VS Battle Rules Loophole: Eternal Moment Paradox

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Also i want to ask, how medaka return her own time? In her profile is stated, if she erase something with her minus she cant return it.

She is erasing the time frame of her actions, not stopping and then resuming time. Instead of her, for example, stopping time and cleaning the house, and then resuming it after she is done, she would simply erase the time frame that it took to clean the house so she is done instantly. Make sense?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

itjustworks.png

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

And as GLHF22 asked, how does Medaka "dispel" it if she can't regain the time after erasing it?

She erases the actions individually.

 

[The_Causality]

All Fiction isn't retroactive at activation AF just make stuff never happened via Erasing Causality, but the activation is "still causal", nothing less nothing more

And I don't see any difficult thing to Understand about AF's pseudo Time stop, it simply erase the time of the user's actions, this allow him to get an Infinite Speed amplification, to make actions instantanously. so i don't know why people said things like "Acausal being with type X/Y/Z" or "Time resistant user" can resist to this since it affect only the user.

It's like said that being resistant to Time abilities make you being able to keep up with someone which can move at infinite speed.

 

[NeoSuperior]

So if Speed Equalized bloodlusted Medaka used All Fiction for the pseudo-time stop and the enemy opened with an an instantanously activated instant kill attack that can kill Medaka without chance for ressurrection, would Medaka die?

The whole "retroactive" argument was that somehow the pseudo Time Stop would activate first... somehow... because it's supposedly faster than instantanous or something like that. But faster than Speed-equalized thought unit + 0 seconds innate ability activation time means it would be negative and therefore affect the past and therefore can't be said to ignore resistances anymore. Some people wanted to make it so there is absolutely no time window for Medaka to be killed at the beginning of a fight, I guess.

I don't have any issues if the whole "retroactive" non-sense is not a part of it, since it would actually just potentially weaken the ability since with it the ability could be resisted.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

At that point its just a coin flip, or Inconclusive.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Causality

Isn't "making things so they never happened" a retroactive effect though?

 

[The_Causality]

The activation isn't retroactive, the effect is but the activation itself is still causal, so still need time, even with the pseudo time stop this is the whole difference

We overcomplicate stuffs when it is pretty easy to understand

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes but the effect is what counts no?

Example: Medaka erases, but you didn't stop existing now, but rather never did, the fact that you never did exist, means that your ability was never activated either etc.

It was a similar case with Jill. She can null you by fate haxing your past, so it's not that your ability stopped working now, but rather you didn't gain it to begin with.

 

[NeoSuperior]

But Anyone with Causality Manipulation would be affected by that since you'd be "stealing" the short moment away from them. Basically were are back to "it affects any observers" with that.

 

[First_Witch]

AF doing stuff to another person is yes, resisted by causality resistance and acausality. Time erasure is not as i explained above.

 

[The_Causality]

Yes but the effect is what counts no?
Example: Medaka erases, but you didn't stop existing now, but rather never did, the fact that you never did exist, means that your ability was never activated either etc.

It only precised stuff which are negated, not "everything" it's like said "Kuma make never happened Zenkichi's existence, so the fact that he erased zenkichi didn't exist" or at least we have no proof of this extend of All Fiction which erase all the causality of a being when he is erased, it's better to treat this as we always treated all fiction

Anyway, First Witch-boi and I have the same opinion about the Time Erasure, i think this thread need to be closed soon.

 

[NeoSuperior]

Soo... upon speed equalized activation of pseudo-time stop vs instant kill who wins now? Does the opponent having causality manipulation resistance and/or time manipulation resistance and/or some form of acausality make a difference or not?

 

[First_Witch]

Case by case. But the opponnet resisting those specific things wont save them from getting blitzed via AF, but causality resistance prevents them from getting erased. Instant death needs elaboration, because if it just kills Medaka then Medaka just revives via AF

 

[Firephoenixearl]

at least we have no proof of this extend of All Fiction which erase all the causality of a being when he is erased, it's better to treat this as we always treated all fictio
Anyway, First Witch-boi and I have the same opinion about the Time Erasure, i think this thread need to be closed soon.

Yes, but why would the mechanics change? If medaka erases the time for her action, wouldn't the time she erased from herself "never exist" and therefore "never activated" from her perspective.

I guess i should make a CRT or General Discussion on solving all of All Fiction just so that we're on the same page about everything.

And yes this can be closed, we all agree that it's simple speed amp.

 

[The_Causality]

@Neo Basically:

• Scenario 1: Passive ability Vs Bloodlust Medaka = Medaka lose (if she doesn't resist to passive)
• Scenario 2: Instant ability (mostly thought based attack) Vs Bloodlust Medaka = Varies (since it's "Medaka has Infinite speed with a thought" against "can kill the opponent with a thought" it varie from tha thought based attack, if it's "slower", Medaka could "avoid" with the infinite speed boost and win, if it isn't, Medaka could lose since even if she stats amp, she is affected at the same time as she infinite bosst so it varies

 

[Firephoenixearl]

But ok until the All Fiction CRT comes im ok with treating Time Erasure as non retroactive.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Besides the part where if the abilties kill her she revives and amps

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Besides the part where if the abilties kill her she revives and amps

Let's not complicate this further shall we?

 

[InfiniteSped]

The only mention of them erasing time is someone saying "What, it's like they're erasing the time it takes to attack!" (or something like that), iirc. It's not like they go into great length explaining, for a while I thought he just blitzed them and they assumed he had used All Fiction, since he has blitzed groups of people while he only had Bookmaker before.

The way I see it, they think "I'm gonna do this one thing", like screwing someone to the walls, activate it, then the thing is done. It just makes them do stuff instantenously. We never see it from the perspective of anyone who's using, so we don't know how long that can last. I don't see where people this "retroactively" thing is coming from.

 

[NeoSuperior]

With "instant kill" I meant something that negates resurrection. Not sure if Soul Manipulation would work.

Also if the opponent manages to activate an "instant death field" it should also work, right? Ressurrection would just lead to instant death again.

The issue is that SBA starting distance is 4km, which is beyond Medaka's detection range. Unless the causality manipulation somehow works on something as vague as "unknown enemy 4km away" or something.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I don't see where people this "retroactively" thing is coming from.

It's from other applications of All Fiction. I believe it is logical that it applies to all applications but there shall be a thread in the not distant future about that.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Also, I don't remember Medaka herself actually ever doing this, it's just something Misogi does from time to time. The use of her various powers is generally far from optimal.

 

[InfiniteSped]

I don't see where people this "retroactively" thing is coming from.

It's from other applications of All Fiction. I believe it is logical that it applies to all applications but there shall be a thread in the not distant future about that.

What other aplications?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also, I don't remember Medaka herself actually ever doing this, it's just something Misogi does from time to time. The use of her various powers is generally far from optimal.

Yes it is far from optimal. It is actually perfected and boosted by 20% over their original capacity.

 

[The_Causality]

Well, Fire agree to made a separate thread about "retroactive" (even if i don't think it is), since we resolved the problem about All Fiction's infinite speed amp (which was pretty simple), i think we can close this.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Also, I don't remember Medaka herself actually ever doing this, it's just something Misogi does from time to time. The use of her various powers is generally far from optimal.

Yes it is far from optimal. It is actually perfected and boosted by 20% over their original capacity.

The overall "power" of the skill is boosted, but her willingness to use them isn't, really. Only time she really used All Fiction, Scar Dead, Encounter, etc, was against Iihiko, iirc, and offscreen.

She never instantly erases time and haxes the enemy to death like a lot of people argue her.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

How willing she is to use a power =/= how she can use a power. She can use the powers better than anyone in verse, but won't usually use them, why are we getting into this?

 

[First_Witch]

@Infinite Speed

Youre right, in character she woudnt. Bloodlusted is another matter. And recent Medaka threads had her bloodlusted. We naturally aknowledged her weakness in character.

 

[NeoSuperior]

Actually the main purpose of this thread was about how a fight gets treated where an infinite speed amp/timestop gets used that can be maintained indefinitely both as an ability as well as the user, but if that "Character A" cannot deal any damage to "Character B" whatsoever (neither seal, incap or BFR). This also assumes "Character B" got a Universal range surefire ability that will definitly kill Character A (can't be dodged regardless of speed), but the ability needs a bit longer to activate.

In the timestop scenario it would just be an inconc since it would be kept up for all eternity, basically causing both characters to be pseudo-sealed together without anything ever being able to change.

In the infinite speed scenario, it'd be more iffy though, since Character B would not be actually "frozen". And the "eternity" would just be a subjective view of Character A. From Character B's PoV, it'd just end with the ability being used and winning, but would that really work like that if Character A never releases their speed amp? That's the Paradox here (I refined it a bit to differentiate the infinite speed amp version from the Timestop version).

 

[InfiniteSped]

How willing she is to use a power =/= how she can use a power. She can use the powers better than anyone in verse, but won't usually use them, why are we getting into this?

I said she doesn't her abilities optimally, and she doesn't. She could if she wanted to, but she barely uses them at all.

 

[The_Causality]

Actually the main purpose of this thread was about how a fight gets treated where an infinite speed amp/timestop gets used that can be maintained indefinitely both as an ability as well as the user, but if that "Character A" cannot deal any damage to "Character B" whatsoever (neither seal, incap or BFR). This also assumes "Character B" got a Universal range surefire ability that will definitly kill Character A (can't be dodged regardless of speed), but the ability needs a bit longer to activate.

Kumagawa can't kepp his Infinite speed amp indefinitely, but just until the end of his move (as he demonstrated)

so what is the problem?

 

[InfiniteSped]

So, the argument is that they retroactively erase the time it took to activate the ability, to make it activate instantenously, after having already activated it, which happened instantly because themselves in the future erased time for them?

I don't think anything is like that is ever even implied.

 

[The_Causality]

^Honestly, it's Headcanon imo

 

[NeoSuperior]

So it's like a "program" that needs to be decided on beforehand? Can it be recasted half-way through or does it require to properly "end" it first and then cast it anew?

 

[InfiniteSped]

So it's like a "program" that needs to be decided on beforehand? Can it be recasted half-way through or does it require to properly "end" it first and then cast it anew?

We don't really know. This ability is barely referenced, but the way you said is the way I always assumed it works.

 

[The_Causality]

So it's like a "program" that needs to be decided on beforehand? Can it be recasted half-way through or does it require to properly "end" it first and then cast it anew?

We don't know the mechanic so we just made the most safe assumption with what he demonstrated

It erase time until the user finished his move.

 

[InfiniteSped]

I mean, even if it could last indefinitely, I doubt they'd just keep it up forever, even if they couldn't defeat the enemy while time is "stopped". They certainly wouldn't do it IC, and being bloodlusted should mean they wouldn't just be happy to let the enemy sit there for all eternity while they themselves can't do anything either.

 

[The_Causality]

That's true, but the Case why this thread as been created is about Bloodlust Medaka, i hope we clairified the mechanic a bit.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Has anyone ever said that the inf amp lasts forever? Cus I don't remember anyone saying it. The move can last a long time depending on the action given but from a visual perspective it would take 0 seconds even if the order took decades from medakas perspective so it wouldn't guarantee an inconc either way as inconc takes real time as base.