Upside Down Man/Great Evil Beast revisions

[Antvasima]

Well, we cannot scale the UDM and Hecate from the GEB and The Presence, so we should probably focus our discussion on their own personal feats instead. If they are decided to be of a 1-A scale, so be it.

 

[Xearsay]

Also if you don’t agree with the Source Wall statement even though it’s directly said in the comics... I can change it to the one Amakasu gave.

 

[Deagonx]

It was not directly said in the comics at all, there is a specific interpretation of a vague one-off line which, if you ignore a myriad of other canon information, could potentially be interpreted that way. But of course, there's no reason to accept that interpretation in spite of the myriad of conflicting other canon information.

 

[Elizio33]

Hecate cannot be superior to the Presence. The Collective Uncounscous was born from the Presence/Source. The Great Evil Beast should have two key, one for the original and another for the Otherkinds fragment.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hecate cannot be superior to the Presence. The Collective Uncounscous was born from the Presence/Source. The Great Evil Beast should have two key, one for the original and another for the Otherkinds fragment.

Yeah. I agree with this.

Hecate can be 1-A while still being weaker than the Presence. The original Great Evil Beast from the Swamp Thing story would still be 1-A because of the way its described and also because its more powerful than Lucifer.

 

[Amakasu]

Wait, when was it stated that lucifer was weaker than GEB?

 

[Amakasu]

Lucifer is legit a rival or relative to the Presence.

 

[Amakasu]

I think we should disregard geb, as my first post stated that geb can't be applied to the other kind for multiple reasons.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Wait, when was it stated that lucifer was weaker than GEB?

In the comic.

"This Darkness is no mere Fallen Angel, it is something much older and more primal"

Lucifer is legit a rival or relative to the Presence.

No he isn't, what parallel universe do you live in where this is true?

 

[Amakasu]

In the comic.

"This Darkness is no mere Fallen Angel, it is something much older and more primal"

Mind posting scans, and something being older or primal dosent mean it's superior to it. Dream of the endless arguably came before lucifer but he is still fodder to hi.

No he isn't, what parallel universe do you live in where this is true?

I actually read the comic, mate. In 2000, it's literally stated on panel that lucifer and Michael's power were equal to the Presence, and in 2016, lucifer legit choped a being who was calling himself the presence and had power over all of creation.

 

[Deagonx]

"This Darkness is no mere Fallen Angel, it is something much older and more primal"

This is a pretty gross misrepresentation of the text. The quote is this:

"This is no Fallen Angel of Leviathan heaven faces. This is the soul of darkness itself."

1. The word "mere" is not present, which in your false quote would suggest it was greater than any fallen angel.
2. The phrase "fallen angel" wasn't generic, it was specifically "fallen angel of Leviathan."
3. If there is any point in the story where it is called "older and more primal" it is never done in reference to the Fallen Angel of Leviathan and I'm not sure it is at all.

 

[Y3kthunder]

The darkness is no mere fallen angel of Leviathan deagon has already pointed this out and and assuming it literally meant fallen angel period that no longer matters.
Lucifer is no longer a mere angel period. Ive already gone over this he is the concept of darkness. The morningstar is but one aspect one view point. I Lucifer Morningstar the great beast. Old harry. The shadow on the cave wall. And a thousand names besides. These are all literally different view points or aspects or versions of him. As shown in the realm of the vishnu. Further bcked up in the sandman universe. I have lived these storys a thousand times been the monster of a thousand tales. He literally means it. It was a focus point that dan pointed out early on he is a fractional being. Like i said before the most condemning thing for him being geb comes from the original sandman which doesnt matter anymore anyway. Cause this story is canon to that niel approved of this story. You hve a list of similarities. Visual representation. And clear cut author intent

 

[Xearsay]

Oh my lord. This is not a Lucifer thread people.

If the GEB was an aspect of Lucifer that would be implying Lucifer > The Presence. Which is just flat out wrong. End of story.

 

[Amakasu]

Oh my lord. This is not a Lucifer thread people.

Mathew brought it up...

If the GEB was an aspect of Lucifer that would be implying Lucifer > The Presence. Which is just flat out wrong. End of story.

The Presence is not equal to geb at all, yes, they are equal in importance but not in strength. Plus I don't even belive that the hand is the Presence.

 

[Xearsay]

Actually it was Michael who first brought it up. But that’s besides the point. I just think this thread is turning more into whether Lucifer is the GEB and distracting from the original topic at hand.

It seems heavily implied to me the hand was God, however I respect if you think otherwise

 

[Y3kthunder]

That doesn't imply anything of the sort the presence created the dark refer to Lucifer's convo with raguiel but if yall want to focus more on the otherkind aspect feel free

 

[Deagonx]

If the GEB was an aspect of Lucifer that would be implying Lucifer > The Presence.

No, it wouldnt. GEB isnt > The Presence and isn't even necessarily = to the Presencce.

It seems heavily implied to me the hand was God, however I respect if you think otherwise

It might have been the Presence, it might not have been, but even if it was the Presence that wouldn't necessarily make them equals. We have no particular reason to believe that the Presence would have acted to destroy the Great Darkness outright.

 

[Xearsay]

I never said GEB > The Presence and they’re literally shown to be locked in a stalemate with each other.

 

[Y3kthunder]

That because of balance ive posted this scan to the hunted god "the universe needs balance a dark to define the light". The presence wouldn't straight up eliminate him

 

[Xearsay]

That because of balance ive posted this scan to the hunted god "the universe needs balance a dark to define the light". The presence wouldn't straight up eliminate him

There’s literally no proof he could eliminate him either. However I’ll respect if you think otherwise so we could move on from this topic. Since this is basically just bickering at this point.

 

[Deagonx]

I never said GEB > The Presence

You said if GEB is Lucifer then Lucifer > Presence, which is false. At the very best it would be Lucifer = Presence

they’re literally shown to be locked in a stalemate with each other.

They're shown to be arm wrestling. Have you ever arm wrestled? If you're stronger than your opponent, it's quite easy to keep them in the middle.

There’s literally no proof he could eliminate him either.

Precisely. We don't know one way or the other.

 

[Y3kthunder]

But again he literally made him refer to Lucifer's convo with ragiuel perhaps thats why he made me the way i am he needed shadow to define his light. Or if you want you can refer way back to careys run where again amenadial tells us the presence made light and dark or good evil whatever have you

 

[Y3kthunder]

You said if GEB is Lucifer then Lucifer > Presence, which is false. At the very best it would be Lucifer = Presence



They're shown to be arm wrestling. Have you ever arm wrestled? If you're stronger than your opponent, it's quite easy to keep them in the middle.



Precisely. We don't know one way or the other.

Agreed

 

[Xearsay]

I said if the GEB was an aspect of Lucifer... You clearly didn’t read my comment.

The panels prior to this said they were reaching out to fight. So the two arms locked in with one anther is meant to illustrate that. The phantom stranger literally saids their at balance on the panel.

 

[Y3kthunder]

Viewpoint would probably be the more correct way to look at it. Think overture all of those different dreams think that. Like dream said all beings view him differently. Same applies here with the concept of darkness its all Lucifer just different ways to see him which is also backed by his visit to the vishnu you see all the viewpoints acting in unison. Thats my point

 

[Xearsay]

Well that sounds like the kali and Michael thing. How Kali and Michael both represent the same thing across different pantheons. However even though both represent a similar thing, Kali is still a separate being from Michael.

 

[Y3kthunder]

Now your looking at it wrong in a different way. morpheus is dream of the endless. As is daniel theyre both the same being the same concept. Just a different viewpoint In overture you see all the different versions of dream all the ways to see him thats whats going on here. He is the concept of darkness so anywhere said concept exists so does he also meaning he wears many different faces. Hence These theyre all just different ways to look at him again an i quote. "I have lived these tales a thousand times and more, been the monster in a thousand shadows" or to quote dan RP: I’m interested in the relationship that Lucifer is talking about with his symbolism. I guess I’m curious on two levels: both on what that means to him as a character and how your’e conceptualizing mythology, but also meta-textually, what that might mean to you as a writer who’s actually wielding these symbols and thinking about them. DW: So with those three illustrations — the idea is that there are these paintings on the walls of Lux. The brothers have given a through thread with how they look, the ideas is that the first one is the striking down of Lucifer by Saint Michael the second one is from a piece of Irish folklore, and the third one is definitely nodding towards Edgar Allen Poe. So the idea is that you have Lucifer as a religious figure, you’ve got him as folkloric figure — that version of the devil is very different generally speaking than the religious figure of Satan. Those two never really got combined until Paradise Lost. The idea of Satan as the ruler of hell who is also the angel Lucifer who fell from heaven, that was entirely Milton. He slammed those two characters together and said, “Okay, this is one being now.” And so powerful was Paradise Lost that we’ve just run with that from there on. So that entirely comes from a piece of poetry. And that kind of goes into the third one which is the horror, fiction version, which probably is what most of us today deal with more than any of the other versions. So it’s definitely a case of wanting to look at all the different versions of Lucifer or Satan and try and amalgamate them. Or not even amalgamate them, but allow all versions to have the freedom to go into all those different arenas, which is something I was really interested in. It’s almost a little bit like with Sandman and when you see Dream from someone else’s perspective. You see it from a cat’s perspective it’s a cat, when you see it from Martian Manhunter’s perspective he’s a giant flaming skull. And kind of let Lucifer be a similar thing in that he’s this very fractal figure — he has all of these symbols but he sort of is all of these symbols. He stands for all these different things for different people and he looms in the background of all of our human darkness in any story. From a writer’s perspective the freedom that gives me is unbelievable, because any story about the dark side of humanity becomes Lucifer’s story.

So again geb is a viewpoint or different perspective i dont think one can get more clear than this

 

[Antvasima]

@C2_of_Omegon @Sandman31 @Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099 @Deagonx

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Sandman31]

I don't think Lucifer, as he was portrayed in the most recent run, is just a Fallen Angel. It's been explicitly stated that he's not an angel like Michael (Though this Michael doesn't also seems to be anywhere near as powerful as the portrayal in the 2000 run)and the rest. But I don't think he's the GEB either.

I think he's more of something like the Endless, he's an entity who represents the "darkness" or the adversary. Just like the Endless, he's an entity that doesn't fit in a single mythology but more of a counterpart to the Presence here who is supposed to be "the Light"

I think Lucifer here is more like "the darkness" in the universe. The only thing connecting him to the Void is the fact that he came into existence in a dark void. Which doesn't really mean he is the void.

The "Great Beast" doesn't mean "Great Evil Beast"
That line is just referencing The Second Coming poem, specifically the last line

"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
-The Second Coming

"There is a great beast slouching towards Bethlehem, slouching towards us all"

So its an obvious reference to that and not to Swamp Thing

"But they're close enough! its similar to GEB, so it has to be GEB!"

This portrayal of Lucifer does seem similar to the GEB but we don't have concrete proof that he is The GEB. Pralaya is similar to GEB too, actually she's has more similarities to the GEB than Lucifer, yet we dont consider him the GEB. Why? because there's no concrete proof that she is.

"But he's the counterpart to God, so he has to be the GEB"

God's counterpart/nemesis etc is Lucifer, which he is.
You don't need to be the GEB to be considered as God's counterpart, Lucifer is already a counterpart to God. Not saying that GEB cant be Lucifer but saying that two characters are the same needs a direct statement saying that they are, and not just some similarities.

Anyway, I think Lucifer is the darkness, he's a counterpart to the light, but there's nothing saying that he's the dark void before Creation (In contrast he said that he was born in the dark void)

Also, I think we should have a separate key for this 2018 Lucifer, because I'm now convinced its a reboot.

https://ew.com/books/2018/08/08/sandman-universe-1-new-lucifer-story/amp/

Clearly, the devil has been going through some tough times. But even though Lucifer followed his appearances in The Sandman with a 75-issue solo series written by Mike Carey and a more recent 19-issue series written by Holly Black, Watters is clear that none of that is necessary to follow the characters new adventure

"Because this is The Sandman Universe, we wanted to go back to The Sandman and the roots of the character," Watters tells EW. "Lucifer has had these amazing long runs by Mike Carey and Holly Black, and it's got this hugely successful TV show, so it's trying to balance a version of him that will appeal to everyone who loves this character, but also doesn't require you to have read a bunch of books or three seasons of a TV show. We were very much looking back to Sandman and using that as our primary source material."

Some people are saying that Dan Watters said it happened before the 2000 and 2016 run. Which is basically just saying that it happened after the original Sandman, it doesn't say whether it considers the other Lucifer runs canon to it.

I actually thought that was the case but that couldn't have been the case because in this run, if this is before the 2000 run then Michael shouldnt be in the Silver City. Actually, it looks like he wasn't stabbed in the back by Sandalphon and was never imprisoned. That's a pretty major change because that basically removes one of the major antagonist in the Mike Carey run and is drastic change to the history a major character. It also can't be explained that "Lucifers a fractional entity" because this isn't about Lucifer and the new run made it clear that none of the other angels, Michael included, is like Lucifer.

"Maybe this is set before Michael was imprisoned?"

Michael was imprisoned nearly at the same time as Lucifer fell. So that's out of the question.

Aside from that, another major change to Michael's character here is that he's just so weak. Really. This guy is just Michael. He doesnt seem to posses what makes Michael Demiurgos unique among everything in existence, which is the Dunamis Demiurgos.

If this is the same Michael as the 2000 Michael then this shouldnt be happening

Michael getting weak and disappearing because there's less of the Presence's Will to go around is contradictory to his role as the bearer of the Demiurge, God's second, basically him being the Presence 2.0.

God disappearing shouldn't do anything to Michael, hell the only reason why Creation survived as long as it did in the 2000 run was because Michael was using his will to keep renewing Creation. When he died and transferred his powers to Elaine, Creation started fading out of existence as well. And another thing, since Michael wasn't imprisoned by Sandalphon then Elaine doesn't exist in this run.

That's not even all of the changes but I think its clear how this pretty much ignored the previous Lucifer runs.

 

[Sandman31]

tldr of what I think:

-I dont think that this is Lucifer is the GEB, he occupies somewhat of a same role, probably except being the void before time as there's really no solid evidence that support it.

-I think in this run, Lucifer being = to Presence is something that is not that unbelievable once you considered that the authors main source is the Sandman, so the contradictions brought by the 2 other Lucifer solo can be thrown out of the window

-This run is clearly not the continuation of the 2000 run, its also doesnt look like it took place before it as I previously thought so the only explanation that I can think of is that, as the writer said, this is only the continuation of Sandman.

-There should be another key for Lucifer's profile because of this

Edit: fixed some brain farts

 

[Amakasu]

tldr of what I think:

-I dont think that this is Lucifer is the GEB, he occupies somewhat of a same role, probably except being the void before time as there's really no solid evidence that support it.

-I think in this run, Lucifer being = to Presence is something that is not that unbelievable once you considered that the authors main source is the Sandman

-This run is clearly not the continuation of the 2000 run, its also doesnt look like it took place before it as I previously though so the only explanation that I can think of is that, as the writer said, is only the continuation of Sandman.

-There should be another key for Lucifer's profile because of this

Edit: fixed some brain farts

From what I read about lucifer 2018, it takes place after Sandman and before the beginning of 2000.

 

[Sandman31]

From what I read about lucifer 2018, it takes place after Sandman and before the beginning of 2000.

Then Michael shouldnt be there, Michael was capture by Sandalphon after the war and as only freed by Lucifer in the 2000 run. So hes pretty much gone until Lucifer freed him in his 2000 run. Michael in this run also wasnt portrayed as a fractal being, so he doesnt have multiple stories/origins like Lucifer

Also, from the war flashback, it doesn't seem like Michael was stabbed in the back.

 

[Amakasu]

Then Michael shouldnt be there, Michael was capture by Sandalphon after the war and as only freed by Lucifer in the 2000 run. So hes pretty much gone until Lucifer freed him

Also, from the war flashback, it doesnt seem like Michael was stabbed in the back.

Bur the last volume of lucifer takes place after the time period I said about. I'll post some scans

 

[Sandman31]

Bur the last volume of lucifer takes place after the time period I said about. I'll post some scans

Yeah, I know it takes place after Sandman, but it doesnt make sense for it to take place before the 2000 run. So, I could only guess that what they did was use the The Sandman as their primary material, which is what Dan Watters did say

https://ew.com/books/2018/08/08/sandman-universe-1-new-lucifer-story/amp/

Clearly, the devil has been going through some tough times. But even though Lucifer followed his appearances in The Sandman with a 75-issue solo series written by Mike Carey and a more recent 19-issue series written by Holly Black, Watters is clear that none of that is necessary to follow the characters new adventure

"Because this is The Sandman Universe, we wanted to go back to The Sandman and the roots of the character," Watters tells EW. "Lucifer has had these amazing long runs by Mike Carey and Holly Black, and it's got this hugely successful TV show, so it's trying to balance a version of him that will appeal to everyone who loves this character, but also doesn't require you to have read a bunch of books or three seasons of a TV show. We were very much looking back to Sandman and using that as our primary source material."

He also said that Mike Carey and Holly Black's run did happen too. But the way he worded it makes me think that he meant that he didn't change/retcon those stories but kind of like ignored them so they did happen, theyre not just canon to this story he's telling

 

[Amakasu]

@Sandman31 it's in issue 13 to 14.

Also, I'm hearing people are going to downgrade the Unwritten.

 

[Sandman31]

@Sandman31 it's in issue 13 to 14.

Also, I'm hearing people are going to downgrade the Unwritten.

Yeah, Morpheus's death and Lux's being built is there, so its after The Sandman. I'm not really disputing that. Its why I also thought that its before Mike Carey's run but the last volume screwed that theory up.

About Unwritten, they can do whatever they want. I'm not sure that my interpretation of Unwritten is right either way. I just became active right now because I don't have anything to do so I'll probably gone once things gets busy irl again, which is probably in 2-3 weeks from now (or earlier). If I'm still active by then I'll debate it.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with if we add an extra key to Lucifer's profile page based on the new run on the book.

I would also greatly appreciate if you could handle your intended revisions to The Unwritten before you disappear again Sandman31. I will give you support if necessary.

 

[Deagonx]

I said if the GEB was an aspect of Lucifer

The difference is immaterial. Aspect doesn't mean "small subsect of power."

What do you think that we should do here?

The only arguments made for the upgrade were GEB and the Source Wall, neither of which stand to scrutiny in my opinion, since as stated scaling Hecate to GEB breaks the cosmology pointlessly, and the evidence for the Source Wall is incredibly shifty. With that in mind, I don't think any particular changes need to be made.

Though I agree that another key could be added to the Lucifer page.

 

[Sandman31]

I've seen that, but to me, it seems that he meant that what he's doing is its own thing. Like, in the case of Code Geass anime and film series, both are said to be "canon", but in a sense that theyre in a different continuity/universe so there's really no retcon that happened thus both stories happened, but that doesnt really mean there's continuity between the 2 of them.

I think the 2000/2016 and 2018 series shares the same origin of Sandman, but then diverged after that.

 

[Deagonx]

Like, in the case of Code Geass anime and film series are said to be both canon, but in the sense theyre in a different continuity/universe so theres really no retcon that happened.

That makes sense. If I remember correctly at the end of the Lucifer (2000) Run we saw that there were a multitude of different Lucifers.