(GRACE) Garou (OPM) VS Lucario (Pokémon) (2/9/0)

[TauanVictor]

Garou (OPM) VS Lucario (Pokémon)​

• Starting Distance: 5m
• Both in-character
• Equalized speed
• Pre-Awakening Garou | Lucario

LOCATION:

Garou: 2 (@King, @Kachon123)
Lucario: 9 (@Arceus0x, @FinePoint, @Psychomaster35, @GlaceonGamez471, @DemonicDude, @Popted2, @SemiRaedi, @Veloxt1r0kore, @Imaginym)
Inconclusive:

 

[FinePoint]

Lucario: ~3.181 gigatons of TNT
Garou: >>>>837.23 megatons of TNT

Lucario has a <<<<=~3.8x AP advantage.
(~3.1x by wiki scaling standards)

 

[Loyd]

The garou pic is lit like usual

 

[TauanVictor]

Bump.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Lucario: ~3.181 gigatons of TNT
Garou: >>>837.23 megatons of TNT

Lucario has a ~3.8x AP advantage.

Pre awakening Garou scales above baseline actually. But Lucario still has the AP advantage even with that

 

[FinePoint]

Pre awakening Garou scales above baseline actually. But Lucario still has the AP advantage even with that

Based on what?
That was the only calc I could find.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Darkshine upscale to High 7-A from that calc? That basically makes him 1 Gigaton in AP, and Garou upscales from that by an unknown extent

 

[FinePoint]

Darkshine upscale to High 7-A from that calc? That basically makes him 1 Gigaton in AP, and Garou upscales from that by an unknown extent

On what mathematical basis are we assuming he upscales to exactly 1 Gigaton from that calculation?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Darkshine was able to very casually cause the 7-A feat, which is the reasoning he upscales.

I think it's an odd reason for upscaling but whatever I suppose

 

[FinePoint]

Darkshine was able to very casually cause the 7-A feat, which is the reasoning he upscales.

I think it's an odd reason for upscaling but whatever I suppose

In any case, it doesn't change the fact that they massively upscale from that calc, and that energy value.
I will leave my post as it is, but I'll add an extra ">" just in case.

 

[King]

Ok, so like, what are Lucario's prominent abilities and what are his haxes if any?

 

[King]

Ok, so like, what are Lucario's prominent abilities and what are his haxes if any?

Cause, there are so many minor attacks and abilities on his page.

 

[FinePoint]

Ok, so like, what are Lucario's prominent abilities and what are his haxes if any?

When not bloodlusted: Martial Arts, Chi Manipulation/Aura, Precognition, Instinctive Reaction, Attack Reflection

It's basically a super skilled martial artist who empowers its physical attacks with elemental power, and can also used ranged chi attacks.

 

[Waka1979]

Ugh
Following

 

[TauanVictor]

Bump.

 

[TauanVictor]

Bump.

 

[Urshani]

lucario is weak to fighting, would garou's attacks count as that

 

[Imaginym]

lucario is weak to fighting, would garou's attacks count as that

They're Martial Arts, so possibly? Fighting type moves include moves like Close Combat (In Japanese, it's called "Infight"; The English term(?) is spelled out in phonetic Japanese.), Aura Sphere, Vaccuum Wave, the rather confusingly translated Jump Kick & High Jump Kick, Mach Punch, Hammer Arm, Seismic Toss, & a bunch of others.

(Unless what makes something Fighting-type is supposed to be something plate-related, but that's something for a CRT, if anything at all.)

Anyway, Lucario.....

When not bloodlusted: Martial Arts, Chi Manipulation/Aura, Precognition, Instinctive Reaction, Attack Reflection

It's basically a super skilled martial artist who empowers its physical attacks with elemental power, and can also used ranged chi attacks.

Basis for these claims?

Regardless of their accuracy, I feel these Pokedex entries may provide useful information:

X Omega Ruby	By catching the aura emanating from others, it can read their thoughts and movements.
Y Alpha Sapphire	By reading the auras of all things, it can tell how others are feeling from over half a mile away.
Sun	Not only does it perceive auras, but it has also gained the power to control them. It employs them in battle.
Moon	They can detect the species of a living being— and its emotions—from over half a mile away. They control auras and hunt their prey in packs.

Shield	It can tell what people are thinking. Only Trainers who have justice in their hearts can earn this Pokémon’s trust.

By the way, OP, the art does look nice, but you may wish to have in mind that the art depicts Mega Lucario, rather than base Lucario.

 

[FinePoint]

Basis for these claims?

What do you mean? Those abilities are all on the profile.

As for being weak to fighting-type, I'm not sure it extends to regular martial arts.
Pokemon types originate from the plates, and in the anime all the fighting type moves glow with energy.

 

[Imaginym]

What do you mean? Those abilities are all on the profile.

My mistake. I posted them mostly to help give context on what Lucario's behaviour in combat might be.

As for being weak to fighting-type, I'm not sure it extends to regular martial arts.
Pokemon types originate from the plates, and in the anime all the fighting type moves glow with energy.

 

[Arceus0x]

I was called to help here... But considering in who called me idk who to help.

Anyways I'mma try to assess both

 

[Arceus0x]

Let's see what are the advantages

Garou:
-skill
-resilience/stamina (extremely hard to put down)
-pressure point strikes (idk if it actually works on lucario but whatever)
-possible fighting advantage

Lucario:
-a ~3.1x ap advantage
-better senses (could sense people's aura from miles away even as a riolu, could fight many pokemon with closed eyes)
-precognition (can use detect which preditcs attacks before they even happen)
-statistic reduction techniques (such as metal sound which nerfs defenses)
-statistic improving techniques (nasty plot buffs special attack, power up punch boosts attack ect.)
-ranged attacks (100s of meters and kilometers with some other ones such as dragon pulse)

Overall: i sorta feel like both have a chance but Lucario just has far more to offer. Garou doesn't go with many pressure point strikes in this key. He uses them but doesn't lead with it. Lucario would lead with aura spheres and would use power up punches up close which would boost his offense.
His stat reduction techniques ain't half bad either nerfing the opponent nearly 2x in a single go if i remember correctly. Lucario should be at least somewhat close to machamp (as he can keep up in close combat) who knows countless martial art techniques so keeping up with Garou shouldn't be much of a problem.
There's also the fact that he can boost himself using different abilities.

Consensus: Garou's best chance is tanking attacks and maybe at one point consider using pressure point strikes. Why won't it work? Because Lucario is a small jackal thing that can predict attacks and can use op speed buffs.
Lucario wins if not stomps

 

[Arceus0x]

Also yeah Lucario wouldn't take 2x damage from regular martial arts. You need a specific type of energy to abuse their weakness.
Here's an example. The move wood hammer is often shown as a smack down and the z-move malicious moonsault is a wrestling move, yet the former is grass type and the latter is dark type. Lucario takes 2x less damage from them.
So yeah, fighting with martial arts would not help

 

[TauanVictor]

Garou also has an advantage in LS and can evolve during the fight.

 

[King]

Ok, so I am going to make an argument for Garou here. Firstly, we have to admit the AP gap but that is kind of nullified by WSRSF. Most of Lucario's attacks are simple physical attacks which can be parried and blocked by Garou. Lucario's status reduction attacks can be countered by Reactive Evolution, Statistics Amplification and Rage Power. All these boosts working in tandem can easily level the playing field. Plus, Garou will also be reading and analyzing Lucario's attacks constantly and would not be taken aback by any attack the second time. Another thing to worry might be Lucario's aura attacks but Garou has tanked worse.

Garou's higher lifting strength might also be an advantage if they end up in a deadlock like with Bang vs Garou.

Overall, Garou has multiple win conditions via evolution, skill advantage, Lifting strength advantage, greater resistance and statistics amplification via Awakening Breath and Abandonment. Oh, another thing. Garou also has regeneration to make him survive long enough to overcome or match Lucario in AP. Lucario has a disadvantage if the fight goes on for long as Garou has higher stamina.
Higher AP and speed are not everything when your opponent outclasses in almost every other category.
Voting Garou for now.

 

[TauanVictor]

Lucario wins if not stomps

Voting Lucario so?

 

[Arceus0x]

Voting Lucario so?

If not a stomp, yeah

 

[Arceus0x]

Ok, so I am going to make an argument for Garou here. Firstly, we have to admit the AP gap but that is kind of nullified by WSRSF. Most of Lucario's attacks are simple physical attacks which can be parried and blocked by Garou. Lucario's status reduction attacks can be countered by Reactive Evolution, Statistics Amplification and Rage Power. All these boosts working in tandem can easily level the playing field. Plus, Garou will also be reading and analyzing Lucario's attacks constantly and would not be taken aback by any attack the second time. Another thing to worry might be Lucario's aura attacks but Garou has tanked worse.

Garou's higher lifting strength might also be an advantage if they end up in a deadlock like with Bang vs Garou.

Overall, Garou has multiple win conditions via evolution, skill advantage, Lifting strength advantage, greater resistance and statistics amplification via Awakening Breath and Abandonment. Oh, another thing. Garou also has regeneration to make him survive long enough to overcome or match Lucario in AP. Lucario has a disadvantage if the fight goes on for long as Garou has higher stamina.
Higher AP and speed are not everything when your opponent outclasses in almost every other category.
Voting Garou for now.

His reactive evolution isn't instant and generally the longer the fight will get the more Lucario will power up as well. His aura grows the more damaged he is and he will use tons of moves which boost his attack.
Let me remind you that one move such as power up punch will already double Lucario's attack and he can do it many times. Reactive evo may match the statistic reduction but Lucario still has an even better powerup. I mean what can Garou do when Lucario can just make a plot in his head and suddenly his aura spheres become 2x stronger.

 

[King]

His reactive evolution isn't instant and generally the longer the fight will get the more Lucario will power up as well. His aura grows the more damaged he is and he will use tons of moves which boost his attack.
Let me remind you that one move such as power up punch will already double Lucario's attack and he can do it many times. Reactive evo may match the statistic reduction but Lucario still has an even better powerup. I mean what can Garou do when Lucario can just make a plot in his head and suddenly his aura spheres become 2x stronger.

Garou can also boost himself via Awakening Breath and Abandonment. Plus, you're kinda wrong. Garou's evolution is instant if he pushes himself. Darkshine blatantly states that Garou is getting stronger with each passing moment. Plus, Lucario's lifting strength pales in comparison to Garou's class G LS.

What will Lucario do when that 2x sphere gets deflected back at him with 2x the power via Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist?

 

[King]

Garou can also boost himself via Awakening Breath and Abandonment. Plus, you're kinda wrong. Garou's evolution is instant if he pushes himself. Darkshine blatantly states that Garou is getting stronger with each passing moment. Plus, Lucario's lifting strength pales in comparison to Garou's class G LS.

What will Lucario do when that 2x sphere gets deflected back at him with 2x the power via Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist?

Reminder that WSRSF can even deflect attacks of pure energy.

 

[Arceus0x]

Garou can also boost himself via Awakening Breath and Abandonment. Plus, you're kinda wrong. Garou's evolution is instant if he pushes himself. Darkshine blatantly states that Garou is getting stronger with each passing moment. Plus, Lucario's lifting strength pales in comparison to Garou's class G LS.

What will Lucario do when that 2x sphere gets deflected back at him with 2x the power via Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist?

Dodge it and get into close combat. Land a powerup punch, get a 2x boost and beat the hell out of Garou.
At best I'd say that Garou's evolution could somewhat keep up Lucario's buffs, don't forget, Lucario is buffing himelf 2x 3.1 gt in one sit and then another 2x 3.1 gt and then again and again. Garou has not shown those levels of growth and only managed to stomp Darkshine who's around 1gt. Yes he's growing but he ain't gonna get to those extents of power... Not yet at least.
Also deflecting attacks of pure energy ain't crap when he gets shot by beams that are far stronger than he is.

Lucario is stronger, has better buffs, has better senses and could slow down the evolution with debuffs.
Garou can overpower him in LS, yes, except Lucario could easily evade a situation like that with precog and has ways to break out of situations like that, similarily to how, as a Riolu he broke out of Grappoloct's unshakable grip using force palm which instantly projects energy and such through his palms.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also Lucario can boost himself 4x his normal speed which means he'd be in speedblits level. Lucario can also heal itself. It can also counter moves, reflecting the attack 2x the power it was back at the opponent.

 

[King]

Dodge it and get into close combat. Land a powerup punch, get a 2x boost and beat the hell out of Garou.
At best I'd say that Garou's evolution could somewhat keep up Lucario's buffs, don't forget, Lucario is buffing himelf 2x 3.1 gt in one sit and then another 2x 3.1 gt and then again and again. Garou has not shown those levels of growth and only managed to stomp Darkshine who's around 1gt. Yes he's growing but he ain't gonna get to those extents of power... Not yet at least.
Also deflecting attacks of pure energy ain't crap when he gets shot by beams that are far stronger than he is.

Lucario is stronger, has better buffs, has better senses and could slow down the evolution with debuffs.
Garou can overpower him in LS, yes, except Lucario could easily evade a situation like that with precog and has ways to break out of situations like that, similarily to how, as a Riolu he broke out of Grappoloct's unshakable grip using force palm which instantly projects energy and such through his palms.

Dodge it, get close to Garou and get Cross Fang Dragon Slayer Fisted. He doesn't keep boosting himself when Garou can easily deflect all of Lucario's punches back at him. It's not an infinite chain and Lucario will certainly get hurt by his own blows. Come on, not that fast? The guy went from Low 7B to High 7A in less than a week.....

Garou has tanked attacks stronger than him multiple times.Tanked rover's blasts, orochi's blasts, survived getting one shotted by Darkshine.

Not by a one shot margin. Garou has effectively evaded and parried attacks that might one shot him quite a lot of times. Lucario's mere gap of 3x doesn't mean a lot when Garou's jumping power levels. Garou's Evolution only grows stronger when put under pressure. So, Lucario's debuffs might actually work against him. Garou also has precog to match Lucario. Garou's body can also move on its own in order to avoid Lucario's attacks. Garou's precog along with discount Ultra Instinct should be enough to overcome Lucario's precog easily. Aura sensiong also ain't gonna do much when your opponent is literally in front of you.

Not to mention, Garou can also adapt to Lucario's fighting styles and develop countermeasures or at worst even mimic them entirely.
Apart from reactive Evolution, I didn't even mention monsterization. That could also provide a tide turning boost.

Garou can deal with Lucario's speed boosts by his sensory amps by using Abandonment.

Garou's buffing mechanisms are so ridiculous I sometimes myself forget how many types of buffs he keeps on getting...

 

[Arceus0x]

Second of all no proof of him being capable of overcoming Lucario's 4x difference before Lucario takes him out. You keep saying that he would surpass him because he went from low 7-B to High 7-A in weeks, and though that is true, it doesn't prove that Garou would evolve high enough Yes he's strong and has good instincts and reactions but all Lucario needs to do is punch him a bunch to win. Also yes, he could hurt Lucario with reflection. The problem being the fact that Lucario can predict it even better.

Lucario can literally read minds of people to determine their next attack and can use detect which does the same. Garou only has visual prediction and analytical prediction.
Also Lucario has laser focus which will let it land critical hits which often ignore stat buffs.
Also about mind reader, it looks into the opponent's mind, reading their movements, and locks on to them. Lucario's next attack will not miss, even if the opponent gets out of range and that is the actual function of the attack.
There's also reversal which deals extra damage based on Lucario's health.

Besides that Lucario can buff his defenses, speed (4x which is near speedblitz) and so on and so forth.

Garou is a tough opponent, yes, however Lucario has far better senses, the only thing lacking being instinctive reaction. Garou's instincts don't always kick in, he has a limit, especially if the opponent is continuously raising speed and defenses while landing critical hits/always landing hits via abilities.

 

[Arceus0x]

anyways i need a break i'll reply to anything tommorow.

 

[FinePoint]

winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.

Just throwing this out there from the Versus Thread Rules since it seems to be an argument.

Edit: Nvm, Lucario is faster normally. I was looking at the wrong key. I'll vote Lucario FRA then.

 

[TauanVictor]

Is the speed not equalized? Why are you taking speed into account?

 

[FinePoint]

Is the speed not equalized? Why are you taking speed into account?

Lucario has speed amps.

 

[Kachon123]

Voting Garou via superior skill, reactive evolution, analytical prediction, copying, extreme pain tolerance, regen, redirection, higher LS, and much more.

 

[King]

Second of all no proof of him being capable of overcoming Lucario's 4x difference before Lucario takes him out. You keep saying that he would surpass him because he went from low 7-B to High 7-A in weeks, and though that is true, it doesn't prove that Garou would evolve high enough Yes he's strong and has good instincts and reactions but all Lucario needs to do is punch him a bunch to win. Also yes, he could hurt Lucario with reflection. The problem being the fact that Lucario can predict it even better.

Lucario can literally read minds of people to determine their next attack and can use detect which does the same. Garou only has visual prediction and analytical prediction.
Also Lucario has laser focus which will let it land critical hits which often ignore stat buffs.
Also about mind reader, it looks into the opponent's mind, reading their movements, and locks on to them. Lucario's next attack will not miss, even if the opponent gets out of range and that is the actual function of the attack.
There's also reversal which deals extra damage based on Lucario's health.

Besides that Lucario can buff his defenses, speed (4x which is near speedblitz) and so on and so forth.

Garou is a tough opponent, yes, however Lucario has far better senses, the only thing lacking being instinctive reaction. Garou's instincts don't always kick in, he has a limit, especially if the opponent is continuously raising speed and defenses while landing critical hits/always landing hits via abilities.

You asked for proof, then proof it is then. Garou was one shotted almost twice by Darky but was able to match him with his own punches a few minutes later. He was later able to deflect his punches with a mere thumb!
Mind reader only works for a single turn and Garou is smart enough to make use of that small gap before the next turn. Garou also has regeneration to keep up if he gets barraged. (Plus, I never saw him using it in the movie)
Lucario's defense buffs will not work as Garou has Durability Negation.

Garou can also prevent a speed blitz by sharpening his sense via Abandonment. I had a really hard argument last time with some other person on a battle where we were arguing for sensing boost vs speed boost. So, it's kind of difficult to quantify and I think Garou might be able to level the playing field.

Instinctive reaction might work a number of times. Has Lucario shown feats capable of withstanding attacks twice its durability? Would like to confirm.
Let's say the worst happens and Garou almost dies, then Lucario is done for. The boost would be enough to outright stomp Lucario.
To be honest Garou is a bad matchup for Garou cause Lucario is like ladder with increasing number of steps and Garou can just keep climbing them them and the gap in power is just perfect for Garou to keep growing stronger and not get one shotted.