WAHOOOO! Mario Bros AP Revisions - Part 2

[Armorchompy]

Then, how about one or more resistances for him? Say, like, Resistance to Gravity, Physics, and/or Space-Time Manipulation? Sound good?

No. You literally used him falling into a different black hole as evidence for it being realistic. And the environment isn't getting ravaged either.

 

[JPTheGamer]

No. You literally used him falling into a different black hole as evidence for it being realistic. And the environment isn't getting ravaged either.

Can we give him any resistance, then, or is that also a no?

 

[Saqphire]

Honestly I agree with Armourchompy on all of the points. I personally have always had a problem with Galaxy's planet feats as they are infamously unusable due to the size of the planets being no bigger than small rooms. This also applies to their galaxies btw, they aren't bigger than a city block lmfao

 

[Galactidot]

No. You literally used him falling into a different black hole as evidence for it being realistic. And the environment isn't getting ravaged either.

Yo check what I said on my thread, it's not a point, but a request

 

[LuckyEmile]

The genie has no UES or reason for this to scale to his offensive magic. In addition the planet is visibly tiny.

this was cool till Wario stood on it

Going back to this, I think it's worth pointing out that comments on the size of the planet might not be entirely valid. Whilst the planet may appear around Wario's size at first due to the visuals, to say this is actually the case seems to be forgetting the context of the feat. This planet is seen as a better reward than two large castles that visibly have multiple floors and rooms, and so are clearly much larger than Wario. For this planet to actually be tiny in-universe would make it more disappointing than these grand living spaces, so to actually believe it's a planet Wario couldn't even use as a place to live would defeat the point of it being the "best ending" to the game.

And yes, this doesn't necessarily prove the planet is an entire planet from there (the sheer difference in size between the castle and a planet is indeed huge), the fact we see cloud cover on the planet does imply a large enough size to sustain ecosystems. To add to this, you can simply see it as "a planet is a planet, you can't say it's only half", where the simplest conclusion is that when we're shown an Earth-like planet, the narrative intent was that it was indeed a planet, the visuals simply toning it down so it can show what it wants out of the cutscene on limited hardware. It's not uncommon in fiction for someone to be seen as much larger than a planet they threaten dominion over for a cool visual, Perfect Kars from JoJo being an example that comes to mind. (Whilst, yes, Galaxy does show small planetoids aren't unheard of in this franchise, that game established this many years after Wario Land came out, so there wasn't the tone set for such a concept just yet. If we were scaling this game when it came out, we wouldn't have that argument to fall back upon yet, so why assume the scene itself would consider that?)

I suppose just something I wanted to point out since it seems to be a recurring counter to the feat without actually looking deeper into the details surrounding it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Going back to this, I think it's worth pointing out that comments on the size of the planet might not be entirely valid. Whilst the planet may appear around Wario's size at first due to the visuals, to say this is actually the case seems to be forgetting the context of the feat. This planet is seen as a better reward than two large castles that visibly have multiple floors and rooms, and so are clearly much larger than Wario. For this planet to actually be tiny in-universe would make it more disappointing than these grand living spaces, so to actually believe it's a planet Wario couldn't even use as a place to live would defeat the point of it being the "best ending" to the game.

And yes, this doesn't necessarily prove the planet is an entire planet from there (the sheer difference in size between the castle and a planet is indeed huge), the fact we see cloud cover on the planet does imply a large enough size to sustain ecosystems. To add to this, you can simply see it as "a planet is a planet, you can't say it's only half", where the simplest conclusion is that when we're shown an Earth-like planet, the narrative intent was that it was indeed a planet, the visuals simply toning it down so it can show what it wants out of the cutscene on limited hardware. It's not uncommon in fiction for someone to be seen as much larger than a planet they threaten dominion over for a cool visual, Perfect Kars from JoJo being an example that comes to mind. (Whilst, yes, Galaxy does show small planetoids aren't unheard of in this franchise, that game established this many years after Wario Land came out, so there wasn't the tone set for such a concept just yet. If we were scaling this game when it came out, we wouldn't have that argument to fall back upon yet, so why assume the scene itself would consider that?)

This is a fair point. I still dunno if I'd be entirely comfortable with it being rated as 5-B, but either way I suppose it's better to emphasize the lack of UES rather than its size.

What if the genie just made wario really big

 

[Saqphire]

Going back to this, I think it's worth pointing out that comments on the size of the planet might not be entirely valid. Whilst the planet may appear around Wario's size at first due to the visuals, to say this is actually the case seems to be forgetting the context of the feat. This planet is seen as a better reward than two large castles that visibly have multiple floors and rooms, and so are clearly much larger than Wario. For this planet to actually be tiny in-universe would make it more disappointing than these grand living spaces, so to actually believe it's a planet Wario couldn't even use as a place to live would defeat the point of it being the "best ending" to the game.

And yes, this doesn't necessarily prove the planet is an entire planet from there (the sheer difference in size between the castle and a planet is indeed huge), the fact we see cloud cover on the planet does imply a large enough size to sustain ecosystems. To add to this, you can simply see it as "a planet is a planet, you can't say it's only half", where the simplest conclusion is that when we're shown an Earth-like planet, the narrative intent was that it was indeed a planet, the visuals simply toning it down so it can show what it wants out of the cutscene on limited hardware. It's not uncommon in fiction for someone to be seen as much larger than a planet they threaten dominion over for a cool visual, Perfect Kars from JoJo being an example that comes to mind. (Whilst, yes, Galaxy does show small planetoids aren't unheard of in this franchise, that game established this many years after Wario Land came out, so there wasn't the tone set for such a concept just yet. If we were scaling this game when it came out, we wouldn't have that argument to fall back upon yet, so why assume the scene itself would consider that?)

I suppose just something I wanted to point out since it seems to be a recurring counter to the feat without actually looking deeper into the details surrounding it.

This lowk reminds me of mfs who were arguing that the worlds in Minecraft were just finite because of hardware issues

But yeah, you make a good point.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Honestly I agree with Armourchompy on all of the points. I personally have always had a problem with Galaxy's planet feats as they are infamously unusable due to the size of the planets being no bigger than small rooms. This also applies to their galaxies btw, they aren't bigger than a city block lmfao

Would you at least be fine with these changes, then?

 

[SeijiSetto]

largely tangential question, why are you putting "up to 3.8 Yottatons" for all of the values
if something is actually meant to be a planet-bust by statements we just assume baseline 5-B, i.e. 59.44 Zettatons

 

[JPTheGamer]

largely tangential question, why are you putting "up to 3.8 Yottatons" for all of the values
if something is actually meant to be a planet-bust by statements we just assume baseline 5-B, i.e. 59.44 Zettatons

Didn't realize this; my bad.

 

[Saqphire]

Would you at least be fine with these changes, then?

Yh

 

[Zenith_Enigma]

Seems good to me.

 

[Duedate8898]

After looking over all the feats and reading this thread, I pretty much find myself agreeing with DDM said in their post here

Spoiler: DDM's Response

While I do agree Mario is heavily downplayed; I agree some of the listed feats/calculations are not valid or are kind of exaggerated.

This one is good.

Vague timeframe and what not.

That's more so a world conquest statement, not an AP feat.

A legit feat, but no real proof casual magic blasts downscale from ultimate wish granting ability.

This reminds me, you probably could use the idea that Mushroom Kingdom/DK Island planet is much larger than Earth due to how far down DK falls to get to the core. But either way seems to be either an overtime thing or more affiliated with transmutation rather than AP.

Grand Star reactor isn't even a real planet, and the explosion was High 3-A outright given the new lore updates, and based on new story book information, Lumas have apparently witness the same event in great magnitude. But you may to save that sort of revision for later if the OP's goal is a Tier 5 upgrade.

Still kind of vague


Cackletta's black holes are definitely not real black holes, but can't really speak against the other 2.

This one is alright to me.

What more I believe that Armor has outlined some real problems with the blackhole feats.

In otherwords, I only agree with the usage of Feat 1 and Feat 11 for any scaling here as all the others aren't strong enough for scaling the core cast to. The Genie (if they have a profile) should scale to their planet feat.

 

[Galactidot]

After looking over all the feats and reading this thread, I pretty much find myself agreeing with DDM said in their post here


What more I believe that Armor has outlined some real problems with the blackhole feats.

In otherwords, I only agree with the usage of Feat 1 and Feat 11 for any scaling here as all the others aren't strong enough for scaling the core cast to. The Genie (if they have a profile) should scale to their planet feat.

Agree with this!

 

[JPTheGamer]

After looking over all the feats and reading this thread, I pretty much find myself agreeing with DDM said in their post here


What more I believe that Armor has outlined some real problems with the blackhole feats.

In otherwords, I only agree with the usage of Feat 1 and Feat 11 for any scaling here as all the others aren't strong enough for scaling the core cast to. The Genie (if they have a profile) should scale to their planet feat.

What can I put you down as?

 

[Galactidot]

What can I put you down as?

They agree with High 5-A ^^

As that's the highest tier feat they agree with.

And if that doesn't pass for whatever reason, 5-C.

 

[Armorchompy]

High 5-A literally cannot be applied to any character, due to surface area. 5-C is just an outlier as things are, Mario isn't a verse that can be upgraded off one feat.

 

[Galactidot]

High 5-A literally cannot be applied to any character, due to surface area. 5-C is just an outlier as things are, Mario isn't a verse that can be upgraded off one feat.

Why is that so? Is it because of the anti-feats? Also please still tell me what you think I'm saying is headcanon in my thread I'm trying to compile something off of it

 

[Armorchompy]

Why is that so? Is it because of the anti-feats?

Correct

Also please still tell me what you think I'm saying is headcanon in my thread I'm trying to compile something off of it

I can't be more thorough than I have been early on in the past. Look back through your arguments and you will see a string of conclusions and assumptions based on unrelated facts and factoids.

 

[Galactidot]

Correct

Alright, how would that be amended? Every verse has anti-feats, I always assumed we'd just treat it like toonforce for a verse like Mario

I can't be more thorough than I have been early on in the past. Look back through your arguments and you will see a string of conclusions and assumptions based on unrelated facts and factoids.

Okay... Well, can you at least tell me what I got right? I'd like to know what you agree with if I can't pinpoint where you disagree~
I honestly can't exactly tell what you're sayin I got wrong , I'm not trying to be difficult, this be genuine.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, how would that be amended? Every verse has anti-feats, I always assumed we'd just treat it like toonforce for a verse like Mario

Several consistent feats backing up the tier the a rating is upgraded to*. Extra burden of proof due to proven inconsistency.

*This is only for physical stats a large portion of the verse scales to, not one-off whatever ratings.

 

[Galactidot]

Several consistent feats backing up the tier the a rating is upgraded to*. Extra burden of proof due to proven inconsistency.

*This is only for physical stats a large portion of the verse scales to, not one-off whatever ratings.

Ahhh okay

Just wondering though, will you be doing this?

Okay... Well, can you at least tell me what I got right? I'd like to know what you agree with if I can't pinpoint where you disagree~
I honestly can't exactly tell what you're sayin I got wrong , I'm not trying to be difficult, this be genuine.

I'd greatly appreciate it~

 

[JPTheGamer]

High 5-A literally cannot be applied to any character, due to surface area.

What if we used Paper Mario's durability from withstanding the fan (High 6-B+) based on the calculation as a supporting feat for his durability and gave him "High 5-A with Things" (before you ask, yes, they're called Things in the game) for his tier and Attack Potency instead? That way we have a use for High 5-A without anyone scaling to the calculation except for the durability part.

Does...that sound better...or still no?

 

[Chariot190]

Ig it is a tier 5 item yeah. It's output is just gutted by AOE, but in a match say he was fighting ******* Unicron or some shit, the total output would matter a lot more so idk. I wouldn't say 5-A, I would say "up to 5-A" (obviously given not every thing is that strong anyway).
If the calc is right and it do be like that, listing it like that should be fine, as long as it's worded properly so people don't rat in matches acting as if he can whip out a 5-A attack against a normal sized dude.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Isn't it a Sticker? From my surface understanding of the plot, the Royal Sticker is like the strongest one or something

 

[Armorchompy]

What if we used Paper Mario's durability from withstanding the fan (High 6-B+) based on the calculation as a supporting feat for his durability and gave him "High 5-A with Things" (before you ask, yes, they're called Things in the game) for his tier and Attack Potency instead? That way we have a use for High 5-A without anyone scaling to the calculation except for the durability part.

Does...that sound better...or still no?

I dunno if all the Things would scale, the others just hit enemies straight up. But yeah Paper Mario in the last two games would scale to High 6-B that's fine. Ideally you'd want a key split but that's a whole other thing

 

[AyOgUyS]

Universal base Mario when :/

 

[Starsprite53]

Universal base Mario when :/

If Mario has to search for 7 ancient macguffins and turns into Super Duper Mario in the next 3D game, I'm making the thread.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I dunno if all the Things would scale, the others just hit enemies straight up.

Well, we're not actually using the High 5-A calculation for ALL the Things in this case; we're using it more as the rating for the strongest Thing (whether or not it's the fan attack or something else) in Paper Mario's arsenal. And if later on in the future, there's a Thing with a calculation that would deal less energy than the fan one and be higher/lower than the current tier Paper Mario's at, we'd use that as the weakest Thing in Mario's arsenal, like High 6-C or something, and give him something like "Varies from High 6-C to High 5-A".

Think of this calculation more as the upper limit to the AP of the Things Paper Mario has.

 

[Armorchompy]

Sure, yeah

 

[Dust_Collector]

Universal base Mario when :/

We'll make the CRT for that when the CRT for herald level Spider-Man is made

In regards to the Dark Bowser feat since it was mentioned the timeframe the current calc uses looks to too quick, is there any other timeframe we could reasonably get outta it?

 

[Armorchompy]

We'll make the CRT for that when the CRT for herald level Spider-Man is made

In regards to the Dark Bowser feat since it was mentioned the timeframe the current calc uses looks to too quick, is there any other timeframe we could reasonably get outta it?

You could recalc the speed using the shown distance it reaches but using the current mass. That'd be a lowball tho. If a few other acceptable 5-C feats were produced I'd consider the current calc valid evidence for the rating.

 

[AyOgUyS]

We'll make the CRT for that when the CRT for herald level Spider-Man is made

Full Power Hulk level base Spidey trust

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Universal base Mario when

When this Wiki becomes based.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Isn't it a Sticker? From my surface understanding of the plot, the Royal Sticker is like the strongest one or something

Yeah, and the Giant Royal Sticker Bowser takes 1 damage from all attacks until Mario uses Kersti to massively amp himself

 

[JPTheGamer]

Sure, yeah

Actually, now that I mention it, I just remembered there's a third recalc of the Giant Fan feat from the previous Mario Bros AP revision thread @Mephistus made resulting in High 6-A durability. I believe this one should be used since it can further cement the cast into the High 6-A range.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Universal base Mario when :/

Hopefully someday

 

[JPTheGamer]

Okay, just a few more things to cover and this thread should be done; let's go over the revised proposals...

• Only the Lucien statement will be used as High 6-A support.
• Snow King gets a "higher with environmental destruction" rating (I'll provide a calculation for it using the proper timeframe later).
• We have evidence of a UES for the Genie from Wario World.
• The Giant Fan calculation's AP will only be for Paper Mario; he'll get "up to Low 4-C with various Things". We'll use the durability as supporting evidence for High 6-A.

Let's talk about the scaling; from the looks of it, some are in agreement for the cast being 5-C to 5-B while others are in disagreement. The vote seems split there, but I do believe there's another way these ratings can be used for the verse. So, I have an idea...

​

Instead of having other characters like Wario, Bowser, and the Mario Bros placed at 5-B and/or 5-C, for now, only the Genie will be placed at 5-B and only Dark Bowser and the Dark Star will be placed at 5-C. Everyone else will stay at High 6-A; they will not be scaled to the aforementioned characters until we can find more sufficient Tier 5 calculations and feats to support that.​

​

Now that this covers just about everything, what's everyone's thoughts here? (using replies since I can't ping staff)

You could recalc the speed using the shown distance it reaches but using the current mass. That'd be a lowball tho. If a few other acceptable 5-C feats were produced I'd consider the current calc valid evidence for the rating.

After looking over all the feats and reading this thread, I pretty much find myself agreeing with DDM said in their post here


What more I believe that Armor has outlined some real problems with the blackhole feats.

In otherwords, I only agree with the usage of Feat 1 and Feat 11 for any scaling here as all the others aren't strong enough for scaling the core cast to. The Genie (if they have a profile) should scale to their planet feat.

largely tangential question, why are you putting "up to 3.8 Yottatons" for all of the values
if something is actually meant to be a planet-bust by statements we just assume baseline 5-B, i.e. 59.44 Zettatons

I mean the purpose of the CRT was to apply the calcs, correct? I just thought the OP forgot to mention how they would be applied haha.

And yeah, that answer sufficed.

I'll wait for the conversation between Armor and Omni, since they seem to be debating the fundamentals of the calcs used, before mentioning my final thoughts

While I do agree Mario is heavily downplayed; I agree some of the listed feats/calculations are not valid or are kind of exaggerated.

This one is good.

Vague timeframe and what not.

That's more so a world conquest statement, not an AP feat.

A legit feat, but no real proof casual magic blasts downscale from ultimate wish granting ability.

This reminds me, you probably could use the idea that Mushroom Kingdom/DK Island planet is much larger than Earth due to how far down DK falls to get to the core. But either way seems to be either an overtime thing or more affiliated with transmutation rather than AP.

Grand Star reactor isn't even a real planet, and the explosion was High 3-A outright given the new lore updates, and based on new story book information, Lumas have apparently witness the same event in great magnitude. But you may to save that sort of revision for later if the OP's goal is a Tier 5 upgrade.

Still kind of vague


Cackletta's black holes are definitely not real black holes, but can't really speak against the other 2.

This one is alright to me.

Refrain from this please

Thank you very much.
Because of SomebodyData's post, where they said "Could you provide the scaling and tiers of each character you plan to revise? (Sounds like the verse will vary heavily between 5-C to High 5-A but not sure who will end up where)", I feel, I, at least, should wait to see if SD has anything to brought up with the requested information provided.

 

[Cropfist]

It didn't kill Bowser.

The prima guide has been rejected more than once.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I don't think Luciens statement works as support for the current High 6-A ratings, Lucien even before recovering his full power is considered so strong that Daisy think's it might not be possible to overcome it, and her and Peach needed to be amped to take on Wario and Waluigi who got power from this weakened Lucien. Luciens statement is only applied to when his full power is used by Bowser to amp himself up with only Mario being strong enough to stand a chance against them due to getting stronger throughout the game.

Fine with using it for Luciens profile, it should get a second key for it's full power, but we shouldn't add Mario beating him as another justification for his current High 6-A rating otherwise we'd end up with Bowser scaling above himself. This really needs a CRT of it's own but the main case should get a "higher via training / leveling up / whatever" added to their base stats since they can and do get noticably stronger in the RPG's but as shown in every Mario and Luigi game they eventually get rusty and reset back to their average level of strength (Except for the Paper Mario characters who actually stay stronger than they were in the previous game lol)