Fear and Famine (Fear and Hunger Discussion Thread)

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

So, how do we deal with, basically every enemy's explicit parts?

Quite simple, occupy the censorship mod .

 

[StretchSebe]

Quite simple, occupy the censorship mod .

Yup. The wiki.gg censors them for the most part, but we could go pinecone pig censor route, or just the average TV black bar route.

 

[StretchSebe]

Heyo: Working on a page for the Guard still, but in the meantime I also did a blog on speeds to some... underwhelming results.

I don't think that the results themselves are due to bad math or method (though they could be). I am dubious of them considering how athletic three of the four main characters necessarily are given their fields of expertise, among other in game reasons.

Any suggestions, or second opinions on these calcs?

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

sorry if this is slightly off topic but is it odd to want to make a matchup between Cahara and Guts?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

sorry if this is slightly off topic but is it odd to want to make a matchup between Cahara and Guts?

Most lads wanna do that with Ragnvaldr lol
Although, Cahara being 8-C might make it a stomp

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

Most lads wanna do that with Ragnvaldr lol
Although, Cahara being 8-C might make it a stomp

damn. I can put Cahara against Homer. (unless if I buff him wink wink nudge nudge)

 

[StretchSebe]

Most lads wanna do that with Ragnvaldr lol

Yep. Sort of like doing Le'garde vs Griffith

Although, Cahara being 8-C might make it a stomp

I definitely need to do more scaling of the 'lower tier' stuff, and find blogs/calcs of others scaling them, but where is 8-C coming from? I could see with items like the explosive vial, but do you mean outright they are physically 8-C?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I definitely need to do more scaling of the 'lower tier' stuff, and find blogs/calcs of others scaling them, but where is 8-C coming from? I could see with items like the explosive vial, but do you mean outright they are physically 8-C?

I mean, the explosive vial sometimes can't even kill guards, and basically everyone dismembers them with ease

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

An explosive vial will also never kill an Maneba and they're like the weakest enemy in the game

 

[StretchSebe]

I mean, the explosive vial sometimes can't even kill guards, and basically everyone dismembers them with ease

An explosive vial will also never kill an Maneba and they're like the weakest enemy in the game

In battle stats and interactions are all kinds of out of wack. Frapollo94 shows how defense doesn't even matter in the game lol

What I refer to for the explosive vial is the calc I did, and the calc that I think was accepted that DMUA did.

It is also why I did pixel scaling for overworld for the explosive vial, and for the speed calc sent above.

I'm asking you though as to where the 8-C for Cahara came from?

 

[Shmooply]

Terrified and Starving.

In battle stats and interactions are all kinds of out of wack. Frapollo94 shows how defense doesn't even matter in the game lol

A lot more complicated than that.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I'm asking you though as to where the 8-C for Cahara came from?

Since the Maneba can survive an explosive vial (Which is 8-C according to DMUA's caclulation) and Cahara can one-shot it with his Scimitar, lad would be 8-C
(Cahara can't one-shot the Maneba without his weapons, but that'd probably just put him at "At most 8-C" in Striking Strength, since lad still does chip damage)
Also battle interactions are like 100% of all we get of some enemies and like 80% of the main characters, so we shouldn't ignore them

 

[StretchSebe]

Terrified and Starving.

A lot more complicated than that.

Well then, defense isn't irrelevant. I rescind my statement about defense not mattering, and blame translators for yet another error within the localization lol.

In battle interactions seem pretty inaccurate still. Explosive vial should be somewhere from 9-A (my calc) to 8-C (DMAU's accepted calc), but as said by Adem it can't even kill one of the weakest enemies in the game.

 

[Shmooply]

So, how do we deal with, basically every enemy's explicit parts?

The GG wiki has censored versions of the sprites, we could use those if we really have to.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The GG wiki has censored versions of the sprites, we could use those if we really have to.

We'll probably need to do so since Pico's School got in trouble due to the Final Boss' dick

 

[StretchSebe]

I'm wondering how we actually go about ap/durability scaling? Do we just take the overworld stuff and extrapolate them to in-battle?

I didn't include it in my final blog on my calc of the explosive vial, but when I tried to use the radius and yield in battle, it came out to be way less joules than Building - Small Building. It also doesn't seem to make sense for a Maneba to be Building level given they're not just among the weakest enemies in the game, but that would scale stronger enemies - even marginally stronger enemies - much higher in tiering (ie, I don't think Cave Dwellers are Building level either, let alone higher). A lot in battle seems to be just weird to consider.

 

[StretchSebe]

We'll probably need to do so since Pico's School got in trouble due to the Final Boss' dick

Still working on the page, but I just used a big black bar for the Guard lol

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

We'll probably need to do so since Pico's School got in trouble due to the Final Boss' dick

welll tis a bit more complicated qwq

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I'm wondering how we actually go about ap/durability scaling? Do we just take the overworld stuff and extrapolate them to in-battle?

I didn't include it in my final blog on my calc of the explosive vial, but when I tried to use the radius and yield in battle, it came out to be way less joules than Building - Small Building. It also doesn't seem to make sense for a Maneba to be Building level given they're not just among the weakest enemies in the game, but that would scale stronger enemies - even marginally stronger enemies - much higher in tiering (ie, I don't think Cave Dwellers are Building level either, let alone higher). A lot in battle seems to be just weird to consider.

I just take it that regular humans are around 8-C in Fear and Hunger, it wouldn't be the first verse to do so,
Danganronpa is a verse where all regular humans die from a single kitchen knife stab or a hit in the head from wooden planck, but they're all listed as 9-A due to surviving some big explosions
Metal Gear is also a verse where most folks are potrayed at around 9-C but they're all listed at 8-B due to surviving an explosion and because one of the bosses uses 10 million volts in his attacks
Also if we don't use the vials, we'll probably end up with 9-B New Gods, which isn't it lol

 

[StretchSebe]

I just take it that regular humans are around 8-C in Fear and Hunger, it wouldn't be the first verse to do so,
Danganronpa is a verse where all regular humans die from a single kitchen knife stab or a hit in the head from wooden planck, but they're all listed as 9-A due to surviving some big explosions twice
Metal Gear is also a verse where most folks are potrayed at around 9-C but they're all listed at 8-B due to surviving an explosion and because one of the bosses uses 10 million volts in his attacks
Also if we don't use the vials, we'll probably end up with 9-B New Gods, which isn't it lol

Oh no, I'm not denying that humans characters can be tiers higher than 9 or anything. I'm just saying that there seems to be a massive gap between what is seen/said and possible in the story (lore and overworld events), and what happens in battle. Especially considering the amount of rubble explosive vial is capable of clearing compared to how much it sucks in battle against even the weakest enemies dealing only 40-60 damage max. Are Cavegnomes Building level because despite scaling below Maneba, explosive vial only does 40-60 damage out of their 100 hp?

There are a lot of weird things when it comes to weapons, items, and status in battle if we'd actually consider 'damage values' to be comparable to joules or grounds for assessing character's stats. Afaik, this is commonly accepted across plenty of rpg's: Damage and hp values being highly subjective or unreliable, and instead most verses rely scaling at most on in battle moves that actually have definitive, scalable properties.

What comes to mind for me is in final fantasy with Sephiroth and his supernova attack. You can calc the supernova, but what would it doing around 2000 damage actually mean?

In an example of an overworld happening for F&H, the event where just one Cavedweller (or two if you count the 'voyeur') with a rock overwhelms D'arce doesn't seem like 8-C characters doing 8-C stuff. I'd think the Cavedwellers are Street at least given the in-lore recognition of them being surprisingly muscularly developed and again, and an average one of them seeming to be able to overpower even a well trained knight, but Building level seems like a huge leap just because the explosive vial sucks in battle.

I feel it kind of fallacious to bring up, but since we bring up New Gods in battle: Status also being able to cheese bosses, and particularly The God of Fear and Hunger as they form would be a wild anti-feat to the upper tiers. In the case of the God of F&H, she is a forming Ascended God and the damage to her is irrelevant. In that fight, damage is to progress through the forms, not to get to beat her. She'd survive any status and damage, and transcend the greater scheme of things anyways, but again, it seems the battle is a means to an end for getting Ending A.

I know souls need to also be factored in too, but again, that'd be largely external to fights, and I think character stats would be better assessed external to battle.

It's also why I think cosmology is important. Battle stuff would make New Gods really weak despite their noted power well beyond most mortals, wherever you'd think they'd land in tiering.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Oh no, I'm not denying that humans characters can be tiers higher than 9 or anything. I'm just saying that there seems to be a massive gap between what is seen/said and possible in the story (lore and overworld events), and what happens in battle. Especially considering the amount of rubble explosive vial is capable of clearing compared to how much it sucks in battle against even the weakest enemies dealing only 40-60 damage max. Are Cavegnomes Building level because despite scaling below Maneba, explosive vial only does 40-60 damage out of their 100 hp?

Think the explosive vial being able to clear the rubble when the characters can't, can be attributed to like Destructive Capacity being ≠ AP or just Game Mechanics, Pokemon Trainers need specific HMs to get past a sapling or break a small rock when the Trainers themself are 9-B and have Pokemon that range from 8-A to 6-C, as for Cavegnomes, they almost die to it so they'd downscale, and in the scenario where regular-humans are 8-C, them being so isn't that far-fetched

There are a lot of weird things when it comes to weapons, items, and status in battle if we'd actually consider 'damage values' to be comparable to joules or grounds for assessing character's stats. Afaik, this is commonly accepted across plenty of rpg's: Damage and hp values being highly subjective or unreliable, and instead most verses rely scaling at most on in battle moves that actually have definitive, scalable properties.

I'm not like saying that Rag should be x5 the explosive vials, because he deals 310 while explosive vials do 60, I'm just saying that since these enemies can survive and sometimes tank an 8-C explosion, their durability would be around that level and as such, us hurting them and even one-shotting them sometimes should put the characters at 8-C, which is something a bunch of RPGs do btw
Examples:
LISA (Everyone being 9-A because bosses can survive TNT and the cast being able to harm them)
OMORI (Omori and co surviving Shark Planes Rushing at them)
Deltarune (Everyone being 8-C because the main cast only take 1 damage from an 8-C explosion)

In an example of an overworld happening for F&H, the event where just one Cavedweller (or two if you count the 'voyeur') with a rock overwhelms D'arce doesn't seem like 8-C characters doing 8-C stuff. I'd think the Cavedwellers are Street at least given the in-lore recognition of them being surprisingly muscularly developed and again, and an average one of them seeming to be able to overpower even a well trained knight, but Building level seems like a huge leap just because the explosive vial sucks in battle.

If regular lads are 8-C then the muscular Cavedwellers being so ain't so strange, and if this is about them using a rock as a weapon, then this is basically just a Danganronpa situation again, almost all 8-Cs die due to regular day to day weapons, kitchen knives, dumbbells, wooden hammers. In fact, its strongest 8-A died from a 20 meter fall, so yeah
The biggest anti-feat in F&H is probably how Cahara or D'arce can't even force a wooden door open (Which is a 10-A feat) even with their weapons, although the explosive vials also barely damage those doors, so maybe they're just sturdy, it's probably just PIS tho

I feel it kind of fallacious to bring up, but since we bring up New Gods in battle: Status also being able to cheese bosses, and particularly The God of Fear and Hunger as they form would be a wild anti-feat to the upper tiers. In the case of the God of F&H, she is a forming Ascended God and the damage to her is irrelevant. In that fight, damage is to progress through the forms, not to get to beat her. She'd survive any status and damage, and transcend the greater scheme of things anyways, but again, it seems the battle is a means to an end for getting Ending A.

The God of Fear and Hunger being a force-lose doesn't really mean that all the other fights are unusable, afterall, every other encounter ends with the enemy being a corpse, so yeah

Btw think this is the best Overworld feat, depending on how deep the hole is, it could be a high-end 9-A feat

 

[Shmooply]

the event where just one Cavedweller (or two if you count the 'voyeur') with a rock overwhelms D'arce doesn't seem like 8-C characters doing 8-C stuff. I'd think the Cavedwellers are Street at least given the in-lore recognition of them being surprisingly muscularly developed and again, and an average one of them seeming to be able to overpower even a well trained knight

I think we can use the "character was already battered and fatigued beforehand" excuse for D'arce. We know that she was held captive in their village for who knows how long after insulting their culture and trying to introduce Alll-Mer to them, and that they did all sorts of things to her prior to you saving her, then there's also the fact the cavedweller was bashing the only vulnerable part of her body as well.

 

[Abstractions]

Been awhile, need to make a big post, but I'll quickly chime in to this because it's rather easy to talk about:

Btw think this is the best Overworld feat, depending on how deep the hole is, it could be a high-end 9-A feat

Given the structure of the wall and how Crow Mauler appears to push through it leading it to crumble, there's little fragmentation one could fully gather from this feat. You could use fragmentation sure, but I don't believe it realistically gets out of 9-B due to the destruction being rather minimal. You're better off using Chaugnar actually busting through a metal wall.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Don't think we can scale anyone in F&H1 to Chaugnar tho

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

holy ******* shit Samarie pfp

 

[Abstractions]

Don't think we can scale anyone in F&H1 to Chaugnar tho

It's a complicated form of scaling back to the first game from Contestants who can funnily enough defeat Ronn Chambara.

The tormented one can't catch a break, he's a total chump.

 

[Shmooply]

Shoutouts to simpleflips the Tormented One for taking the role of the jobber for everyone else's sake.

 

[StretchSebe]

Think the explosive vial being able to clear the rubble when the characters can't, can be attributed to like Destructive Capacity being ≠ AP or just Game Mechanics, Pokemon Trainers need specific HMs to get past a sapling or break a small rock when the Trainers themself are 9-B and have Pokemon that range from 8-A to 6-C, as for Cavegnomes, they almost die to it so they'd downscale, and in the scenario where regular-humans are 8-C, them being so isn't that far-fetched

Game mechanics is fair, and pokemon is a good analogue.

I'm not like saying that Rag should be x5 the explosive vials, because he deals 310 while explosive vials do 60, I'm just saying that since these enemies can survive and sometimes tank an 8-C explosion, their durability would be around that level and as such, us hurting them and even one-shotting them sometimes should put the characters at 8-C, which is something a bunch of RPGs do btw
Examples:
LISA (Everyone being 9-A because bosses can survive TNT and the cast being able to harm them)
OMORI (Omori and co surviving Shark Planes Rushing at them)
Deltarune (Everyone being 8-C because the main cast only take 1 damage from an 8-C explosion)

Cannot speak to OMORI, or the specific Deltarune example (not sure what is being referenced), but as someone who is really into LISA, the TNT is like the supernova example from FF7 I mentioned, being something measurable besides an in game number. There are also comparable or larger explosion attacks in battle, and supporting feats in the overworld (mostly relating to vehicles, but also some explosions and weapon stuffs).

In any case, I think these would all still be about the actual attack and not the numbers, but I can see why there could be argument for using the Explosive Vial in battle for scaling. It's explosive yield in battle was really poor when I tried calcing it, but I also don't know if I was calcing yield properly.

If regular lads are 8-C then the muscular Cavedwellers being so ain't so strange, and if this is about them using a rock as a weapon, then this is basically just a Danganronpa situation again, almost all 8-Cs die due to regular day to day weapons, kitchen knives, dumbbells, wooden hammers. In fact, its strongest 8-A died from a 20 meter fall, so yeah
The biggest anti-feat in F&H is probably how Cahara or D'arce can't even force a wooden door open (Which is a 10-A feat) even with their weapons, although the explosive vials also barely damage those doors, so maybe they're just sturdy, it's probably just PIS tho

The God of Fear and Hunger being a force-lose doesn't really mean that all the other fights are unusable, afterall, every other encounter ends with the enemy being a corpse, so yeah

I meant to use it to highlight how specific numbers for damage/hp in rpg's can be largely arbitrary, and especially disparate from one rpg to the next in what they actually allow the character to deal/endure in damage.

Btw think this is the best Overworld feat, depending on how deep the hole is, it could be a high-end 9-A feat

Been awhile, need to make a big post, but I'll quickly chime in to this because it's rather easy to talk about:

Given the structure of the wall and how Crow Mauler appears to push through it leading it to crumble, there's little fragmentation one could fully gather from this feat. You could use fragmentation sure, but I don't believe it realistically gets out of 9-B due to the destruction being rather minimal. You're better off using Chaugnar actually busting through a metal wall.

I'd still like to calc this. Forgot Crow Mauler did this. He's a cool guy.

 

[StretchSebe]

Deltarune (Everyone being 8-C because the main cast only take 1 damage from an 8-C explosion)

Wait sorry, found it. Disregard my comment about not knowing what was in reference.

 

[StretchSebe]

Btw think this is the best Overworld feat, depending on how deep the hole is, it could be a high-end 9-A feat

Best besides explosive vial
Did a calc, and it's quite solid wall level stuff. Redundant, I know. That said, I'm sure it'd help as a supporting calc when we start establishing the F&H page.
Also:

Heyo: Working on a page for the Guard still, but in the meantime I also did a blog on speeds to some... underwhelming results.

I do want to calc speed for the verse, though I feel as though my findings were sorely lacking. Anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this, or other things/ways to calc speed on?

 

[Abstractions]

Going to go through some stuff now that I'm sitting down for a bit.

The conflict is that he is already dead in all the S rank endings, and doesn't seem resurected in 2.

Le'garde only looks the way he does in D'arce's S ending if rot is cast on him. It stands to reason if he was actually resurrected, he would initially look like he does rotted in 2, or how he did in her S ending, not the way he actually does simply being the Yellow King.

The detail of him ascending must 'derive' from a C ending.

Yet you can make the assumption that he is in fact resurrected due to the Rot, however when he sits on the throne it creates a reflection that isn't indicative of the flayed flesh. The placement of the Rot look and his design isn't just an easter egg, Miro throws these things in rather deliberately. It's not like everyone takes on the same appearance they had before when they become a New God either.

Yeah, I feel that figuring out the exact details of the magic and souls system is outside of my lane. I am comfortable about how I've pieced together the 'structure' of the verse, and how coin flips among other things point to alternate possibilities/timelines, but more minute stuff is where I personally struggle the most.

I'm still personally in the boat that one timeline is all that is necessary, but I think that at the end of the day comes from a different understanding of the source material that neither of us is necessarily more correct on. At best I can recommend both our cosmology blogs exist on the verse page and people can make sense of it in their own ways.

The main thing I'm more against is that New Gods end up taking Low 2-C for your take on the cycle, should their ascendance lead to another timeline that is more or less a consequence of branching paths itself rather than them actually making it. I don't know if anything I said on the subject gave insight into maybe a giving you a different perspective on that but that's just my two cents there.

For nashrah, doesn't he kind of obliterate us in the early game (and the fact he one shots you if you try to do the ding dong with him), meanwhile he gets destroyed by Gro-goroth in the late game? Would this at least entail Accelerated Development for the main cast, or is there some lore shenanigans that I forgot about?

I do believe there is some degree of Accelerated Development at play with the souls and whatnot, the Hexen itself is a means to use souls to tech people skills that would otherwise take years of practice to master. It's just not a commonly known practice and perhaps a guarded secret, provided the obtaining of souls and the enhancement of the self in that fashion requires souls (murder) and is potentially tied to Sulfur in some way.

Nas'hrah does set you ablaze should you attempt to sacrifice him, yes. But this is also in part that humans also aren't very flame resistant and the spell is likely potent, Enki would have set the church ablaze with pyromancy trick and killed everyone inside should you have selected that dialogue.

That, or you interpret the act of Gro-goroth swatting Nas'hrah away like a bothersome fly was due to his complete lack of reverence for the deities and sheer disrespect. The trace didn't have any qualms about dealing with someone in full force should they be an actual annoyance.

It could also mean that the Kaiser we saw/fought was actually just a (super) blood golem, as Nashrah outright says he survived through some kind of blood ritual.

This is more than likely referring to the very same ritual Marina's father was using, rather than him being a blood golem.

Some stuff worth noting, but it appears the Yellow King is substantially superior to the other New Gods in some way, at least according to Nosramus' implications

Le'garde's efforts were to emulate the struggle of each of the soul types, it seems. And thus take the role of each of them instead of being split amongst a fellowship. It's what his conquest was for, to exert his power and will as a Dominating one. Tormented due to his torture and demise within the dungeons, etc.

sorry if this is slightly off topic but is it odd to want to make a matchup between Cahara and Guts?

The objectively superior take is Cahara vs. Dismas.

I definitely need to do more scaling of the 'lower tier' stuff, and find blogs/calcs of others scaling them, but where is 8-C coming from? I could see with items like the explosive vial, but do you mean outright they are physically 8-C?

The cast would be, yes. As consequence of killing things that could survive the explosive vial's head damage, things like Chambara, Crow Mauler, Maneba, Moonless Guard, etc. This doesn't deprive the explosive vial of its use though, just because they can strike at that tier doesn't mean they have the AoE or means to clear out cave-ins easily, especially when being withered away by the dungeon's supernatural effects on their body and sanity.

You should know the characters aren't exactly gluttons despite needing such in-game, it's all due to the unnatural hunger that is induced upon them from the darkness.

I mean, the explosive vial sometimes can't even kill guards, and basically everyone dismembers them with ease

Head evasion can be misleading, it's why I prefer to use Crow Mauler or Chambara when arguing this.

We know that she was held captive in their village for who knows how long after insulting their culture and trying to introduce Alll-Mer to them.

Our resident simp is quite based, it turns out.

I do want to calc speed for the verse, though I feel as though my findings were sorely lacking. Anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this, or other things/ways to calc speed on?

Termina provides speed feats from gun users, we even have likely weapon models to pull exact speeds from.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Thinking about it, every main character can learn every skill and spell in the game, wonder how we'll put that in their profiles

 

[Abstractions]

Thinking about it, every main character can learn every skill and spell in the game, wonder how we'll put that in their profiles

Separating base skills from Hexen skills.

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

The objectively superior take is Cahara vs. Dismas.

how about Brad? (I haven't played both)

 

[Shmooply]

Thinking about it, every main character can learn every skill and spell in the game, wonder how we'll put that in their profiles

Le funny tabber.

how about Brad? (I haven't played both)

Wannabe dad vs extreme helicopter parenting dad, checks out.

 

[StretchSebe]

Yet you can make the assumption that he is in fact resurrected due to the Rot, however when he sits on the throne it creates a reflection that isn't indicative of the flayed flesh. The placement of the Rot look and his design isn't just an easter egg, Miro throws these things in rather deliberately. It's not like everyone takes on the same appearance they had before when they become a New God either.

Le'garde only looks the way he does in D'arce's S ending if rot is cast on him. It stands to reason if he was actually resurrected, he would initially look like he does rotted in 2, or how he did in her S ending, not the way he actually does simply being the Yellow King.

I assumed he wasn't resurrected, saying if he was actually resurrected that he would look similar to how he does when Rot is cast on him.

I'm still personally in the boat that one timeline is all that is necessary, but I think that at the end of the day comes from a different understanding of the source material that neither of us is necessarily more correct on. At best I can recommend both our cosmology blogs exist on the verse page and people can make sense of it in their own ways.

I can accept agreeing to disagree. I'll admit and be blunt though; I feel discontent with ending it like this.

I provided a lot of evidence and explanation, and feel the pieces of evidence were addressed in a way that was more about devaluing them as exhibiting a multiverse rather than challenging them for being flawed or incorrect: That by repeatedly invoking the fact that those pieces of evidence could be interpreted in other ways that there cannot be multiple timelines. Maybe it's my fault for being on defense starting the thread off with it, but I did ask for evidence or nuance on F&H operating on a single complex timeline and still found myself having to defend my multiverse position instead.

So much of the in-game dialogue and texts (and if we are going to accept gameplay mechanics for scaling, the rougelike mechanics which have in-world recognition through various forces/forms) suggest that the greater scheme of things is as simple as a multiverse. Possibilities and fates for the characters are all contained in this greater scheme, and a good chunk of which is what we can experience as players. We can choose backstories. Rescue Le'garde or find him dead. Get through to endings or die early. Die many horrible deaths or not even so much as lose a limb. Discover secrets mortals shouldn't or wander the dungeons aimlessly. Even just say **** it and jump into the shit pit.

I just don't see F&H running off a single complex timeline when much of what I've been provided in opposition to it being a multiverse is soft rejection of the many instances of clear multiplicity of choices a player can pick and be subject to, and branching timelines without anything more to go off of than simply being unable to see it within a single playthrough despite being able to see it across multiple playthroughs.

To go all the way back to the tone thing, I'm just discontent. Hopefully I don't come off to harsh or anything.

The main thing I'm more against is that New Gods end up taking Low 2-C for your take on the cycle, should their ascendance lead to another timeline that is more or less a consequence of branching paths itself rather than them actually making it. I don't know if anything I said on the subject gave insight into maybe a giving you a different perspective on that but that's just my two cents there.

I never suggested they created universes or the possibilities/timelines. I feel as though I've maintained that at their peak, they have enough power to influence the timeline of the current universe as is (during the cycle in which they rule), and that they have the durability to move onto the next universe and its timeline with the only consequence being that they seem to lose their peak power (and likely durability) from the cycle they ascended within. They also get this power from ascension in The Void, outside spacetime.

Granted, we don't see them do this at a universe level of course. Their influence over the timeline could be entirely localized to earth in terms of range. I'd still say that being able to have control over fate, and maintain the universe in the absence of the Old Gods is a pretty huge feat, even if puny compared to Old Gods.

 

[StretchSebe]

Thinking about it, every main character can learn every skill and spell in the game, wonder how we'll put that in their profiles

Maybe as support for their intelligence stat?

Separating base skills from Hexen skills.

Or this, like as optional techniques/attacks

The objectively superior take is Cahara vs. Dismas.

how about Brad? (I haven't played both)

My heart says Brad but my head says Dismas (I've played LISA not Darkest, but Darkest would be far more appropriate/fitting)

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Separating base skills from Hexen skills.

Phase Step, Transmutation, Combustion... aren't on the Hexen tho

 

[Abstractions]

Phase Step, Transmutation, Combustion... aren't on the Hexen tho

Hexen & Scroll Skills*, problem solved.

I assumed he wasn't resurrected, saying if he was actually resurrected that he would look similar to how he does when Rot is cast on him.

He doesn't need to reflect this in his New God state though, our reflection isn't completely one-to-one with our human self and it's very possible he has done something to mask his appearance with time.

I just don't see F&H running off a single complex timeline when much of what I've been provided in opposition to it being a multiverse is soft rejection of the many instances of clear multiplicity of choices a player can pick and be subject to, and branching timelines without anything more to go off of than simply being unable to see it within a single playthrough despite being able to see it across multiple playthroughs.

To go all the way back to the tone thing, I'm just discontent. Hopefully I don't come off to harsh or anything.

You don't come off as harsh, I just don't believe either of us are going to be able to fully convince the other when we simply come to different conclusions with the same information provided in this format.

I'm accepting that people have a differing opinion than me. It's okay.

I'd still say that being able to have control over fate, and maintain the universe in the absence of the Old Gods is a pretty huge feat, even if puny compared to Old Gods.

Except it's not really maintenance in their absence, they can struggle to even do that and the world could end up stagnating and reverting back an age should their influence be destructive. The world would not end if the New Gods remained recluse within the Void or nobody ascended at all, humanity would just lack direction and remain stagnant.

 

[Tyranno223]

This is more than likely referring to the very same ritual Marina's father was using, rather than him being a blood golem.

Perhaps, but the end result is that he survives through some unknown means.

Le'garde's efforts were to emulate the struggle of each of the soul types, it seems. And thus take the role of each of them instead of being split amongst a fellowship. It's what his conquest was for, to exert his power and will as a Dominating one. Tormented due to his torture and demise within the dungeons, etc.

This is true, but it doesn't change the result. Le'garde's godhood seems to be a step ahead of other New Gods.

Not necessarily anywhere near Ascended or Older god, but still.