Yet another Dressrosa CRT

[Davidsteel1]

@Plum I might be shooting myself in the foot for even carrying on here but, if he's a "stone assimilation man" doesn't that immediately suggest he has to full on assimilate into the stone to manipulate it? That isn't evidence supporting physical exertion instead that comes across more like a prerequisite for his abilities. Like tactile telekinesis, it's still telekinesis and is wholly mental but now it has a prerequisite that demands physical contact b4 it can be activated.

Plus if I take you at your word, the very act of "merging his consciousness" with the stone in order to manipulate it immediately means the matter is no longer purely based on physical strength, now there is further reason to argue that it's a mental matter since he's actively spreading his consciousness across the material in question.

 

[Damage3245]

@Davidsteel1; agreed. I've always just thought of the assimilation as a prequisite to manipulating the stone.

As such I believe it's fine to do what we currently do and divide his ratings based on his base physicals, and his stone manipulation. The latter should not backscale to the former.

 

[The_Calaca]

I'm sorry, what? First of all, we can't compare Haki with DFs. The applications and mechanics are totally different. Nor we can attribute the panting to Zoro exhausting Pica when they barely clashed before while Pica was safe and sound inside the RP attacking them from the sides and Zoro not doing a damn thing to him. Or are you saying that fighting Zoro pushed Pica's stamina despite he only fought him hidden inside the Plateau? I also pointed out that the rage button made Pica go all-out but not scream, so why would he heavy breath if he didn't lose it after going beyond what his lungs are capable of?

I find hilarious how you guys were stubbornly saying that this isn't Telekinesis while supporting your opposition by relying on mental Power's weaknesses.

I still don't see the evidence outside of a flawed scan and AoE fallacy that Pica is stronger the more stone he gathers. Its purpose is entirely different.

 

[Damage3245]

If Pica has demonstrably more powerful attacks when he has access to more stone, I'm not seeing how that is an AoE fallacy.

I'm pretty sure you're one of the people who told me in the past that we don't need everything explicitly spelled out to us. We don't need a statement of someone saying "He doubled his stone golems size so his attack power is much greater" in order to judge whether or not Pica's is capable of more powerful attacks.

 

[Davidsteel1]

I can't speak for anyone else but what I can say is that I'm not arguing telekinesis specifically, I'm arguing that physical exhaustion in fiction isn't always indicative of physical exertion especially when dealing with supernatural powers. Telekinesis is simply a straightforward and easy comparison to make.

But if that's a problem, a more apt comparison I suppose would be King Bumi from Atla. He also shows considerable physical strain when bending (most especially when he's lifting) but there is a reason his lifting strength is only placed at Superhuman.

 

[Damage3245]

@Davidsteel1; well said. Bumi is a pretty good example to use.

 

[Xulrev]

Alright so not only are we relying on Calaca's claim that Pica must be physically exerting himself and moving every ounce of the stone in his giant golems with his own strength due to literally one instance of 'huff huff', but now we must somehow dismiss the notion of "Big mass of stone hits harder the more stone that is in it"?

Come off it, man. Pirates explicitly call out the fact that Pica's giant golem fist is as large as a town, and guess what? It obliterates most of a town on-contact. Literally, and I do mean this in the strictest sense possible, nothing whatsoever supports Pica having the same base AP as his giant golem, and the narrative directly points out that the big golem man hits harder cuz there's more stone in his golems. It is quite literally a plot point, and why he is a threat: he's a huge mass of stone.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Davidsteel Well, I'm not an expert on F4 universe and will not pretend to be. If you say her physicals are different and her abilities are proven to be telekinesis I'll take your word on that and give you the benefit of the doubt you have proof. That said, you bring up one example from an entirely diffetent series. That's hardly evidence of Pica moving the stone with his mind which I've yet to see from either you, @Damage, or @Xulrev.

Furthremore, even if it was esoteric ability causing physical strain, that simply furthers proof that esoteric abilities and base stats are interrlated and seperating them is a flawed practice. In other words if Pica does it esoterically (Which no one has proven btw) then that still correlates to what he can do physically.

Bottom line Pica has to be physically in contact with the stone in order to move it around and is physically effected from moving said stone. Clear cut physicals. There is zero evidence he ever uses telekinesis.

Good news is that the difference between the two is relatively small. We could always scale Pica from Zoro from Issho's high 7-A if need be which is also relatively close in stats.

At least 7-A, possibly high 7-A might be what we end up with.

 

[Damage3245]

> We could always scale Pica from Zoro from Issho's high 7-A if need be which is also relatively close in stats.

No, we couldn't. That's also an entirely different topic.

> Furthremore, even if it was esoteric ability causing physical strain, that simply furthers proof that esoteric abilities and base stats are interrlated and seperating them is a flawd practice.

I don't see how. Just because they cause physical strain doesn't mean you can accomplish the same feats physically without using the abilities.

 

[Xulrev]

@Dr Fix

Based on how Burden of Proof works, it's not on me or Damage to PROVE Pica does such a thing. We just introduce reasonable doubt. It's on Calaca to objectively prove his thesis (Pica moves all of his stone physically). Damage and I have been pointing out flaws or contextual errors with such a strong claim.

For instance, people breathe heavily for other reasons. Or, Picas inability to manipulate his attacks such as Charlestone or Pulpostone without tactile telekinesis or some variant similar power.

In short: Damage and I have introduced proper doubt. No objective proof dismisses the credibility of our doubt introduced, therefore the thesis cannot stand.

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Drfix I mean, technically the greater burden rests on Calaca and those who agree with him.

You're the ones making the claim that Pica manipulating stone is based on his physicals so u have to present sufficient evidence backing that particular claim, the opposition on the other hand doesn't need to prove that the ability is mental, all they need to do is cast sufficient reasonable doubt on the evidence provided, which is all that's been done.

Its been pointed out how supernatural powers aren't always directly tied into the physical strength of characters, telekinesis and bending are highlighted separately as evidence of such and it's been pointed out how physical exhaustion isn't always tied to physical effort (meaning "breathing hard" isn't sufficient justification)

 

[Dr.Fix]

As it stands Pica does and has for sometime scaled to moving the stone with his own power and other characters scale in turn. I can see the confusion though since @Calaca brought up the OP. What he wants is for Zoro and others to get a higher lifting strength but Tiers are a different matter. If @Damage or anyone else wants to "Change the current standard" then they have to bring proof Pica uses telepathy, which, I and others have already pointed out is fundamentally opposed to what Pica does.

Also "Tactile Kinesis" does not exist. Check Telekinesis page.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix. I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Tactile Telekinesis is a "real" superpower, look it up.

I, and most of the others here, aren't trying to "change the current standard". We're arguing in favor of keeping Pica's page justifications pretty similar to how they're currently written. This thread is trying to change that by scaling all of Pica's feats to his base physicals.

And nobody is arguing in favor of telepathy.

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump.

 

[Damage3245]

Are there any other arguments to be proposed for why we should change Pica's page?

If not I think that we can say this is concluded for now and press on with the revisions for Pica and other characters scaled to him based on the calc changes.

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

OBJECTION!

"Slams hand at Table"

Pica only has the power to merge with the stone,that doens't necessarily mean every time he merges with stone means he going to experience the weight he lifts everyday with his arm

 

[Xulrev]

It's been over 24 hours since Dr Fix responded with an argument, and 48 since the OP of the thread has. I think most evidence points toward discrediting the notion of Pica scaling to his DF ability, and no pertinent evidence has been brought forth showing he does so beyond the 'huff huff' scan.

@Damage I think, due to the agreement for your points and mine, and based on lack of new rebuttals, it's concluded for now unless someone wants to ask Calaca on his wall to reply again

 

[Eminiteable]

I think they asked you two to provide scans.

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; scans for what? We're not the ones proposing changes to Pica's profile.

 

[Xulrev]

I think they asked you two to provide scans.

Which is ironic since they didn't provide proof of their assertion, and we already decried it

 

[The_Calaca]

You did nothing, but I've been really stressed and this thread and your counter-arguments did nothing good with my mental state.

So I'm dropping the discussion here, because you two were constantly denying the suggestion with long stretches about the arguments, inventing the mechanics of the fruit and literally denying everything.

But that's it. I'm closing this before I get another mental breakdown for this.