Vegito vs Gogeta

[Mickey1940]

This is a question i wanted to ask for a long time


Current Gogeta vs (theoretical) Current Vegito

Fusion lasts till death

otherwise SBA

Battle takes place in World of Void


Who would win in this situation?

 

[ZERO7772]

Should be a tie no? According to V-jump they are equals and Goku didn't make any claim on whatever Gogeta was weaker or stronger than Vegito.

 

[Mickey1940]

Should be a tie no? According to V-jump they are equals and Goku didn't make any claim on whatever Gogeta was weaker or stronger than Vegito.

I mean, skills and techniques are a thing, but I didn't know that they were considered equal now.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I would say Gogeta. He was capable of using Super Saiyan and Blue for extended periods of time and conclusively defeating Broly whereas Vegito has never conclusively won a fight before and consistently defuses due to his cockiness (albeit he had reasons in the Buu saga for it).

I also find Gogeta's assortment of techniques far more impressive such as his rapid barrage of lasers, ability to paralyze the opponent, forcing his ki into the opponent and exploding it internally, etc. To my memory all Vegito really has going for him is barriers and his ki blade which isn't even remotely comparable to Gogeta.

If we treated them as the same person with different names then OBVIOUSLY Vegito would win due to time limit advantage (60 mins vs 30 mins) but as different characters? This is basically Black arc Vegito equalized to Broly movie Gogeta and nothing more.

So, yeah. I would give this to Gogeta due to better techniques and being less cocky.

 

[HST_Master]

I mean, skills and techniques are a thing, but I didn't know that they were considered equal now.

They're literally equal in Skill. They're essentially different versions of the same person: A combination of Goku and Vegeta.

 

[GigaSPX]

I would say Gogeta. He was capable of using Super Saiyan and Blue for extended periods of time and conclusively defeating Broly whereas Vegito has never conclusively won a fight before and consistently defuses due to his cockiness (albeit he had reasons in the Buu saga for it).
I also find Gogeta's assortment of techniques far more impressive such as his rapid barrage of lasers, ability to paralyze the opponent, forcing his ki into the opponent and exploding it internally, etc. To my memory all Vegito really has going for him is barriers and his ki blade which isn't even remotely comparable to Gogeta.

If we treated them as the same person with different names then OBVIOUSLY Vegito would win due to time limit advantage (60 mins vs 30 mins) but as different characters? This is basically Black arc Vegito equalized to Broly movie Gogeta and nothing more.

So, yeah. I would give this to Gogeta due to better techniques and being less cocky.

I agree FRA. Although I don't think Vegito really lasts the full hour like they claim they would in the series. Vegito's time is severely shortened as soon as he went Blue. Then it got cut off when he was about to perform his finisher with Final Kamehameha in Blue.

Gogeta lasted the whole fight and even after Broly was sent away. Gogeta remained in blue and teleported to doingsto Freiza before he was about to shoot the spaceship. So really, best boi Gogeta!

 

[Mickey1940]

In case y'all haven't realized, fusion time is infinite in this fight.........

 

[Mickey1940]

I mean, skills and techniques are a thing, but I didn't know that they were considered equal now.

They're literally equal in Skill. They're essentially different versions of the same person: A combination of Goku and Vegeta.
I mean they have showcased different techniques, but that's a good point

 

[ZERO7772]

Vegito time limit was PIS so Trunks finish Zamasu, they wanted to sell dim vegito toys while giving Trunks the kill at the last min hence why Vegito was lackluster.

It makes no sense for him to be the only character with 10 min fusion time limit.

 

[Mickey1940]

Vegito time limit was PIS so Trunks finish Zamasu, they wanted to sell dim vegito toys while giving Trunks the kill at the last min hence why Vegito was lackluster.
It makes no sense for him to be the only character with 10 min fusion time limit.

Arguing Time Limits is redundant in this thread because I made both fusion times infinite

 

[HST_Master]

Actually the Final Kamehameha was what burnt out the Fusion in the anime, not Blue.

 

[HST_Master]

Vegito time limit was PIS so Trunks finish Zamasu, they wanted to sell dim vegito toys while giving Trunks the kill at the last min hence why Vegito was lackluster.

It makes no sense for him to be the only character with 10 min fusion time limit.

There's always SSJ4 Gogeta.

 

[GigaSPX]

Vegito time limit was PIS so Trunks finish Zamasu, they wanted to sell dim vegito toys while giving Trunks the kill at the last min hence why Vegito was lackluster.

It makes no sense for him to be the only character with 10 min fusion time limit.

There's always SSJ4 Gogeta.

SSJ4 Gogeta can't be compared here since current Gogeta is Super Saiyan Blue, and the latter is most superior as he conclusively defeated his enemy and did not run out of time after using his god Kamehameha.

 

[HST_Master]

I mean in regards to having his fusion be reduced to 10 mins like Vegito did.

 

[Deviljinyes]

Hold up hold up didn't akira Toriyama say in terms of power the Potara is more powerful?

 

[Mickey1940]

Hold up hold up didn't akira Toriyama say in terms of power the Potara is more powerful?

not anymore

they r equal now apparantly

 

[HST_Master]

Hold up hold up didn't akira Toriyama say in terms of power the Potara is more powerful?

He never said this. Like at all.

 

[Mickey1940]

bump

 

[Ovrhide]

Hold up hold up didn't akira Toriyama say in terms of power the Potara is more powerful?

Toriyama himself never said this, the old kai did but thats likely not a thing currently, as both were currently stated to be around the same level.

 

[JackJoyce]

With time limits Gogeta goes KKx20 and stomps. Without time limit I'm afraid it's extremely close

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The only way to argue this, legitimately, is to compare their techniques as separate characters. The timer in-itself does not influence much, considering Gogeta has never defused on-screen (outside of GT) so we can assume his techniques are far less draining than Vegito's Final Kamehameha.

In regards to techniques...I would give this to Gogeta. Vegito only really has his Spirit Sword, Barrier and Final Kamehameha over Gogeta. The Final Kamehameha, while extremely powerful, would drain Vegito of most of his energy so if he can't set it up...it could turn out bad. Spirit Sword doesn't do much for Vegito, outside of range and surprise stabs I guess. His best ability for this fight is his shielding which could prove difficult for Gogeta.

Gogeta has his own shield, rendering Vegito's advantage moot, Stardust Fall which is an extremely powerful and oppressive laser barrage and God Punisher which consists of two extremely powerful energy blasts followed by a barrage of strong energy blasts.Gogeta also has Stardust Breaker aka Soul Punisher which, while questionable in the film as being Stardust Breaker, could prove extremely powerful.

Overall, Gogeta spams powerful and oppressive techniques continously AND has access to barriers whereas the only unique techniques Vegito has would be Final Kamehameha (which would waste all of his energy if it fails), Spirit Sword (which likely wouldn't penetrate Gogeta's barriers) and his own barriers.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I would also have to note that Gogeta's Light Pillar is described as Gogeta collecting Ki, internally, in the opponent and then detonating it. So I don't see how Vegito would seriously counter it.

 

[Mickey1940]

I'm pretty sure Gogeta doesn't have Soul Punisher canonically

even if he did the Soul Punisher wouldn't work on Vegito, since it actually purifies evil beings

Also, you have to remember that most of these 2 character's moves involve no actual hax, just blasting each other with energy blasts and punching. Thus, with this in mind, my vote would go to Vegito.

His Spirit Sword isn't anything to scoff at. Unlike energy blasts, which require a constant stream of energy to be outputted, Vegito's sword only needs 1 usage of energy and he can manipulate that amount of energy without constantly having to apply more.

Thus, in the long run, I think Vegito could take this. He could deflect ki blasts with his sword, or he could dodge them with Instant Transmission. Since Gogeta in-character spams large energy attacks (and Vegito in-character punches people), all Vegito needs to do is wait for him to tire out.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What are you even quantifying here? 'Stream of energy to be outputted' what does that even mean? What part of the series even remotely specifies that such a differenation exists? How is he deflecting ki blasts from a person with equivalent power? How is he dodging attacks from someone of equal speed and power with instant transmission?

Seriously, your argument isn't making sense. Gogeta has energy barriers, he has instant transmission and he didn't defuse on-screen against Broly so we have zero reason to believe his attacks are even remotely draining. We have multiple instances of Vegito defusing and we have one instance of him defusing due to his strongest attack draining most of his energy.

Can you actually provide some form of evidence that Vegito's Spirit Sword would be even remotely useful against Gogeta?

 

[Mickey1940]

1. It means that Gogeta has to constantly output energy to maintain his attacks, while Vegito doesn't need to use much energy for his sword. Imagine Gogeta has a hose, and Vegito has a giant popsicle that never melts until he wills it to. Gogeta has to constalty shoot water out of the hose to attack Vegito, while Vegito doesn't. I hope that made it slightly more clear about what I meant.

2. I was under the impression that Vegito could possibly deflect energy blasts to an extent with his sword. Like, slice blasts out of the air and stuff. Since it's condensed energy. And I think the Zamasus have done so before as well.

3. Did you read the rules? I made it so neither of them can defuse till they die.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

1. It means that Gogeta has to constantly output energy to maintain his attacks, while Vegito doesn't need to use much energy for his sword. Imagine Gogeta has a hose, and Vegito has a giant popsicle that never melts until he wills it to. Gogeta has to constalty shoot water out of the hose to attack Vegito, while Vegito doesn't. I hope that made it slightly more clear about what I meant.
2. I was under the impression that Vegito could possibly deflect energy blasts to an extent with his sword. Like, slice blasts out of the air and stuff. Since it's condensed energy. And I think the Zamasus have done so before as well.

3. Did you read the rules? I made it so neither of them can defuse till they die.

1. Gogeta spams singular lasers and blasts. He doesn't spam attacks like the Kamehameha. So your argument is mostly irrelevant.

2. Perhaps, but that would require his sword to be sharp enough to slice through Gogeta's attacks however Gogeta spams ki blasts and lasers in-character and can swiftly create ki barriers to block attacks, so unless Vegito's sword can easily pierce Gogeta's barrier or slash through countless energy attacks from someone equal to him in speed and power...I doubt it would work out.

3. That's not the point I am making. I am referring to Vegito's energy output being far greater than Gogeta's, considering Vegito has defused prematurely in the Black arc due to the Final Kamehameha and may have defused prematurely in the Buu saga. Gogeta seemingly does not have these weaknesses in his efficiency of attacks and transformations.

I would also like to note that Gogeta may, in-fact, have Goku's God Bind technique. He clearly paralyzes Broly before lifting him to the air and exploding his body internally. So Gogeta may canonically have access to some form of paralysis.

Generally speaking, Gogeta uses singular shot attacks with tremendous power and force and seeks to overwhelm his opponents as quickly as possible. The vast majority of his attacks are either built on ridiculous pressure (via spam) or ridiculous power (such as his Full Power Kamehameha or Light Pillar).

Vegito focuses more on kicks and punches with his Spirit Sword used ocassionally. He has some pressuring attacks but they lack Gogeta's Danmaku properties or his power. His only attack of particular power is the Final Kamehameha but it nearly completely drains him of his energy.

Gogeta can spam barriers on reflex that block Vegito's kicks, punches and Spirit Sword. Gogeta can use Instant Transmission to dodge out of the way of the Final Kamehameha (which Vegito would only be able to use if he can stun or trap Gogeta long enough). Vegito has little to no feats of handling the absurd pressure of Gogeta's techniques.

Overall, based on actual feats of technical prowess and fighting style Gogeta trumps Vegito. Despite Gogeta's attacks being far more numerous and packing more of a punch, we have no reason to believe they are draining due to Gogeta not defusing on-screen.

 

[JackJoyce]

Very good analysis by Cryo

 

[Mickey1940]

1. It means that Gogeta has to constantly output energy to maintain his attacks, while Vegito doesn't need to use much energy for his sword. Imagine Gogeta has a hose, and Vegito has a giant popsicle that never melts until he wills it to. Gogeta has to constalty shoot water out of the hose to attack Vegito, while Vegito doesn't. I hope that made it slightly more clear about what I meant.
2. I was under the impression that Vegito could possibly deflect energy blasts to an extent with his sword. Like, slice blasts out of the air and stuff. Since it's condensed energy. And I think the Zamasus have done so before as well.

3. Did you read the rules? I made it so neither of them can defuse till they die.

1. Gogeta spams singular lasers and blasts. He doesn't spam attacks like the Kamehameha. So your argument is mostly irrelevant.
2. Perhaps, but that would require his sword to be sharp enough to slice through Gogeta's attacks however Gogeta spams ki blasts and lasers in-character and can swiftly create ki barriers to block attacks, so unless Vegito's sword can easily pierce Gogeta's barrier or slash through countless energy attacks from someone equal to him in speed and power...I doubt it would work out.

3. That's not the point I am making. I am referring to Vegito's energy output being far greater than Gogeta's, considering Vegito has defused prematurely in the Black arc due to the Final Kamehameha and may have defused prematurely in the Buu saga. Gogeta seemingly does not have these weaknesses in his efficiency of attacks and transformations.

I would also like to note that Gogeta may, in-fact, have Goku's God Bind technique. He clearly paralyzes Broly before lifting him to the air and exploding his body internally. So Gogeta may canonically have access to some form of paralysis.

Generally speaking, Gogeta uses singular shot attacks with tremendous power and force and seeks to overwhelm his opponents as quickly as possible. The vast majority of his attacks are either built on ridiculous pressure (via spam) or ridiculous power (such as his Full Power Kamehameha or Light Pillar).

Vegito focuses more on kicks and punches with his Spirit Sword used ocassionally. He has some pressuring attacks but they lack Gogeta's Danmaku properties or his power. His only attack of particular power is the Final Kamehameha but it nearly completely drains him of his energy.

Gogeta can spam barriers on reflex that block Vegito's kicks, punches and Spirit Sword. Gogeta can use Instant Transmission to dodge out of the way of the Final Kamehameha (which Vegito would only be able to use if he can stun or trap Gogeta long enough). Vegito has little to no feats of handling the absurd pressure of Gogeta's techniques.

Overall, based on actual feats of technical prowess and fighting style Gogeta trumps Vegito. Despite Gogeta's attacks being far more numerous and packing more of a punch, we have no reason to believe they are draining due to Gogeta not defusing on-screen.

1. Understood, but it's still a fact that Gogeta will likely be using more energy with his attacks alone in comparison to Vegito

2. It's not like Vegito's sword is gonna break after one attack. Since it's condensed energy, it should logically be at the very least be able to resists many attacks before shattering, and even then he can just make another one. Plus his sword ran Corrupt Fusion Zamasu, who was pretty much equal to him at the time, straight through very easily.

3. This is a theoretical Current Vegito. Thus, none of the endurance factors should matter, especially since these 2 should be equal in power and fusion stability. Also, this Vegito should also have the abilities of his fusees, which include the God Bind as well.


You gotta remember that this Vegito does not have the mindset or moveset of Goku Black Arc Vegito. Therefore, although the fusions might not have each other's moves, they should both have the powers of Goku and Vegeta. Which includes barriers, IT, God Bind, and many, many more. Honestly, the only real difference I can see here are the movesets, and even then there aren't too many differences.

I'm not trying to manipulate the rules to force a victory for Vegito, considering I havent edited them for over a month. In fact, i haven't changed them since I made it. I was just wondering who would win in a fight as of right now, so please don't assume so, if you have at all.

Although I do agree that you have many good points. I might be wrong about the Final Kamehameha's after-effects in terms of stamina. If I am wrong, then Vegito would indeed lose if he used it carelessly, which he probably wouldn't

 

[CryoTheMayo]

"It's not like Vegito's sword is gonna break after one attack. Since it's condensed energy, it should logically be at the very least be able to resists many attacks before shattering, and even then he can just make another one. Plus his sword ran Corrupt Fusion Zamasu, who was pretty much equal to him at the time, straight through very easily."

Gogeta is completely equal to Vegito in power but Gogeta has Danmaku attacks and spams energy in-character. My argument is that Vegito will not be capable of slashing through all of Gogeta's attacks when they should be equal in power and speed.

"This is a theoretical Current Vegito. Thus, none of the endurance factors should matter, especially since these 2 should be equal in power and fusion stability. Also, this Vegito should also have the abilities of his fusees, which include the God Bind as well."

We have confirmed instances of Vegito defusing on-screen but no instances of Gogeta defusing as a result of instability. These are two different fusion methods so we can not ascertain that they have the same stability. As a result, I am forced to claim that Gogeta's attacks likely drain little to no energy whereas Vegito's ultimate attack, FInal Kamehameha, does.

You could argue for Vegito having God Bind however Gogeta has used God Bind whereas Vegito has not so I can not conclusively state that Vegito would use God Bind in-character. To add further, if we use the argument that they have access to all of the techniques of the fusees (including ones the fusions have never used) then it brings into question why Gogeta can not use Spirit Sword and Final Kamehameha or why Vegito can not use Stardust Fall or Stardust Breaker. As such, I would prefer to argue this from the perspective that they only have access to techniques they have actually used in-character.

"You gotta remember that this Vegito does not have the mindset or moveset of Goku Black Arc Vegito."

Why would his mindset/personality be any different?

"Therefore, although the fusions might not have each other's moves"

The moves are a result of the fusion's mindset and how they utilise their inherited abilities. Vegito can use all of Gogeta's abilities and so can Gogeta use all of Vegito's abilities. The entire differenation is that they have different fighting styles and personalities so they adopt different techniques and different combinations.

If this argument treats Vegito and Gogeta as being homogeneous then there is no debate to be had. The fight would be inconclusive as they are virtually identical. The only way to have a reasonable debate is to use ONLY the techniques and abilities that the two fusions have used in-character canonically.

With the perspective that we can only use techniques used canonically by the fusions, I come to the conclusion that Gogeta would defeat Vegito due to his ridiculous spam and power simply overpowering Vegito's own unique techniques and usage of Goku and Vegeta's abilities, as well as Gogeta having used paralysis techniques canonically.

If we were to consider Dragon Ball Heroes then Vegito would stomp due to him having access to Kaio-Ken Blue whereas Gogeta has never used Kaio-Ken in Heroes, to my memory.

 

[Mickey1940]

Fair analysis, but are you saying that the only way for this fight to be an actual debate is for them to ONLY use the moves they have shown on-screen? cause if so then obviously Gogeta stomps cause the only moves Vegito shown on-screen are the Final Kamehameha and Spirit Sword. No IT, no anything else.

also, i'm pretty sure DBX Gogeta never even used SSGSS

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Fair analysis, but are you saying that the only way for this fight to be an actual debate is for them to ONLY use the moves they have shown on-screen? cause if so then obviously Gogeta stomps cause the only moves Vegito shown on-screen are the Final Kamehameha and Spirit Sword. No IT, no anything else.
also, i'm pretty sure DBX Gogeta never even used SSGSS

The interesting difference between Vegito and Gogeta is that, Vegito is a physical fighter. He does not use many energy techniques and the ones that he does use augments his physical attacks (Spirit Sword and Savage Strike). Gogeta doesn't augment himself or focus on physical attacks like Vegito, he instead likes to use flashy and spammy energy attacks.

Essentially, this argument is akin to Fighter vs Mage (If the Mage was a muscular martial artist that liked punching people). Gogeta simply has the range advantage and the projectile advantage. Vegito's toolset simply isn't equipped to manage the type of techniques Gogeta likes to use.

Vegito HAS used Instant Transmission on-screen however, he used it against Zamasu with a ki-clad punch. As sourced here: https://youtu.be/aA-YetL__5Q?t=936

DBX (Xeno?) Gogeta only uses Super Saiyan 4, yes but so does Xeno Vegito. It's CC Vegito that uses SSBKK. I'm pretty sure CC Gogeta doesn't exist yet but DBS Gogeta is in Heroes.

 

[Mickey1940]

interesting

 

[Xenomorphios]

This will end up Either inconclusive or Vegito winning, Why?

Vegito's timelimit is x2 the amount and they are the same being just with a different fusion.

For Vegito it depends, if Goku and Vegito are equal in power then Gogeta = Vegito but If Goku>/<Vegeta then Vegito>Gogeta. I can see them fighting in ssj god like how ssj god Gogeta fought jiren in that what if video to save energy and go blue for burst attacks.

Gogeta is a ranged fighter while Vegito is a physical Fighter which balances them out.

 

[Mickey1940]

This will end up Either inconclusive or Vegito winning, Why?
Vegito's timelimit is x2 the amount and they are the same being just with a different fusion.

For Vegito it depends, if Goku and Vegito are equal in power then Gogeta = Vegito but If Goku>/<Vegeta then Vegito>Gogeta. I can see them fighting in ssj god like how ssj god Gogeta fought jiren in that what if video to save energy and go blue for burst attacks.

Gogeta is a ranged fighter while Vegito is a physical Fighter which balances them out.

1. Read the rules. Both fusions last untill death

2. Goku and Vegeta are basically equal at this point

 

[HST_Master]

This will end up Either inconclusive or Vegito winning, Why?

Vegito's timelimit is x2 the amount and they are the same being just with a different fusion.

For Vegito it depends, if Goku and Vegito are equal in power then Gogeta = Vegito but If Goku>/<Vegeta then Vegito>Gogeta. I can see them fighting in ssj god like how ssj god Gogeta fought jiren in that what if video to save energy and go blue for burst attacks.

Gogeta is a ranged fighter while Vegito is a physical Fighter which balances them out.

This has never been proven at all. Not to mention Time Limits are removed.

 

[Mickey1940]

This will end up Either inconclusive or Vegito winning, Why?

Vegito's timelimit is x2 the amount and they are the same being just with a different fusion.

For Vegito it depends, if Goku and Vegito are equal in power then Gogeta = Vegito but If Goku>/<Vegeta then Vegito>Gogeta. I can see them fighting in ssj god like how ssj god Gogeta fought jiren in that what if video to save energy and go blue for burst attacks.

Gogeta is a ranged fighter while Vegito is a physical Fighter which balances them out.

This has never been proven at all. Not to mention Time Limits are removed.

To be fair, Xenomorphios does have a point. Any difference between Goku's and Vegeta's powers will matter for the fusions. Potara fuses two people together regardless of power level, while Fusion Dance only works with people of equal power. Meaning that whoever is stronger has to supress themselves while performing the fusion. Thus, the Fusion Dance fusion would logically be weaker than the Potara fusion, since Potara doesn't have this restriction.

Unfortunately, it's safe to assume that Goku and Vegeta are neck-in-neck at this point in DB Super, so Vegito and Gogeta would logically be exactly equal in power

 

[Xenomorphios]

This will end up Either inconclusive or Vegito winning, Why?

Vegito's timelimit is x2 the amount and they are the same being just with a different fusion.

For Vegito it depends, if Goku and Vegito are equal in power then Gogeta = Vegito but If Goku>/<Vegeta then Vegito>Gogeta. I can see them fighting in ssj god like how ssj god Gogeta fought jiren in that what if video to save energy and go blue for burst attacks.

Gogeta is a ranged fighter while Vegito is a physical Fighter which balances them out.

This has never been proven at all. Not to mention Time Limits are removed.

To be fair, Xenomorphios does have a point. Any difference between Goku's and Vegeta's powers will matter for the fusions. Potara fuses two people together regardless of power level, while Fusion Dance only works with people of equal power. Meaning that whoever is stronger has to supress themselves while performing the fusion. Thus, the Fusion Dance fusion would logically be weaker than the Potara fusion, since Potara doesn't have this restriction.
Unfortunately, it's safe to assume that Goku and Vegeta are neck-in-neck at this point in DB Super, so Vegito and Gogeta would logically be exactly equal in power

Pretty much an hypothical Gogeta vs Vegito in the buu saga would lead to Vegito beating Gogeta (The fight would be similar to Goten vs Trunks but much more intense)


If they are equal in power and no time limit....


INCONCLUSIVE, the fight will just end up both of them getting knocked out.

 

[Mickey1940]

Cryo actually had quite an elaborate analysis on these 2 in an earlier comment. Maybe you should check it out

 

[HST_Master]

This has never been proven at all. Not to mention Time Limits are removed.
To be fair, Xenomorphios does have a point. Any difference between Goku's and Vegeta's powers will matter for the fusions. Potara fuses two people together regardless of power level, while Fusion Dance only works with people of equal power. Meaning that whoever is stronger has to supress themselves while performing the fusion. Thus, the Fusion Dance fusion would logically be weaker than the Potara fusion, since Potara doesn't have this restriction.

Unfortunately, it's safe to assume that Goku and Vegeta are neck-in-neck at this point in DB Super, so Vegito and Gogeta would logically be exactly equal in power

Except this has never been said or proven, it's entirely a baseless assumption.

 

[Mickey1940]

it actually has i think. When Goten and Trunks fused for the second time (i think), Trunks had to lower his own power level for the fusion to work. In Potara's case, we never see this happen