Whole Cake Island Scaling Revision

[Stefano4444]

I have the feeling that I'm going to cause a headache for some people, but its something that was bother me for a while and i really want to address it, if its proven that i'm wrong, then so be it. I'm talking about the notorious power creeps One Piece had since Post Timeskip, where Base Luffy had consistently surpassing his previous peak in the very next arc.

Today thought, my focus its on the supposed power creep in Whole Cake Island Arc during his fight with Katakuri based on this quote. Because after reading the fight and considering the context behind it, I came to the conclusion that Katakuri's statement was never referring to Luffy’s strength and the events during the fight doesn't actually back up this notion.

But to fully understand this, we need to examine the fight in context. While I'm not planning to post all the pages of Katakuri vs. Luffy, as I find it unnecessary since most of you may already be familiar (at least the One Piece experts), I will try to highlight the most important parts to provide evidence for my arguments.

Battle​

From the very start of the fight, it is made obvious that Katakuri was easily overwhelming Luffy, even when using Gear 2nd or Gear 3rd, while still not going all out. While Future Sight was the major reason why Katakuri was nearly impossible for Luffy to hit, it is also made clear that his general physical capacities were also greater than even Gear 3rd Luffy. The latter was simply outmatched in every way, which makes sense given Katakuri's narrative, portrayed as a "superior" version of Luffy with better Haki and a greater Devil Fruit (but only on the surface).



Yet, during the fight, Luffy continued to fight back without ever losing, something Katakuri takes note of. Despite the odds being against him, Luffy still believed that he could win. But despite his tenacity, Katakuri decided to finish h rim off for good, not giving him the chance to transform and think, as he used his awakening to trap Luffy so that he could suffocate.

Only for Luffy to return, breaking his house, where Katakuri's lower jaw was visible, something he wanted to keep hidden to maintain his cool/badass aura so that he could protect the people he love by making sure nobody its willing enough to try to harm his family. Of course, this pissed him off to the point of attacking his subordinates, but it was also the moment when, by losing his calm mind, he lost his Future Sight, allowing Luffy to hit him for the first time and giving him the chance to turn into Boundman.

This is when, for the first time, Luffy had the upper hand and realized it was Katakuri's superior Observation Haki that stopped him from getting hit. Now, in Boundman, Luffy was able to actually outspeed him and overpower him, wounding him for the first time in the fight. But despite taking several of Luffy’s attacks, Katakuri was still in relatively good condition. He was able to calm himself and activate his Future Sight. With this, he was able to react to and dodge any of Boundman's attacks. Not only that, but he also started using his Awakening to generate attacks capable of repelling his attack and even harming him. And while Luffy still hoped to expose his limitation, he was forced to retreat as his Gear 4th's time limit was nearly over, which would have made him too weak to fight back.



After escaping using Brûlée, Luffy acknowledges that if Katakuri runs out of Haki, he could win. Alternatively, as Katakuri later states, Luffy could have simply escaped since, without Brûlée, Katakuri wouldn’t have been able to follow him. However, this isn’t how Luffy wanted to win—he genuinely wanted to defeat Katakuri fair and square, striving to truly surpass him.

After that, Luffy was still being overwhelmed by Katakuri, and the presence of Flampe further reduced Luffy's ability to dodge with her needles. However, this actually helped Luffy improve his Observation Haki (as Silvers once said, only in the midst of battle can your Haki truly advance to the next level), enough that was able to counter one of Katakuri's attack in time with his Gear 3rd.

Eventually, Katakuri noticed Flampe's presence, realizing that she was the reason why Luffy couldn't dodge his Mogura in time. This made him angry, as he didn't want any outside help. Like Luffy and Kaido, he always wanted to win a fight on his own. Because of this, he decided to stab himself with Mogura in the same spot he had stabbed Luffy, then loudly berated her for interfering in his fight while removing his scarf, no longer caring how others would view him.



This its when he apology for not realize it sooner, only for Luffy to reply that there is no such thing as fighting dirty in the pirate world, and after a quick conqueror haki's clash, he then state that he no longer view Luffy as inferior to him. However at this point you can all see that, based on what I showed earlier, his statement was never referring to Base Luffy suddenly growing up to equally match Katakuri's. It was about willpower and ideology, which impressed Katakuri and made him realize that Luffy was "equal" to him.

After that we also see that Luffy did also manage to fully unlock Future Sight, which allowed to boost his speed to the point that he could properly react to even Katakuri's Awakening attacks, yet even with his new improved Advance Observation Haki, Katakuri was still show to be stronger than Luffy by a considered margin, as he was getting overwhelm in Base and knock out around, as Katakuri even asked if this was all he got.



And only when using Snakeman, which, while less powerful than Boundman, was still stronger than Gear 3rd—strong enough that he was now on a similar level to Katakuri. But more importantly, his speed grew significantly higher than before, to the point where he could actually match Katakuri's speed for the first time. From here, it can be argued that Katakuri and Luffy were truly fighting on par, with neither of them having a significant gap in speed or strength. From there, they continue to clash for a bit until they decide to finish with a single attack, where Luffy is the one who ends up hitting Katakuri first. After that, both were at their limit as they briefly lost consciousness,

Only to wake up later, with Katakuri asking if Luffy will come back. Luffy conferm it and, satisfied with the answer, he falls, which ends the fight.

Conclusion​

Based on everything I have shown, there is little factual evidence that Base Luffy did reach Katakuri's level throughout their entire fight, from beginning to end.

Even with Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd, Luffy was repeatedly overwhelmed. Even after unlocking Future Sight, Katakuri continued to have a clear upper hand. He only managed to make Katakuri bleed twice, but for the rest of the time he was been tossed around.

It’s only in Gear 4th that things change, with Boundman being able to physically contend or even overpower Katakuri, but not to the point of being able to one-shot him, while still lacking the necessary speed to keep up with his Future Sight. And with Snakeman, where they were seemingly on par in both strength and speed.

And while Luffy does get generally stronger after each arc, nothing indicate Post WCI/Early Wano Luffy had grew to the point of suprassing his Whole Cake Island Gear 4th version and neither it was stated or show that Katakuri was getting stronger and instead its likely he was simply using more of his strength until he was going all out.

Which would make Monkey D. Luffy (Emperor)'s Fifth Emperor of the Sea Key pretty redundant, since the gap would be not that significant, at least not enough to justify the Key, so it would be better if we remove it and can simply add Advance Observation Haki to Whole Cake Island Key instead.

In addition the profile of Katakuri would need to be changed and he would still upscale to the likes of Doflamingo (with or without Awakening), Cracker and Smoothie, scale to Whole Cake Island Snakeman Luffy and Boundman too (although depending how your point of view his performance he may be weaker than Boundman, but not massively as he could still took multiple attacks and he was still in good conditions, and Cracker too could damage Boundman with a swing of his sword, so at worst he only downscale), with only Awakening either fully matching or outmatching Boundman.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Quickly glancing at this, If I'm understanding correctly... I see no valid reason in making this CRT, base Luffy at the end of the fight clearly was able to compete against katakuri, something he couldn't do in the beginning of the fight...

Making base luffy at least relative to his past gear 4th, it doesn't mean luffy's base is automatically superior to it

Luffy at the start of the fight in gear 3rd was easily overpowered by katakuri in strength

And also become overpowered by Katakuri's awakening in gear 4th boundman

After, Luffy claims to want to get stronger and to also surpass him

He's then later on, able to clash equally to Katakuri's awakend power mochi

Something gear 4th boundman had a lot of trouble with at the beginning

When Luffy was already fatally wounded and already damaged, Base Luffy was still able to tank an awakend power mochi something that boundman got overpowered by

After all of that, Katakuri finally sees him as a worthy opponent

And is literally capable of fighting against the power of his awakening in base, this page alone would scale base luffy at least relative with his past Boundman state

base luffy then was strong and quick enough to deal with his awakened power mochi and deal a blow against katakuri

All the evidence clearly shows Base Luffy at the end of the fight to be relative to his past Boundman state, you can't just ignore all these moments

Luffy's Fifth Emperor key is fine, just lacks explanation and scans in the justification, currently disagree with the proposals

 

[Stefano4444]

He's then later on, able to clash equally to Katakuri's awakend power mochi

Again, this was mostly thanks to his Future Sight, which allowed him to perfectly counter the attack. Even then, Katakuri quickly retaliated by hitting him with his leg before he could react. Beside this is the only instance where his Gear 3rd actually clashed equally.

When Luffy was already fatally wounded and already damaged, Base Luffy was still able to tank an awakend power mochi something that boundman got overpowered by

Getting pummeled isn't the same as tanking. He was clearly getting beaten and badly wounded by the attack. This really doesn't prove that Base Luffy was now relative to his Gear 4th version. At best, it provides further evidence of his higher stamina/determination compared to other characters.

After all of that, Katakuri finally sees him as a worthy opponent

No. This quote has nothing to do with strength or speed—it was never about something as hollow or shallow as just physical power. It was about willpower and how Luffy's personality and determination to keep going earned Katakuri's respect.

Aside from the moments when Luffy was using Boundman or Snakeman, Katakuri had the upper hand over Luffy from the beginning. Even after unlocking Future Sight, Luffy was still losing against him. Narratively, it was also about Luffy facing a stronger version of himself, as their Devil Fruit powers functioned in very similar ways.

However, the key distinction between Luffy and Katakuri is that Luffy was not willing to give up. Instead of running away, he wanted to defeat Katakuri right then and there, despite Katakuri still being stronger than him. Even when Flampe was interfering, Luffy continued fighting, getting closer and closer to seeing the future.

At that point, however, Katakuri still didn't see Luffy as an equal. He acknowledged him as a dangerous opponent, but he still treated him differently. It was only after realizing that Flampe had incapacitated Luffy that this changed—especially when Luffy, despite knowing about the interference, never whined about it and instead sucking it and continue like nothing happen.

That its when Katakuri start trully respecting Luffy as a worthy pirate and an equal to him, but its not about his strength or speed, its about Luffy's willpower as a Conqueror, which both are.

And is literally capable of fighting against the power of his awakening in base, this page alone would scale base luffy at least relative with his past Boundman state

It's funny you bring that up because we actually see Luffy getting hurt when clashing by Katakuri's Haki-infused Mochi attacks, which happened right before he used Boundman.

If Luffy had truly grown to just be relative to Gear 4th, then he wouldn't have felt pain when hit by Katakuri's Mochi attacks, and Katakuri would likely had struggle more. Or even more accurately, Katakuri should have been overpowered instead, just like when he fought Boundman.

Also, if Base Luffy was in fact relative to the previous Gear 4th who did that to Katakuri, then why the latter still capable to match and keep up with his Snakeman, when at that point Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd would had probably be enough to likely outspeed and overpower him?

base luffy then was strong and quick enough to deal with his awakened power mochi and deal a blow against katakuri

Did he actually deal with Katakuri’s Mochi? We don’t see him truly clashing with his Awakening on equal terms; instead, we see him hit Katakuri right away. And again, like I said before, this is literally the only time we see Base Luffy actually harming Katakuri. The other instance is when Katakuri didn’t have Future Sight activated.

After that, Luffy was once again getting his ass kicked, with Katakuri asking if that was the best he could do. And sure, before Snakeman Katakuri was already quite damaged and breathing heavily, but nothing suggests it was because Katakuri was struggling against that Base Luffy.

Remember, he had already taken quite a beating from Boundman, who was clearly stronger than him, and later, he badly wounded himself with his spear to make the fight more fair and as repent for what his little sister did.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Again, this was mostly thanks to his Future Sight, which allowed him to perfectly counter the attack. Even then, Katakuri quickly retaliated by hitting him with his leg before he could react. Beside this is the only instance where his Gear 3rd actually clashed equally.

Future sight does not make you equally clash against awakend power mochi in strength (Same one that damaged and overpowered Gear 4th), something he also couldn't do beforehand to a much weaker technique from katakuri

Getting pummeled isn't the same as tanking. He was clearly getting beaten and badly wounded by the attack. This really doesn't prove that Base Luffy was now relative to his Gear 4th version. At best, it provides further evidence of his higher stamina/determination compared to other characters.

... Boundman from 1 attack got to a near unconscious state, base luffy is still defending after taking it full on after having been fatally damaged already... Come on

This would contribute to his base durability ~ boundman

No. This quote has nothing to do with strength or speed—it was never about something as hollow or shallow as just physical power. It was about willpower and how Luffy's personality and determination to keep going earned Katakuri's respect.

Aside from the moments when Luffy was using Boundman or Snakeman, Katakuri had the upper hand over Luffy from the beginning. Even after unlocking Future Sight, Luffy was still losing against him. Narratively, it was also about Luffy facing a stronger version of himself, as their Devil Fruit powers functioned in very similar ways.

However, the key distinction between Luffy and Katakuri is that Luffy was not willing to give up. Instead of running away, he wanted to defeat Katakuri right then and there, despite Katakuri still being stronger than him. Even when Flampe was interfering, Luffy continued fighting, getting closer and closer to seeing the future.

At that point, however, Katakuri still didn't see Luffy as an equal. He acknowledged him as a dangerous opponent, but he still treated him differently. It was only after realizing that Flampe had incapacitated Luffy that this changed—especially when Luffy, despite knowing about the interference, never whined about it and instead sucking it and continue like nothing happen.

That its when Katakuri start trully respecting Luffy as a worthy pirate and an equal to him, but its not about his strength or speed, its about Luffy's willpower as a Conqueror, which both are.

Doesn't matter

It's funny you bring that up because we actually see Luffy getting hurt when clashing by Katakuri's Haki-infused Mochi attacks, which happened right before he used Boundman.

If Luffy had truly grown to just be relative to Gear 4th, then he wouldn't have felt pain when hit by Katakuri's Mochi attacks. If anything, Katakuri should have been overpowered, just like when he fought Boundman.

... That's because boundman amps his haki, base luffy has weaker Haki than katakuri but was still able to defend against his awakening...

This is just Haki difference, nothing about strength... Luffy is literally standing his ground while boundman was barely able to against them.

This would contribute to his base strength ~ boundman

Did he actually deal with Katakuri’s Mochi? We don’t see him truly clashing with his Awakening on equal terms; instead, we see him hit Katakuri right away. And again, like I said before, this is literally the only time we see Base Luffy actually harming Katakuri. The other instance is when Katakuri didn’t have Future Sight activated.

We see katakuri having his power mochi in the air, ready and also see luffy having lunched himself while katakuri is unable to land his attacks and gets damaged by base luffy

This would at least contribute to his base speed ~ boundman (the anime support him clashing against them to get closer to katakuri and lands a blow)

 

[Stefano4444]

... Boundman from 1 attack got to a near unconscious state, base luffy is still defending after taking it full on after having been fatally damaged already... Come on

Nothing say that single Awakening attack nearly KOed Luffy, not when the very next chapter we see him right up to the offensive and he was still fine.

And Base Luffy only barely defending himself, nothing say that he was tanking them better than Gear 4th.

Doesn't matter

The f**k you mean its doesn't? Yes it does, because otherwise the fight wouldn't make sense, even Katakuri as a character wouldn't make sense.

That like thinking that Vista was fighting equal to Mihawk and just coping by saying doesn't matter if the story prove otherwise.

This is just Haki difference, nothing about strength... Luffy is literally standing his ground while boundman was barely able to against them.

He was only standing his ground due of his insane endurance/stamina and willpower, not because he was as strong as Katakuri.

Zoro was also standing his ground against Kuma back in Thriller Bark, do you think that make them equals?

And your Haki excuse doesn't work (and either i think make sense).

Lets assume Base Luffy natural strength did grew to be relative to his Boundman but Haki wise he was still inferior, then he would still overpower Katakuri's Haki anyway.

As show back in Amazon Lily Arc, Armament can be broken even by non Haki users if the strenght/power gap its big enough, which would had been the case if Base Luffy did in fact grew to be relative to Boundman.

We see katakuri having his power mochi in the air, ready and see luffy having lunched himself while katakuri unable to land his attacks and gets damaged by base luffy

Should that alone prove that he is now equal to Katakuri/Boundman? Especially when we see Katakuri was still beating him later?

And this doesn't explan when why Katakuri could suddently match Snakeman Luffy, if Luffy already grew relative to his previous version of Boundman, the same who was kicking Katakuri's ass.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Nothing say that single Awakening attack nearly KOed Luffy

look at his eyes.

not when the very next chapter we see him right up to the offensive and he was still fine.

Notice how the attacks lunched boundman away, while here base luffy doesn't...

And Base Luffy only barely defending himself, nothing say that he was tanking them better than Gear 4th.

At least relative

The f**k you mean its doesn't? Yes it does, because otherwise the fight wouldn't make sense, even Katakuri as a character wouldn't make sense.

That like thinking that Roger is weaker than Kaido and just coping by saying doesn't matter if the story prove otherwise.

The statements aren't needed when we can literally see what's happening... The statement is only used for support, also idk what you're talking about... Maybe you didn't understand me saying that

He was only standing his ground due of his insane endurance/stamina and willpower, not because he was as strong as Katakuri.

Uhh what? That's not how endurance or stamina works, they have nothing to do with luffy not getting lunched away... Like can you stop ignoring what I'm saying? It doesn't matter if he was as strong as katakuri, he showed at least relative feats to boundman

Zoro was also standing his ground against Kuma back in Thriller Bark, do you think that make them equals?

... No correlation, Zoro also never stood his ground against kuma... There was no physical force for him to even stand his ground...

stand your ground​

to refuse to be pushed backwards

Lets assume only Base Luffy natural strength did grew to be relative to his Boundman but Haki wise he was still inferior, then he would still overpower Katakuri's Haki anyway. As show back in Amazon Lily Arc, Armament can be broken even by non Haki users if the strenght/power gap its big enough, which would had been the case if Base Luffy did in fact grew to be relative to Boundman.

Boundman never overpowered awakening, opposite actually... Yet base luffy was able to deal with them...

Should that alone prove that he is now equal to Katakuri/Boundman?

Yes, with also everything else of luffy having relative feats to boundman and having many supports to them

And this doesn't explan when why Katakuri could suddently match Snakeman Luffy, if Luffy already grew relative to his previous version of Boundman, the same who was kicking Katakuri's ass.

Was not doing anything against awakening katakuri... Unlike base luffy.

The amount of showing from base luffy is beyond enough to scale at least relative to his past boundman

Katakuri against snakeman was also using whole new moves

 

[Stefano4444]

look at his eyes.

Looks at the other scans.

Notice how the attacks lunched luffy away, while here base luffy doesn't...

Only for Katakuri to sending off Luffy anyway in the very next panel and keep beating him over and over.

The statements aren't needed when we can literally see what's happening...

What we see happening its Katakuri having the upper hand over Luffy for most of the fight, before and after unlocking Future Sight.

Only in Gear 4th we see a different, with Snakeman actually having relative strength/speed and Boundman actually overpowering Katakuri.

The statement is only used for support

Except the entire fight doesn't support and if anything go against the notion of Post WCI Base Luffy end up surpassing Early WCI Gear 4th Luffy.

If anything the only way we can have that its to take Katakuri's statement literally, which based on what i show before is definitely not the case.

Uhh what? That's not how endurance or stamina works

Yes it does, if a character can took a lot more damage and pain it does contribute when facing characters who are stronger but lack the same stamina.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Looks at the other scans.

1 scan where he doesn't fully get hit and the other scan where luffy has his eyes closed, gets lunched away and starts bleeding from his mouth from the hit (we also see luffy momentarily stationed, bouncing on the ground at least twice)... That can be argued worse than a KO.

Only for Katakuri to sending off Luffy anyway in the very next panel and keep beating him over and over.

A whole new move... Just shows it to be superior from the rest.

Luffy is literally worn out here... Unable to defend himself... We don't even see him use haki. That's a stamina difference

What we see happening its Katakuri having the upper hand over Luffy for most of the fight, before and after unlocking Future Sight.

Only in Gear 4th we see a different, with Snakeman actually having relative strength/speed and Boundman actually overpowering Katakuri.

You keep ignoring everything else.

Except the entire fight doesn't support and if anything go against Post Wano Base Luffy end up surpassing Early WCI Gear 4th Luffy.

At least relative. Also doesn't go against... You're just nitpicking and ignoring the feats

Yes it does, if a character can took a lot more damage and pain it does contribute when facing characters who are stronger.

.... Had nothing to do with what I said or related it to.

if my physical force pushes you backwards when your age 89 but can't when your age 25... That's a strength difference only.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

nearly 3 hours of this... I've said what I've needed to say, the showings are very clear... There's many instances of base luffy having shown at least relative feats to boundman, there aren't any reasons for me to continue debating and repeating this over and over

 

[Stefano4444]

1 scan where he doesn't fully get hit and the other scan where luffy has his eyes closed, gets lunched away and starts bleeding from his mouth from the hit

Yet this wasn't the main issue for Luffy, it was his time limit for Boundman, otherwise Luffy made it clear that he intended to clash with him until he was able to break his Future Sight.

That can be argued worse than a KO.

You really think that somehow its worse than getting oneshotted?

A whole new move... Just shows it to be superior from the rest.

And that somehow its definite proof that Base Luffy as grew to be relative to his previous Gear 4th? The one who was overpowering Katakuri? Despite the fact that Luffy was still losing/weaker than him until he activate Snakeman?

You also do realize that if that was the case, the moment Luffy go Snakeman the strength gap would have increased to the point that Katakuri would have just be unable to fight back like Doflamingo back in Dressrosa.

Which its the major inconsistence you seen to not realize.

Luffy is literally worn out here... Unable to defend himself...

Yet he was still capable to activate Snakeman and still continue to fight Katakuri, he was in bad conditions but he still has some energy left.

We don't even see him use haki.

The scans literally show Luffy blackening his arms with Armament Haki, so he wasn't run out of Haki yet.

At least relative. Also doesn't go against... You're just nitpicking and ignoring the feats

He is not relative either otherwise the moment he trully grew as strong as Boundman he would just dogwalk Katakuri in pure physical power, like he did the first time he used Boundman.



So either we assume Katakuri somehow was too suprassing his previous peak despite nothing in the series ever mention this, or we assume that even at that point Katakuri was still holding back by a lot which also go disprove that Luffy was getting that stronger during the fight, which i also find questionable.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yet this wasn't the main issue for Luffy, it was his time limit for Boundman, otherwise Luffy made it clear that he intended to clash with him until he was able to break his Future Sight.

yes it was.

You really think that somehow its worse than getting oneshotted?

Yes. there's a difference between getting KO'd and literally dying from blood loss from damage

If I punch you soo hard in the stomach, to the point where there's blood spewing out of your mouth... That's something insanely rare in fights, KO's happens all the time in fighting.

I really can't deal debating with you at this point...

And that somehow its definite proof that Base Luffy as grew to be relative to his previous Gear 4th? The one who was overpowering Katakuri?

Did not overpower awakening, he was only overpowering base katakuri when he lost his cool... Otherwise he was fine, strong enough to hold boundman in place

Base luffy was capable competing against awakening in the end of the fight, making him relative to Boundman. There's nothing to argue about when that's literally shown.

You also do realize that if that was the case, the moment Luffy go Snakeman the strength gap would have increased to the point that Katakuri would have just be unable to fight back like Doflamingo back in Dressrosa.

Here we go with the katakuri stuff again... Base Luffy can still be relative to boundman even if he's weaker than his past boundman self

In terms of snakeman tho, katakuri wasn't able to deal with snakeman's speed and force

Luffy's gear 4th culverin's acceleration was able to lunch katakuri away from a distance with no applied force of his full body (around 15x less weight behind the attack)

Whenever luffy did use his full body to attack, katakuri had to dodge it and used a new move with his awakening to fight against the new speed, outspeeding even snakeman and attacks him with the new move with all the force from it as well

With no great distance for acceleration or to use his full weight, he was capable of seriously damaging Katakuri

Something not shown from both base or boundman (Base used acceleration with full weight from lunching himself and boundman used the acceleration with full weight by flying at him)

Anyway, gear 4 snakeman doesn't have the power amp that boundman does... So it wouldn't be like the doffy fight anyway and snakeman never got a clean hit using his full force as well so there's nothing to compare with using snakeman so there's no actual inconsistency

Yet he was still capable to activate Snakeman and still continue to fight Katakuri, he was in bad conditions but he still has some energy left.

After resting some time...

The scans literally show Luffy blackening his arms with Armament Haki, so he wasn't run out of Haki yet.

The scans you showed beforehand was luffy getting hit without defending with his haki, which proves he was running out of stamina and haki in those scans... Where many minutes has gone by

He is not relative either otherwise the moment he trully grew as strong as Boundman he would just dogwalk Katakuri in pure physical power, like he did the first time he used Boundman.

No he wouldn't, as explained why above, Katakuri would've either avoided the attack like here

Or would've been outpaced and gotten attacked by the new moves

Relative also does not mean equal so the power amp wouldn't still be as big as your trying to say.

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah I obviously disagree with this. Luffy in base, while still inferior to base Katakuri, could hold his ground in a way that no form in his previous key could. Katakuri acknowledged him as an equal and clashed Conqueror's Haki with him, which can only happen with people of relative strength. There's no real way to debate this without mental gymnastics.

 

[Stefano4444]

yes it was.

No otherwise then explain why he was still confidently willing to clash with Katakuri, because if you are correct then Luffy would have just died if he get it a few more times.

Yes. there's a difference between getting KO'd and literally dying from blood loss from damage

Luffy only coughed some blood and that's it, where do you see the blood loss? And definitely wasn't dying.

If I punch you soo hard in the stomach, to the point where there's blood spewing out of your mouth... That's something insanely rare in fights, KO's happens all the time in fighting.

You do realize how many times in One Piece characters get hit in vital points or/and spew blood for their mouth and yet they still capable to took further punishment and keep going?

Did not overpower awakening, he was only overpowering base katakuri when he lost his cool... Otherwise he was fine, strong enough to hold boundman in place

That because he used both his Future Sight to predict the move, waited the right time and then use the Mochi to hold him long enough so use his Awakening.

Before that any of his attacks where causing a lot of damage sending him fly away with each hit, he simply couldn't just overpower his attacks like he did with Gear 3rd.

And his Awakening only affect his Attack Potency & Range, its doesn't increase his Durability.

Base luffy was capable competing against awakening in the end of the fight, making him relative to Boundman. There's nothing to argue about when that's literally shown.

Do you realize that if Base Luffy's power already grew to be relative to a full power Katakuri then there wouldn't be no point of using Gear 4th and risk depleting all his remaning energy, if he used it then there was a reason.

He already had Future Sight to close the speed gap and if he simply used Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd he would had the upper hand, and Luffy isn't someone who waste energy for nothing during a serious battle.

But that didn't happen, isn't?

In terms of snakeman tho, katakuri wasn't able to deal with snakeman's speed and force

Luffy's gear 4th culverin's acceleration was able to lunch katakuri away from a distance with no applied force of his full body (around 15x less weight behind the attack)

Wasn't able to deal? Then why the scans you show he was able to parry on time and even dodge the next one?

Whenever luffy did use his full body to attack, katakuri had to dodge it and used a new move with his awakening to fight against the new speed, outspeeding even snakeman and attacks him with the new move with all the force from it as well

First i'm pretty sure this isn't an Awakening technique, second did you previously say that Base Luffy was already capable competing against Katakuri even with Awakening, yet now you say that with Katakuri could actually outspeed Snakeman Luffy with Awakening?

With no great distance for acceleration or to use his full weight, he was capable of seriously damaging Katakuri. Something not shown from both base or boundman

Guess all this scans just be faked, also didn't Katakuri just spewing blood in one panel? Did you say that its worst than be KOed?

snakeman never got a clean hit using his full force as well so there's nothing to compare with using snakeman so there's no actual inconsistency

He did it.

After resting some time...

Did he had the opportunity to rest? The only did he did was after escaping from Brûlée and then when Katakuri was confronting his sister, beside this two Luffy and Katakuri where still fighting.

The scans you showed beforehand was luffy getting hit without defending with his haki, which proves he was running out of stamina and haki in those scans... Where many minutes has gone by

Here we see fully try to counter and defend himself with his arms clearly infused with Haki.

And then later we see him still try to attack Katakuri, where its arm its also colored in black indicating Haki.

No he wouldn't, as explained why above, Katakuri would've either avoided the attack like here

Or would've been outpaced and gotten attacked by the new moves

If Base Luffy was relative to Katakuri then the moment he unlocked Future Sight then the gap in speed would had been closed.

And with Snakeman, his speed would have just increased to the point that he would speedblitz him for the rest of the fight.

Relative also does not mean equal so the power amp wouldn't still be as big as your trying to say.

Relative still means that if they were comparable, then Base Luffy's attacks would had be able to cause damage to Katakuri comparable to his Boundman's attacks.

 

[Nierre]

when I get home (in a couple hours) I'll go through the fight and this thread just to verify. what chapters do they fight again?

 

[Stefano4444]

Katakuri acknowledged him as an equal and clashed Conqueror's Haki with him, which can only happen with people of relative strength.

Base Luffy and Doflamingo also clashed in Dressrosa, was Base Luffy already as strong as Doffy?

Don Chinjao too did have a Conqueror clash with Base Luffy, its Don Chinjao as strong as Luffy too?

 

[Kachon123]

Relative still means that if they were comparable, then Base Luffy's attacks would had be able to cause damage to Katakuri comparable to his Boundman's attacks.

We've both read the same manga Stefano, so tell me what the difference is between these two attacks damage-wise

Regardless, your point becomes moot when you realize that Katakuri's physical durability isn't the best.

 

[Stefano4444]

when I get home (in a couple hours) I'll go through the fight and this thread just to verify. what chapters do they fight again?

At the end of Chapter 878 where Luffy bring Katakuri in the Mirro-World, continuing up to Chapter 896 when the fight fully concluded.

 

[Damage3245]

when I get home (in a couple hours) I'll go through the fight and this thread just to verify. what chapters do they fight again?

They fight on and off primarily between chapter 879 and 896.

 

[Kachon123]

Base Luffy and Doflamingo also clashed in Dressrosa, was Base Luffy already as strong as Doffy?

Don Chinjao too did have a Conqueror clash with Base Luffy, its Don Chinjao as strong as Luffy too?

There's a very big difference between folks who have Conqueror's Haki clashing (literally all of the examples you posted) and 2 individuals' Conqueror's Haki clashing head to head.

 

[Stefano4444]

We've both read the same manga Stefano, so tell me what the difference is between these two attacks damage-wise

The one in the left we only see him getting hit and nothing else, and the next panel he appear Katakuri was kicking down Luffy.

The one from Boundman its different as we actually see the attack strinking with enough power to send Katakuri fly away.

How you think we can assume both attacks where relative in power if we just go with this two panel its beyond me.

 

[Kachon123]

There's a very big difference between folks who have Conqueror's Haki clashing (literally all of the examples you posted) and 2 individuals' Conqueror's Haki clashing head to head.

Also ignoring this fact, Base Luffy was relative to Chinjao, as was Doflamingo at the time of their clash.

 

[Kachon123]

The first one we only see him getting him and nothing else, and the next panel he appear Katakuri was kicking down Luffy.

He got hit and was bleeding in the first image what do you mean by "nothing else?" Katakuri being a better fighter than Luffy and landing a hit on him right after doesn't erase the fact that Luffy's attack still hurt him.

The one from Boundman its different as we actually see the attack strinking with enough power to send Katakuri fly away and make him spit blood.

Gear 4th's attacks compress and use tensile force to launch their target so sending Katakuri flying in comparison to his later base is a non-factor.

 

[Stefano4444]

Also ignoring this fact, Base Luffy was relative to Chinjao, as was Doflamingo at the time of their clash.

Doflamingo was stronger than Gear 2nd despite getting his inside sliced by Law, they were not relative.

 

[Kachon123]

There's a very big difference between folks who have Conqueror's Haki clashing (literally all of the examples you posted) and 2 individuals' Conqueror's Haki clashing head to head.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

No otherwise then explain why he was still confidently willing to clash with Katakuri, because if you are correct then Luffy would have just died if he get it a few more times.

what?

Luffy only coughed some blood and that's it, where do you see the blood loss? And definitely wasn't dying.

Only... Internal damage from blunt trauma, you don't understand how much damage and power that is

Luffy not dying isn't an argument, one piece characters survive fatal attacks many times and capable of regen just by resting, doesn't dispute the damage

You do realize how many times in One Piece characters get hit in vital points or/and spew blood for their mouth and yet they still capable to took further punishment and keep going?

What I said above.

That because he used both his Future Sight to predict the move, waited the right time and then use the Mochi to hold him long enough so use his Awakening.

Before that any of his attacks where causing a lot of damage sending him fly away with each hit, he simply couldn't just overpower his attacks like he did with Gear 3rd.

And his Awakening only affect his Attack Potency & Range, its doesn't increase his Durability.

I don't see how this means anything to what I said, your just arguing to argue at this point

Do you realize that if Base Luffy's power already grew to be relative to a full power Katakuri then there wouldn't be no point of using Gear 4th and risk depleting all his remaning energy, if he used it then there was a reason.

He already had Future Sight to close the speed gap and if he simply used Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd he would had the upper hand, and Luffy isn't someone who waste energy for nothing during a serious battle.

But that didn't happen, isn't?

WHAT???? Bro what are you even talking about...

Base luffy became relative... Not equal... Tanking multiple power mochi's and standing his ground against them

Wasn't able to deal? Then why the scans you show he was able to parry on time and even dodge the next one?

Because he had time to only block whenever they were continually accelerating... Not able to get close or to keep up... Until he used his awakening to go faster and counter attack

Guess all this scans just be faked

All those scan literally prove what I said? He's literally flying full force at him and attacking...

also didn't Katakuri just spewing blood in one panel? Did you say that its worst than be KOed?

It doesn't fully show where the blood is coming from, getting hit in the head and bleeding isn't the same as getting hit in the stomach and bleeding coming out from one's mouth

He did it.

and that took out katakuri...something boundman didn't? Thx for proving my point?

Did he had the opportunity to rest? The only did he did was after escaping from Brûlée and then when Katakuri was confronting his sister, beside this two Luffy and Katakuri where still fighting.

You can literally see katakuri talking to him and saying if that's all he got, I think if I remember correctly the anime also showed luffy resting some time

Here we see fully try to counter and defend himself with his arms clearly infused with Haki.

Before getting hit by burning mochi, yee

Here we see fully try to counter and defend himself with his arms clearly infused with Haki.

Yet didn't defend with haki like he did in the page you showed before.

If Base Luffy was relative to Katakuri then the moment he unlocked Future Sight then the gap in speed would had been closed.

And with Snakeman, his speed would have just increased to the point that he would speedblitz him for the rest of the fight.

Katakuri wasn't giving him any chances to speed blitz, he was nearly doing that at the beginning from range... Since it will continue going faster at every turn

So he used his awakening to get speed and to get close... Otherwise he wasn't going to be able to keep up and only be in defense

Relative still means that if they were comparable, then Base Luffy's attacks would had be able to cause damage to Katakuri comparable to his Boundman's attacks.

And That's basically shown? Which proves they are relative...? They don't need to be equal just enough to be relative which is shown

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with @MonkeyOfLife and thus disagree with the OP

 

[Stefano4444]

what?

You are the one who jsut say that Katakuri was heavely injuring Boundman to the point of he nearly KOed with his Awakening.

Only... Internal damage from blunt trauma, you don't understand how much damage and power that is

Of all examples you trully had to pick the guy who can use a technique which specifically bypass durability by causing internal injuries via vibration?

How its relevant to this discussion? Katakuri doesn't either generate or use vibrations in combat, he doesn't have any form of durability negation.

Also Luffy getting internal damage from blunt trauma? The guy who has a rubber body which grant him resistance to blunt attacks in the first place?

I don't see how this means anything to what I said, your just arguing to argue at this point

So are we going to just ignore that beating that Boundman was giving to Katakuri? Or do you call that a massage?

Base luffy became relative... Not equal... Tanking multiple power mochi's and standing his ground against them

Didn't it occur to you that if Base Luffy was already relative to Katakuri, and yet he still needed Gear 4th to defeat him in a close call—without even considering Gear 2nd or Gear 3rd—then perhaps, and I may be wrong, it's because Base Luffy was NEVER relative to Katakuri in the first place?

Because he had time to only block whenever they were continually accelerating... Not able to get close or to keep up... Until he used his awakening to go faster and counter attack

So you saying that Katakuri (with Awakening) its comparable to Snakeman Luffy, yet also claiming that Base Luffy was too relative to Katakuri?

This two things can't be in the same sentence and make any sense, either Katakuri = Snakeman or Base = Katakuri but then would means that Snakeman > Boundman > Gear 2nd > Base = Katakuri.

And again that's not how Awakening work, his specific Paramecia Awakening doesn't make him or was never implied to make him faster, that was just a regular ability of his Devil Fruit.

All those scan literally prove what I said? He's literally flying full force at him and attacking...

You are the one who just say that only Snakeman Luffy was able to seriously damaging Katakuri, when literally Boundman was doing just as much damage if not more.

If not when explain Katakuri didn't simply parry his attacks like he did before? Does he enjoy fly away? Its that his favourite hobby now?

It doesn't fully show where the blood is coming from, getting hit in the head and bleeding isn't the same as getting hit in the stomach and bleeding coming out from one's mouth

He was literally right in the face/head and he was trully wounded by it.

Beside you are going all about the stomach and bleeding coming out from his mouth, but i'm pretty sure getting hit in the head and bleed its just as bad if not worse than that.

You can literally see katakuri talking to him and saying if that's all he got, I think if I remember correctly the anime also showed luffy resting some time

For what just a few minutes?

Geez i'm never knew that Luffy need just a few minutes to recover from hours of hard fought fighting while having a massive hole in his left side.

Before getting hit by burning mochi, yee

And what? He still was using Haki even after that.

Yet didn't defend with haki like he did in the page you showed before.

He literally try to block his attacks wit his hands.

Katakuri wasn't giving him any chances to speed blitz, he was nearly doing that at the beginning from range... Since it will continue going faster at every turn

So he used his awakening to get speed and to get close... Otherwise he wasn't going to be able to keep up and only be in defense

So Snakeman Luffy, who its suppost to be faster than Boundman Luffy, which its faster than Gear 2nd Luffy, which its already faster than Base Luffy, who i am suppost to believe to be already relative to Katakuri's in power and speed, its only capable to speedblitz via acceleration?

Are you telling me that without acceleration Snakeman Luffy's regular speed didn't increases at all from Base, not even matching or suprassing Gear 2nd? How this make sense?

And That's basically shown? Which proves they are relative...? They don't need to be equal just enough to be relative which is shown

Not because then Luffy wouldn't be needed to use Gear 4th at that point, just go with Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd and he would have won.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You are the one who jsut say that Katakuri was heavely injuring Boundman to the point of he nearly KOed with his Awakening.


Of all examples you trully had to pick the guy who can use a technique which specifically bypass durability by causing internal injuries via vibration?

How its relevant to this discussion? Katakuri doesn't either generate or use vibrations in combat, he doesn't have any form of durability negation.

Also Luffy getting internal damage from blunt trauma? The guy who has a rubber body which grant him resistance to blunt attacks in the first place?


So are we going to just ignore that beating that Boundman was giving to Katakuri? Or do you call that a massage?


Didn't it occur to you that if Base Luffy was already relative to Katakuri, and yet he still needed Gear 4th to defeat him in a close call—without even considering Gear 2nd or Gear 3rd—then perhaps, and I may be wrong, it's because Base Luffy was NEVER relative to Katakuri in the first place?


So you saying that Katakuri (with Awakening) its comparable to Snakeman Luffy, yet also claiming that Base Luffy was too relative to Katakuri?

This two things can't be in the same sentence and make any sense, either Katakuri = Snakeman or Base = Katakuri but then would means that Snakeman > Boundman > Gear 2nd > Base = Katakuri.

And again that's not how Awakening work, his specific Paramecia Awakening doesn't make him or was never implied to make him faster, that was just a regular ability of his Devil Fruit.


You are the one who just say that only Snakeman Luffy was able to seriously damaging Katakuri, when literally Boundman was doing just as much damage if not more.

If not when explain Katakuri didn't simply parry his attacks like he did before? Does he enjoy fly away? Its that his favourite hobby now?


He was literally right in the face/head and he was trully wounded by it.

Beside you are going all about the stomach and bleeding coming out from his mouth, but i'm pretty sure getting hit in the head and bleed its just as bad if not worse than that.


For what just a few minutes?

Geez i'm never knew that Luffy need just a few minutes to recover from hours of hard fought fighting while having a massive hole in his left side.


And what? He still was using Haki even after that.


He literally try to block his attacks wit his hands.


So Snakeman Luffy, who its suppost to be faster than Boundman Luffy, which its faster than Gear 2nd Luffy, which its already faster than Base Luffy, who i am suppost to believe to be already relative to Katakuri's in power and speed, its only capable to speedblitz via acceleration?

Are you telling me that without acceleration Snakeman Luffy's regular speed didn't increases at all from Base, not even matching or suprassing Gear 2nd? How this make sense?


Not because then Luffy wouldn't be needed to use Gear 4th at that point, just go with Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd and he would have won.

Most of this is pointless to explain and argue about

Awakening is superior to boundman…

Base Luffy tanked awakening attacks and never got one shot by them, that makes him relative to boundman, that’s a literal fact.

Luffy being weaker than boundman does not disprove him being relative.

 

[Stefano4444]

Awakening is superior to boundman…

Nothing suggest Katakuri's Awakening was superior to Boundman, at best its slightly stronger but not to the point of be another level.

Boundman was still capable to took multiple Awakening's attacks and he only stopped because of the time limit, its was never about Boundman be physically weaker.

Base Luffy tanked awakening attacks and never got one shot by them, that makes him relative to boundman, that’s a literal fact.

Base Luffy did not tank anything Katakuri's attacks, not in the beginning or in the end, he always too a lot of damage from those attacks.

You know what tanking an attack actually implicate? If he was tanking Katakuri's Awakening then he would get no to little damage.

Luffy being weaker than boundman does not disprove him being relative.

It does when you want me to believe Awakening Katakuri its also suppost to be relative to Snakeman Luffy at the same time, which just doesn't work. If Base Luffy was already relative to the same Boundman who, at worst was a bit weaker than Awakening Katakuri (and not by a massive margin as you want me to believe), then Gear 4th would have just stomped Awakening Katakuri.

Both Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd already can boost Luffy's strength and speed by several magnitude as show back in Enies Lobby, if Base Luffy was just slightly inferior than Awakening Katakuri then the moment he pull his Gear 2nd he should end up with a Blueno situation where Katakuri should get overwhelmed, especially now that Luffy had his own Future Sight to even the odds.

So either Base Luffy WAS NOT relative to his previous Boundman and Katakuri in general, or in truth Katakuri was been holding back from most of the fight and only when fighting Snakeman its when he actually used his full power, which also would go against the notion of Base Luffy got relative to Katakuri in anycase.

Otherwise we end up with a massive inconsistency both power level and narrative wise, since we lack any other indications that Base Luffy was reaching Katakuri's level or that Katakuri was also getting stronger while fighting.

 

[Damage3245]

I think so far I'm more in favor of Stefano's argument that base Luffy is not equal to Katakuri.

Katakuri seems far more relative to Gear 4 Luffy throughout the fight; Luffy can take attacks from Katakuri of course, and even damage him with the occasional hit without his gears - but that doesn't make him solidly on Katakuri's level given that Katakuri can take far more powerful attacks from Luffy too. Katakuri saying he won't underestimate Luffy anymore also isn't a statement of base Luffy = Katakuri, because Katakuri is already aware of Gear 4 and Luffy's moves.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Nothing suggest Katakuri's Awakening was that superior to Boundman, at best its slightly stronger but not to the point of be another level.

Bro just trying to disagree with everything... Sure slightly stronger (even tho that's completely cap, slightly stronger would never be able to do that much damage), doesn't change what I said... Slightly stronger or fully stronger than boundman

Boundman was still capable to took multiple Awakening's attacks and he only stopped because of the time limit, its was never about Boundman be physically weaker.

Boundman was barely taking them... Base luffy was doing similar things against awakening and standing his ground

Base Luffy did not tank anything Katakuri's attacks, not in the beginning or in the end, he always too a lot of damage from those attacks.

too bad he literally did

You know what tanking an attack actually implicate? If he was tanking Katakuri's Awakening then he would get no to little damage.

Yee and he basically was...

It does when you want me to believe Awakening Katakuri its also suppost to be relative to Snakeman Luffy at the same time, which just doesn't work.

why not..

If Base Luffy was already relative to the same Boundman who, at worst was a bit weaker than Awakening Katakuri (and not by a massive margin as you want me to believe), then Gear 4th would have just stomped Awakening Katakuri.

No it wouldn't, it would only overpower it... With katakuri having even stronger techniques than his awakened power mochi

Both Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd already can boost Luffy's strength and speed by several magnitude as show back in Enies Lobby, if Base Luffy was just slightly inferior than Awakening Katakuri then the moment he pull his Gear 2nd he should end up with a Blueno situation where Katakuri should get overwhelmed, especially now that Luffy had his own Future Sight to even the odds.

No, katakuri would still have the area advantage and be cable of blitzing gear 2nd by using his rolling donut, he would still have the advantage in haki as well

in enies lobby base luffy was > blueno and gear second was just stronger... Idk where you're getting "several magnitude" from

You're also acting like luffy can just spam them even tho he was already fatally damaged and exusted at that point, he could only rely on snakeman to deal the finishing blow which resulted in him being completely unconscious after

So either Base Luffy WAS NOT relative to his previous Boundman and Katakuri in general, or in truth Katakuri was been holding back from most of the fight and only when fighting Snakeman its when he actually used his full power, which also would go against the notion of Base Luffy got relative to Katakuri in anycase.

Or base luffy was relative but weaker than katakuri and his past boundman, katakuri holding back has absolutely no proof and makes no sense whatsoever... Literally nearly cutting a hole in luffy and was been breathing heavy from fighting each other

Katakuri holding back would go against his character and to what he said to luffy

Otherwise we end up with a massive inconsistency both power level and narrative wise, since we lack any other indications that Base Luffy was reaching Katakuri's level or that Katakuri was also getting stronger while fighting.

There's no inconsistency at all, you're just making things up that just aren't true and ignoring many factors to why luffy couldn't just stomp katakuri at anytime after

I think so far I'm more in favor of Stefano's argument that base Luffy is not equal to Katakuri.

Katakuri seems far more relative to Gear 4 Luffy throughout the fight; Luffy can take attacks from Katakuri of course, and even damage him with the occasional hit without his gears - but that doesn't make him solidly on Katakuri's level given that Katakuri can take far more powerful attacks from Luffy too. Katakuri saying he won't underestimate Luffy anymore also isn't a statement of base Luffy = Katakuri, because Katakuri is already aware of Gear 4 and Luffy's moves.

That still scales luffy relative to that value (Past Boundman and Katakuri)... Luffy being equal isn't anywhere on his profile, just that he became relative enough to scale

(Much stronger than before. Charlotte Katakuri acknowledged Luffy's strength, stating that he did not see him as inferior. Clashed with many of Katakuri's Awakened Mochi fists before landing a strike on the side of his face)

 

[Damage3245]

That still scales luffy relative to that value (Past Boundman and Katakuri)... Luffy being equal isn't anywhere on his profile, just that he became relative enough to scale

It doesn't seem like anything Luffy did against Katakuri there, like landing a strike on the side of his face in the quoted justification there, is close to relative to the Gear 4 strikes Luffy was landing on Katakuri earlier.

 

[Stefano4444]

too bad he literally did

The panel show the opposite, with Luffy arm shaking in pain by blocking just one of those punches and having difficulty defending himself.

Allow me to give you an actual example of tanking an attack:

No blood, no damage and no bruises.

Literally neither Boundman's example or Base Luffy's example fit the definition of tanking.

No it wouldn't, it would only overpower it... With katakuri having even stronger techniques than his awakened power mochi

The only other non-Awakening techinque that can be argue to be stronger than his Muso Donuts are the Zan Giri Mochi, which he only used against Snakeman, and Yaki Mochi, which overpower Base Luffy.

No, katakuri would still have the area advantage and be cable of blitzing gear 2nd by using his rolling donut,

The Rolling Donut doesn't make Katakuri faster than he usually is, or at least i only see affecting his attack speed.

Meaning Katakuri's regular combat speed and reactions would still be the same, just a bit higher than Post Future Sight Base Luffy.

The moment Luffy use his Snakeman he should have outspeed if not speedblitz Katakuri from beginning to end, the latter would just be incapable to fully react to Snakeman's attacsk and wouldn't have the opportunity to use his Rolling Donut.

Post FS Base Luffy <= Awakening Katakuri <= Post FS Gear 2nd Luffy < Post FS Boundman Luffy < Post FS Snakeman Luffy < Rollin Donut Katakuri.

And even that the moment he finish the move Snakeman Luffy will return having the speed advantage.

he would still have the advantage in haki as well

No, because then strength boost given by Gear 2nd would have already close the small gap between the two or even giving him enough strength to suprass Katakuri.

Snakeman then would just make the gap bigger, so much so Awakening Katakuri should logically not be able to compete at that point.

in enies lobby base luffy was > blueno and gear second was just stronger... Idk where you're getting "several magnitude" from

Base Luffy initially took Blueno by suprise as he understimate him, but when he started fighting seriously he still manage to keep up with Luffy.

Only then Luffy decide to go Gear 2nd and end up overpower/outspeed him.

You're also acting like luffy can just spam them even tho he was already fatally damaged and exusted at that point

So he didn't have enough stamina to use Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd. A forms which he already master them during the Timeskip to the point that he can activate/disactivate them without causing excessive strain on his body, and that even in Fishman Island he could use them even when heavy bleeding thanks of Hody Jones.

Yet he still end up using Gear 4th anyway? A form which he hasn't mastered, which requid likely even more stamina to maintain it, as he could only use for 10 minutes and that if he couldn't defeat Katakuri in that timeframe he would no longer be able to use haki to defend himself?

This does not compute.

Literally nearly cutting a hole in luffy and was been breathing heavy from fighting each other

Sure lets ignore the beating he got from Boundman which did injure him, or that later he wounded in the side, like those things where never a factor.

Beside all of that only demostrate that his Stamina its inferior to Luffy, as he can't fight as long as him and can't surstain as much damage as him, none of this correspond to Katakuri's strength/speed.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It doesn't seem like anything Luffy did against Katakuri there, like landing a strike on the side of his face in the quoted justification there, is close to relative to the Gear 4 strikes Luffy was landing on Katakuri earlier.

So base luffy punching against awakened katakuri and landing a hit isn't even close to relative?

Or luffy defending against awakening as well? Or even fighting against Katakuri and his awakening for way more than an hour?

... Like... Yee alright...

 

[Damage3245]

Or luffy defending against awakening as well? Or even fighting against Katakuri and his awakening for way more than an hour?

Luffy has insane endurance & stamina, but Katakuri's AP is higher. And I said base Luffy's hits weren't relative to his Boundman attacks.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Luffy has insane endurance & stamina

which doesn't relate to how much damage luffy receives from an attack

And I said base Luffy's hits weren't relative to his Boundman attacks.

You said Luffy's hits weren't even close to relative even when he was fighting against an on guard awakening katakuri, landing a blow that made him splew out blood

That's just absolute bs to me

 

[Robo432343]

@Dark_Soul20189

 

[Damage3245]

You said Luffy's hits weren't even close to relative even when he was fighting against an on guard awakening katakuri, landing a blow that made him splew out blood

That's just absolute bs to me

Compare the difference in effect there of Luffy hitting Katakuri in base form with Luffy hitting Katakuri with Gear 4, and it's pretty clear Luffy's punch there isn't close.

 

[Kachon123]

Luffy was literally clashing with Katakuri's Power Mochi fists and managed to land a hit on him in the middle of the barrage. Boundman was getting injured by those same Power Mochi fists. It's impossible to debate we're looking at the same panels I'm so confused