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War God vs Destruction God

He does have Concept Manipulation. The Chaos Gods basically have control over the rules of reality. Like Tzeentch is able to make an infinite dimensional object fit inside of his 9th dimensional palace despite that being impossible. So I think Khorne should be able to do something like that.
 
We need my guy Sandman in here. He's probably the most knowledgeable person on the Endless that we have.
 
The Endless are extremely hard to put down, they are concepts that affect everything, like how Death will still one day claim Lucifer and maybe even the Presence himself while they may seem more powerful than her.The Endless we see in the story isn't even the entire being of the Endless, we only perceive an aspect of the Endless, as we see the light glinting from one tiny facet of some huge and flawlessly cut precious stone.

The Endless we see in the story are only point of views.The thing is all aspects of the Endless are all equally real whether they are from the past, present or future like how there is a Dream that is the Dream of sleeping Gods from before Creation that exists in a likely outerversal realm.And it's implied that the aspects of the Endless are not much aware of what happens to another aspect of the Endless, like how Dream didn't even know that one of the aspects of Dream of the Endless died until he was forcibly drawn to have a meeting with the other Dreams, so the aspects of Endless are both the same and different (which causes Dream confusion), they are aspects of each other, all of them are Dream of the Endless.

Also, the argument that this High 1-B is above this more complex multiverse won't apply to the Endless.due to how different Vertigo Creation is.The Creation of Vertigo is more "malleable" than other multiverses in that it changes to whatever its inhabitants desire (Dream can rewrite Creation if 1000 people dream of the same thing).This rewrite is so powerful that it basically overwrite Creation, Creation wasn't changed, it became that this new version of Creation has always been the only version of Creation.This rewrite of Creation affects everything, this is the "external force" that the Presence mentioned.If enough people believe that, for example, Creation is as complex as Dark Tower and that Gan is the God, then it will become so, but no matter how changed this multiverse becomes the Endless would still be in some way above it but below Gan because in this version of Creation he is "God".

And if he did kill Destruction, what would happen is that he's going to have to likely face every aspect of Destruction plus he needs to deal with the other Endless
 
So yeah, you can kill an aspect of an Endless (like what happened to Dream) but killing an aspect is different from killing the whole thing.You killing an aspect means that you need to deal with 7 angry siblings, including the replacement of the one you just killed (or maybe even the other aspects of the one you just killed)
 
You need at least baseline 1-A to permanently kill them. Their paradoxical nature is hard for even 1-A's to get around... If that implies anything. So... Before I come to a conclusion...

Are we trying to kill the aspect or the full Endless ?
 
When I saw destruction god in the title I thought this was gonna be about Beerus. I'm just gonna wait and see what other people say before I vote.
 
How is there supposed to be blood for the blood God when we only stop at one casualty?
 
I should cast my vote.

Inconclusive. DotE doesn't seem to have the concept manipulation to get rid of Khorne, and Khorne is in no way able to kill him in turn.
 
Thinking about it more Khorne should be very capable of taking down DotE. For one Khorne could just slice open a hole to the warp letting it flood into the battlefield and then he could make it so that destruction is impossible in that space which if I understand things correctly should BFR DotE. However that's not particularly Khorne like.

Khorne would probably just use his sword to kill DotE on a conceptual level which again I don't see how DotE could possibly survive being eliminated as a concept especially when Khorne already embodies the concept of destruction himself and could just replace himself as the constant of destruction eliminating the need for DotE in the multiverse.

DotE has absolutely no way of harming Khorne at all either. Every single one his hax is useless against Khorne. It would basically end up being an epic sword fight between the two but even the act of fighting Khorne empowers him and he's arguably a better cqc fighter considering he embodies the concept of fighting in the first place.

So vote for Khorne if this isn't an outright stomp in his favour.
 
I'm going to wait for some Vertigo experts to evaluate that one.
 
TheSandman31 said:
The Endless are extremely hard to put down, they are concepts that affect everything, like how Death will still one day claim Lucifer and maybe even the Presence himself while they may seem more powerful than her.The Endless we see in the story isn't even the entire being of the Endless, we only perceive an aspect of the Endless, as we see the light glinting from one tiny facet of some huge and flawlessly cut precious stone.

The Endless we see in the story are only point of views.The thing is all aspects of the Endless are all equally real whether they are from the past, present or future like how there is a Dream that is the Dream of sleeping Gods from before Creation that exists in a likely outerversal realm.And it's implied that the aspects of the Endless are not much aware of what happens to another aspect of the Endless, like how Dream didn't even know that one of the aspects of Dream of the Endless died until he was forcibly drawn to have a meeting with the other Dreams, so the aspects of Endless are both the same and different (which causes Dream confusion), they are aspects of each other, all of them are Dream of the Endless.

Also, the argument that this High 1-B is above this more complex multiverse won't apply to the Endless.due to how different Vertigo Creation is.The Creation of Vertigo is more "malleable" than other multiverses in that it changes to whatever its inhabitants desire (Dream can rewrite Creation if 1000 people dream of the same thing).This rewrite is so powerful that it basically overwrite Creation, Creation wasn't changed, it became that this new version of Creation has always been the only version of Creation.This rewrite of Creation affects everything, this is the "external force" that the Presence mentioned.If enough people believe that, for example, Creation is as complex as Dark Tower and that Gan is the God, then it will become so, but no matter how changed this multiverse becomes the Endless would still be in some way above it but below Gan because in this version of Creation he is "God".

And if he did kill Destruction, what would happen is that he's going to have to likely face every aspect of Destruction plus he needs to deal with the other Endless
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, I'll stick with Inconclusive, High 1-Bs for the most part are pretty much unkillable.
 
Dude I read your post already. Don't be rude. Khorne is very capable of dealing with DotE's form of existence. Like that's not really an argument at all.

"The thing is all aspects of the Endless are all equally real whether they are from the past, present or future " - The Chaos Gods essentially view time as if it was fictional so this isn't really an issue. Khorne is more than capable of cleaving DotE open on a scale beyond time.

The only thing really keeping DotE alive is the concept of destruction and Khorne can attack things on a conceptual level. He wouldn't want to eliminate destruction as a concept because it empowers him so he would just do what Slaanesh did to the Aeldari warp gods and replace DotE as the concept of destruction or even just devour him conceptually. There being multiple DotE doesn't matter he could conceptually attack them all at the same time even if they were in other universes. DotE's weakness is literally concept manipulation and his concept is one that Khorne has the MOST authority over. What exactly stops Khorne from doing this?
 
no, the concept of destruction isn't keeping Destruction alive.He IS the concept of Destruction and he is the destruction of everything


And no, he ain't replacing any of the Endless,the Endless aren't warp gods, Creations may change, even God's like the Presence will disappear, but the Endless remains the same.The Endless are constant, you make it sound like anyone with concept manip can beat the Endless, just look at Deaths matches (Death was agreed to be too much for any of the Chaos Gods).If you verse equalize then the Endless will also apply to the Chaos Gods (the Endless can affect 1-As, look at Death,Destiny and Dream)

I'm going to reply again after I went home from school
 
I never said anyone with concept manipulation could defeat him I said Khornes concept manipulation is enough to defeat him.

Khorne and DotE are actually relatively similar. They are both effected by the thoughts and dreams of mortals and they both represent the fundamentals of reality. The difference being Khorne has authority over his concepts and DotE is just a facet of it. Like I said before the Chaos Gods are more than capable of getting rid of the concept of destruction. They live in a timeless realm that adheres to laws of reality that they set down. Creating a realm where it's impossible to damage or destroy anything is well within their grasp. The hurdle for Khorne is his lack of desire to do something like that. He wants destruction to exist. That's not a problem though because he can just devour DotE as a concept like Slaanesh did to the Aeldari pantheon.

I also don't care about death's matches lol that's at best ABC logic and at worst an authority fallacy.

I'm willing to have my mind changed but can you actually show some feats of DotE resisting conceptual annihilation on this level? I mean he doesn't even have conceptual manipulation of his own or any resistance to it on his profile.
 
> Thinking about it more Khorne should be very capable of taking down DotE. For one Khorne could just slice open a hole to the warp letting it flood into the battlefield and then he could make it so that destruction is impossible in that space which if I understand things correctly should BFR DotE. However' that's not particularly Khorne like.

someone with High Hyperverse range BFRing someone that is omnipresent with an irrelevant range. I don't think that's gonna work.Doubt that Khorne making a space which destruction is impossible can keep Destruction away considering that the Endless can stroll into outerversal realms

But that stuff just got added

> I never said anyone with concept manipulation could defeat him I said 'Khornes' concept manipulation is enough to defeat him.

Has Khorne ever erased, manipulated a concept that is nigh omnipresent even in Outerversal realms? Is his concept manip/reality warping/causality manip/fate manipulation better than this ? If the answer is no then he isn't doing much to Destruction, or any of The Endless. Destruction not only represent destruction but also creation as the Endless defines their opposite

>I also don't care about death's matches lol that's at best ABC logic and at worst an authority fallacy.

If he isn't killing Death then he also isn't killing Destruction due to their almost identical nature, Destruction represents the destruction of everything just like how Death represents the ultimate death of everything.

>Khorne and DotE are actually relatively similar. They are both effected by the thoughts and dreams of mortals and they both represent the fundamentals of reality. The difference being Khorne has authority over his concepts and DotE is just a facet of it

Destruction has complete authority not only over destruction but also to creation.So he isn't really just a "facet" as he even has control over the opposite of the concept that he represents

>' 'Like I said before the Chaos Gods are more than capable of getting rid of the concept of destruction. They live in a timeless realm that adheres to laws of reality that they set dow

Delirium literally "lost" time and considers the laws of reality as "suggested opinions"

A realm in the Dreaming is timeless. Destruction is the one responsible for the creation of stars and those stars have higher dimensional avatars that live in a timeless, acausal realm that exist far above the real. The Endless also exists in a realm that is neither real or unreal

So it won't help Khorne even if he lives in a timeless realm unless Khorne is a 1-A because that doesn't really make him stronger than Destruction as Destruction will also one day destroy similar realms

So as said before, Destruction is the concept of destruction whatever the realm is, even in outerversal realms doubt that Khorne will do those stuff you're saying that he will do to Destruction, Destruction isn't some baseline High 1-B
 
Overlord775 said:
@TheSandman41 Then why aren't the endless 1-A ?
Click to expand...
Code: 
tired discussing about that stuff, we settled for the Endless to have only irrelevant range instead.their function and nature of their existence basically makes them unkillabe to High 1-Bs (even to CK who was agreed to be too much for any Chaos Gods)
 
Ah the old "this character is outerversal" argument in 1-B. Getting pretty tired of that one. Like that's essentially what this argument boils down to. You are saying DotE is higher dimensional and so shouldn't be affected by Khornes concept hax but a character can't be expected to have to defeat a higher-dimensional entity or plane in order to win. There's a reason we restrict higher dimensional immortality by default.

It's not even like you are saying it's immortality or Regenerationn or something because Khorne would eventually power null both of those. You're literally just saying DotE is outerversal. Do you not see a problem with that?

Also you seem to be stating that being able to go to an outerplane is the same as being able to return to a reality where your concept doesn't exist. They aren't the same. Does DotE actually have any feats of going to or existing in a reality where destruction and creation aren't a thing?
 
>Ah the old "this character is outerversal" argument in 1-B. Getting pretty tired of that one. Like that's essentially what this argument boils down to. You are saying DotE is higher dimensional and so shouldn't be affected by Khornes concept hax but a character can't be expected to have to defeat a higher-dimensional entity or plane in order to win. There's a reason we restrict higher dimensional immortality by default.

It's not even like you are saying it's immortality or Regenerationn or something because Khorne would eventually power null both of those. You're literally just saying DotE is outerversal. Do you not see a problem with that?

Where did I say that they are outerversal? their range and nigh-omnipresence is outerversal which is true if you look at their profiles.

Irrelevant (Can reach into the void outside Creation)

Destruction represents a concept much grander and absolute than the Chaos Gods.Chaos Gods are created from the collective desires and emotion of mortals, the Endless arent, theyre not similar at all.The Endless arent affected by the thoughts of humanity as they are the primal truths of existence, they just do their duty and function.

Also, do you have any feats of Khorne doing something like that? has he ever nulled a concept that is more than infinite times his range and reach?

Also, it isn't even anything like the higher dimensional type 8 that usually gets restricted.The Endless are not reliant on a being or things that exist in an outerversal/higher dimensional space.

>Also you seem to be stating that being able to go to an outerplane is the same as being able to return to a reality where your concept doesn't exist. They aren't the same. Does DotE actually have any feats of going to or existing in a reality where destruction and creation aren't a thing?

Nights Realm http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Sr_oH-ZnE0/VkIORB7AzEI/AAAAAAAAPD8/CcbnF5-Cc9o/s0-Ic42/006.jpg

"It begins, as we all begin, in darkness. There is pain. The pain is unimportant, and I ignore it. There is solitude. The solitude may destroy me. And greater than the pain, greater even than the solitude, there is NOTHING. A vastness of nothing, a place of no light, no information. I am trapped inside a black hole. I am removed from the worlds. I reach out with my mind and I touch nothing and no one: No dreaming minds, no pictures, no emotions, no thought, no life... Time is dissolved in the darkness. I am a child of Time and Night, and this place will prove my end."

The Endless sometimes wonder into mother Nights Realm where there is nothing, they can appear to place where the concept they represent doesnt exists.The Void is also a completely empty space without devoid of any concepts and limit even to thought, another High 1-B was erased from existence to the point where the very idea of him doesn't exist just by falling into it
 
"Destruction represents a concept much grander and absolute than the Chaos Gods.Chaos Gods are created from the collective desires and emotion of mortals, the Endless arent, theyre not similar at all.The Endless arent affected by the thoughts of humanity as they are the primal truths of existence, they just do their duty and function."

You were the one that said the Vertigo multiverse can be changed and altered by the thoughts and feelings of those inside it. That was the analogy I was drawing. The Chaos Gods gain power from mortals yes but they aren't actually reliant on or subservient to it like at all (which according to you the Endless are to some extent). They are self sustaining and acausal. I also think you are seriously underestimating how vast the concepts they embody are when you are talking about the Endless representing concepts greater than them. I'll go over them briefly.

Tzeentch: The Architect of Fate, Changer of Ways, Master of Fortune. Tzeentch represents fate, destiny, dreams and hope but more than that he represents change. Without the warp energy that makes up Tzeentch change would not occur. Things would stagnate and fail to progress. Cause and effect would mean nothing. So right there he already represents a larger set of concepts than Destiny and Dream together.

Slaanesh: The God of Obsession and Master of Excess. Slaanesh is hedonism, lust, desire, megalomania but also the pursuit of perfection and the drive to better oneself. Remind you of a certain endless?

Nurgle: Great Corruptor, Lord of Decay, Papa Nurgle. Nurgle embodies decay, stagnation, and death. But also life and consistency. He's often referred to as the Lord of All because all things are prone to corruption and decay. Again he kind of seems like Death+ doesn't he?

Individually those 3 are inferior to Khorne in power. Without outside interference Khorne would eventually be able to conceptually defeat any one of the 3 (which would subsequently destroy the 40k reality as we know it because the Chaos Gods must remain in balance but he could still do it). At one point Tzeentch actually nearly did this but the other 3 rose up together and beat him down. So no the endless don't represent concepts larger than the Chaos Gods if anything it's the other way around. Moreover you've yet to show any of the endless resisting any sort of conceptual damage and one of them is stepping into the ring with a being that fights conceptually constantly. Unless you say DotE is Outerversal thereby making him immune to High-Hyperversal hax (which is what it seemed like you were doing from my perspective, apologies if that's not the case) I fail to see how Khorne doesn't just tear him a new one.

The endless being able to survive in Mother Night's realm proves that Khorne changing the laws of reality to prevent creation and destruction would not BFR DotE. I will happily concede that since you provided a feat for it. Khorne wouldn't actually do that anyway most likely because martial honour but still it's not on the table for him at the very least. That was sort of secondary to my main point about conceptual damage though.
 
>You were the one that said the Vertigo multiverse can be changed and altered by the thoughts and feelings of those inside it. That was the analogy I was drawing. The Chaos Gods gain power from mortals 'yes' but they aren't actually reliant on or subservient to it like at all (which according to you the Endless are to some extent). They are 'self sustaining' and 'acausal'. I also think you are seriously underestimating how vast the concepts they embody are when you are talking about the Endless representing concepts greater than them. I'll go over them briefly.

The multiverse gets change but the Endless does not, they remain the same even if Gods like the Presence disappear or forgotten.The only thing that will happen to them is that they will forget what happened in the previous version of Creation.The Endless are more unchangeable than even beings like the Presence because the Endless are also the function that represents such changes (The Presence was created because of Dream turning dreams into reality)

Also them being affected by Dream isnt a low feat if thats what you're suggesting, dreams and thoughts in DC can create 1-As

>Tzeentch: The Architect of Fate, Changer of Ways, Master of Fortune. Tzeentch represents fate, destiny, dreams 'and' hope but more than that he represents change. Without the warp energy that makes up Tzeentch change would not occur. Things would stagnate and fail to progress. Cause and effect would mean nothing. So right there he already represents a larger set of concepts than Destiny and Dream together.

If you're saying that Tzeentch is stronger than Destiny then no, Death was agreed to be able to stomp any of the Chaos Gods and the only reason why she didn't tear Ynnead apart was because of cosmic shenanigans regarding his existence

Nurgle: Great Corruptor, Lord of Decay, Papa Nurgle. Nurgle embodies decay, stagnation, and death. But also life and consistency. He's often referred to as the Lord of All because all things are prone to corruption and decay. Again he kind of seems like Death+ doesn't he?

On a much lesser scale, Death represents the ultimate end of everything (basically anything that ends even thoughts, ideas, concept, dimensions etc ) even to 1-As, if you think I'm bullshitting

Silk Man: I have cheated the death of all things

Lucifer: I'm sure Death has her own opinion about transaction, postponing the inevitable isn't cheating just stretching the rules a little

Irrelevant (Reaches into all of Creation, other Creations past, parallel and future, and into the Void itself)

She isn't an At least High 1-B for nothing

Also, about all of that

Quality>>Quantity




 
I wasn't trying to say that them changing due to the thoughts and dreams of mortals was a low feat at all just that you said it was a thing that happened. Just to be clear I don't think that makes them weaker at all but similarly the Chaos Gods aren't weak because they draw power from mortals.

"If you're saying that Tzeentch is stronger than Destiny then no, Death was agreed to be able to stomp any of the Chaos Gods and the only reason why she didn't tear Ynnead apart was because of cosmic shenanigans regarding his existence." Firstly that's ABC logic/Authority fallacy. You have to actually present an argument. Secondly you claimed that the Endless represented concepts that are beyond the Chaos Gods. They defacto don't as I already demonstrated. Most of them represent concepts that are only one facet of a Chaos God.

Death coming for 1-As isn't a feat it's not like Death is actually killing them. They exist so at one point they wont. Nurgle represents exactly the same thing (plus a little extra change) there just aren't any 1-As in 40k to eventually die in the first place. Again unless you are trying to state that Death is outerversal and therefore immune to High-Hyperversal hax. I'm saying that again because you keep trying to compare them 1-As when by their profiles they are infinitely weaker than any 1-A. It doesn't matter if Death is "at least High 1-B" because for the sake of this matchup the endless have to be High 1-B.

Moreover none of those are concept manipulation resistance feats. All you keep doing is trying to imply the Endless are comparable to 1-As. So let's entertain that for a second. Either they are 1-As themselves in which case it's a mismatch, they have higher dimensional immortality in which case it's restricted by VS battles rules or they have High-Godly regen in which case conceptual manipulation and power null say bye bye. Or it could be all of the above not that it matters.
 
One thing I'll say for the moment.

Lucifer Morningstar is incapable of getting rid of Destiny of the Endless, or even affecting the concept which Destiny embodies in such a sufficient way that it would result in the latter's defeat. If I'm remembering a previous debate correctly, he even attempted to burn Destiny's book (which quite literally has all of fate written on it) and only succeeded in making himself look like an ass.

Lucifer has Conceptual Manipulation.

I know for damn sure that Destiny is the most powerful of the Endless. Easily. But if Destruction is anywhere near comparable to him in the sense that his own function is something a 1-A with concept hax can't circumvent, then I'm not sure how Khorne or any other 40K High 1-B will be capable of accomplishing such a thing.

That said, I know jack shit about Warhammer, and my knowledge of Destruction is similarly limited. So as far as my opinion of all this goes, I haven't formed one yet, and probably won't until both sides start providing (more) proof of their claims. Or until someone else comes in and weighs in as well.

Going off what I've read, if none of those things happen, we're going to be here all the way into next Christmas.
 
Yeah, that's the gist of it, escaping Destiny is equivalent to escaping the Presence's Plan as Destiny carries the Plan of the presence which is why Michael and Lucifer tried to take it away from himand Destiny basically said no you cant even Lucifer's act of burning a page of Destiny's book is still within Destiny's Book.

Also, you're not the only one who knows little about Destruction, Dude is the most obscure of the Endless
 
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