Re Zero Skill Evaluation

[Expectro2000xxx]

Haven't honestly read the blog (and I'm kinda lazy tbh to do now) but saw the part about "normal teenagers" doing stuff that normal teenagers can't logically do, so I would like to point how in those situations what the wiki normally do is take over what actually happened (the feats) over the statements as it's the only thing that would make sense and the existence of unreleable statements is something common, specially since those types of statements tend to express what the author believe is the power of the characters and due to a lack of scientifical knowledge (like the one the wiki have) they almost always underestimate them, on top of the fact that death of the author is an actual concept used in the wiki when the author blatantly contradicts what a series show. So in those situations if a "normal teenager" (or going further, "normal adult", "normal kid", etc) have feats far above that they just get scaled to them (if desired I could even give some practical examples).

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ram with horn is considered as one of the strongest within the verse, stronger than even regulus and the witches. There is also a theory that Rem is not originally supposed to be born, Pandora (or at least someone else who knows her power) used their power in order for it to happen so her power will be split in half or at least reduce to some extent... She may have lost her horn thus making her powerless but that doesn't mean her Monstrous Instinctive Action was taken away as well.

Her case is kinda similar to Boji from ranking of kings, kinda. Also I don't fvcking like how you keep using the word "It's impossible" you literally have characters in BC manipulating the fate, time, ******* with concepts, rules and nothingness itself and dodging and tanking an attack that is 20x stronger (and faster) than their shit. FTL alone is impossible by nature. The word "Impossibility" hold no meaning within a fiction. So cope. Tho not saying it's exactly 130x difference but it's definitely up there just don't know the exact number.

This is just disingenuous,

you are using supernatural abilities in fiction to dismiss the fact that you are literally creating a massive contradiction with something non-supernatural. Ram isn’t using Fate Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, or even Speed Amplification. She is just using good old fashion movement speed to dodge many attacks each of which are 130x faster. That’s something she literally can’t do without downscaling in some way.

She was born supernaturally, suggesting her human form is definitely superior to other average humans in the series. So it makes sense for her to downscale.

Ask any Staff member, they won’t agree with this proposal. Heck @Celestial_Pegasus doesn't even want to agree to it. Maybe he doesn’t want to disagree cuz he still wants to use the feat in some way and I get that.

 

[Greatsage13th]

She was born supernaturally, suggesting her human form is definitely superior to other average humans in the series. So it makes sense for her to downscale.

Proof of so? Because it mostly sounds like an assumption

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Seems we are still going down this rabbit hole...

I would note that Ram in this Garfiel fight was stated to have no mana, meanwhile Ram in ac 6 who was getting mana from Emilia and Beatrice, didn't quite have mana like she normally would from Roswaal, which is why she was sick, that same Ram who is weaker than usual, later gets choked out by Subaru, mortally wounded by Anastasia, and skull shattered by Patrasche, may have misremembered some things there, but point being we have seen what a low on mana Ram looks like, in the Garfiel encounter she had none.

Edit: If memory serves me right, Ram got sneak attacked, so by then it was already too late, and was sick for days, so idk if it's an accurate comparison, since vs Garfiel she had Roswaal's mana which is the best, doesn't make her sick, and then ran out of it in battle.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Proof of so? Because it mostly sounds like an assumption

It’s a better assumption than what you’re suggesting.

Look I’m moving on from this topic. Im confident that no staff will agree to it cuz I’ve asked too many on them on discord. You didn’t even respond to my counter argument earlier and you’re still supporting this contradiction demotivates me even further to continue.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It’s a better assumption than what you’re suggesting.

Unlike yours, there is a bit of showing of actual proof.

Look I’m moving on from this topic. Im confident that no staff will agree to it cuz I’ve asked too many on them on discord. You didn’t even respond to my counter argument earlier and you’re still supporting this contradiction demotivates me even further to continue.

Then feel free to disagree to something that is thoroughly accepted.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Unlike yours, there is a bit of showing of actual proof.

Where’s the proof that Ram is 130x slower in the scan?

@Celestial_Pegasus said he had no idea when he proposed it so obviously what’s “thoroughly accepted” isn’t the multiplier

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Guys please....

 

[Zabazab]

Ram blah blah skill blah blah mana blah blah.

Anyways, does anyone agree/disagree with removing the Fear Manipulation that warriors have have and replacing it with Aura (Fear Inducing)?

Fear-inducing - Aura affecting an enemy's emotions, make them feel insecurity and fear. Generally has a negative impact on the target's fighting ability, and at high levels (in the absence of resilience), can cause hallucinations and induces insanity.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I would say people like Garfiel have displayed the overwhelming type of aura, and that people like Cecilius in addition show the fear inducing type.

Dressed in a kimono and leisurely readied, the conduct of the young man, Cecilus, had not changed from how it was before. Only, if there was one point that was different, it was that the hilt of his blade was in his hand.

――With just that, Cecilus Segmunt dominated the atmosphere of the entire fortress.

Madelyn: [――Hk.]

As the swordsman walked forward, Madelyn widened her eyes.

Even more than the thorns which directly threatened her life, even more than Goz who disgraced the dragonkin’s pride, Madelyn’s eyes were captivated by the figure of Cecilus, who was merely walking at leisure, and she became unable to move.

Then, Kafma also noticed the fear spreading in his thorns, and it was the same for the flock of flying dragons, who had ceased their roars and had reclined their wings.

For the young hero of the Insect Cage Tribe, for the survivor of the dragonkin, for the ferocious rulers of the sky, all of them protected themselves before the natural disaster, and they could do nothing but pray for their lives to be saved. ――In that case, Cecilus was the natural disaster itself.-Sword Identity

This here isn't just the warriors who are afraid of Cecilius, even the dragons around were afraid, along with Kafma's bugs.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Guys please....

Im trying here

 

[Zabazab]

Yeah I pretty much completely agree on the two aura types stuff.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ram blah blah skill blah blah mana blah blah.

Anyways, does anyone agree/disagree with removing the Fear Manipulation that warriors have have and replacing it with Aura (Fear Inducing)?

Agreed

However do check if there are actual Fear Manipulation feats.

 

[Zabazab]

The biggest example of fear hax in RZ is definitely Sirius' Authority ofc, I can't recall any supernatural causes of fear on that level aside from Witches, and maybe Reid since just him showing up made Shaula pass out- but that might be more to do with Shaula's personal knowledge of Reid.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Agreed

However do check if there are actual Fear Manipulation feats.

Honestly, the fear page says "It should be noted simply terrorizing the opponent either by authority, strength or demeanour only would qualify as Social Influencing, as Fear Manipulation would allow the user to inflict fear regardless of these factors."

Cecilius standing there menacingly (lol), could count as demeanor, what caused all that fear was him holding the hilt of his sword. So social influencing might work better as suggested before.

The quote in the blog mentions Cecilius's aura of swordsmanship causing fear, which is pretty much the same thing happening here, so i think we could indeed scale social influencing among swordsmen of his caliber, as odd as that sounds. Wilhelm's feat is the same thing too.

Though Cecilius did cause fear to the drragons and bugs, so idk, maybe it is fear aura?

 

[Zabazab]

The Fiend and Dream Swords both emit cruelty and bloodlust themselves even when totally sheathed too.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cecilius swords are indeed enchanted blades which emit cruelty and bloodlust

“So you collect blades. I see; that makes sense…,” Julius said, nodding, as his gaze wandered to the two swords at Cecils’s hip. One was in a red scabbard, the other in blue, and he had wondered about them from the moment the men had been reunited in the merchant quarter. It was in no small part because both the blades seemed to radiate an immense cruelty and bloodlust that could still be detected even when they were completely sheathed. This staggering sense of power was proof that these were enchanted or holy blades, nothing ordinary or average.
“The most exceptional pieces in my collection are my number one sword, Murasame, and my number two sword, Masayume. I never had a chance to show them to you back in the empire, but both are enchanted blades with long and storied histories.”
“A hobby that has some practical benefit, I see. That’s very informative.”
“Yes, but acquiring them takes a great deal of money, to say nothing of maintaining them. Not that I’ve ever begrudged it.” As the overpowering aura of the swords threatened to swallow up their owner, Cecils used his own fighter’s spirit to suppress the force emanating from the two weapons. To wield such impressive tools demanded an equally impressive owner.-Ex Novel 4, The Silver Flower Dance of the Sword Saint and Blue Lightning

So you could say the swords are special, and when he holds it in the quotes i posted before, it's the sword causing fear, but we also see him use his own fighting spirit to suppress them, and it's that same fighting spirit he used to cause Goz and others fear

Goz: [The head of a Kingdom knight, hm? That certainly can’t be your true intention.]

Cecilus: [Indeed. Even if I behead Julius-san, Balleroy-san probably wouldn’t be especially happy. ――Though, it would probably a different story if it was the head of the『Sword Saint』-dono.]

That instant, Arakiya, Goz, and Kafma all reflexively stiffened their bodies in response to the alarm bells going off from their instincts.

The source was Cecilus, who gazed into the empty sky, and the clear aura of swordsmanship overflowing from his entire body.

Vollachia’s strongest swordsman pictured somebody within the empty sky, and the remaining waves of the aura of his swordsmanship directed towards them――Sword Identity

And i already showed his aura working on beings which we wouldn't assume can sense auras, bugs and dragons, so i am leaning on it being fear aura

Edit: The Wilhelm fear feat however i think should be social influencing

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Its definitely fear aura

 

[Zabazab]

A bit more info that further clarifies the relationship between skill, talent, and training.

Q: If Theresia had trained with the sword would she have gotten even stronger? Or had she reached the upper limit of strength the moment the Blessing of the Sword Saint was bestowed?

A: In terms of sword skill, that's the upper limit of strength. However, the more one battles, the more one gains the thing called experience, so I think the "Ability to Respond" could be gained and change her actual strength. In a fight between the truly strong, that's what becomes the bottleneck. Reinhard is a separate matter however.

Q: If Julius had the Blessing of the Sword Saint, how would that turn out?

A: Nothing would come of it. "Blessing of the Sword Saint" simply draws out your skill with the sword. If your skill could go up to 1000, then in a moment, your skill is 1000. If your skill could go up to 10, then in a moment, your skill is 10, that's all. Julius has, under his own power, reached the limit of his skill in the sword, so he wouldn't become any stronger than he is now.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This is good, basically saying in a fight between the strong, what ultimately matters is experience, not skill, the Cecilus statement adds on to this

Q: If Thearesia fought with Cecilus, who would win?

A: That's a very delicate question, isn't it. Thearesia has no experience with fighting with an equal and being pressured, so I think Thearesia would lose due to the difference in experience.-Thearesia's birthday 2018, Q&A

Cecilus is equal to Theresia, but has more experience, so he wins, not cause he is more skilled, both are as skilled.

 

[Epiccheev]

A bit more info that further clarifies the relationship between skill, talent, and training.

Inb4 Reinhard gets a statement about having infinite potential and gains infinite sword skill.

 

[Zabazab]

Nah, Reid outclasses Reinhard's skill level.

But if they both fought wielding just chopsticks, Reinhard would win.

 

[Epiccheev]

War God Blessing too stronk

So, for the evaluation.
1.Extrasensory perception:
They all look fine. Most characters can seemingly sense bloodlust and have your run of the mill, sense attacks from behind type ESP, with Thearesia having the best showing of skill based sensing (detected an attack from behind described as soundless done by an experienced swordsman.) and Old Wilhelm having the best showings of 6th sense based sensing in terms of versatility (can smell danger(death)/sense bloodlust/sense aura in general.)
Cecilus's example seems more like a limited resistance to ESP ( can hide his bloodlust from ESP users.)

2.Aura
Agreed with Social influencing through Aura for Wilhelm and fear manip for Cecilus, rest looks fine.

3.Movement skills
Elsa's example is similar to the classic skill of dodging attacks with minimal movement, seems more like a movement precision skill feat than something that could be indexed directly under an ability other than Intelligence.

Ram's example is an example of damage reduction, and can be listed as such.
The Garfiel dodge example is a skill feat, but i do agree the 130x multiplier is bonkers in this case, since even if her movements have zero delay the movement range her body could achieve would be entirely insufficient to dodge unless we assume Garfiel was only aiming to graze her in a way that could be dodged with absolutely minimal movement. i'd list it as (fought a much faster opponent in a depowered state) type deal to avoid suspension of disbelief

Garfiel deflecting the blows seems like Attack reflection through skill.

4.Stealth Mastery
All examples seem good. Since Cecilus apparently does this actively i think Stealth mastery is more accurate rather than adding it to his resistance to ESP i adressed in the first paragraph.

5.Information Analysis.
All examples seem good, but the seeing white lines that lead to defeat is a very unusual example, i'd say it reminds me of Tanjiro's "Opening thread" that lets him trace a killing blow for Demons, but it's said by the author to be a visual representation of his smell based precog, so i will shrug. In this case, my interpretation of Willhelm's feat is that the white lines are manifestation of openings that can lead a fight to an end, and while they did work on Willhelm, he was consciously fixing these openings at such a pace that there wasn't enough room to exploit the lines, thus resulting in them being severed before they could be followed through. Wich would be pure skill.

6,Accelerated development
Most examples seem fine to me, but Elsa's seem more like an intelligence feat (you won't catch me with the same attack twice type deal.)

7.Precog/analytical prediction
The part with Elsa seems more like skill/battle IQ rather than precog, such as being able to recognize movement patterns in an opponents fighting style, it could be said to be information analytical prediction based on patterns/habits. Garfiel can get resistance to that.
Other examples are also information analysis imo, with Theresia's seeming like clear cut precog. Peak willhelm seeing flaws in fighting styles seems more like info analysis to me tbh.

8.Instinctive actions.
Most Examples are fine, but Willhelm dodging the unseen hands seems like skill/precog as said above.

9.Danmaku,
Most seem like more backing feats for their information analysis. Elsa's would give her a bit more insight on her acrobatics.

10.Perception manip
Perfectly fine.

11.Precision.
Nice skill feats. not sure if they warrant anything other than intelligence.

12.Power mimicry
Perfectly fine.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Perfect.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Epiccheev
Elsa's example is similar to the classic skill of dodging attacks with minimal movement, seems more like a movement precision skill feat than something that could be indexed directly under an ability other than Intelligence.

Where would we mention that Elsa can do this if not in the intelligence section?


Ram's example is an example of damage reduction, and can be listed as such.

Didn't even think of that cool


Garfiel deflecting the blows seems like Attack reflection through skill.

Also didn't think of that


All examples seem good, but the seeing white lines that lead to defeat is a very unusual example, i'd say it reminds me of Tanjiro's "Opening thread" that lets him trace a killing blow for Demons, but it's said by the author to be a visual representation of his smell based precog, so i will shrug. In this case, my interpretation of Willhelm's feat is that the white lines are manifestation of openings that can lead a fight to an end, and while they did work on Willhelm, he was consciously fixing these openings at such a pace that there wasn't enough room to exploit the lines, thus resulting in them being severed before they could be followed through. Wich would be pure skill.

A valid interpretation, in the precog section i mentioned Theresia seeing openings in her brother's fighting style, but anyway would you say the white lines are info analysis, and if Wilhelm can fix those openings, getting around it, how would we list that?

Accelerated development
The rate at which she does is accelerated i think, to go from, seeing a few of Beatrice's mana arow once, to Beatrice using countless amounts of it later, and it not working.

Precog/analytical prediction

Interesting, so you think the resistance to analytical prediction is still valid.

Other examples are also information analysis imo, with Theresia's seeming like clear cut precog. Peak willhelm seeing flaws in fighting styles seems more like info analysis to me tbh.

Info analysis or analytical prediction? Like Old Wilhelm anticipating Geuse attacks based on stuff like gaze, hostility etc seems like analytical prediction to me.

Most seem like more backing feats for their information analysis. Elsa's would give her a bit more insight on her acrobatics.

Also very interesting, never thought of that.

 

[Zabazab]

Sword Saints can also see a person's potential.

Q: If there's an episode with Heinkel, I'd like you have you tell us about it.

A: When Heinkel was insisting that he would be the next "Sword Saint", and inherit the famed sword "Astrea" that Wilhelm held, Thearesia would gently tell him "There's no need to be in such a hurry.", as she could see his skill with the sword. -Theresia Birthday q&a 2018

Q: I'd like you so speak about [Theresia's] feeling when Reinhard was born!

A: She was joyful like normal, but at the same time she could tell at a glance that "A child that could destroy the world has been born", so she prayed that "Please, let this child have healthy, peaceful days.". Two years later, her son's bride became unable to wake from sleep. - Theresia Birthday q&a 2018

Also Wilhelm in his prime radiated "Swordsmanship" just like Cecilus.

He wore a dark brown, soiled tunic, the color of his visible skin also besmirched in dirt and filth. But before knitting brows to his state, there was something everyone could instinctively sense.

――Emanating from that being, the essence of dread.

――No, the essence of swordsmanship. - Arc 5 Chapter 73 "Theresia van Astrea"

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Zabazab It's stated that she can judge a person's abilities at a glance, so it's not surprising. That said, she looked at Wilhelm's swordsmanship and thought it very lacking, didn't even remark about him having potential to match her or anything, and yet he did.

Wilhelm's growth seems like it came out of nowhere, even Wilhelm thought Theresia was impossible to reach, and yet he did, i guess his love brought out talent that nobody knew was there before, as corny as that sounds, no wonder Tappei calls this Wilhelm, Power of Love.

 

[Zabazab]

The Author does call peak Wilhelm "Power of Love", so that makes sense.

I also agree that Wilhelm was using Analytical precog vs Petelgeuse, since he was anticipating what he was actually going to do, not just analyzing things about him.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Grimm's feat against the Earth Snake says he predicted it's attacks, so seems more like analytical prediction to me, however the second feat against Carol i could see being info analysis since he perfectly judged her sword’s speed and trajectory, and didn't anticipate/predict it.

 

[Epiccheev]

Where would we mention that Elsa can do this if not in the intelligence section?

Intelligece is best place to mention, yeah.

A valid interpretation, in the precog section i mentioned Theresia seeing openings in her brother's fighting style, but anyway would you say the white lines are info analysis, and if Wilhelm can fix those openings, getting around it, how would we list that?

I'm split between info analysis or making it an offense focused variation of precog. It could be listed as Information analysis and precognition, since the information analysis in detecting openings/weakness in her opponent could be said to be the mechanism behind the precog itself.

For what Willhelm would get, i'm not quite sure. Normally a resistance would require the info analysis to not work at all, as opposed to him countering it by fixing openings after they have been perceived.

Closest thing i can imagine we could use as parameter that i can think of is Kouki's feat in his intelligence section.
He has developed a fighting style that changes every instant[36] and despite been in a world where he was severely weakened, with his skill alone he made Mother unable to react perfectly even with her analysis[56]
He didn't get resistance to precog for this, but got this paragraph in his intelligence section that shows him bypassing precognition by changing his fighting style endlessly after it got predicted. (in Willhelm's case he's constantly fixing these flaws and openings Thearesia would normally exploit almost instantly after her information analysis did it's job.)

The rate at which she does is accelerated i think, to go from, seeing a few of Beatrice's mana arow once, to Beatrice using countless amounts of it later, and it not working.

Not sure, it seems more like intelligence to notice the patterns and avoid them after an attack has been used once than her skill level itself growing to trivialize that type of attack imo.

Info analysis or analytical prediction? Like Old Wilhelm anticipating Geuse attacks based on stuff like gaze, hostility etc seems like analytical prediction to me.

Both. Info analysis for being able to see the flaws/weakness of figthing style and analytical pred for Satella's no.1 simp's invisible hands.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I'm split between info analysis or making it an offense focused variation of precog. It could be listed as Information analysis and precognition, since the information analysis in detecting openings/weakness in her opponent could be said to be the mechanism behind the precog itself.

For what Willhelm would get, i'm not quite sure. Normally a resistance would require the info analysis to not work at all, as opposed to him countering it by fixing openings after they have been perceived.

Closest thing i can imagine we could use as parameter that i can think of is Kouki's feat in his intelligence section.
He has developed a fighting style that changes every instant[36] and despite been in a world where he was severely weakened, with his skill alone he made Mother unable to react perfectly even with her analysis[56]
He didn't get resistance to precog for this, but got this paragraph in his intelligence section that shows him bypassing precognition by changing his fighting style endlessly after it got predicted. (in Willhelm's case he's constantly fixing these flaws and openings Thearesia would normally exploit almost instantly after her information analysis did it's job.)

Information analysis and precognition makes sense, we can also note in Wilhem's intel section that he can counter it.

Not sure, it seems more like intelligence to notice the patterns and avoid them after an attack has been used once than her skill level itself growing to trivialize that type of attack imo.

Fair enough. And i assume Garfiel being able to counter it wouldn't give him accelerated development either

Both. Info analysis for being able to see the flaws/weakness of figthing style and analytical pred for Satella's no.1 simp's invisible hands.

Theresia is the one who sees the flaws, i was more so going for an angle there where Peak Wilhelm resists, but we already resolved that above. It's just further proof of Theresia's info analysis for detecting flaws in fighting syles, and then analytical prediction for Old Wilhelm.

 

[VortechsTG]

I don't want to dwell on the Ram feat for too long either but are we sure Garfield's full tiger form is even supersonic? As far as I can remember he's only ever kept up with supersonic opponents with his half-tiger form. And even Subaru was able to react to his full form. It may just be a huge sacrifice of speed for power.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

And we were just being very productive here

In the WN i can sort of remember his tiger form being called slow, but somebody would have to confirm that, since i read it years ago, LN doesn't mention it being slow from what i can remember, nothing about speed was mentioned.

Anyway i will change the blog a little bit based on all the discussions we had so far.

 

[VortechsTG]

And we were just being very productive here

Ik man, but if it's more accurate and solves the issue in a satisfying way for everyone I think it’s an important point to bring up.

I also don't think it has to be explicitly mentioned he is slow. That can just be inferred by Ram and Subaru keeping up with him and him not keeping up with anyone faster. I think his full transformation should just be given a superhuman rating.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Actually, i kinda confusing with the Garfiel and Preco feat, if anyone could explain i be glad.

Ok so, Garfiel as making a pattern of attacks, and did a kick that Elsa already have seen it, so when she avoid and attack Garfiel, Garfiel already knowing that she would dodge the attack, as able to do a counterattack.

The excellence of her technique, her overwhelming combat intuition, the physical abilities she’d honed, and the impossibly fine control over her own body—few could claim to be as strong as this woman. He was certain that if he showed her the same technique twice, she’d definitely see right through it. It was this absolute trust in her ability that allowed Garfiel to land a direct hit on her.

What i am confusing is how he as able to do the counter attack.
Because he send the kick into Elsa, she dodges and attack his leg, stabing his leg... And he hit his kick anyway?

That blow, apparently intended to serve as punishment for foolishly resorting to the same technique a second time while fighting a powerful foe, hit its mark.

“Rrrrraaa!!”

In that same instant, Garfiel’s foolish kick slammed right into the woman’s face(?)

“—Ngh!”

She bit down to suppress the groan of pain that threatened to escape from the back of her throat. Her knife had entered his right foot, carving his flesh all the way up to his femur. If he’d been even slightly slower, she would’ve no doubt sliced off the entire leg. But for that price, Garfiel had landed a clean blow on the woman.

I don't think i get how he as able to hit her, if she avoid the kick and stab his leg.
I also don't get because Garfiel aim at her torso, but then hit her face afterwords.

Even that very moment, he guided a powerful blow aimed at his neck off to the side before sending a kick straight into the woman’s torso.

Did he use his other leg to do another kick? Because the narration don't see to prove this theory.

That blow, apparently intended to serve as punishment for foolishly resorting to the same technique a second time while fighting a powerful foe, hit its mark.

In that same instant, Garfiel’s foolish kick slammed right into the woman’s face.

The narration calls both attack foolish, so is meant to be the same attack, but i am confusing how he did.

I got this trought after seeing the anime, where instead of using a kick, he stab her in the eyes instead with his hand, which makes sense.
Here

 

[Zabazab]

Tiger Garf is merely clumbsy and unbalanced, he struggles against a single opponent due to having a hard time switching between attack defence.

He's actually described as quite fast, he's just awkward in certain combat situations. Becoming mindless does not help his combat power either.

 

[VortechsTG]

Actually, i kinda confusing with the Garfiel and Preco feat, if anyone could explain i be glad.

Read through it again and it looks like he just disguised a kick to the face as the same kick to the torso he tried earlier.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Read through it again and it looks like he just disguised a kick to the face as the same kick to the torso he tried earlier.

Can you show me the quote that indicates this?

 

[VortechsTG]

He's actually described as quite fast, he's just awkward in certain combat situations. Becoming mindless does not help his combat power either.

Oh I'm sure he's still fast. I just think he got slower.

 

[VortechsTG]

Can you show me the quote that indicates this?

I think you already sent it. It says he sent a kick into her torso and then he ends up kicking her face instead. Tappei often uses these kind of fake out to show what the characters expect to happen vs what actually happens.