will erase anyone who does not have mastery of Bifrost energy, but that void can be physically traversed through to get to other realms using Bifrost energy (Though the realms will still have to be entered through gateways when the distance has been covered).

Basically the only thing that can be physically traversed through is the void, and even that needs special equipment to avoid getting erased.

 

[PrinceofPein]

When is a universe or multiverse destruction tier 2

Here are the considered requirements for when the creation or destruction of a universe/universes is tier 2

Basic requirement - must be a universe sized structure/structure
Then the said feat must fulfill at least 3 of the following criteria.
1. Time was said or shown to be affected
2. Inability to travel to the destroyed universe/universes for time travelers
3. Affects the entire timeline/timelines
4. Each universe-sized dimension destroyed in the multiverse must be its own separate space-time continuum/timeline, free from the influence of other space-time continuums/timelines for their existence
5. You cannot physically traverse the distance across the universes through sheer speed due to them sharing different space-time
6.

Note:- time flowing differently I.e. time flowing faster or slower in different universes is not enough to proof they operate on different timelines, there should be additional evidences such as
I. Destruction of a universe and all its time won't affect the other universes in the multiverse
II. The universes are not connected physically
III.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

sigh

 

[PrinceofPein]

So? What's it mean?

The realms cannot be physically travelled between, requiring dimensional gateways to leave/enter realms.

And the void between the realms cannot be entered without the dimensional fast-travel portals.

And the void will erase anyone who does not have mastery of Bifrost energy, but that void can be physically traversed through to get to other realms using Bifrost energy (Though the realms will still have to be entered through gateways when the distance has been covered).

Basically the only thing that can be physically traversed through is the void, and even that needs special equipment to avoid getting erased.

Pretty much this should not be an anti-feat. What I was arguing was been able to break the barrier of the said realms through just speed and same with agna.
Those realms should be unreachable by the virtue of just physical distance alone, unless you hold ontological difference.

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty much this should not be an anti-feat. What I was arguing was been able to break the barrier of the said realms through just speed and same with agna.
Those realms should be unreachable by the virtue of just physical distance alone, unless you hold ontological difference.

I should also note that the realms occupy the same physical space, that being the branches of the World Tree (Which are infinite in size), and are mirror reflections of each other (Meaning they share the same exact dimensions, shapes and contain the exact same contents, in essence, they're copies of each other), but are otherwise completely alternate planes of existence, they have their own separate flow of time (Time does not flow the same between the realms), affecting the fabric of reality on one realm will not affect the fabric of reality of the other realms (Case in point, Niflheim's Realm Tears threaten the existence of Niflheim only, it doesn't affect the existence of the other remaining 8 realms), and of course, all the other conditions below apply to said realms.

The realms cannot be physically travelled between, requiring dimensional gateways to leave/enter realms (Or the Bifrost energy that these dimensional gateways are powered by and operate on).

And the void between the realms cannot be entered without the dimensional fast-travel portals.

And the void will erase anyone who does not have mastery of Bifrost energy, but that void can be physically traversed through to get to other realms using Bifrost energy (Though the realms will still have to be entered through gateways when the distance has been covered).

Basically the only thing that can be physically traversed through is the void, and even that needs special equipment to avoid getting erased.

 

[Antvasima]

So can you write down explanations of exactly what you think should be done here in single posts, Agnaa and Pain_to12? I can call for DontTalkDT, Qawsedf234, and Ultima_Reality afterwards.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I should also note that the realms occupy the same physical space, that being the branches of the World Tree (Which are infinite in size), and are mirror reflections of each other (Meaning they share the same exact dimensions, shapes and contain the exact same contents), but are otherwise completely alternate planes of existence, they have their own separate flow of time (Time does not flow the same between the realms), affecting the fabric of reality on one realm will not affect the fabric of reality of the other realms (Case in point, Niflheim's Realm Tears threaten the existence of Niflheim only, it doesn't affect the existence of the other remaining 8 realms), and of course, all the other above conditions apply to said realms.

Well this is not exactly a CRT for GOW, but as long as they can fulfill multiple conditions they are fine

 

[KLOL506]

Well this is not exactly a CRT for GOW, but as long as they can fulfill multiple conditions they are fine

GoW having a Tier 2 cosmological structure was accepted years ago in another CRT, this was more so for clarifications.

 

[PrinceofPein]

So can you write down explanations of exactly what you think should be done here in single posts, Agnaa and Pain_to12? I can call for DontTalkDT, Qawsedf234, and Ultima_Reality afterwards.

Well if they have anything they want to add or remove,
Also if they can give more instances when universes are not to be considered to have separate space-time or timelines

When is a universe or multiverse destruction tier 2

Here are the considered requirements for when the creation or destruction of a universe/universes is tier 2

Basic requirement - must be a universe sized structure/structure
Then the said feat must fulfill at least 3 of the following criteria.
1. Time was said or shown to be affected
2. Inability to travel to the destroyed universe/universes for time travelers
3. Affects the entire timeline/timelines
4. Each universe-sized dimension destroyed in the multiverse must be its own separate space-time continuum/timeline, free from the influence of other space-time continuums/timelines for their existence
5. You cannot physically traverse the distance across the universes through sheer speed due to them sharing different space-time
6.

Note:- time flowing differently I.e. time flowing faster or slower in different universes is not enough to proof they operate on different timelines, there should be additional evidences such as
I. Destruction of a universe and all its time won't affect the other universes in the multiverse
II. The universes are not connected physically
III.

 

[Agnaa]

People are suggesting requirements for Tier 2, some of which I disagree with.

 

[KLOL506]

When is a universe or multiverse destruction tier 2

Here are the considered requirements for when the creation or destruction of a universe/universes is tier 2

Basic requirement - must be a universe sized structure/structure
Then the said feat must fulfill at least 3 of the following criteria.
1. Time was said or shown to be affected

IDK, isn't that more of an AP justification than a cosmological appearance description?

2. Inability to travel to the destroyed universe/universes for time travelers

Also sort of an AP feat, doesn't really describe the structure IMHO.

3. Affects the entire timeline/timelines

Same as above, this is kind of an AP feat.

4. Each universe-sized dimension destroyed in the multiverse must be its own separate space-time continuum/timeline, free from the influence of other space-time continuums/timelines for their existence
5. You cannot physically traverse the distance across the universes through sheer speed due to them sharing different space-time

Now these are what I'd use to describe a Tier 2 structure.

Note:- time flowing differently I.e. time flowing faster or slower in different universes is not enough to proof they operate on different timelines, there should be additional evidences such as
I. Destruction of a universe and all its time won't affect the other universes in the multiverse

I believe this would fall under the AP description as well, and possibly Criteria 4

II. The universes are not connected physically

I believe this can be lumped in with Criteria 5.

 

[PrinceofPein]

People are suggesting requirements for Tier 2, some of which I disagree with.

Can you point out any you disagree with?
Do you still disagree with 4?

 

[Agnaa]

Ask me tomorrow. I've been actively discussing this, along with one other thread, with very few breaks for 8 hours.

If you don't know what I disagree with after that, despite me pointing it out and it not being addressed, idk.

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly most of these seem to be AP criteria rather than cosmological structure criteria.

 

[Antvasima]

Ask me tomorrow. I've been actively discussing this, along with one other thread, with very few breaks for 8 hours.

If you don't know what I disagree with after that, despite me pointing it out and it not being addressed, idk.

Oh. I am sorry to hear that. I get very stressed out by that kind of thing. Please try to rest and recover.

 

[PrinceofPein]

IDK, isn't that more of an AP justification than a cosmological appearance description?


Also sort of an AP feat, doesn't really describe the structure IMHO.


Same as above, this is kind of an AP feat.


Now these are what I'd use to describe a Tier 2 structure.

Most will be reworded to fit an AP and cosmology feat, it should not be a cosmology stuff alone.
As it should be when destruction of a universe or universes is tier 2

I believe this would fall under the AP description as well, and possibly Criteria 4

Agreed

I believe this can be lumped in with Criteria 5.

Not necessarily

 

[KLOL506]

Well this is not exactly a CRT for GOW, but as long as they can fulfill multiple conditions they are fine

Also they already do.

1. The realms, despite being mirror reflections of each other, are not physically connected with each other, and despite also sharing the same physical space (The branches of the World Tree, Yggdrasil), they are completely alternate planes of existence. One cannot physically travel between the realms, requiring dimensional gateways that utilize Bifrost Energy to operate, or the direct usage and mastery of Bifrost energy to do so.

2. The realms have their own separate flow of time. Time does not flow the same between them

3. Destruction of one realm means nothing in the long run for the other realms (The Realm Tears, tears in the fabric of reality that threaten Niflheim, only threaten the existence of Niflheim and its fabric of reality alone, they don't threaten the destruction of the other realms. "Fabric of reality" here refers to both space and time).

4. The empty void space between the realms, the Realm Between the Realms, cannot be accessed without a Mystic Gateway or Bifrost energy, nor can the Realm Between the Realms itself be physically traversed through without mastery of the Bifrost energy or the Unity Stone (Or else the Void will literally erase you from existence).

Not necessarily

Remember the part of "You cannot physically traverse the distance across the universes through sheer speed due to them sharing different space-time"? This would be a side effect of the "The universes are not connected physically" criteria.

 

[Agnaa]

After seeing this post from DT, it seems like we define "separate space-times" in a different way than I expected.

This makes a lot of anti-feats that I pointed out not actually anti-feats. While also changing my thoughts on some things being feats.

In short, we consider things to be able to be "separate space-times" even if they share the same axes of space and time; they just need to be misaligned on some other dimension.

 

[KLOL506]

After seeing this post from DT, it seems like we define "separate space-times" in a different way than I expected.

This makes a lot of anti-feats that I pointed out not actually anti-feats. While also changing my thoughts on some things being feats.

In short, we consider things to be able to be "separate space-times" even if they share the same axes of space and time; they just need to be misaligned on some other dimension.

I have no idea what this means LOL.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have no idea what this means LOL.

Basically as long as the space between them is a 5-D space it is possible for two timelines to share the same space and time

 

[Firestorm808]

Can we summarise the current list of clues to look for when Timeline destruction isn't directly shown or stated?

 

[KLOL506]

Basically as long as the space between them is a 5-D space it is possible for two timelines to share the same space and time

You mean hypertimelines?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Can we summarise the current list of clues to look for when Timeline destruction isn't directly shown or stated?

2. Inability to travel to the destroyed universe/universes for time travelers
3. Affects the entire timeline/timelines
4. Each universe-sized dimension destroyed in the multiverse must be its own separate space-time continuum/timeline, free from the influence of other space-time continuums/timelines for their existence
5. You cannot physically traverse the distance across the universes through sheer speed due to them sharing different space-time

You mean hypertimelines?

Nah, normal timelines.
But for them to have a shared space, the space needs to either be a larger 4-D space or a 5-D space.

 

[KLOL506]

Nah, normal timelines.
But for them to have a shared space, the space needs to either be a larger 4-D space or a 5-D space.

Ah. Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Agnaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @AKM sama

What solution do you think that we should use here?

 

[KLOL506]

@Ultima_Reality Wh'rev'r thou art, thy assistance is did need

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality Wh'rev'r thou art, thy assistance is did need

For what pvrpose.