Undertale (& Deltarune): Stuff

[RinneItachi]

We know that Monster magic attacks on both a physical and spiritual level. Toriel's magic operates as literal fire, and Omega Flowey straight up says he'll tear Frisk to bloody pieces. Of course though, there's no reason to assume Asriel is literally annihilating Frisk on a physical level on top of destroying their soul, which would give Frisk Mid-Godly anyways, I'm pretty sure. Which was on their profile but got removed.

I don't have anything else to say here, other than that I agree with Deltarune getting its own page. I'll play through the game again and see how many noteworthy things I can find. I remember Susie shaking an underground room by stomping on it in anger, as well as several debatably wall level feats. Susie also blocks a sound attack from reaching Lancer from a distance, which I assume is Transonic to Subsonic. As for whether or not the Dark World is a dream, that's somewhat likely, but also highly theoretical. Way too subjective to be said as concrete fact.

 

[RinneItachi]

And I mean, as said before, Deltarune does have enough for its own page. There's no reason to ignore that just because we haven't seen everything yet. It'll be changed with the full release, to a massive degree, I'm sure, but for now, we should just work with what we have. I also wouldn't disagree with it being in Undertale's page, just a different section, as, while it's obviously a different game, there's no doubt at this point that it takes place in the same general verse, just a different timeline.

Btw, based on an update, Chapter 2 should be roughly finished by now, and I imagine they're getting started with Chapter 3 soon, if they haven't already. Seeing as Chapter 1 was released a year plus a few months before Chapter 2 was about finished, I wouldn't be surprised if the game was done in 3 or 4 more years, assuming the following chapters aren't significantly longer or simply a lot more arduous than Chapter 2. I doubt it'll even be 5 years until we see the full game, though.

 

[RinneItachi]

Oh wait, correction: Chapter 1 came out in late 2018, so it took a bit over 2 years. My bad on that one.

Also, I should mention that I'm going off of the assumption that there'll be 5 chapters. Of course, there's no confirmation, but it's what I'm guessing there'll be, for several reasons.

 

[RinneItachi]

Just finished a quick playthrough of it.

Generally speaking, Wall level is definitely a reasonable position for them. Lancer slamming his bike into Ralsei so hard that Ralsei is sent flying out of view, but takes no relevant damage from it. Susie shaking the room by stomping her foot on it. Character's being able to tank several hits from her axe like it's nothing, with Lancer in specific tanking attacks from an enraged Susie without suffering lethal damage. Etc.. Nothing that suggests above Wall level though, from what I can tell.

As for speed, the best that could be argued ranges from Transonic to Subsonic based on the soundwave blocking feat. There are also some other, minor speed feats that might be calculable, like the speed of Lancer's first two spades which travel down a huge pillar thing in less than a couple seconds, or Lancer moving across the screen quickly on his bike.

When it comes to hax, the soul manipulation mechanics transfer over from Undertale pretty clearly, so I doubt I need to say anything there. And of course, every enemy has Danmaku. Susie should have Energy Projection and maybe Rage Power, as her special attacks allow her to fire some kind of blast, and she seems to get stronger when angry. Kris should have Social Influencing on par with Frisk's. The way they word it even describes it as such charismatic social influencing that it's almost on par with things like Empathic Manipulation, it looks like people are mixed on whether or not to say he has time manipulation so that could be left for later, but I'd definitely say to give it to him. Ralsei should have Healing and Limited or just blatant Sleep Manipulation, as he can heal people with Heal Prayer and can put people, such as Susie, to sleep, and also pacify tired enemies by doing the same thing. Roux Card (if he gets a page) should have Teleportation and Portal Creation, as he's seen using this multiple times, even using it for another character. Jevil should have Teleportation, Shapeshifting, Explosion Manipulation, and Longevity.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not sure if we're allowed to say magic and soul stuff works in DT the same way it does in UT. There seem to be differences, such as monsters seemingly not being weakened by killing intent. And considering both the human and monster attacks deplete the same health bar, idk if we can say they're hurting the soul.

Also, Jevil should have Weapon Creation, Flight, and possibly a minor resistance to Sleep Manip.

 

[Metalballrun]

And considering both the human and monster attacks deplete the same health bar, idk if we can say they're hurting the soul.

Doesn't that just mean that their attacks can harm both the physical body and the soul? Though there might be attacks that harm the soul specifically but not the physical body.
We see multiple attacks from NPCs and Lancer that can pass through Kris's body but hit their soul. And when a health bar gets depleted, the soul gets destroyed whether it's a direct attack at the soul or a physical one.
But overall, how DT's fight system is gonna be treated needs to be analyzed more carefully. E.g. we know Susie just attacks people with her axe, but when she's with the Fun Gang she looks like attacking the physical body, but when she was with Lancer her attacks were portrayed to be attacking the soul directly.
I feel like despite the bullet hell gameplay, in-universe Kris and Ralsei were still physically avoiding Susie's attacks.

In terms of AP, there should be a calc though (preferably someone makes an RT compilation of their feats). We can't just assume their tier arbitrarily.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

There is the awkward thing where a soul was literally caged in a bird cage, and was physically stopped by the metal bars.

You could very well argue souls are not very intangible at all.

And if we go by gameplay instead, your body is literally ignored by the attacks, which pass through it, and there is even a mechanics for just barely evading the attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

In terms of AP, there should be a calc though (preferably someone makes an RT compilation of their feats). We can't just assume their tier arbitrarily.

Agreed.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't really care for undertale revisions of this sort, but if calculations are needed for deltarune I'm up to help

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

In terms of AP, there should be a calc though (preferably someone makes an RT compilation of their feats). We can't just assume their tier arbitrarily.

Lancer slamming his bike into Ralsei was calced at 219583.03 joules and Jevil exploding his Scythes was calced at 5435016 Joules

 

[Eficiente]

Almost everything Undertale wise was added and Frisk and Chara's profiles can be closed, I only didn't add the Soul Manip stuff for monsters because I worded it in a way that it would go in their Notable Attacks/Techniques and I can't simply do because monsters have a lot of Soul-based powers I could miss or misremember a bit, because we never explained things like this before in the verse. I or someone else should propose what should go in monsters' Soul Manip (What I wrote above+everything they have), we agree to it and then we add it.

I'll see what's up with all the new comments I didn't see and if I have to reply to anything.

 

[Eficiente]

We know that Monster magic attacks on both a physical and spiritual level.

On this bit, they can attack physically but the way battles go is that they only face the SOUL of the human while the body is who knows where. P. Flowey saying that to Frisk was before he knew Frisk dared to hopelessly face him battle, which then triggers Frisk fighting as a SOUL. There is also no evidence that every time a monster defeats Frisk and shatters their SOUL the same happens to their body as if it was also there, and it's anyway contradicted with how many monsters are too nice to do that. It's likely that the SOUL goes away from the body or that around the area where they fight becomes some astral plane of sorts, hence there is so much space for attacks.

All the help with Deltarune is appreciated. I remember that a lot of users already had their sandboxs for some characters the first weeks the game came out, it would be cool if that people could show their work to exchange ideas or something.

 

[Antvasima]

I have locked the Frisk and Chara pages.

 

[RinneItachi]

On this bit, they can attack physically but the way battles go is that they only face the SOUL of the human while the body is who knows where. P. Flowey saying that to Frisk was before he knew Frisk dared to hopelessly face him battle, which then triggers Frisk fighting as a SOUL. There is also no evidence that every time a monster defeats Frisk and shatters their SOUL the same happens to their body as if it was also there, and it's anyway contradicted with how many monsters are too nice to do that. It's likely that the SOUL goes away from the body or that around the area where they fight becomes some astral plane of sorts, hence there is so much space for attacks.

All the help with Deltarune is appreciated. I remember that a lot of users already had their sandboxs for some characters the first weeks the game came out, it would be cool if that people could show their work to exchange ideas or something.

The entire first paragraph is theoretical at best. We don't know what happens with their body at all. I would bring up game mechanics, but it's always kind of iffy when talking about Undertale, a verse that seems to literally operate on game mechanics in-universe.

Anyways, as a response to the rest of the replies here as well, it could very well be possible that Deltarune's Dark World in specific is different. Keep in mind that Kris normally has 20 HP in the overworld, the menu is completely different, etc.. So yeah, the Dark World should probably be treated as separate.

 

[RinneItachi]

How do I post images again? Actually I'm just gonna go use Imgur, even though it's kind of a pain.

 

[Axxtentacle]

You can copy the link and use the little image icon that has the mountain things on it

 

[RinneItachi]

I tried that but the first image was way too big so I'll just do this.

Anyways, as you can see in the third image, the overworld menu is literally identical to Undertale's, minus the change of the Underground using gold coins as a currency, and Kris using standard real-world money. Undertale also has a "KILLS" thing that Deltarune lacks, although I'm not sure if it shows up outside of Genocide. I would check but I have my SAVE file right before the Sans fight so I can fight him whenever I want, and I don't wanna Reset.

But back to the point, if Kris got into a fight in the overworld, it would most certainly even operate on the same battle system that Undertale uses. Because the overworld is just a separate timeline. The Dark World is like a different dimension. Although it's intriguing that they have a "LV" system of their own, as we can see in the menu that they all have a LV of 1. Whether or not it's the exact same as LOVE though, is all theoretical. Although we can assume it is probably at least similar, as none of the characters can actually murder people in the game. Even Susie doesn't kill anyone.

Also, when looking at Susie's stats and stuff, I noticed that it actually says "Does damage using dark energy". Obviously, that's the energy she uses when charging up and firing her Buster attacks. So yeah, definitely give her energy projection.

 

[RinneItachi]

I just realized that we can scale overworld Kris to Undertale character's based on stats, although I'm not sure everyone would be on board with that, especially when his stats would make him Small Building Level in the overworld.

 

[Metalballrun]

Lancer slamming his bike into Ralsei was calced at 219583.03 joules and Jevil exploding his Scythes was calced at 5435016 Joules

9-B and Subsonic max seems reasonable enough. Although I'm still iffy with taking the blocking the soundwaves statement literally (you can basically do the same thing IRL, since the purpose of what Susie did was for Lancer to not here the compliments), but at least that's better than the ridiculous supersonic/hypersonic Deltarune characters somehow.

 

[Eficiente]

For all UT monsters' Soul Manip in their Notable Attacks/Techniques, how about this:

• SOUL Manipulation: Monsters start battles against humans by remarking in an unexplored way their enemies' SOULs, making the humans' SOULs take damage from the monsters when hit while the humans can still do physical actions like moving, dodging, fighting, etc. Monsters can regularly interact with SOULs and incorporeal ghosts without the previously mentioned "remarking", and also affect humans and other things without targetting their SOUL. When absorbing 1 human soul their souls combine and the control of their body splits between monster and human, absorving more souls can let a monster make the souls obey it, which is implied to work perfectly with 7 SOULs.
  • SOUL [[Absorption]]: According to monster lore, if a monster defeats a human, they can take its SOUL, they can also absorb it at will if the human dies. This would result in an exponential amp in power for the monster.

 

[RinneItachi]

9-B and Subsonic max seems reasonable enough. Although I'm still iffy with taking the blocking the soundwaves statement literally (you can basically do the same thing IRL, since the purpose of what Susie did was for Lancer to not here the compliments), but at least that's better than the ridiculous supersonic/hypersonic Deltarune characters somehow.

It's explicitly said that she ran to Lancer after the soundwaves were heading towards him to cover his ears and block the sound. She definitely moved at speeds at least close to that of sound, when accounting for the distance advantage. It's Transonic at a bare minimum.

It's also fairly consistent with Undertale character's being able to react to sound based attacks, if that's worth anything.

 

[RinneItachi]

Wait I just realized that Transonic is faster than Subsonic, I thought it was between Superhuman and Subsonic. In that case I meant to say it's at least highend Superhuman, probably Subsonic.

 

[RinneItachi]

I just realized something. Most people consider the method of gaining LOVE to be only through killing, which is also what's described on Frisk's page. But I got reminded today that you can actually get a decent amount of extra EXP by bullying Loox, meaning that killing is only the main method of gaining LOVE, not the sole method.

This also basically confirms that even the LV system of the Dark World is different, as Susie would no doubt have higher LV than Kris and Ralsei, for obvious reasons.

 

[RinneItachi]

Based on that, would it be better to reword it as the human being able to gain LOVE through committing wrongful acts in general?

Also, this apparently means Frisk could just roast someone and get stronger lmao.

 

[Theuser789]

You need to actualy kill Loox to get the extra EXP, if you spare him you gain nothing

 

[Antvasima]

What is left to do here?

 

[RinneItachi]

You need to actualy kill Loox to get the extra EXP, if you spare him you gain nothing

Still, that means there are two possibilities. One being that insulting them gives bonus EXP, which still proves what I was saying, or that insulting his fight makes it harder, and based on the Genocide Route, the difficulty of an enemy determines how much EXP it gives, even though that's also kind of odd.

 

[RinneItachi]

What is left to do here?

We need to make Deltarune profiles now but that could probably be another thread entirely. I don't know if there's anything else this thread wanted to cover that hasn't been already.

 

[Eficiente]

Almost everything Undertale wise was added and Frisk and Chara's profiles can be closed, I only didn't add the Soul Manip stuff for monsters because I worded it in a way that it would go in their Notable Attacks/Techniques

For all UT monsters' Soul Manip in their Notable Attacks/Techniques, how about this:

• SOUL Manipulation: Monsters start battles against humans by remarking in an unexplored way their enemies' SOULs, making the humans' SOULs take damage from the monsters when hit while the humans can still do physical actions like moving, dodging, fighting, etc. Monsters can regularly interact with SOULs and incorporeal ghosts without the previously mentioned "remarking", and also affect humans and other things without targetting their SOUL. When absorbing 1 human soul their souls combine and the control of their body splits between monster and human, absorving more souls can let a monster make the souls obey it, which is implied to work perfectly with 7 SOULs.
  • SOUL [[Absorption]]: According to monster lore, if a monster defeats a human, they can take its SOUL, they can also absorb it at will if the human dies. This would result in an exponential amp in power for the monster.

 

[RinneItachi]

I don't know about that. Listing the fact that they have a limited and specific form of soul manipulation as a notable attack/technique for every Monster in the game seems unnecessary, but I'll see what other people think of it.

 

[Theuser789]

Still, that means there are two possibilities. One being that insulting them gives bonus EXP, which still proves what I was saying, or that insulting his fight makes it harder, and based on the Genocide Route, the difficulty of an enemy determines how much EXP it gives, even though that's also kind of odd.

It's the first

 

[Eficiente]

I don't know about that. Listing the fact that they have a limited and specific form of soul manipulation as a notable attack/technique for every Monster in the game seems unnecessary, but I'll see what other people think of it.

By experience, having what's really going on written helps understand everything in a verse better and deduct new things of it. For example, most people in vsthreads kinda exaggerate how monsters attack others' soul while not having in mind how the target would be aware that they will be attacked in their soul if hit, because they can now in battle literally see their soul there open to attacks. It's not like noticing this would require Extrasensory Perception or anything, otherwise every character would have it for that reason.

 

[RinneItachi]

I mean, a lot of people would argue those as game mechanics, and to an extent I'd agree but then you have both Undertale and Deltarune treating said game mechanics as real in-universe. But THEN you have things that contradict even that. It's a finnicky topic.

 

[Eficiente]

If anyone argues I argue back, because they're not game mechanics. There's not much beyond it.

Edit: Plant the seed of doubt may be free but those comments were full of nothing.

 

[RinneItachi]

I mean, Undertale is a highly self-aware game, which is what makes the whole game mechanics thing debatable in the first place. Either side is contradictory, as there's enough evidence to say that they are or aren't game mechanics for it just be inconsistent overall.

 

[RinneItachi]

But I'm not about to get into this argument, as I have a feeling it could get big enough for it to be a thread of its own, and I don't like debates drawn out that much. For now we should probably focus on Deltarune profiles anyways.

 

[RinneItachi]

Would Jevil have Chaos Manipulation? Because the page for it implies some reality warping stuff, and while Jevil says "I can do anything!", with his whole shtick literally being that he's an insane chaotic jester, he doesn't really have anything actually like what's described on the page, although I guess he's one of the more haxed Deltarune characters overall, although Deltarune so far is quite lacking in that regard when compared to Undertale in geneal.

Also, should he have invulnerability? He claims that his body cannot be killed, and no matter how much damage you do, he never actually gets significantly harmed, just tired out. Obviously I'm not saying some sort of literal invulnerability as in NLF, just the ability as it is defined on the wiki, which is that he is generally immune to normal attacks within a certain range of AP. So he'd be invulnerable to character's with wall level AP and such.

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin @Agnaa @Ricsi-viragosi @Elizhaa @Ultima_Reality

What do you think about this?

 

[RinneItachi]

Wait, what is the Check skill listed as? Extrasensory Perception? Because you're unable to view Jevil's stats, and the game states that there is no strategy to defeat him. Would that count as a minor resistance to whatever ability Check is considered?