Upside Down Man/Great Evil Beast revisions

[Antvasima]

Well, we are going in circles here. Deagonx has repeatedly explained why a The Presence/The Source > Perpetua > Hecate = The Upside-Down Man > The Great Evil Beast = The Presence scaling sequence does not make any sense, and applying an extra key to TUDM scaled from The Great Evil Beast at its peak does not make sense either, so I think that we should either give TGEB a post-retcon extra key scaled from TUDM, or strictly focus on Hecate's and TUDM's own personal feats for their scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

Uh Ant, I don't think I can really help here. Mostly because I have no idea what's being suggested and what arguments went through.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Y3kthunder]

Contradictions? Of Lucifer being geb? Which ones though he fits the bill to a T they exist in the same verse. There biggest enemy is the exact same being. There share a common name. There roles are exactly the same and the represent the same thing like ive already said i dont see why them being faces or viewpoints are contradictory considering from everything ive posted is what dan was getting at. On top of that you have a visual an intent. The old biggest problem came from the original sandman which doesn't matter now as this is canon to that. Now it seems the biggest issue was tht particular issue was never referenced i dont see that as being all that contradicting. Which is why ive stuck with what ive said

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There is 0 evidence that Lucifer is the Great Darkness and that contradicts both the original story and Justice League Dark. Justice League Dark merely has the Darkness from the original story be a sliver of the full thing.

 

[Malomtek]

Actually, it looks like he wasn't stabbed in the back by Sandalphon and was never imprisoned.

The scan you posted really doesn't say anything either way about whether or not Sandalphon backstabbed Michael or not.

If this is the same Michael as the 2000 Michael then this shouldnt be happening

Michael getting weak and disappearing because there's less of the Presence's Will to go around is contradictory to his role as the bearer of the Demiurge, God's second, basically him being the Presence 2.0.

The scan doesn't say that Michael got weak or disappeared. It doesn't even reference or show Michael, unless that emaciated and attacked angel at the bottom panel is supposed to be him, which contradicts the "disappearing" part of the argument you made, and provides plenty explanation for the "weak" part.

We should be reading "inconsistencies" into stories when there aren't any.

 

[Deagonx]

how is it incompatible?

I've explained this multiple times in the thread.

I think that we should either give TGEB a post-retcon extra key scaled from TUDM, or strictly focus on Hecate's and TUDM's own personal feats for their scaling.

This seems logical to me.

There is 0 evidence that Lucifer is the Great Darkness and that contradicts both the original story and Justice League Dark

The evidence is that the Great Darkness appeared behind Lucifer along with his other aspects (the snake in the Garden, etc). Likewise, JLD heavily contradicts the original story. A sliver of the Otherkind can't be equal to the Presence when the Multiverse and Dark Multiverse in their entireties are far inferior to him. Likewise, there's no reason why a sliver of the Otherkind would have the kind of personality that the Great Darkness had, or how it would have gotten to the multiverse at all.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The evidence is that the Great Darkness appeared behind Lucifer along with his other aspects (the snake in the Garden, etc). Likewise, JLD heavily contradicts the original story. A sliver of the Otherkind can't be equal to the Presence when the Multiverse and Dark Multiverse in their entireties are far inferior to him. Likewise, there's no reason why a sliver of the Otherkind would have the kind of personality that the Great Darkness had, or how it would have gotten to the multiverse at all.

The Great Darkness is never referenced on panel just on a tweet and tweets aren't canon.

 

[Deagonx]

The Great Darkness is never referenced on panel

The hand behind Lucifer is the Great Darkness. It's resemblance to the Great Darkness is what prompted the question in the first place, and the author confirmed that it was. Even without the author's confirmation, that's clearly the Great Darkness' hand from American Gothic.

 

[Y3kthunder]

This^ is what geb looks like.
This is what some of lucifers avatars look like. see a striking resemblance between the two hands? Now lets again take a quick look at what the author said about this seen you can see it Here so now you can say there is a visual and author intent.
Here you have a nun calling the adversary satan something that if youve read lucifers current series he has been called a lot so im not gonna post a scan of that. One last thing id like to point out on this image note the backgroud next to the nuns head its an image of Michael spearing lucifer i dont think thats an accident

Here you have cain state geb is the soul of darkness. An is the ultimate dark he is a fundamental and absolute force sounds an aweful lot like the concept of dark.
To further back this up you have swampy believing the geb and light hand are gone to which stranger replies no not gone light an dark are all around us only the conflict has altered this sounds light more evidence of geb being the concept of dark you may check it Here
And to futher back this up

^you have etrigan tell him he is evil completely devoid of all gods light or good what have you.
Nowi think ive done a pretty good job at showcasing that lucifer is the concept of dark or evil what have you so im not gonna rehash all that ill just post this one image. That ill link Here
Here we have the spectre tell geb he defines the light

And here we have swamp thing decribing how geb defines the light just in a different way
And now we have lucifer stating he defines his light as well as seen Here. An which is further backed up by the link ive already posted
Here we have stranger tell us that the light an dark or geb an the hand are co dependent something that has been already stated an shown in the lucifer series

And both are locked in an enless fight with the presence there biggest enemy
Lucifer as dan watters has already stated is a fractional being he is the concept of dark and as such has many faces, avatars, viewpoints, and or perspectives i do not see the issue of him being geb an i dont see where ppl come off saying there is no evidence. I think there is plenty as shown above an the fact they come from the same verse. His new series is officially canon to the sandman an retcons the old. Now the biggest issue is there is no reference to swamp thing issue 50 but i dont see that as being a major problem as shown above so i think at the very least he needs a new key with the note of possibility if this seriously isnt enough

 

[Sandman31]

The scan you posted really doesn't say anything either way about whether or not Sandalphon backstabbed Michael or not.



The scan doesn't say that Michael got weak or disappeared. It doesn't even reference or show Michael, unless that emaciated and attacked angel at the bottom panel is supposed to be him, which contradicts the "disappearing" part of the argument you made, and provides plenty explanation for the "weak" part.

We should be reading "inconsistencies" into stories when there aren't any.

Michael was the one speaking there, so yes he was indeed shown in that scan, and is getting weaker and disappearing alongside the other angels. Also, have you even read it yet? Michael is there, hes the guy with the spear, and as I said, he was the one explaining how theyre going to dissapear because God dissapeared

The scan you posted really doesn't say anything either way about whether or not Sandalphon backstabbed Michael or not.

Just the fact that he's there and not chained up in Sandalphon's prison is evidence enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we are going in circles here. Deagonx has repeatedly explained why a The Presence/The Source > Perpetua > Hecate = The Upside-Down Man > The Great Evil Beast = The Presence scaling sequence does not make any sense, and applying an extra key to TUDM scaled from The Great Evil Beast at its peak does not make sense either, so I think that we should either give TGEB a post-retcon extra key scaled from TUDM, or strictly focus on Hecate's and TUDM's own personal feats for their scaling.

So, would this be an acceptable solution?

 

[Sandman31]

Seems reasonable.

(Sorry. Not that much familiar with JLD)

 

[Y3kthunder]

I agree

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I would appreciate if everybody here please use that as a template to work from then, so we can find some workable solutions here.

 

[Xearsay]

Well, we are going in circles here. Deagonx has repeatedly explained why a The Presence/The Source > Perpetua > Hecate = The Upside-Down Man > The Great Evil Beast = The Presence scaling sequence does not make any sense, and applying an extra key to TUDM scaled from The Great Evil Beast at its peak does not make sense either, so I think that we should either give TGEB a post-retcon extra key scaled from TUDM, or strictly focus on Hecate's and TUDM's own personal feats for their scaling.

Deagonx also argued against the GEB being = to the Presence in the same thread. Which contradicts his own point about the UDM scaling.

 

[Deagonx]

Deagonx also argued against the GEB being = to the Presence in the same thread.

No, I did not. I said it's not a certainty.

 

[Xearsay]

No, I did not. I said it's not a certainty.

Great. Then you can’t confirm scaling to the GEB would be beyond The Presence. Meaning your entire argument literally falls a part.

 

[Deagonx]

Then you can’t confirm scaling to the GEB would be beyond The Presence

Which also means scaling to the GEB does not mean anything in particular, since his power level is so poorly defined.

 

[Xearsay]

Which also means scaling to the GEB does not mean anything in particular, since his power level is so poorly defined.

LoL so then there’s no problem with it? Perfect. Thanks for admitting that.

 

[Deagonx]

so then there’s no problem with it?

You've misunderstood my argument. Scaling to the GEB would not necessarily upgrade UDM. If he is equal to the Presence, the scaling breaks the cosmology. If he isn't, the scaling is pointless either way since it's not an indication of power. Do you understand now?

 

[Xearsay]

You've misunderstood my argument. Scaling to the GEB would not necessarily upgrade UDM. If he is equal to the Presence, the scaling breaks the cosmology. If he isn't, the scaling is pointless either way since it's not an indication of power. Do you understand now?

That was never a reason for upgrading him in my post anyway lol. It was just to connect the two characters within their profiles. Thanks for helping though

 

[Deagonx]

It was just to connect the two characters within their profiles

The issues with connecting the characters in their profile is not related to the scaling.

 

[Xearsay]

The issues with connecting the characters in their profile is not related to the scaling.

It’s the related to the post I made. Which is also the thing you’re under typing in.

 

[Deagonx]

It’s the related to the post I made

I'm aware. The issues of why scaling UDM to GEB and the issues with connecting the profiles are separate. The scaling issues aren't the reason why their profiles shouldn't be connected.

 

[Malomtek]

Michael was the one speaking there, so yes he was indeed shown in that scan, and is getting weaker and disappearing alongside the other angels. Also, have you even read it yet? Michael is there, hes the guy with the spear, and as I said, he was the one explaining how theyre going to dissapear because God dissapeared

The scan you posted really doesn't say anything either way about whether or not Sandalphon backstabbed Michael or not.

Just the fact that he's there and not chained up in Sandalphon's prison is evidence enough.

You seem to be confusing the hooded figure with the armored one (Michael) in reference to who is explaining things, but this could all easily be explained anyway by this being a mere avatar of Michael Demiurgos, this somehow being a completely different "Michael", or this taking place after Holly Black's Lucifer run, and thus the Demiurgic power, status, and responsibility has long been "taken off Michael's hands", so to speak.

 

[Xearsay]

I'm aware. The issues of why scaling UDM to GEB and the issues with connecting the profiles are separate. The scaling issues aren't the reason why their profiles shouldn't be connected.

There is no issue with scaling UDM above the GEB or connecting him to the GEB as you already contradicted your only argument against it. Don’t start backpedaling now.

 

[Deagonx]

There is no issue with scaling UDM above the GEB as you already contradicted your own argument against it

Again, you are misunderstanding my argument. There are two options for scaling.

1) GEB = Presence. If this is the case, scaling UDM to GEB is incoherent.

2) GEB =/= Presence. If this is the case, scaling UDM to GEB does not indicate a specific power level. The entire purpose of scaling is to determine a power level.

Both are problematic. Neither are the core reason why connecting their profiles is problematic. That has more to do with the various ways in which the Otherkind's story is incompatible with American Gothic.

 

[Xearsay]

Again, you are misunderstanding my argument. There are two options for scaling.

1) GEB = Presence. If this is the case, scaling UDM to GEB is incoherent.

2) GEB =/= Presence. If this is the case, scaling UDM to GEB does not indicate a specific power level. The entire purpose of scaling is to determine a power level.

Both are problematic. Neither are the core reason why connecting their profiles is problematic. That has more to do with the various ways in which the Otherkind's story is incompatible with American Gothic.

Im not misunderstanding anything because what you’re saying is wrong. Even without being = to the Presence it still did a clash with him that threatened to destroy all of creation. So scaling above the GEB does indicate a power level.

You never explained once in this thread how the GEB being a sliver of UDM is incompatible with the original story.

 

[Deagonx]

Even without being = to the Presence it still did a clash with him that threatened to destroy all of creation. So scaling above the GEB does indicate a power level.

Where did it say it threatened to destroy "all of creation?" Likewise, what constituted "creation" back during American Gothic was very different than what it constitutes today.

You never explained once in this thread how the GEB being a sliver of UDM is incompatible with the original story.

...yes I have? I don't understand this tactic of argument, pretending I never explained something I explained several times.

 

[Xearsay]

Lol so now you’re trying to get the GEB downgraded. It saids it on the wiki.

No you didn’t. And if you actually did give a reason you should have no hard time giving it again.

 

[Deagonx]

Lol so now you’re trying to get the GEB downgraded

No I am not. Why are you constantly attempting to misrepresent my position?

It saids it

What?

Also Limbo was later shown to exist during this era and the wiki has that at 1-A.

"During this Era" is exceptionally vague, and Alan Moore did not write with Limbo, and you still haven't produced a scan saying it's threatening creation.

Likewise, creation doesn't even necessarily refer to Limbo or anything above the universe/multiverse. It depends entirely on context.

And if you actually did give a reason you should have no hard time giving it again.

The comment explaining it is on this page. I won't repeat myself ad nauseum at your request.

 

[Xearsay]

I’m not misrepresenting anything. You’re literally arguing against the feats presented in it’s profile that justify its rating.

Whether Alan Moore wrote Limbo or not is irrelevant to what existed in the cosmology during this era. However I did not make the justifications for this character so I’m not going to defend it. I’m simply using the ratings the wiki placed. If you have a problem with it go make another thread asking for it to be removed from its profile.

The comment explaining it is on this page. I won't repeat myself ad nauseum at your request.

Lol no it’s not. The only thing you’ve said on this page is “it’s incompatible.” Which doesn’t explain anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Xearsay please stop the ongoing hostile bickering immediately.

Regardless of what Deagonx has said, would my suggestion above be acceptable to you, so we can get anywhere?

 

[Deagonx]

You’re literally arguing against the feats presented in it’s profile that justify its rating.

I haven't argued against any feats.

Whether Alan Moore wrote Limbo or not is irrelevant to what existed in the cosmology during this era

Define era?

If you have a problem with it

I don't.

Lol no it’s not

It's in the comment in which I replied to you, Antvasima, and Matthew. Again, what is the point of pretending I didn't explain my position when I did?

 

[Xearsay]

Xearsay please stop the ongoing hostile bickering immediately.

Regardless of what Deagonx has said, would my suggestion above be acceptable to you, so we can get anywhere?

I think we should scale the character according to both the GEB and their feats. However I don’t understand why it would be considered a retcon because the GEB isn’t rated as = to the Presence. He’s only 1-A. So scaling above the GEB shouldn’t present any inconsistencies.

 

[Deagonx]

he GEB isn’t rated as = to the Presence. He’s only 1-A

The Presence

The Presence is the representation of the Judeo-Christian God in the DC Multiverse and the father of both Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. Although his power is virtually unparalleled, he rarely interferes in the affairs of mortals directly, instead acting through agents and aspects of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence is 1-A

 

[Xearsay]

The Presence

The Presence is the representation of the Judeo-Christian God in the DC Multiverse and the father of both Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. Although his power is virtually unparalleled, he rarely interferes in the affairs of mortals directly, instead acting through agents and aspects of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence is 1-A

I’m talking about the high 1-A version. Not the representation.

 

[Antvasima]

I think we should scale the character according to both the GEB and their feats. However I don’t understand why it would be considered a retcon because the GEB isn’t rated as = to the Presence. He’s only 1-A. So scaling above the GEB shouldn’t present any inconsistencies.

Well, it seems like I misremembered our current scaling then.

So what solution do our more knowledgeable members think that we should use here then?

 

[Sandman31]

You seem to be confusing the hooded figure with the armored one (Michael) in reference to who is explaining things, but this could all easily be explained anyway by this being a mere avatar of Michael Demiurgos, this somehow being a completely different "Michael", or this taking place after Holly Black's Lucifer run, and thus the Demiurgic power, status, and responsibility has long been "taken off Michael's hands", so to speak.

I'm referring to the original scan that I posted. Where you said that Michael was not shown or mentioned. Michael was the one speaking there so you're wrong. I'm not confusing anything, you're the one who's confused here.

None of what you said have proofs and are merely theories, "what ifs" argument are nothing when it's backed by nothing. If it's "easily explained" then drop the scans proving it. Because nowhere in the series was it implied that Michael was an "avatar" or anything of that sort.

Also, if you have read the comics then it's obvious that it's meant to take place after Sandman and not after the other Lucifer series. Luxs was just starting, the Presence is still the God that is the foundation of Creation etc
Plus the writer himself said that it take place before the other a Lucifers solo.

 

[Amakasu]

I'm referring to the original scan that I posted. Where you said that Michael was not shown or mentioned. Michael was the one speaking there so you're wrong. I'm not confusing anything, you're the one who's confused here.

None of what you said have proofs and are merely theories, "what ifs" argument are nothing when it's backed by nothing. If it's "easily explained" then drop the scans proving it. Because nowhere in the series was it implied that Michael was an "avatar" or anything of that sort.

Also, if you have read the comics then it's obvious that it's meant to take place after Sandman and not after the other Lucifer series. Luxs was just starting, the Presence is still the God that is the foundation of Creation etc
Plus the writer himself said that it take place before the other a Lucifers solo.

Wait, no. Lucifer 2018 especially the later parts take place after lucifer has created his bar, saved Michael and such.