Touhou Speed Scaling

[Myst166]

There's some discourse over how Touhou characters scale in terms of speed, so this thread is being made to work that stuff out.
I am of the belief that most Touhou characters scale at Peak Human to Hypersonic, with some outliers being slightly higher, although I have seen many who disagree, so this thread is for discussing that. The conversation leading to this thread was this one.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

For discussion purposes u should've created this in General Discussion thread and not in content revision. Anyways will ask to move this thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am of the belief that most Touhou characters scale at Peak Human to Hypersonic,

Okay jokes aside you would need to like. explain why the current feats are invalid. We have 4 accepted infinite speed feats, and various speed calcs and statements supporting speeds far in excess of hypersonic (like this one, or an offsite calc for Marisa dodging natural sunlight).

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Are u guys here for proposing? If yes then i should be deleting my post from all purpose thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Idk what they're cooking, to be honest. I thought you would've brought a reason for the feats being wrong, at minimum. Thankfully I've got work soon, so you'll have plenty of time to come up with some arguments.

 

[Quibster]

The conversation leading to this thread was this one.

Not to be rude, but did you read the category and last sentence in the OP of the thread you linked? Just curious because it's an actual satire post.

 

[Deidalius]

How do I send gifs of someone eating popcorn? I'm too incompetent ;p

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not to be rude, but did you read the category and last sentence in the OP of the thread you linked? Just curious because it's an actual satire post.

Well tbf I did tell them to make a CRT, although this is less of a CRT and moreso "here's what I think is correct".

 

[Deidalius]

There's some discourse over how Touhou characters scale in terms of speed, so this thread is being made to work that stuff out.
I am of the belief that most Touhou characters scale at Peak Human to Hypersonic, with some outliers being slightly higher, although I have seen many who disagree, so this thread is for discussing that. The conversation leading to this thread was this one.

I'm interested to hear why exactly you scale them specifically to Peak human and Hypersonic.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

How do I send gifs of someone eating popcorn? I'm too incompetent ;p

Eat cookie not popcorn

 

[Deidalius]

Eat cookie not popcorn

I kneel, you're way more competent at technology than me.

VegetaKneelingToBeerus.GIF

 

[Myst166]

For discussion purposes u should've created this in General Discussion thread and not in content revision. Anyways will ask to move this thread.

Oh, sorry about that. do you know how?
like is there a way to properly move it or do i just scrap this thread and make a new one

 

[Myst166]

Not to be rude, but did you read the category and last sentence in the OP of the thread you linked? Just curious because it's an actual satire post.

And yeah, I did. It just became a proper conversation, so it was suggested that it be moved to a different thread.

 

[Myst166]

I'm interested to hear why exactly you scale them specifically to Peak human and Hypersonic.

Peak Human is where we can place a decent chunk of the characters, as they don't have any massive speed feats. Up to Hypersonic is because Remilia, one of the faster characters in the verse, had a feat that can comfortably scale at Hypersonic (we know the distance she travelled but not the time it took her, she's between Supersonic and High Hypersonic+ depending on how you wanna look at it).

 

[Deidalius]

Peak Human is where we can place a decent chunk of the characters, as they don't have any massive speed feats. Up to Hypersonic is because Remilia, one of the faster characters in the verse, had a feat that can comfortably scale at Hypersonic (we know the distance she travelled but not the time it took her, she's between Supersonic and High Hypersonic+ depending on how you wanna look at it).

You mean that time she flew around the moon in a few panels?

 

[Myst166]

You mean that time she flew around the moon in a few panels?

Yeah, that one.

 

[Deidalius]

Yeah, that one.

I see, well if you want to change the speed of Touhou characters in this wiki you have to...
-Use the logic and standards of this wiki
-Prove why your speed meta fits the rules of this wiki more than the current meta
-Debunk the Superluminal and Infinite speed feats, or do a Mario and say they're all inconsistent because of anti-feats
-Argue with Touhou supporters for days and hours

Right now you're just showing how you believe Touhou scales, not really showing where Touhou should scale according to this wiki nor debunking their arguments. I suggest that if you truly want to change the speed ratings on this wiki, you look at all the superluminal/infinite speed feats, and you debunk them 1v1 or do a Mario and prove why lower speed metas are more consistent.

 

[Myst166]

Okay jokes aside you would need to like. explain why the current feats are invalid. We have 4 accepted infinite speed feats, and various speed calcs and statements supporting speeds far in excess of hypersonic (like this one, or an offsite calc for Marisa dodging natural sunlight).

It could reasonably be argued that Marisa isn't dodging sunlight. We see her react in the panel before the light beam is shown, and Sunny is pointing her hand towards Marisa before refracting sunlight towards her. Knowing this, it is plausible to infer that Marisa dodging here is pre-emptive.
Regardless, I'm mostly trying to refute all the Infinite Speed claims.

The first infinite speed claim is for all of the Touhou 8 cast: The feat of overcoming Kaguya Houraisan's Infinite Corridor.
There is one thing strange about this feat: when they manage to overcome the corridor. Regardless of what team you're using, it always happens after Eirin is defeated in the middle of Stage 6. Based on Reimu's article in PMiSS, all Spell Card Duels are made with a bet in mind. Going by this, I do not think it is coincidental that the corridor enchanted by the "manipulation of eternity and the instantaneous" would suddenly happen to be overcome by all these characters at the exact same time based on pure chance, nor is it by chance that overcoming the corridor took any amount of time at all. Instead, it is far more likely that the dispelling of this corridor was the reward of the player characters for defeating Eirin (presumably by asking Kaguya to do so), before either rematching the player character or Kaguya instead dueling the player character (dependent on route).

 

[DaReaperMan]

The first infinite speed claim is for all of the Touhou 8 cast: The feat of overcoming Kaguya Houraisan's Infinite Corridor.
There is one thing strange about this feat: when they manage to overcome the corridor. Regardless of what team you're using, it always happens after Eirin is defeated in the middle of Stage 6. Based on Reimu's article in PMiSS, all Spell Card Duels are made with a bet in mind. Going by this, I do not think it is coincidental that the corridor enchanted by the "manipulation of eternity and the instantaneous" would suddenly happen to be overcome by all these characters at the exact same time based on pure chance, nor is it by chance that overcoming the corridor took any amount of time at all. Instead, it is far more likely that the dispelling of this corridor was the reward of the player characters for defeating Eirin (presumably by asking Kaguya to do so), before either rematching the player character or Kaguya instead dueling the player character (dependent on route).

can you prove this is what takes place?

Because this feat has been argued to the point the horse is an indent on the ground

 

[Deidalius]

Huh, you're genuinely going to argue against all the feats? Well, I wish you good luck.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It could reasonably be argued that Marisa isn't dodging sunlight. We see her react in the panel before the light beam is shown, and Sunny is pointing her hand towards Marisa before refracting sunlight towards her. Knowing this, it is plausible to infer that Marisa dodging here is pre-emptive.
Regardless, I'm mostly trying to refute all the Infinite Speed claims.

The first infinite speed claim is for all of the Touhou 8 cast: The feat of overcoming Kaguya Houraisan's Infinite Corridor.
There is one thing strange about this feat: when they manage to overcome the corridor. Regardless of what team you're using, it always happens after Eirin is defeated in the middle of Stage 6. Based on Reimu's article in PMiSS, all Spell Card Duels are made with a bet in mind. Going by this, I do not think it is coincidental that the corridor enchanted by the "manipulation of eternity and the instantaneous" would suddenly happen to be overcome by all these characters at the exact same time based on pure chance, nor is it by chance that overcoming the corridor took any amount of time at all. Instead, it is far more likely that the dispelling of this corridor was the reward of the player characters for defeating Eirin (presumably by asking Kaguya to do so), before either rematching the player character or Kaguya instead dueling the player character (dependent on route).

1. How would she ask Kaguya to do so? Kaguya isn't even in the same scene.
2. Eirin explicitly states the corridor is infinite AFTER the protagonists exit it, and then questions how they will get back home. Those lines make no sense if she dispelled the corridor.
3. Eirin's entire goal is to prevent Kaguya from being found, which would be heavily contradicted by her supposedly dispelling the corridor.
4. Eirin has no known ability that could dispel the corridor.
5. Literally everything you're proposing only exists in the hypothetical, and has no actual proof behind it.

Were I not on mobile, this message would've been far more detailed.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

 

[Pixy]

what the actual f##k is this ? I though Cirno vs Gojo is already high enough wat da hell

 

[Pixy]

There's some discourse over how Touhou characters scale in terms of speed, so this thread is being made to work that stuff out.
I am of the belief that most Touhou characters scale at Peak Human to Hypersonic, with some outliers being slightly higher, although I have seen many who disagree, so this thread is for discussing that. The conversation leading to this thread was this one.

wait. . . DID YOU JUST TAKE JOKE THREAD SERIOUSLY !? BRO you don't see this !?

It's fun and game bro !!

 

[Myst166]

1. How would she ask Kaguya to do so? Kaguya isn't even in the same scene.
2. Eirin explicitly states the corridor is infinite AFTER the protagonists exit it, and then questions how they will get back home. Those lines make no sense if she dispelled the corridor.
3. Eirin's entire goal is to prevent Kaguya from being found, which would be heavily contradicted by her supposedly dispelling the corridor.
4. Eirin has no known ability that could dispel the corridor.
5. Literally everything you're proposing only exists in the hypothetical, and has no actual proof behind it.

Were I not on mobile, this message would've been far more detailed.

1. Eirin exits the scene in both routes A and B, giving her time to speak with Kaguya, and in A Kaguya even enters during the fight, implying she was at the very least aware of it, if not actually watching it.
2. Eirin is not saying that because the characters have to go through an "infinite corridor" to return, but because they're in outer space. Eirin also explicitly states the infinite corridor is an illusion, as part of her spell creating a false moon (and false Earth, as shown in the Netherworld scenario) to separate Kaguya from the real one (in response to Remilia stating the amount of work it would take to clean it).
3. Yes, Eirin's goal IS to prevent Kaguya from being found, but by the Lunarians. She does this because, well, they're fugitives.
4. You know, true, I might have screwed up here. There's also no definite proof that it was made with Kaguya's ability though, my bad for making that assumption. However, Eirin was able to create an illusion of the Earth, such that the Lunarians would be unable to pursue them (at least for a while), and explicitly makes the player character chase her until the corridor ultimately ends, and by the time it has, the characters are in outer space.
(I'll admit, I am still not sure what's actually going on, but from what I could understand there is a fake moon and fake earth, and Eirin's spell sort of criss-crossed them with the real versions)
5. Had it truly been an "infinite" corridor generated solely by Kaguya, the characters would have barely moved at all after overcoming it, simply reaching the other side of the corridor (similar to, say, Gwyndolin's arena in Dark Souls, or the infinite staircases in Super Mario 64). Instead, they're in outer space, which means that to an outside observer they were moving forward this entire time.

All this is to say that the corridor was never infinite, just stupidly long for a corridor, and even if it was, the characters' movement within the corridor would correspond to movement outside of it, and that therefore it was somehow dispelled and not overcome with infinite speed, meaning we can more accurately scale their speed off of the duration of Stages 5 and 6 of Imperishable Night and the distance they travelled.
As for the result of such a calculation, I'll have to get more accurate numbers later, but as a pretty rough estimate of travelling 100 kilometers in some 15 minutes (so ~400 kph) I believe this should be considered a Subsonic feat for now.

Feel free to dispute me, of course, and thanks for reading all this shit.

 

[Deidalius]

wait. . . DID YOU JUST TAKE JOKE THREAD SERIOUSLY !? BRO you don't see this !?

It's fun and game bro !!

I think he genuinely believes that. He saw the F&G thread and said it was downplay and then went on to make this thread.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

It could reasonably be argued that Marisa isn't dodging sunlight. We see her react in the panel before the light beam is shown, and Sunny is pointing her hand towards Marisa before refracting sunlight towards her. Knowing this, it is plausible to infer that Marisa dodging here is pre-emptive.
Regardless, I'm mostly trying to refute all the Infinite Speed claims.

The first infinite speed claim is for all of the Touhou 8 cast: The feat of overcoming Kaguya Houraisan's Infinite Corridor.
There is one thing strange about this feat: when they manage to overcome the corridor. Regardless of what team you're using, it always happens after Eirin is defeated in the middle of Stage 6. Based on Reimu's article in PMiSS, all Spell Card Duels are made with a bet in mind. Going by this, I do not think it is coincidental that the corridor enchanted by the "manipulation of eternity and the instantaneous" would suddenly happen to be overcome by all these characters at the exact same time based on pure chance, nor is it by chance that overcoming the corridor took any amount of time at all. Instead, it is far more likely that the dispelling of this corridor was the reward of the player characters for defeating Eirin (presumably by asking Kaguya to do so), before either rematching the player character or Kaguya instead dueling the player character (dependent on route).

You're really new on these forums so I won't shitpost.

We all have our own opinions, but thoughts alone can't be applied to characters. Making these claims but not bringing actual events from the games to support what you are postulating won't really change the already stablished ratings. In the case of your thread it's even more complicated because you'd need to bring evidence to support all that you claim and that evidence must be more consistent than the currently accepted ratings. I get that you are trying to communicate something, but your perception of their speed is very different from the one here and arguing from only your thoughts won't get you far.

 

[Myst166]

I think he genuinely believes that. He saw the F&G thread and said it was downplay and then went on to make this thread.

oh no, i know it's a joke, I just think some parts of how Touhou characters' speed is scaled to be kinda wack, so I'm at least trying to dispute them, even if not refute.

 

[Myst166]

You're really new on these forums so I won't shitpost.

We all have our own opinions, but thoughts alone can't be applied to characters. Making these claims but not bringing actual events from the games to support what you are postulating won't really change the already stablished ratings. In the case of your thread it's even more complicated because you'd need to bring evidence to support all that you claim and that evidence must be more consistent than the currently accepted ratings. I get that you are trying to communicate something, but your perception of their speed is very different from the one here and arguing from only your thoughts won't get you far.

Ok, I did. Any issue with what I brought up? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll be able to respond to this later if I'm not beaten to the punch.

 

[Myst166]

can you prove this is what takes place?

Because this feat has been argued to the point the horse is an indent on the ground

No DEFINITIVE proof, but I believe that the fact that after emerging from the corridor you're suddenly tens of kilometers away shows that there's more than meets the eye here.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No DEFINITIVE proof

This is all I need to hear, concession accepted.

 

[Bastolan27]

No DEFINITIVE proof, but I believe that the fact that after emerging from the corridor you're suddenly tens of kilometers away shows that there's more than meets the eye here.

What a great argument! I'll use it to argue immeasurable speed for all Touhou characters, as I believe them having movement shows there's more than meets the eye.

 

[Myst166]

What a great argument! I'll use it to argue immeasurable speed for all Touhou characters, as I believe them having movement shows there's more than meets the eye.

Alright, lemme ask you then: If you make it through an endless corridor, would you expect to come out a hundred kilometers away from the building?
My point is when I say "more than meets the eye," what I mean is that it doesn't all add up, and there's probably some factor involved that we haven't accounted for.

 

[Myst166]

Okay jokes aside you would need to like. explain why the current feats are invalid. We have 4 accepted infinite speed feats, and various speed calcs and statements supporting speeds far in excess of hypersonic (like this one, or an offsite calc for Marisa dodging natural sunlight).

So uh... Until you make an argument explaining how obviously wrong I was, what are the other infinite speed feats for Touhou?
Edit: nevermind, found em.

 

[Myst166]

Okay jokes aside you would need to like. explain why the current feats are invalid. We have 4 accepted infinite speed feats, and various speed calcs and statements supporting speeds far in excess of hypersonic (like this one, or an offsite calc for Marisa dodging natural sunlight).

So, next up, the Palanquin Ship feat.
This one's pretty simple, actually.
The player character never has to preform an infinite-speed feat in order to arrive at Hokkai.
PC reaches the Palanquin Ship before it enters Makai, so even if it is capable of Infinite Speed it is not necessarily at this velocity yet.
By the time Stage 5 begins, PC is already "Above Hokkai", AKA at its destination, when the ship runs out of fuel.
If there is ANY speed feat to mention here, it's that of the Ship itself, which PC is riding aboard, meaning they only have to catch up with the undefined, yet most likely finite speed of the ship before reaching Makai, and upon reaching it all that's left is for them is to team up with Shou to break the seal on Hokkai.

 

[Angelzewolf]

No offense... but you really should just include all this stuff in the OP. People won't read through a thread just to finally see what you're even talking about. And Touhou related CRT already struggle to reach a conclusion

I'd try my hand at discussing all this, but I'm not home and having my response auto-delete every time I leave this screen is discouraging at best, and infuriating at worst.

 

[Myst166]

Okay jokes aside you would need to like. explain why the current feats are invalid. We have 4 accepted infinite speed feats, and various speed calcs and statements supporting speeds far in excess of hypersonic (like this one, or an offsite calc for Marisa dodging natural sunlight).

Next, the Sanzu River feat.
Out of the 5 sources provided for this feat, only 1 can give proper evidence of an infinite distance: Komachi's dialogue with Marisa, as most of the rest refer to the Sanzu River having an infinite supply of water - although, since it's a flowing river, this won't necessarily have an effect on its width.
As for Komachi's quote: "Return! For living humans, the width of the Sanzu River is infinite! I won't let you cross!"
This runs directly counter to Ran's article in BAiJR, which says it is an inverse proportional curve to "the ferryman's fee" for the person, which is stated immediately afterwards to not literally refer to a fee, but a number of factors about the person's history, Still, Ran states that there is an equation to accurately calculate the width of the Sanzu River while taking this "fee" into account (which would, in theory, make it finite).

So, how can this be reconciled with Komachi's statement in PoFV?
Basically, there are 2 possibilities:
1. The "fee" is 0 for living humans, making the Sanzu river truly infinite. In this scenario, "I won't let you cross!" is an acknowledgment of Marisa's infinite speed... Which she couldn't have known about, unless it was a common trait in the verse and she just assumed it applied to her, as this would be her first time meeting Marisa.
2. The "fee" is not 0 for living humans, and is calculated the same as for deceased. In this scenario, "For living humans, the width of the Sanzu River is infinite! I won't let you cross!" is referring to Komachi's ability, Distance Manipulation, and the way she chooses to use it, which is to say that Komachi will continue to increase the width of the Sanzu River until either Marisa leaves or Komachi is unable to continue expanding it.
Coincidentally, Komachi in this scenario would indeed either unable to continue expanding it or chooses to stop after her fight with Marisa, as she presumably has to leave in order to either be reprimanded by Eiki or another higher-up due to her slacking off.
There is also more evidence to support this in PoFV, as Komachi attempts to extort a real fee out of Reimu for a luxury cruise across the river, without stating any strange quirks like an infinite distance for living humans, nor does she EVER mention this again.

So, which of these is correct? I believe the second is more likely out of these too, but make your own judgement.
I am, however, confident that this is enough to cast reasonable doubt on the Sanzu River feat being infinite-speed.

 

[Myst166]

No offense... but you really should just include all this stuff in the OP. People won't read through a thread just to finally see what you're even talking about. And Touhou related CRT already struggle to reach a conclusion

I'd try my hand at discussing all this, but I'm not home and having my response auto-delete every time I leave this screen is discouraging at best, and infuriating at worst.

So what do you suggest I do to remedy this, edit my arguments into the OP once I'm done making them?

 

[Myst166]

You're really new on these forums so I won't shitpost...

[Very long message regarding the corridor, with reference to Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara's counter-argument]

Sorry for repeating myself, but just to be clear, you don't have an issue with the point I made regarding the Infinite Corridor feat?