Valkyria Chronicles AP upgrade

[Kaltias]

The Marmota has 800 mm cannons, and it uses them against you during the mission where you have to divert it. Those cannons are based on this one, which can fire shells whose yield is 710 kg of TNT.

The Edlweiss can take a single shot from it, so it would be a lower degree of 8-C (it mounts the same guns as tanks that can damage it).

Selvaria can one shot the Edelweiss, and Alicia is stronger than Selvaria, so they should be "at least 8-C".

 

[Theglassman12]

This seems reasonable.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Legit,i agree with this.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

Yeah, seem legit. I agree with this.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Looks good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me as well.

 

[Kaltias]

Also, i think that this warrants Low-Mid regen.

She states outright that the wound was lethal, and she definitely stabbed herself trough the stomach ot something.

Scales to Alicia (Well to any Valkyria, but they don't have profiles), i guess

 

[Kaltias]

Well while we are here. Alicia has a High 8-C feat (Although it needs evaluation).

Also i don't think that Selvaria's Final Flame should scale from Alicia, given that the latter stomped her

 

[Naberius_Buster]

Hmm, I didn't realize that the Marmota uses it's forward guns during the chapter 16 battle to attack your tanks. I only remember the machine gun, the mortars (not listed on it's Wiki page for some reason), and the map deleting (simulates the Marmota crushing things) during that mission.
How do you get it to use the forward facing guns on the Edelweiss? I want to see if it is using the 340 mm or the 800 mm cannons (via coming from either the barrel of the weapon or by comparing damage between the big cannons).

Wikipedia says the HE shells have 700 kg of explosive weight. If you are targeting a tank with that kind of gun wouldn't you use AP for best effect which has 250 kg of explosive weight, alongside roughly 50% more total weight for added penetration? There is also the issue of VC universe explosives using Ragnite, which might also strengthen the yield of HE shells in relation to normal explosives.

Shouldn't we be more concerned with penetration than pure explosive force? It isn't like the explosion is all that useful if you can't get it through the tank's armor.

There is also the issue of the 800 mm cannon being used in a point-blank direct fire capacity rather than a plunging fire one, and I don't know which one would be a more impressive feat (presumably the direct fire one).

I suppose there isn't an artillery aficionado on this site who can help us get accurate calcs, is there?

Yeah, the regen buff makes perfect sense, so you have my support here.

To be honest I wouldn't say that Alicia is better than Selvaria, as I can't think of any on screen feats where she blows her out of the water. Selvaria simply bungled that fight and would likely win any rematches when Alicia can't even make any intelligent decisions with her Valkyria powers (like throwing the lance at the Marmota rather than crippling or outright destroying it).

 

[Kaltias]

I believe that it uses the 800 mm guns, mostly because iirc the 340 mm guns of the Marmota aren't mortars. And tbf it would scale to Selvaria and Alicia anyway given that the portrayal made in game is that Valkyrur >> modern weaponry.

Thinking about it again though, i'm not sure if scaling the Edlweiss from it would be game mechanics. Mostly because it can take an attack from the Valkhof in game, but it's made pretty clear that it can't, lore wise.

Energy wise, the pure explosive force is more impressive.

I mean, the battle at Naggiar pretty much established that in raw stats, Alicia is >> Selvaria. She dodged her attacks effortlessly and one shot her

 

[Kaltias]

If accepted, this scales to Alicia and Selvaria and makes them HS+

 

[Naberius_Buster]

The Edelweiss can technically take some punishment from the lance, but only the machine gun like burst fire from the Valkof's tip, as a charged shot from it pretty much vaporizes everything in front of it.

Yeah, Alicia does have a bit of a lead in strength, what with causing Selvaria to tumble back that first time she broke that lance lock, but Selvaria was still holding the idiot ball since she failed to use the speed she shows in the fight against Imca.
She also got hit by Alicia's attack which was pretty badly telegraphed and is inexcusable on her end. What exactly was that attack anyway? I know Alicia can push Selvaria back thanks to raw strength alone, but it also looked like she was charging up for that hit too, so it seems like Valkyria Selvaria's durability stops at what ever level that Alicia's Lance can output with a charged shot.
That battle would have lasted more than 20 seconds from the point where Alicia got serious if Selvaria actually fought properly from the get go.

I would still lean towards using Selvaria in vs battles over Alicia because Selvaria is willing to use her entire moveset, and isn't a total idiot when it comes to using her powers properly (Alicia threw her lance away instead of slagging the Marmota like any sane Valkyria would do). Alicia's best showing of control over her power is that time she kissed Welkin without burning him, which means Valkyria have control over the temperature of their flames (yet another feat worth knowing).
Regardless you would have to state Alicia is blood lusted since she wouldn't use her powers properly in character, unlike Selvaria.

Have we fully calculated and accounted for everything from the Alicia vs Marmota battle?
She no-selled numerous near misses and a single direct hit (this is the only one which she braced and slowed down for) from the Marmota's broadside (every gun on the starboard side, using HE shells presumably), which means that all the blast waves, overpressure, heat, and shrapnel couldn't even do anything even when most of it would have gotten around her shield and hit her directly.

I'm curious how that recent feat with Selvaria deflecting Imca's shell would be calculated in terms of reactions, since the guys at SpaceBattles came up with a reaction speed of 4 milliseconds when Riela performed a similar feat (4th page of Alicia vs Master Chief thread). I don't know if that could be useful to you or not.

 

[Kaltias]

I asked for a calc of Alicia dodging the shells. The energy value definitely wouldn't reach anything close to the 0.8 tons they currently scale to.

Selvaria deflecting Imca's shell is Mach 17,4

 

[Kaltias]

So I made this calc.

For reference this is the full scaling showing the gap between that feat and almost everyone who isn't a regular soldier.

Alicia (One shot Selvaria) >>> Selvaria (Impervious to any attack from any known weapon) >>> Marmota (Outclasses the Batomys in every conceivable way, only damaged by Valkyrur weaponry) >>> Batomys (Immune to AT weaponry unless already critically damaged) >>> Lupus (Literally an enhanced tank destroyer superior in every category) >>> Edelweiss (Same cannon as a Tank Destroyer) = Tank Destroyer (Obliterates heavy tanks) >>> Heavy Tank (Far superior to medium tanks) >>> Medium Tank (Far superior to light tanks) >>> Light Tank (Takes no damage from mortars) >>> Mortar (The feat calced, 0.5 tons).

Baseline High 8-C starts at 2 tons, with that kind of scaling i'd say that the Edelweiss can be "At least 8-C, likely High 8-C", Alicia and Selvaria can be "At least High 8-C".

 

[RKGenki]

The scaling makes sense. I agree with Kal. Maybe an "At least High 8-C, possibly/likely higher" at least for Alicia if not also for Selvaria? The gap between High 8-C and 8-B isn't that big, and considering how much the Marmota is superior to everything below it this doesn't seem too far fetched

 

[Kaltias]

Neutral about whether or not they should get a "possibly higher" or something. While the scaling is as long as it is, it's still a gap of over 20 times between the original feat and baseline 8-B.

They definitely aren't baseline High 8-C though, that's for sure

 

[RKGenki]

Let's wait for more input then

 

[Kaltias]

Bump I guess

 

[Schnee_One]

I agree with this

 

[Kaltias]

My proposal or Genki's?

 

[Xanxussama1010]

"At least High 8-C, possibly higher" seem ok for me. Selvaria and Alicia should be stronger than baseline High 8-C to unknown degree. As we're not sure about ceiling of their AP, so possibly higher should be best.

 

[Kaltias]

Unkown as "non-quantifiable" sure, but given the scaling, it's pretty safe to say that they'd be in the higher end of the tier. I mean Selvaria is 3-4 degrees of stomping above baseline High 8-Cs

 

[Theglassman12]

I agree with the High 8-C proposition.

 

[Kaltias]

So Selvaria -> At least High 8-C, possibly higher

Alicia -> At least High 8-C, likely higher

Edelweiss -> At least 8-C, likely High 8-C

Shamrock -> At least 8-C

Sounds good for everybody?

 

[Theglassman12]

this looks gravy to me.

 

[Kaltias]

Quick addition: Forcefield Creation for Alicia and Selvaria

 

[Naberius_Buster]

Tanks do take tread damage to things like grenades, mortars (both tank and field gun versions), and anti-tank mines (they are immune to anti-personal ones), but the main body itself is proofed against them. I just had to get that minor correction in.

I would take a Heavy Tank over a Tank Destroyer due to two turrets, much better armor and durability, and better evasive options thanks to the advantage of turrets over the TD's fixed gun and lacking armor (slightly inferior to the Medium Tank).

The Lupus is an (overpowered) Heavy Tank, not a Tank Destroyer. 360 degree turret says hi.

Since you are so pixel count happy are you going to get an estimate on how far away Alicia was from Ghirlandaio when Selvaria used the Final Flame to get a minimum safe distance for that (presumably from comparing Alicia to the west wall of the fortress in both gameplay and in that cutscene)? Bonus points if you could calculate the destructive force of that first blast that leveled the southern tower before the main blast went off.

 

[Kaltias]

@Nab

Was talking about AP. Tank Destroyers hit way harder than a Heavy Tank, and the Lupus hits way harder than both.

I can almost definitely calc that but it will take a while

 

[Naberius_Buster]

I see, might want to specify next time since I took it as a general tier list.

I got done watching a VC3 Let's Play and have made some interesting observations:

In VC3's account of the Battle of Naggiar Selvaria wipes out a Gallian Vehicle Squadron in 3 minutes (https://youtu.be/yXj9UjIU5Is?t=1206, 20:05 to 20:25). Unfortunately the number of vehicles in a Squadron is a bit hard to pin down, but if you use the current US military as a yard stick you would get 42 or so tanks (counter opinions welcome). She would destroy a tank every 4 and a quarter seconds this way, or if she busts them 3 at a time like she did in VC1 she would be firing off a blast nearly once every 13 seconds. This only really helps pin down her rate of fire rather than improve her AP.

We also have Riela blowing a Ballistic Missile (the engine part at least) out of the air immediately after it launches (heading straight up), but this doesn't seem to be anything particularly out of the ordinary for her.

There is also that DLC episode (https://valkyria.wikia.com/wiki/A_Secret_Power) where Riela was able to hold out against an Imperial force while she had to wait for the rest of the squad to arrive, and she does this with a Valkyrian knife. The only problem here is that this DLC remains untranslated, so we can't tell if she was able to tank small arms fire with the knife or just dodged it, or if the knife was just as taxing (causing her to overheat) for her as the standard Valkyrian arms or not.

In the VC3 OVA (based on the Isara DLC for VC3) Riela rapidly switches targets from a pair of artillery guns to the shells that they have fired (by raising the lance), and she does this mid-beam charge (https://youtu.be/JZv75sBzuNk?t=65. Starts pulling out the lance at 1:05, starts charging it at 1:48, and redirects it at 1:58.). This is a great showing of both reactions, accuracy, and eyesight, and would further aid assorted Valkyria in intercepting projectiles and enemies (to a lesser extent) of similar speeds, and hilariously enough make aircraft in the VC world even more vulnerable than they already were. Attacking a Valkyria in a Dive Bomber or by strafing with a Fighter would be suicide.

Well I guess that is it until VC4 releases in the west. Have fun.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Naberius I don't think it's fair to compare the tank numbers to "current US military" since the VC series takes place in a fictional WW2 setting. It's better to look at how much vehicles in a squadron was common back in the WW2 era.

 

[Naberius_Buster]

I found something in VC1 that might help with calculating Selvaria's Final Flame.

Almost every map in VC1 has a grid layer on it complete with numbers, which include Ghirlandaio's interior as well.

The playable area of Ghirlandaio roughly fits in a 4 by 2.5 grid, for a square area of roughly 10 grid spaces.

Other maps in the game by comparison give the following results:

Vegetable Route Incident/Edy Detachment: irregular 1.3 by 2.25 (a bit over 2 square grid spaces)

Vasel Riverside: irregular 1.75 by 2 (too difficult to calculate area)

Upper Fouze: 3.75 by 3.7 (12.6 square grid spaces)

The Warehouse District/Randgriz Port (no grid numbers though): 3 by 3.5 (10.5 square grid spaces)

Does this seem to be consistent enough to work with?

The only issue with the grid is that it moves slightly with the camera, so measurements might by slightly off, and the results would be skewed towards the low end.

@Theglassman12 You do realize I asked for second opinions on that, right?

 

[Theglassman12]

I know you did, I gave my counter opinions to your suggestion.

 

[Kaltias]

@Nab

That sounds useful, i'll calc it eventually.

Also, i made a recalc of the feat that gave me 8-C+ as a result.

Honestly i'd say that tanks in general could be High 8-C at that point.

Not sure if Selvaria's and Alicia's scaling chain is enough to justify 8-B, but personally i'd say so

 

[Xanxussama1010]

I guess that 8-B Selvaria and Alicia is ok since now even light tank should be High 8-C. And with Selvaria chain scaling, saying that she is at least 5.5x stronger than light tank is not something that exaggerate.

 

[Kaltias]

B U M P

 

[Schnee_One]

I guess that 8-B Selvaria and Alicia is ok since now even light tank should be High 8-C. And with Selvaria chain scaling, saying that she is at least 5.5x stronger than light tank is not something that exaggerate.

The Edelweiss is the Light Tank?

Also I disagree on 8B Selvaria and Alicia. At most maybe a +

 

[Kaltias]

The Edelweiss is a Medium Tank mounting the cannon of a tank destroyer.

Also, no "+" without a calc.

 

[Kaltias]

Alicia (One shot Selvaria) >>> Selvaria (Impervious to any attack from any known weapon) >>> Marmota (Outclasses the Batomys in every conceivable way, only damaged by Valkyrur weaponry) >>> Batomys (Immune to AT weaponry unless already critically damaged) >>> Lupus (Literally an enhanced tank destroyer superior in every category) >>> Edelweiss (Same cannon as a Tank Destroyer) = Tank Destroyer (Obliterates heavy tanks) >>> Heavy Tank (Far superior to medium tanks) >>> Medium Tank (Far superior to light tanks) >>> Light Tank (Takes no damage from mortars) >>> Mortar (The feat calced, 1,6 tons).

For reference, baseline 8-B is only slightly more than nine times the feat at the bottom. I honestly don't see how Selvaria is below that.

 

[Naberius_Buster]

I would be careful about saying that the Edelweiss has a Tank Destroyer tier gun, since that only holds true for the VC universe, as it is a bit anemic when compared to some of the heavier WW2 TD guns.

Yeah the Lupus is superior to the TD in the tank busting stats, but it can be compared to the Heavy Tank because they both use a 122mm cannon. The Lupus's version is way longer though, and that is why you are comparing it to the TD.

The thought of Selvaria being only 5.5 times as strong as a piece of garbage Imperial Light Tank bugs me (the Gallian Light Tanks are markedly better than them, both in gameplay and lore).

 

[Kaltias]

Bump.

Also, shouldn't Alicia's and Selvaria's Low-Mid regen be in base?

It's extremely heavily implied that the reason why Riela survived the five missions where everyone else died was thanks to her Regenerationn powers.

Also it makes sense when you think that Mysterious Body works while they are in base