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Zamasu Strikes again

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Yeah let's stop him before he destroys anything oh wait That argument only works if they started ASAP and if he didn't destroy anything to begin with. It makes zero sense.

It makes zero sense to say Solaris can't destroy the multiverse when that was outright what he was gonna do.
 
@Theuser, are you seriously implying Solaris destroyed the multiverse? He didn't do it yet because that's what Eggman said he was GOING to do, it's literally the inevitable and the only feat he has is baseline 2-C. FFS he's only said to destroy existing timelines by Eggman, not the whole multiverse.
 
Yes because that's obvious, the rift was the reason why every thing was there.

It's stated he would destroy every thing to nothing by Shadow and Eggman himself

This is starting to feel like trolling
 
>The point is to stop Solaris before he destroys the multiverse

Even though he clearly started with two dimensions but NO ONE even bothers why to actually acknowledge why and say it's irrelevant. Why is it irrelevant that he was taking so long? How can characters with finite speeds collect Emeralds before a character with immeasurable speed destroys the multiverse? Do you see the issue? It boils down to Solaris' speed or AP.
 
Because of the rift, the instability of everything caused it, but it wasn't going to remain for longer, thus they had to worry, this is clear on the level End of the World

He didn't destroy only two at all

Zamasu is repeating himself, this is when a admin closes something that has been almost rejected by everyone, wink wink Cal
 
I agree with most of the stuff on here, I personally think that the multiple timelines thing in Shadow the Hedgehog is complete bullshit and only one of the endings is truly canon.
 
ChocomilkAlex said:
I agree with most of the stuff on here, I personally think that the multiple timelines thing in Shadow the Hedgehog is complete bullshit and only one of the endings is truly canon.
Click to expand...
That wasn't being used as part of the AP justification though.
 
ChocomilkAlex said:
I agree with most of the stuff on here, I personally think that the multiple timelines thing in Shadow the Hedgehog is complete bullshit and only one of the endings is truly canon.
Click to expand...
The Egg Wizard and Solaris stuff of the OP was debunked tho
 
>"For starters it assumes that all special stages, from all games, with each Emerald, has its own space time, which results in the 100+ universes idea. However, this scan elaborates on these dimensions. It says it's "a parallel universe during special stages". Not only is parallel universe singular but it also says "stages" which is plural, implying that all the stages are in one dimension. It's also very bold to claim that all games with special stages are different dimensions because they're different games, that's head canon an there's absolutely zero evidence backing up said claim. It's just one parallel universe that houses different special stages. "

No. What would be bold is assuming that the special stage dimension from Sonic Chaos applies to literally all other special stages in the series, when numerous times that idea has been contradicted. I mentioned how Sonic Chaos had its own dimension in my post for special stages. You're needlessely elaborating on something that's already been covered.

>"Next is the Shadow The Hedgehog situation, which will be brief. Shadow The Hedgehog isn't like a regular game with different endings, it only has one true ending to the story that's actually canonical. All the alternate endings are just there for extra gameplay and unlocking the true ending which makes the existence of these pathways utterly pointless."

Firstly, provide some actual evidence for this point please, as this is major burden of proof. Furthermore, to say the existence of the pathways are "utterly pointless," is a very odd statement considering how the developers included them regardless. Just because there's a single favorable ending doesn't mean there aren't numerous routes and histories that all get to the ending or numerous routes and histories at all.

>"lastly is Sonic CD and it's supposed 28 timelines and many worlds theory. The many worlds theory is never even expanded upon and is headcanon. It's never stated that new worlds are made when different events happen or even when someone time travels."

Zamasu. I, the creator of that post, have re-affirmed numerous times that the many worlds theory is inapplicable due to its inconsistency. I said that in the post and in the thread where we were going back over the scaling. Hell, it's not even headcanon, it's a literal interpretation of what that is. If someone describes a ball of gas in outerspace that's super hot, it's not wrong to say it's a star.

>"Although Sonic is stated to warp to new dimensions, it's directly contradicted by the fact that the past that Sonic travels to only has an effect on his universe. The 28 universes also makes no sense for two reasons. There are only two futures, not more than one past and not more than one present. That means there would be only two timelines at best. One that results in the good future and one that results in the bad future."

How would that contradict them being new dimensions? Also, the idea that "There are only two futures, not more than one past and not more than one present," is contradicted directly by the warp to new dimensions statement, so you can't argue for it. There are numerous confirmed dimensions here.

>"To starts this off it only states Solaris shattered timelines. It specifically said timelines and it never mentions it was all of them. It wouldn't make sense to be all of them anyway because Sonic's timeline is still intact and everyone is still alive. This automatically disproves Solaris can destroy the entire multiverse in one shot."

No it doesn't, you're just insane! Literally nobody argues that Solaris waking up corrupted the entire multiverse, it's Eggman's later statement that since he IS awake NOW, he's going to destroy the entire multiverse. This is a false equivalence, irrelevant, and a hasty generalization, which are all fallacious. This is the worst point you've made yet.

>"Solaris shattered timelines in an unknown timeframe. There was a cutaway right after he transformed and cutaways can have really arbitrary timing. Even after Solaris exposition and collecting Chaos Emeralds that were scattered across time and space, Sonic's universe wasn't destroyed. This only implies that Solaris was destroying them a few at a time."

Again, Solaris merely awaking is not the same as Solaris taking action while he's awake. Plus, the cutaway was the characters being sent to the rift in a few seconds. To assume that because there's a loading screen between cutscenes means that there's a huge jump in time is totally non-sensical and headcanon. Furthermore, this wouldn't contradict his full power in any way as him waking up is STILL different from him doing stuff while he's awake.

>"Theres another thing I wanted to bring up and it's the assumption that Solaris is more powerful than the Egg Wizard. Eggman had a scanner that measured the Emeralds and the PoTS which is measurable evidence that Eggman's statement is legit. Even Sonic himself said he stands no chance by himself against the Egg Wizard but says no such thing against Solaris with even Shadow claiming that this might be a fair fight. It's pretty blatant that The PoTS > the Emeralds. Just because Sonic and Blaze beat it doesn't automatically make them stronger than the PoTS, that's the most simple minded way of thinking. Sonic and Blaze had to strategize, use its own attacks against it, could've gotten obliterated by the Egg Wizard's final attack, and only truly defeated it after it was distracted and his guard was down. It doesn't even make sense to Scale Sonic to the Egg Wizard because three Supers can't naturally harm Solaris Phase 2."

Solaris is more powerful than the Egg Wizard. The PoTS is only 2 dimensions, Solaris is into the hundreds. However you're making some pretty big assumptions here.

Even though narratively Super Sonic wouldn't have beaten Egg Wizard on his own, the mere fact that he can still harm him in combat doesn't degrade his tier. If you look at the power scaling page, it says that even if 2 characters are required to perform a feat, we don't divide the joules required by 2. Plus you can't use multipliers or anti-multipliers in higher-dimensional feats because they don't function by 3-Dimesional numbers.

They aren't automatically stronger, they directly scale. Plus, saying they "could've gotten obliterated" is absolutely not true as the characters have invulnerability. Sonic did the finishing punch while the Eggmen were distracted, and just because they were off guard doesn't mean the machine would become weaker. While we often become weaker off guard, machines don't because they're machines. Also, saying Super Sonic can't scale to a 2 dimensions feat because he can't harm a 500+ dimensions character is a false equivalence and is absolutely false and contradictory.

>"Yes but it was implied to hold back because Nega mentions using a fraction of its power. It also stated to show some of its true power with the planet busting laser. Sonic and Blaze couldn't even stop the PBL and they needed the Egg Wizard to be distracted."

A fraction of 2-C is still 2-C because you can't use anti-multipliers in higher-dimensional scaling. Also, the "true power with the planet busting laser" is just an error of inconsistent writing.

>"Inb4 you say holding back doesn't lower the durability, then how do you explain the Egg Wizard being harmed by its own suppressed attacks? Is the Egg Wizard even equally as durable? This disproves Sonic being stronger than the PoTS."

Because suppressed 2-C is STILL 2-C. The Egg Wizard is of course as durable or it'd die from attacking. No, this doesn't disprove anything.

>"A paradox isn't a feat. This same scenario happened in Sonic Boom where Lord Eggman was in Sonic's universe and it was being destroyed because of his existence."

The Power of the Stars were LITERALLY SAID to be capable of merging, destroying or creating 2 dimensions.

>"We only knew there was a tear in Sonic's universe and it was getting bigger over the course of the entire game and we had no clue what was happening with Blaze's dimension. The universes had to restore themselves (13:20) with the restoration pulling Sonic and Blaze against their will. This raises two questions. If the universes could restore themselves so easily wouldn't that mean the tear wasn't that big to begin with? Secondly, why couldn't Sonic or Blaze stop the destruction? Simply put, Supers don't have 2-C range especially when Sonic doesn't have Reality Warping anymore"

Again, you're using writing inconsistencies as an actual basis of an argument.

>"Even then we don't count shared 2-C feats as 2-C feats for each individual character."

YES, we do.

>"Solaris already shattered timelines my guy, not destroying the universe in time is what you call an anti feat or a timeframe, he can't destroy them all at once."

Again, waking up is different from taking action while awake. This isn't an anti-feat by any means and he's still capable of destroying the cosmology.

Conclusion

Stop using fallacies to argue your points. Everything here is based off of writing errors, lies or false equivalences. Nothing here contradicts any of the cosmological points or the scaling and this is a hell of a poor excuse to downgrade anything or anyone.
 
I disagree with Darksspine's reasonings, mainly for the Shadow the Hedgehog portion of the logic. A lot of it's a matter of burden of proof having to do with not having to prove a negative.
 
The real cal howard said:
I disagree with Darksspine's reasonings, mainly for the Shadow the Hedgehog portion of the logic. A lot of it's a matter of burden of proof having to do with not having to prove a negative.
Click to expand...
Elaborate Cal. You literally justs said "I disagree, it's bruden of proof."

How can I even have burden of proof when he made the original claims against these feats?
 
Alright. Responding.

>Solaris being into the hundreds.

No. The only thing that got accepted was the obvious ones + the Special Zones, the latter is even being questioned. The alternate endings are never ever seen as separate universes in anything, and we never ever consider them separate timelines in fiction. Allowing that would be massive favoritism for Sonic. Even ShadowWarrior wasn't for that. They're non-canon endings. End of story.

"Warping into new dimensions" is as much proof as time travel allowing new universes as the transcending spacetime statements in the blurb are for Dragon Ball being immeasurable. Could just as easily being talking about time travel as time is seen as the fourth dimension.

I'll go into detail on the Special Zones being alternate universes in another post. But what I got was that there's no proof that they're all separate and you have to prove that they're unique special zones, as it makes no sense for the same seven emeralds to constantly seek out new dimensions when they get put back.

>Egg Wizard

I agree with you there, tbh. Egg Wizard is 2-C. And at Solaris being > Egg Wizard. I'm just not entirely sold on Egg Salamander.
 
The real cal howard said:
"Warping into new dimensions" is as much proof as time travel allowing new universes as the transcending spacetime statements in the blurb are for Dragon Ball being immeasurable. Could just as easily being talking about time travel as time is seen as the fourth dimension.
Click to expand...
Dimensions definitely means universes here. They weren't referring to spatiotemporal dimensions.
 
>"The alternate endings are never ever seen as separate universes in anything, and we never ever consider them separate timelines in fiction. Allowing that would be massive favoritism for Sonic. Even ShadowWarrior wasn't for that. They're non-canon endings. End of story."

The definition of a timeline is a series of events. Each different route is its own history. Literally nothing contradicts this, it's just others being iffy about it with zero contradictory points. Allowing it wouldn't be favoritism, it'd be going off of fact.

It doesn't matter what ShadowWarrior was for as other opinions are irrelevant. Furthermore, just because they're not the main timeline doesn't make them non-canon separate timelines. They're still just as valid. It isn't "End of story," you don't get to decide that.

>""Warping into new dimensions" is as much proof as time travel allowing new universes as the transcending spacetime statements in the blurb are for Dragon Ball being immeasurable. Could just as easily being talking about time travel as time is seen as the fourth dimension."

No, it's solid. Talking about time travel even in the 4th dimensional sense wouldn't make sense because it says new dimensions, not just through the 4th.

>"I'll go into detail on the Special Zones being alternate universes in another post. But what I got was that there's no proof that they're all separate and you have to prove that they're unique special zones, as it makes no sense for the same seven emeralds to constantly seek out new dimensions when they get put back."

That's wrong. There's not a need for them being separated, there was a single game-specific scan saying that those game-specific special stages are united. As far as we know, that's a non-typical occurence and you'd need evidence going against them being separate since it's a standard assumption. You're shifting the burden of proof to me, which is a fallacy. Also please elaborate on how the Chaos Emeralds clearly go to the same dimensions in every Sonic game even though they're clearly different with variations in their form and with different backgrounds and worlds, since apparently that's the more sensible option.

>"I agree with you there, tbh. Egg Wizard is 2-C. And at Solaris being > Egg Wizard. I'm just not entirely sold on Egg Salamander."

Afaik there was nothing in the post about Egg Salamander, so bringing this up is irrelevant and we shouldn't do it.
 
@Darksspine, again, I don't have to prove a negative. It's up to you to prove that these clearly non-canon endings are indeed other timelines. It is completely not fact, and the contradiction is that we never see them ever. Same with the special zones. The burden of proof is on you, not me. Prove the positive.
 
If it really means spatial dimensions then there's multiple of them as Darksspine pointed out, universe would be better for you Cal, plus it fits since time travel does cause other universes as with the whole Silver timeline thing
 
Theuser789 said:
If it really means spatial dimensions then there's multiple of them as Darksspine pointed out, universe would be better for you Cal, plus it fits since time travel does cause other universes as with the whole Silver timeline thing
Click to expand...
Silver's future timeline coming as a result of a change in the past makes no sense.
 
Anyways I definitvely agree with the CD and special stages, the Shadow timelines is harder but we do see in the franchise multiple timelines being created because of choice like CD or 06 and all, the last story could have happened on the main timeline, but I can see the hesitation in it plus the more the merrier
 
Also, just to reiterate, I'm totally not against 2-C Solaris or Egg Wizard. Both Solaris and the PotS have clear tier 2 feats.
 
No. What would be bold is assuming that the special stage dimension from Sonic Chaos applies to literally all other special stages in the series, when numerous times that idea has been contradicted. I mentioned how Sonic Chaos had its own dimension in my post for special stages. You're needlessely elaborating on something that's already been covered.

  • You took it out of context. It says rescue the five Emeralds from the parallel universe. Not only is this singular but it says all the emeralds are in this dimension as well as special stages. Why would you assume it's each Emerald is in a different universe when the guide says otherwise? A universe is really big I think a parallel dimension can hold a bunch of building sized special stages.
Firstly, provide some actual evidence for this point please, as this is major burden of proof. Furthermore, to say the existence of the pathways are "utterly pointless," is a very odd statement considering how the developers included them regardless. Just because there's a single favorable ending doesn't mean there aren't numerous routes and histories that all get to the ending or numerous routes and histories at all.

  • It's simple actually, the game only has one true ending. There's no time travel or any awareness of other dimensions like Sonic CD. The Shadow thing wasn't accepted anyway.
Zamasu. I, the creator of that post, have re-affirmed numerous times that the many worlds theory is inapplicable due to its inconsistency. I said that in the post and in the thread where we were going back over the scaling. Hell, it's not even headcanon, it's a literal interpretation of what that is. If someone describes a ball of gas in outerspace that's super hot, it's not wrong to say it's a star.

  • Ok? I didn't know you said it's inconsistent I don't track your every move, idk why you got so defensive here.
How would that contradict them being new dimensions? Also, the idea that "There are only two futures, not more than one past and not more than one present," is contradicted directly by the warp to new dimensions statement, so you can't argue for it. There are numerous confirmed dimensions here.

  • Are you basing all that stuff on a flawed statement? During gameplay there aren't different past or present events, there's only to good future and the bad future. Each level has its good or bad future aesthetics and all the levels in the good future are in one timeline and all levels in the bad future are in one timeline. The game also has two endings. What is said in a manual is contradicted by what is shown in the actual game and what is shown > what is told.
The Power of the Stars were LITERALLY SAID to be capable of merging, destroying or creating 2 dimensions.

  • One, that's in Sonic Rush adventure, two that's from a wiki page edited by some random bonehead on fandom, three I've looked through all the scripts, nothing states that worlds are merging, only that they're being destroyed.
Again, you're using writing inconsistencies as an actual basis of an argument.

  • It proves that Super Sonic doesn't have 2-C range.
YES we do.

You seem pretty emotional on the subject, calling me insane and stuff. Maybe you can chill a little bit? After all, it's just a fictional hedgehog.
 
The real cal howard said:
Theuser789 said:
If it really means spatial dimensions then there's multiple of them as Darksspine pointed out, universe would be better for you Cal, plus it fits since time travel does cause other universes as with the whole Silver timeline thing
Click to expand...
Silver's future timeline coming as a result of a change in the past makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Silver's future would be the original one, and his time travel created a new one which is the one we all know and hopefully love, that's what I meant
 
The real cal howard said:
@Darksspine, again, I don't have to prove a negative. It's up to you to prove that these clearly non-canon endings are indeed other timelines. It is completely not fact, and the contradiction is that we never see them ever. Same with the special zones. The burden of proof is on you, not me. Prove the positive.
Click to expand...
Again, you're shifting the burden of proof. You made the original claim that we can't assert them to be separate, I showed evidence through them being connected being inconsistent, and I substantiated my point. You're simply asking "oh, but can we do it?", I say yes, and then you say "burden of proof is on you." Stop throwing around the fallacy needlessely because you're both being fallacious on your own and holding back the point from continuing.
 
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