Fear and Famine (Fear and Hunger Discussion Thread)

[StretchSebe]

Especially after Super Eyepatch Wolf made a video on the game, I have seen a lot of people express interest in scaling this verse. We already have two potential calcs for the Explosive Vial: One that DMAU had done first, and one that I had done having not known they had done one yet. I'm surprised a thread hasn't been made, so here's the thread for all things Fear and Hunger.

SPOILERS. Careful of that.

As a general discussion, there's a lot we can do for getting the verse a page, as well as getting pages for characters. On that, I've been working on a blog page explaining the cosmology.

The main idea behind F&H 1, and especially 2 is that much of the story is left up to the individual player to determine (what I've often seen more simply termed a 'multiple interpretations' style). Player's choice of playthrough aside, the plot is demonstrated to be quite malleable, able to change through random chance, or through 'small' events/options that can drastically change something later. That said, I tried to base as much of this blog on the specific dialogue, text, and occurrences that aren't (necessarily) dependent on playthrough or choices in story/ending (what I refer to early in the blog as the 'individual stories') to at least piece together the way the world works, and the relative structure of it.

As you can see in the comments of this blog, there is still much to discuss and agree/disagree upon. Abstractions has suggested they would make an attempt at cosmology in the comments too, and I've been discussing potential Low 1-A tiering for The Old/Ascended Gods with Qawsedf234. So, here we are with a Fear and Hunger thread finally.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As I said in the blog I don't think the Old Ones qualify for Low 1-A, but the rest I'm fine with.

 

[StretchSebe]

As I said in the blog I don't think the Old Ones qualify for Low 1-A, but the rest I'm fine with.

Oh yeah, didn't mean to imply you were in favor. Just that we were talking about it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wait, this isn't a CRT. You should probably make one if you're doing a blog.

 

[StretchSebe]

Wait, this isn't a CRT. You should probably make one if you're doing a blog.

Given there isn't a page for either the verse or my cosmology blog, I figured we could continue to talk here about Old God tiering.

I could make a specific CRT if/when the thread picks up more steam. I've talked to a number of people interested in the verse (just sent messages too), and was intending that this general discussion be the main place to collaborate on getting the verse onto the wiki.

On the note of the blog, I mentioned last how the new gods refer to the Old Gods influence as being unquantifiable, and being endlessly present from cycle to cycle in the answers on certain enemies (specifically focusing on darkness given it is the main force that physically/mentally corrupts in the verse):

Mumblers: "Creations of the black. The darkness has had its way with countless of victims. They are fully erect despite being left untouched for decades."
Assassin Spectre: "He travelled far from the east just to stop the spreading of the inevitable darkness. His iron will manifests in his blade even to this day."

All of the new gods' answers are both based on their immortal experience living through every time cycle, and knowledge of the greater scheme of things (the multiverse) that they achieved through ascension. Besides the Old Gods being beyond the greater scheme of things as I've mentioned (having 'left the world'), this strongly suggests the influence of an Old God really is immeasurably higher.

 

[Qawsedf234]

On the note of the blog, I mentioned last how the new gods refer to the Old Gods influence as being unquantifiable, and being endlessly present from cycle to cycle in the answers on certain enemies (specifically focusing on darkness given it is the main force that physically/mentally corrupts in the verse)

The Old Gods are unquantifiable to the New Gods, but that doesn't make then Low 1-A. I think you're confusing a wide cosmology with a stacked cosmology for the rating.

 

[StretchSebe]

The Old Gods are unquantifiable to the New Gods, but that doesn't make then Low 1-A. I think you're confusing a wide cosmology with a stacked cosmology for the rating.

I cannot find any definition, or even information the terms 'wide cosmology' or 'stacked cosmology' online. I would assume wide would mean 'encompassing certain dimensions,' and stacked would be 'higher dimensions/existence,' potentially including beyond dimensional existence, but what do mean when using both of these terms?

 

[Abstractions]

Abstractions has suggested they would make an attempt at cosmology in the comments too

(A terrifying presence has entered the room.)

That is what I've said, yes!

 

[Qawsedf234]

I cannot find any definition, or even information the terms 'wide cosmology' or 'stacked cosmology' online. I would assume wide would mean 'encompassing certain dimensions,' and stacked would be 'higher dimensions/existence,' potentially including beyond dimensional existence, but what do mean when using both of these terms?

Wide just means how many alternate planes something includes, i.e. a multiverse. Stacked or layered is something like Hilbert Space.

From my reading the verse looks more like the former than the latter.

 

[StretchSebe]

Wide just means how many alternate planes something includes, i.e. a multiverse. Stacked or layered is something like Hilbert Space.

From my reading the verse looks more like the former than the latter.

Makes sense.

While it is true that the greater scheme of things is a wide cosmology, the Old Gods are still repeatedly said to have 'moved on' and 'left' it altogether by priests and the new gods knowledgeable on their existence. There is no Hilbert Space/infinite dimensions mentioned in game explicitly, likely due to the fact that the game takes place in 1590's Europe. That said, the dialogue/text also doesn't say they are just 'above' the new gods, or 'at the top' of the greater scheme of things, but beyond them.

In that regard, these antiquated descriptions aren't describing the Old Gods as fifth or sixth dimensional, or even 'at the top' of the dimensions of the cosmology, but outside them to begin with.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Honestly, I didnt expcet the verse being above Tier 8
Thats a surpise

 

[StretchSebe]

Honestly, I didnt expcet the verse being above Tier 8
Thats a surpise

World is nearly as crazy as those in the dungeon lol

 

[Qawsedf234]

While it is true that the greater scheme of things is a wide cosmology, the Old Gods are still repeatedly said to have 'moved on' and 'left' it altogether by priests and the new gods knowledgeable on their existence. There is no Hilbert Space/infinite dimensions mentioned in game explicitly, likely due to the fact that the game takes place in 1590's Europe. That said, the dialogue/text also doesn't say they are just 'above' the new gods, or 'at the top' of the greater scheme of things, but beyond them.

But that's also the point there. From the view of a priest or even the New Gods just being in a higher dimensional realm would render them far beyond reality and the minor schemes of the world. Like 4-D to 5-D is treated as undefinably infinite from the higher dimensional perspective. Simply being beyond the mortal plane just isn't a Low 1-A justification.

In that regard, these antiquated descriptions aren't describing the Old Gods as fifth or sixth dimensional, or even 'at the top' of the dimensions of the cosmology, but outside them to begin with.

Afaik something like higher dimensions are never stated in the games. The Old Ones are only described as being outside the world, which defaults to Low 1-C without more to it.

 

[Abstractions]

Afaik something like higher dimensions are never stated in the games. The Old Ones are only described as being outside the world, which defaults to Low 1-C without more to it.

There are places that do exist outside of time, but them being qualitatively superior isn't really said or suggested, more that they are a space that exists independently of the world.

Places like True Mahabre, the Grand Hall and potentially things like the sulfur pits are like this.

I'm more of the viewpoint that Old Gods are Low 2-C, and only possibly Low 1-C depending on how you argue them leaving the world works. Because from my understanding it's less ascending to a higher plane and instead them distancing themselves insofar as to become effectively non-existent. Their presence is fading away, unless you want to argue that they are suffering from a range issue I'm more willing to accept it is that they simply don't want to be around. Humanity will never love Sylvian like she loves them and instead humanity exists only to be selfish and covet their power. They left for milk.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm more of the viewpoint that Old Gods are Low 2-C, and only possibly Low 1-C depending on how you argue them leaving the world works. Because from my understanding it's less ascending to a higher plane and instead them distancing themselves insofar as to become effectively non-existent.

From the how I view it, the blog is saying the New Gods are Low 2-C, the lesser forms of the Old Gods are above them all and they're just fragments of the original Old Gods, which would warrant a Low 1-C rating.

Traces of Gro-Goroth: WHY.. DO.. YOU.. RESIST.. HUMAN?

PC: I want to crush the Old Gods!

Traces of Gro-Goroth: YOU.. CRUSH? I AM NOTHING BUT A SHELL.. A FRACTION OF THE TRACES THAT IS LEFT OF GRO-GOROTH

It should also be added, at least in my view, that the Dark Priest gets the following in their S-Rank ending

It's not like your ascension wasn't without its merits even if you withdrew at the last second. You saw the reflection after all and understood its intents.

So the Priest can "understand" the intentions of the New Gods and what happens with ascension, but when exposed to a true unbroken concepts they're mind shatters and they die.

Do you think "At least 2-C, likely Low 1-C" would work better then?

 

[StretchSebe]

Afaik something like higher dimensions are never stated in the games. The Old Ones are only described as being outside the world, which defaults to Low 1-C without more to it.

I guess that is fair. I still think they're sufficiently described as 'outside,' and there is much that suggests so, but Low 1-C is fine to start. Changed the blog to mention them being at least Low 1-C.

From the how I view it, the blog is saying the New Gods are Low 2-C, the lesser forms of the Old Gods are above them all and they're just fragments of the original Old Gods, which would warrant a Low 1-C rating.

Not fragments: Traces. Physical, and infinitesimal byproducts of their mere existence left over due to their sheer influence on the greater scheme of things. They did leave the world and it's greater scheme behind, after all.

So the Priest can "understand" the intentions of the New Gods and what happens with ascension, but when exposed to a true unbroken concepts they're mind shatters and they die.

The exposure happens in Ending B, and they're erased from existence. The understanding comes with Enki's S ending mainly, though also his D ending considering he goes through ascension there too.

 

[StretchSebe]

There are places that do exist outside of time, but them being qualitatively superior isn't really said or suggested, more that they are a space that exists independently of the world.

Places like True Mahabre, the Grand Hall and potentially things like the sulfur pits are like this.

True. Regardless of the retcon from the second game, The Void inarguably operates almost completely differently from the rest of the world. It is additionally described by the New Gods as a 'plane,' and they say 'Thus all of us have spent an eternity searcing its empty corners...' (game is also known for sporadic typos lol) besides being where New Gods ascend in the first place, etc. Definitely outside the spacetime of the world given this and the stuff mentioned in the blog.

I'm more of the viewpoint that Old Gods are Low 2-C, and only possibly Low 1-C depending on how you argue them leaving the world works. Because from my understanding it's less ascending to a higher plane and instead them distancing themselves insofar as to become effectively non-existent.
Their presence is fading away, unless you want to argue that they are suffering from a range issue I'm more willing to accept it is that they simply don't want to be around. Humanity will never love Sylvian like she loves them and instead humanity exists only to be selfish and covet their power. They left for milk.

They are functionally non-existent, yet their presence remains ever present from one cycle to another. They do distance themselves from the world, causing the world to increasingly decay as cycles pass, but the concepts they provided to the world remain undiluted and absolute. No amount of New Gods have been able to affect them in any way; the best they can do is lead humanity through the dying world cycle after cycle.

 

[Abstractions]

The blog is saying the New Gods are Low 2-C

I mean, they hardly are Low 2-C if at all. They don't maintain the universe in any cosmic sense, they more or less are akin to the God Hand. (I have not read Berserk but I'm more using it as a frame of reference) The New Gods are essentially puppeteers that manipulate world events from behind the scenes, the events of the first game are Nilvan in particular orchestrating the events such as providing Enki with visions of Le'garde.

They are more or less superhuman immortals, demigods that from the Grand Hall view time in a non-linear fashion. They use that to cause wars and to bring about the events that lead to the ascension of a human into something that rivals the power of the Old Ones; an Ascended God. That was Nilvan's goal with GoFaH, and that is what the Kaiser and the New Gods were doing in Termina with Logic. They caused World Wars for that.

They are less super-powerful beings and more grand manipulators. An Illuminati.

When people speak of cycles, it's about not only how long a New God has spent towards an avenue of study, but it's also the repeated cycle of ascension and then the inevitable usurping that occurs when their power fades and someone else sits on the throne. This cycle predates even Alll-mer as the Lizardmen before humanity were New Gods all the same. It's just a cycle of time, of which was being halted for the longest time because Francois sat on the throne for hundreds of years and refused there being any new successors. The New Gods even request that he die for this.

True. Regardless of the retcon from the second game, The Void inarguably operates very differently from the rest of the world, being described by the New Gods as a 'plane' and saying 'Thus all of us have spent an eternity searcing its empty corners...' (game is also known for sporadic typos lol), being where New Gods ascend in the first place, etc.

I know what you speak of and it's hardly a retcon, Enki isn't the arbiter of wisdom we understand him to be during Termina. The Void has no place being on Rher because that would entail all the older gods came from him, which is paradoxical with the fact that Gro-goroth is dubbed "the older one" and Sylvian being the creator of the universe.

Nothing was really confirmed with that idea, it was more of a stretch if anything. The wiki itself is incomplete and isn't 100% fact-checked.

No amount of New Gods have been able to affect them in any way; the best they can do is lead humanity through the dying world cycle after cycle.

Except, their meddling does in fact work, as absolute as the Old Gods may be their traces are exploitable. The New Gods understand that they themselves never can physically amount to them, so they rely on subterfuge and patience. They are dangerously calculating and use that to stand up to the Old Ones; by planting those prime for ascension and orchestrating events to lead to that.

GoFaH's existence would cause humanity to progress into the Cruel Age and technologically develop, which consequentially would lead to the metaphorical and physical death of Vinushka from the industrialization of nature, thus providing Logic the means of ascension through the essence of Vinushka - just as GoFaH used the Depths.

Their entire game plan is to produce something to stand up to the Old Gods and establish independence from them, that is why they made GoFaH and why they are making Logic.

 

[Qawsedf234]

mean, they hardly are Low 2-C if at all.

I thought the blog was getting Low 2-C from the time loops the New Gods cause. If that's just a byproduct of them being non-linear then I agree that it wouldn't be Tier 2.

 

[StretchSebe]

I mean, they hardly are Low 2-C if at all. They don't maintain the universe in any cosmic sense, they more or less are akin to the God Hand. (I have not read Berserk but I'm more using it as a frame of reference)

The creator was inspired by many different existing ip's, and Berserk was one of them. Have yet to read it, but Le'garde is heavily inspired by a character from it, no spoilers. Another example is how the Old Gods are inspired by the Great Old Ones from Cthulhu mythos; Gro-goroth's name sounding very similar to Gol-goroth, and his book even being the Necronomicon. I think it is alright to use these influences as a relative frame of reference given how heavily they inspired the characterization and/or functions of lore, and how similar said characters/lore can be. Obviously not one-to-one, or as some 'basis.' Just in aiding understanding on how things operate.

The New Gods are essentially puppeteers that manipulate world events from behind the scenes, the events of the first game are Nilvan in particular orchestrating the events such as providing Enki with visions of Le'garde.

They are more or less superhuman immortals, demigods that from the Grand Hall view time in a non-linear fashion. They use that to cause wars and to bring about the events that lead to the ascension of a human into something that rivals the power of the Old Ones; an Ascended God. That was Nilvan's goal with GoFaH, and that is what the Kaiser and the New Gods were doing in Termina with Logic. They caused World Wars for that.

They are less super-powerful beings and more grand manipulators. An Illuminati.

When people speak of cycles, it's about not only how long a New God has spent towards an avenue of study, but it's also the repeated cycle of ascension and then the inevitable usurping that occurs when their power fades and someone else sits on the throne. This cycle predates even Alll-mer as the Lizardmen before humanity were New Gods all the same. It's just a cycle of time, of which was being halted for the longest time because Francois sat on the throne for hundreds of years and refused there being any new successors. The New Gods even request that he die for this.

I do not disagree with the interpretation that New Gods are more 'manipulators,' but there's a few things this description is missing, particularly when discussing cycles.

For starters, the New Gods add another New God to their ranks every cycle. Francois was acting out of vain self-interest. Sitting on the throne for a few hundred years was futile to begin with because a few hundred years in a cycle is nothing to New Gods and the greater scheme of things. Ascension grants more than just immortality; the New Gods literally live from one universe to another. Such is why they imply the pit of enlightenment houses rows upon rows of New Gods sitting at tables in an answer on themselves. Ascension itself is not cyclical; it is just a process. It is the repeated pursuit of ascension by humans that is cyclical, which is why there is a new New God to rule over humanity every cycle. Time being cyclical is also strongly implied to be more about timelines than 'patterns over history.' They say as much in various answers:

I mentioned it already but when talking about The Void they say: 'Thus all of us have spent an eternity searcing its empty corners...' The New Gods don't speak in hyperbole: Their answers are as direct and succinct as they can provide on any given subject. Additionally, when asked about New Gods, they say: "Older gods left us without answers in the times of peril. For men to take matters to their own hands, we had to form. We are many as you can see. But we have taken a seat in the grand hall for now to let the new ones reign for their time." This is covered in the blog, but there are also a couple of examples of New Gods describing other New Gods spending multiple cycles in a given pursuit after their prime cycle.

New Gods also have the ability to leave The Void and return to earth to rule humanity during their prime cycle. Besides being immortal, and likely having acausality, this (among other things in game) implies they do achieve greater power through ascension, especially as mortals cannot leave The Void without matching such, let alone be returned to the present (largely shown in all versions of Endings C and D, as well as Enki's S Ending in which he attains this power). That said, it is heavily implied that as the world decays, so do their power, which is why I say that they would be Low 2-C in their prime cycle, likely relying on inactivity (sitting around in the Pit of Enlightenment) in order to maintain such power from one cycle to the next.

Overall, I think any interpretation of the New Gods excluding all this information we have about cycles, as well as precluding cycles themselves being timelines inherently requires missing or ignoring a lot of explicit text, and observable phenomenon about how the world works in order to maintain. I do accept many interpretations of the story given how vague, and intentionally confusing it can be, but there is much in the game provided that explains the structure and/or functions of the world as a whole at least.

I know what you speak of and it's hardly a retcon, Enki isn't the arbiter of wisdom we understand him to be during Termina. The Void has no place being on Rher because that would entail all the older gods came from him, which is paradoxical with the fact that Gro-goroth is dubbed "the older one" and Sylvian being the creator of the universe.

I try to avoid even discussing the retcon of the second game due to it not changing anything about ascension or The Void. It's such a small detail that only serves to provide a 'context' to The Void, not expand on or explain anything about it beyond Enki's interpretation of its 'place.' I do agree the Wiki isn't a great source. I mostly use the .gg wiki for specific lines of text and lore, and while it isn't much better, it at least has things like the actual answers of the New Gods, and book texts. It's also updated far more frequently.

Nothing was really confirmed with that idea, it was more of a stretch if anything. The wiki itself is incomplete and isn't 100% fact-checked.


Except, their meddling does in fact work, as absolute as the Old Gods may be their traces are exploitable. The New Gods understand that they themselves never can physically amount to them, so they rely on subterfuge and patience. They are dangerously calculating and use that to stand up to the Old Ones; by planting those prime for ascension and orchestrating events to lead to that.

GoFaH's existence would cause humanity to progress into the Cruel Age and technologically develop, which consequentially would lead to the metaphorical and physical death of Vinushka from the industrialization of nature, thus providing Logic the means of ascension through the essence of Vinushka - just as GoFaH used the Depths.

Their entire game plan is to produce something to stand up to the Old Gods and establish independence from them, that is why they made GoFaH and why they are making Logic.

There are New Gods that do want to, and work around the influence of the Old Gods. The vast majority of them are complacent though, and merely maintain the status quo of their dying world (all the New Gods sitting in the Pit of Enlightenment). Also, Nas'hrah and many followers do explicitly draw powers/magic from the Old Gods concepts, but not their traces. As shown in Ending B and hardmode D/C, these physical traces are far too much for any mortal or New God to actually 'exploit.'

 

[Abstractions]

For starters, the New Gods add another New God to their ranks every cycle. Francois was acting out of vain self-interest. Sitting on the throne for a few hundred years was futile to begin with because a few hundred years in a cycle is nothing to New Gods and the greater scheme of things. Ascension grants more than just immortality; the New Gods literally live from one universe to another. Such is why they imply the pit of enlightenment houses rows upon rows of New Gods sitting at tables in an answer on themselves. Ascension itself is not cyclical; it is just a process. It is the repeated pursuit of ascension by humans that is cyclical, which is why there is a new New God to rule over humanity every cycle. Time being cyclical is also strongly implied to be more about timelines than 'patterns over history.' They say as much in various answers:

It is "nothing" in that New Gods have functionally all the time in the world from where they sit, however with Francois prolonging his cycle he prevented the addition of others to their fold, much to their distaste. They span back as far as the prehistoric era, well before Alll-mer ascended. The Hall containing rows upon rows of these mysterious figures is only natural with the millennia they have had to grow their ranks. Time goes on with or without their input.

I mentioned it already but when talking about The Void they say: 'Thus all of us have spent an eternity searcing its empty corners...' The New Gods don't speak in hyperbole: Their answers are as direct and succinct as they can provide on any given subject. Additionally, when asked about New Gods, they say: "Older gods left us without answers in the times of peril. For men to take matters to their own hands, we had to form. We are many as you can see. But we have taken a seat in the grand hall for now to let the new ones reign for their time." This is covered in the blog, but there are also a couple of examples of New Gods describing other New Gods spending multiple cycles in a given pursuit after their prime cycle.

Except that isn't really true, the New Gods more or less go out of their way to not provide you information on a specific subject matter, such as with the Girl:

"A pure being, in which both strength of the new gods and a seed of the man from the prophecies come together. Never in the written history has there been similar situation. It is truly exciting, isn't it? We can expect great things from her."

We already understand them to hold information of the future, just as when they speak of events that have not happened yet; the Woodsman is random character during the events of Termina yet we have direct information about him from them - because it doesn't jeopardize any of their plans. Nilvan's plan was to create something similar in power and scope and the New Gods wanted this as well, they could not tell us about Ending A as it could potentially interfere with Nilvan's plan should we fully understand what is to happen.

Not that I believe this completely matters, because I don't believe them being direct relinquishes them of the ability to speak in a hyperbolic manner, and even then it might not feel hyperbolic even. They have been around for a terrible amount of time, while it may not be literally an eternity it certainly can feel that way to them, any one of us would find a period spanning millennia to constitute an eternity.

When they talk of multiple cycles, they refer to each New God spending their own cycle in a given pursuit, not others or spending more than one. Valteil's question emphasizes that he wasted his cycle without actually achieving anything.

New Gods also have the ability to leave The Void and return to earth to rule humanity during their prime cycle. Besides being immortal, and likely having acausality, this (among other things in game) implies they do achieve greater power through ascension, especially as mortals cannot leave The Void without matching such, let alone be returned to the present (largely shown in all versions of Endings C and D, as well as Enki's S Ending in which he attains this power).

Of course they achieve a greater power, but it is nothing of the cosmic degree. Their power is depicted as a great strength they can use to crush warring armies but eventually if the New God reigned in a ruthless fashion they'd eventually face someone that could stand up to them and ultimately take their life.

Whether or not the New God actually brings you back to the present isn't actually said, at that point it could also be logically assumed that you could have left yourself, you still have the Cube of the Depths to return to the present and leave the Ancient City, your objective complete even if you didn't get all the understanding you may have wanted. But sure, they help you leave the Void. That much is a given.

Overall, I think any interpretation of the New Gods excluding all this information we have about cycles, as well as precluding cycles themselves being timelines inherently requires missing or ignoring a lot of explicit text, and observable phenomenon about how the world works in order to maintain.

I don't believe I misinterpret or exclude any details, it's just the nature of the game allowing people to understand it in different ways. I speak in the lore channel in the server often, and nobody claims to have all the answers or 100% objective take on the subject. The world progresses fine without the assumption cycles are alternate timelines, all the way up to Termina.

I mostly use the .gg wiki for specific lines of text and lore, and while it isn't much better, it at least has things like the actual answers of the New Gods, and book texts. It's also updated far more frequently.

The Fandom wiki is rife with vandalization and misinformation, so yes it is always best to use the .gg wiki.

As shown in Ending B and hardmode D/C, these physical traces are far too much for any mortal or New God to actually 'exploit.'

This is not true, in actuality. Per'kele and the New Gods directly tell you that he leeches and exploits the traces, specifically Rher in this case. He does it all for the purpose of finding candidates to join the Sulfur Cult, and we get a rather distinct visual of chains snapping upon his death: this is directly symbolizing his connection to the trace being severed, which then comes down to combat you out of curiosity.

Per'kele is old, but he's not a New God or anything of the sort. He doesn't have the degree of cosmic awareness they do and he's found a way to use Rher. New Gods masterminding the ascension of GoFaH which then serves as a catalyst for the demise of Vinushka and the fuel for Logic is far more complicated than what Per'kele does, yet they've found their way.

 

[StretchSebe]

It is "nothing" in that New Gods have functionally all the time in the world from where they sit, however with Francois prolonging his cycle he prevented the addition of others to their fold, much to their distaste. They span back as far as the prehistoric era, well before Alll-mer ascended. The Hall containing rows upon rows of these mysterious figures is only natural with the millennia they have had to grow their ranks. Time goes on with or without their input.

It's true that time goes on without their input, and they do 'chronologically' predate All-mer. I still take this as being due to the fact that The Void itself is before (and without) time. Obviously it does exist, and is accessed in the present, but it seems to me they date back to the prehistoric era due to ascension bringing them to The Void, and gaining the power to live for more than just once cycle given what is stated in game.

Except that isn't really true, the New Gods more or less go out of their way to not provide you information on a specific subject matter, such as with the Girl:

"A pure being, in which both strength of the new gods and a seed of the man from the prophecies come together. Never in the written history has there been similar situation. It is truly exciting, isn't it? We can expect great things from her."

We already understand them to hold information of the future, just as when they speak of events that have not happened yet; the Woodsman is random character during the events of Termina yet we have direct information about him from them - because it doesn't jeopardize any of their plans. Nilvan's plan was to create something similar in power and scope and the New Gods wanted this as well, they could not tell us about Ending A as it could potentially interfere with Nilvan's plan should we fully understand what is to happen.

Not that I believe this completely matters, because I don't believe them being direct relinquishes them of the ability to speak in a hyperbolic manner, and even then it might not feel hyperbolic even. They have been around for a terrible amount of time, while it may not be literally an eternity it certainly can feel that way to them, any one of us would find a period spanning millennia to constitute an eternity.

When they talk of multiple cycles, they refer to each New God spending their own cycle in a given pursuit, not others or spending more than one. Valteil's question emphasizes that he wasted his cycle without actually achieving anything.

Not fully disclosing information doesn't mean they're lying or wrong. They're vague about the specifics in this case, but as a short answer it does describe what the deal is with the Girl perfectly well. Most answers also aren't like this, whether it be because they don't jeopardize their plans or otherwise. They even talk openly, and honestly about enemies found in game that could rival their own power (the creatures of The Void).

Especially with the knowledge and perspective they have understanding the greater scheme, and having immortality, I also don't think we should take their use of a word like 'eternity' so lightly.

Of course they achieve a greater power, but it is nothing of the cosmic degree. Their power is depicted as a great strength they can use to crush warring armies but eventually if the New God reigned in a ruthless fashion they'd eventually face someone that could stand up to them and ultimately take their life.

Whether or not the New God actually brings you back to the present isn't actually said, at that point it could also be logically assumed that you could have left yourself, you still have the Cube of the Depths to return to the present and leave the Ancient City, your objective complete even if you didn't get all the understanding you may have wanted. But sure, they help you leave the Void. That much is a given.

In ending C-II, Le'Garde uses his power to let the player's party escape the dungeons, and one of the first lines is "Your return to civilization would go without festivity. You were back to the square one essentially. Your long journey to the black gained you nothing." The description then soon mentions the Knights of the Midnight Sun returning. Le'Garde does bring the player's party back to the present.

Also, the Cube of the Depths wouldn't help a mortal in The Void. Otherwise the New God forms of the main character wouldn't be able to just leave their mortal self behind like they do in Ending D, which simply says "You never escaped the dungeons of fear and hunger. Instead you chose eternal void and darkness as a new god." We know Le'Garde can return himself and mortals to earth, and we know he rules on earth, and not from The Void.

I don't believe I misinterpret or exclude any details, it's just the nature of the game allowing people to understand it in different ways. I speak in the lore channel in the server often, and nobody claims to have all the answers or 100% objective take on the subject. The world progresses fine without the assumption cycles are alternate timelines, all the way up to Termina.

Looking back on my prior response, I apologize that it seemed I was going hard on you for disagreeing about the information. I get wordy when discussing stuff I'm passionate about, and I could have worded it much better. I'm bad at indicating tone over text.

Back on topic; I do not mean to speak as a sort of 'authority' on the game, or that I have all answers. I am confident in the general structure of the world at least involving timelines though. I took the approach of Occam's Razor which is why/how I settled on timelines. Many of the game's roguelike elements are also given in-game recognition: Two big examples being luck being the indifferent greater scheme determining a variable outcome for the player in any instance/plathrough, and the dungeons being physically 'ever changing' due to darkness, which is never seen happening in one playthrough, but is seen across playthroughs. Choices and backstories change a number of things from playthrough to playthrough. The New Gods also make the broad and sweeping statement that time is cyclical, and I doubt when using the term 'cycle' that they're just referring to a period of time that a mortal could experience/recognize that they're arbitrarily giving a different name to.

This is not true, in actuality. Per'kele and the New Gods directly tell you that he leeches and exploits the traces, specifically Rher in this case. He does it all for the purpose of finding candidates to join the Sulfur Cult, and we get a rather distinct visual of chains snapping upon his death: this is directly symbolizing his connection to the trace being severed, which then comes down to combat you out of curiosity.

Per'kele is old, but he's not a New God or anything of the sort. He doesn't have the degree of cosmic awareness they do and he's found a way to use Rher. New Gods masterminding the ascension of GoFaH which then serves as a catalyst for the demise of Vinushka and the fuel for Logic is far more complicated than what Per'kele does, yet they've found their way.

Per'kele was a servant of Rher up until she left, so I think they still drew their power from her concept as the followers of other Old Gods do.

I guess I have to ask: What is your interpretation, or thoughts on the cosmology?

 

[Cyberblader90]

Based chat

 

[Abstractions]

I still take this as being due to the fact that The Void itself is before (and without) time. Obviously it does exist, and is accessed in the present, but it seems to me they date back to the prehistoric era due to ascension bringing them to The Void, and gaining the power to live for more than just once cycle given what is stated in game.

The Void is definitely outside of time completely - the period between you sitting on the throne and actually arriving there compared to others could be a period of hundreds of years despite it having only been seconds prior, Sylvian also having created the world and humanity "at the dawn of time" would lend credence to the idea that having emerged from the Void herself it would be exempt from time; it already existed before time existed.

But this isn't actually relevant to New Gods predating Alll-mer, we know the Lizardmen before humanity sat upon the throne and resided within Ma'habre before mankind existed, this is established with the existence of the Chromatic Blights and the Lizardmen statues residing in the prison section of the dungeons. The Kingdom of Rondon more than likely didn't partake in worship of the Lizardmen let alone know what they were, they just took over the dungeons and repurposed them in ignorance of just how deep the rabbit hole went.

Lizardmen were probably using the throne for some time, even in the Grand Hall we see one of the Blights sitting at the table with the others. Humanity likely came along after this and took the throne for themselves, then Alll-mer ascended and decided to wipe the slate clean.

Not fully disclosing information doesn't mean they're lying or wrong. They're vague about the specifics in this case, but as a short answer it does describe what the deal is with the Girl perfectly well.

It's not that they are lying, wrong, or not describing her accurately, I never said that. It's that they purposefully omit information because telling the whole truth of everything could jeopardize what they are doing. The New Gods aren't anyone's ally just because they serve as a useful lore dump.

Especially with the knowledge and perspective they have understanding the greater scheme, and having immortality, I also don't think we should take their use of a word like 'eternity' so lightly.

I'm not taking it lightly when they say it, I just understand that they aren't absolved of speaking in a hyperbolic fashion, even if it may feel like an eternity to them due to them existing for millennia, it is not as if an indefinite amount of time has actually passed.

In ending C-II, Le'Garde uses his power to let the player's party escape the dungeons, and one of the first lines is "Your return to civilization would go without festivity. You were back to the square one essentially. Your long journey to the black gained you nothing." The description then soon mentions the Knights of the Midnight Sun returning. Le'Garde does bring the player's party back to the present.

He lets you out of the Void, but everything after that is an assumption. You only hear of the Knights of the Midnight Sun returning after years through a rumor you overhear, it's not indicated to be an instantaneous process, and is why I brought up the Cube of the Depths:

Also, the Cube of the Depths wouldn't help a mortal in The Void.

The reason a brought up the Cube of the Depths at all is because it is within your possession, and is the very tool that allowed you to access the past and also return to the present, not that it has any factor within the Void. New Gods can very well release you from the Void and return from it themselves but this is why Le'garde is letting you out - because you cannot leave, you can however still leave Ma'habre and the dungeons which is what the ending says: You left the dungeons. Contrary to all common sense, you made it out alive.

You can say Le'garde brings you back to the present, but I don't think it's necessary or completely useful detail to ruminate on.

Looking back on my prior response, I apologize that it seemed I was going hard on you for disagreeing about the information. I get wordy when discussing stuff I'm passionate about, and I could have worded it much better. I'm bad at indicating tone over text.

You're fine. I'm quite passionate about the games as I've been playing them for closer to half a year now and while I'm probably a bit protective of how it is represented I'm happy to be able to discuss it with others.

Per'kele was a servant of Rher up until she left, so I think they still drew their power from her concept as the followers of other Old Gods do.

It's a bit different than that, drawing from Rher's power is done through the simpler tricks like mind reading and lunar meteorite. Per'kele explains that he followed the moon god wherever he went and used him for bolstering the ranks of the Sulfur Cult. It's easier to harness a trace of an Older God because it is without any actual direction and is stuck in a logic loop. It's a force of nature without the consciousness behind it. Even Nas'hrah is able to exploit God traces:

"Only traces of the older gods remain in this plane of existence. Nas'hrah has been able to bend a powerful being under his will." - Darkness

Back on topic; I do not mean to speak as a sort of 'authority' on the game, or that I have all answers. I am confident in the general structure of the world at least involving timelines though. I took the approach of Occam's Razor which is why/how I settled on timelines. Many of the game's roguelike elements are also given in-game recognition: Two big examples being luck being the indifferent greater scheme determining a variable outcome for the player in any instance/plathrough, and the dungeons being physically 'ever changing' due to darkness, which is never seen happening in one playthrough, but is seen across playthroughs. Choices and backstories change a number of things from playthrough to playthrough.

I guess I have to ask: What is your interpretation, or thoughts on the cosmology?

This is actually a part where our interpretations diverge quite a bit, because I believe we can reasonably take elements from the game to dismiss the timelines idea. Things like D'arce canonically taking the rear when not the playable character due to her wield her sword and shield in contrast to the iron spear you get from her intro should you select that option, or Enki having dialogue that hints towards the fact that he lost to his sister and was then cast away. (This also being justified in him using Needle worm, a Depths skill just as Mastery of insects is).

The Coin of Judgement itself has lore presence, as story elements instead point to it being the Gods deciding your fate and changing reality based on your call. The Combat manual in Termina describes "Your fate being left to the higher powers" after detailing its usage. The Prophecy also describes Le'garde unifying the western world rapidly, suggesting that the Gods were always on his side and that he was "choosing the right side of the coin at every turn".

The Yellow King is on the right side of fate at every moment and is making every correct possible choice he could make as a New God, that is how he is achieving everything he has in such a short time. It isn't creating a timeline element.

The only place you could possibly consider this is with the Depths, but the only way I see that Ragnvaldr could understand that the Depths is always changing its shape is if it has been witnessed in-universe, so it's not strictly something that changes across timelines but something that changes in a single timeline as well.

I think everything can be justified within a single, complex timeline personally. But I neither claim to have all the answers.

 

[Qawsedf234]

think everything can be justified within a single, complex timeline personally. But I neither claim to have all the answers.

So while the Old God's true form is probably Tier 2 then, what would you suggest for the New Gods/Blights?

 

[Abstractions]

So while the Old God's true form is probably Tier 2 then, what would you suggest for the New Gods/Blights?

They'd probably upscale from the main cast by a lot, while the main cast is intended to functionally be normal people despite their tier the New Gods are singlehandedly capable of overthrowing governments, Kaiser did as much.

Although you do have New Gods like Chambara who gets beaten up twice, once in the first game and another time in the second. The cast of the first game is also able to fight Francois in his prime and best him, just as you are bested if you choose specific dialogue options in Ending D.

It's safer to say they are superior to the cast, but the gap isn't insurmountable despite the additional power and immortality they gain from becoming a God. They are more akin to superhumans or demigods rather than supreme deities.

They'd be Tier 8-7 like playable characters at their peak, depending on how much you're willing to accept the cast being able to stand up to traces and wound them ever so slightly:

• You can fight the Sylvian trace and survive, right before greeting your New God self.
• You can wound the Gro-goroth trace and survive attacks whilst Nas'hrah is instantly singed.
• You can wound the Rher trace by the end of Termina after everyone else is dead and you've presumably collected their souls.

In all of these instances the trace either lets you go, gets bored, or suggests they could still crush you either way. But standing up to them at all is impressive enough to warrant some form of scaling, even if downscaled from quite heavily.

There is an 8-A calculation for Rher's trace moving, but should one be generous enough Tier 7 could be gathered from scaling to aspects of Vinushka who is nature, the result of the union between Sylvian and Gro-goroth:

"The cycle of destruction and creation is seen in its purest form in nature. Thus it comes as no surprise that the very god of nature, Vinushka is an offspring of the two older gods Gro-goroth and Sylvian. Like the nature of mankind, the nature of Vinushka too can change from fiery raging volcanoes to serene grasslands where a gentle wind lulls one to sleep." Vinushka - Skin Bible

Either that, or New Gods would probably have to sit at "Unknown, at least X" with how weirdly variable they are.

 

[StretchSebe]

The Void is definitely outside of time completely - the period between you sitting on the throne and actually arriving there compared to others could be a period of hundreds of years despite it having only been seconds prior, Sylvian also having created the world and humanity "at the dawn of time" would lend credence to the idea that having emerged from the Void herself it would be exempt from time; it already existed before time existed.

But this isn't actually relevant to New Gods predating Alll-mer, we know the Lizardmen before humanity sat upon the throne and resided within Ma'habre before mankind existed, this is established with the existence of the Chromatic Blights and the Lizardmen statues residing in the prison section of the dungeons. The Kingdom of Rondon more than likely didn't partake in worship of the Lizardmen let alone know what they were, they just took over the dungeons and repurposed them in ignorance of just how deep the rabbit hole went.

Lizardmen were probably using the throne for some time, even in the Grand Hall we see one of the Blights sitting at the table with the others. Humanity likely came along after this and took the throne for themselves, then Alll-mer ascended and decided to wipe the slate clean.

Yep. I mean 'chronologically' in how we as players (and in game mortals) view it.

For example, the Ascended Gods operate outside the greater scheme like the Old Gods. From our view, we only see the 'birth' of the God of F&H in an ending and have a relative time in which Alll-mer ascended despite them definitely affecting the world as retroactively as they do progressively. They would be beyond time at that point, let alone linear time, but we perceive these processes happening in linear time.

It's not that they are lying, wrong, or not describing her accurately, I never said that. It's that they purposefully omit information because telling the whole truth of everything could jeopardize what they are doing. The New Gods aren't anyone's ally just because they serve as a useful lore dump.

You had said prior:

Except that isn't really true, the New Gods more or less go out of their way to not provide you information on a specific subject matter, such as with the Girl:

That and the writing on their answer to the Girl made it seem to me you were saying they were not reliable fra.

The important thing to me though ultimately is that they serve as a useful lore dump. In that regard, I do think that they wouldn't use the term 'eternity' flippantly.

He lets you out of the Void, but everything after that is an assumption. You only hear of the Knights of the Midnight Sun returning after years through a rumor you overhear, it's not indicated to be an instantaneous process, and is why I brought up the Cube of the Depths:

The reason a brought up the Cube of the Depths at all is because it is within your possession, and is the very tool that allowed you to access the past and also return to the present, not that it has any factor within the Void. New Gods can very well release you from the Void and return from it themselves but this is why Le'garde is letting you out - because you cannot leave, you can however still leave Ma'habre and the dungeons which is what the ending says: You left the dungeons. Contrary to all common sense, you made it out alive.

You can say Le'garde brings you back to the present, but I don't think it's necessary or completely useful detail to ruminate on.

I read you going into this as I was almost done writing a response, but I'll keep this part of the response as is anyways cause it is relevant:

Ending C-II goes on to describe his reign, and how he unifies the world. I also find it important to note (with my interpretation of timelines being involved) that it is mentioned 'It's almost as if the gods themselves were on his side. Choosing the right side of the coin at every turn.' He seems to either be in alignment with the greater scheme of things, or able to manipulate or work with it. I could probably add this to the blog the more I think about it, as I refer back to the New Gods being Low 2-A in their prime due to being able to maintain the world during their given reign, even if they aren't able to stop it from gradually decaying due to the absence of the Old Gods.

Important to note: The Cube of the Depths is always used with something else. It is used to open the door as a key, and used to activate the time travel devices. I can't recall any time it is used on it's own. I get what you mean about it being used to leave the dungeons though.

Also, all I said in my first response was that a New God could return you back from The Void. You had mentioned the present, so I was responding to that.

You're fine. I'm quite passionate about the games as I've been playing them for closer to half a year now and while I'm probably a bit protective of how it is represented I'm happy to be able to discuss it with others.

That's good to hear. Always struggle with it even though I do my best to just

It's a bit different than that, drawing from Rher's power is done through the simpler tricks like mind reading and lunar meteorite. Per'kele explains that he followed the moon god wherever he went and used him for bolstering the ranks of the Sulfur Cult. It's easier to harness a trace of an Older God because it is without any actual direction and is stuck in a logic loop. It's a force of nature without the consciousness behind it. Even Nas'hrah is able to exploit God traces:

"Only traces of the older gods remain in this plane of existence. Nas'hrah has been able to bend a powerful being under his will." - Darkness

Didn't know that in 2. Interesting that he was able to figure that out in order to get all the power he did. Also reminded me Nas'hrah's demon thing was from an Old God. Forgot about that.

This is actually a part where our interpretations diverge quite a bit, because I believe we can reasonably take elements from the game to dismiss the timelines idea. Things like D'arce canonically taking the rear when not the playable character due to her wield her sword and shield in contrast to the iron spear you get from her intro should you select that option, or Enki having dialogue that hints towards the fact that he lost to his sister and was then cast away. (This also being justified in him using Needle worm, a Depths skill just as Mastery of insects is).

As I mention in the blog, their backstories can change wildly from playthrough to playthrough due to player input:

The text and changes within The Book of the Forgotten Memories for getting skills you wouldn't have otherwise heavily implies it is taking from other timelines where your character made the alternative choice(s).

As I believe I mention in my blog, the New Gods also refer to the Old Gods saying 'They have not been present in the memories of any of us.' Considering they understand the greater scheme of things, it is an interesting choice of 'memories' to confirm that they left the world. Among the other things I list in the blog changing from playthrough to playthrough, it really seems like these things are 'possibilities' that 'memories' refers to, and that they are just a part of the greater scheme of things than

As said earlier, 2 also establishes that all S rank endings ended up being canon, and so did the A and C ending with caveats. I'm not going to say all the endings couldn't be cannon with one another (they literally are in 2 lol), but I'm interested in those caveats. The clashes between them despite all of them having some truth to them, and considering we could see all of them in 1 indicates to me that there cannot be just one timeline that the greater scheme of things is operating on. For all of these things to simultaneously coincide and clash in differing places that also somewhat conflict with the endings the information comes from in 1 to begin with, some spacetime fuckery has got to be going on. Things we could never see or do in 1 had to happen in order for everything we could see and do in 2 to fall into place like that.

The Coin of Judgement itself has lore presence, as story elements instead point to it being the Gods deciding your fate and changing reality based on your call. The Combat manual in Termina describes "Your fate being left to the higher powers" after detailing its usage. The Prophecy also describes Le'garde unifying the western world rapidly, suggesting that the Gods were always on his side and that he was "choosing the right side of the coin at every turn".

The Yellow King is on the right side of fate at every moment and is making every correct possible choice he could make as a New God, that is how he is achieving everything he has in such a short time. It isn't creating a timeline element.

Also as I go into on the blog, I agree luck seems to be the greater scheme at play. On that note, there's an important word in there too: Fate. I know I already mentioned the Legarde thing earlier, but this consistent tie between luck and alternate possibilities is the grounds for which I believe it is safe to say there's grounds for there being timelines at play.

Mortals view it as fate, or 'luck,' while the ascended beings and gods can view and understand the greater scheme for what it really is. From something so small as the greater scheme determining whether you fall through the floor, or get loot from certain places (like bookshelves), all the way up to New Gods like Legarde seemingly harnessing the greater scheme to explicitly 'choose the right side of the coin every time,' and Old Gods being completely outside it...

All this seriously makes me think that the most easy, fitting, and direct explanation is that the greater scheme of things involves, and is about timelines.

The only place you could possibly consider this is with the Depths, but the only way I see that Ragnvaldr could understand that the Depths is always changing its shape is if it has been witnessed in-universe, so it's not strictly something that changes across timelines but something that changes in a single timeline as well.

Much that changes and happens can be seen by the player. It is possible this is being implied to be happening, but darkness is immaterial, and F&H rarely, if ever goes for tell and not show.

I think everything can be justified within a single, complex timeline personally. But I neither claim to have all the answers.

I think we do have to settle on some explanation of the greater scheme of things, even if it requires a lot of deliberation. We don't have to answer everything, but there is some rhyme and reason we should be able to reference.

 

[StretchSebe]

They'd probably upscale from the main cast by a lot, while the main cast is intended to functionally be normal people despite their tier the New Gods are singlehandedly capable of overthrowing governments, Kaiser did as much.

Although you do have New Gods like Chambara who gets beaten up twice, once in the first game and another time in the second. The cast of the first game is also able to fight Francois in his prime and best him, just as you are bested if you choose specific dialogue options in Ending D.

It's safer to say they are superior to the cast, but the gap isn't insurmountable despite the additional power and immortality they gain from becoming a God. They are more akin to superhumans or demigods rather than supreme deities.

Oh yeah, I don't go into it in the blog, but the stuff with souls seems pretty important for scaling for the verse. They can have special or unique properties, or otherwise very potent/specific effects that are to their benefit, which is the case of many enemies. Looking at you Salmonsnake.

While it is mostly interacted through gameplay, the Girl really sends home how important souls are being a 'pure being' specifically crafted and influenced to become an Ascended God. I can leave that to someone who understands souls better for sure lmao

 

[Abstractions]

That and the writing on their answer to the Girl made it seem to me you were saying they were not reliable fra.

The important thing to me though ultimately is that they serve as a useful lore dump. In that regard, I do think that they wouldn't use the term 'eternity' flippantly.

They can be both reliable and also not on certain things, it's clear as day when they don't want you to know about certain things. We are probably going to have to agree to disagree on the verbiage because I obviously don't believe anything necessitates they speak 100% in a hyper literal fashion.

For example, the Ascended Gods operate outside the greater scheme like the Old Gods. From our view, we only see the 'birth' of the God of F&H in an ending and have a relative time in which Alll-mer ascended despite them definitely affecting the world as retroactively as they do progressively. They would be beyond time at that point, let alone linear time, but we perceive these processes happening in linear time.

Yes, but the very action of Alll-mer wiping the slate clean was one done by the Ascended God physically, they can be beyond time but the very event that occurred had a date and we know it occurred after Year 0, which by that time New Gods were already well aplenty. New Gods were present for millennia and ran Ma'habre well before Alll-mer physically made his ascension because he hadn't even been made yet.

As I mention in the blog, their backstories can change wildly from playthrough to playthrough due to player input:

The text and changes within The Book of the Forgotten Memories for getting skills you wouldn't have otherwise heavily implies it is taking from other timelines where your character made the alternative choice(s).

It delves deep into your ancestry, yes. But going further down this line we learn from the God manifesto that human souls can remerge throughout time:

"A god, like a human soul is not constrained by linear time and space. It can reincarnate multiple times within our history and future history without us knowing any better."

The book is pulling traits from your bloodline but also your soul type, which you were likely born with prior.

As I believe I mention in my blog, the New Gods also refer to the Old Gods saying 'They have not been present in the memories of any of us.' Considering they understand the greater scheme of things, it is an interesting choice of 'memories' to confirm that they left the world.

They are confirming that the Gods left long before either of them had their reign, the Old Gods are rather absentee parents and once they had realized the selfishness of humanity - they wanted nothing to do with it.

As said earlier, 2 also establishes that all S rank endings ended up being canon, and so did the A and C ending with caveats. I'm not going to say all the endings couldn't be cannon with one another (they literally are in 2 lol), but I'm interested in those caveats.

Whether or not Cahara's is actually canon is rather up in the air, but yes most endings are canon.

The clashes between them despite all of them having some truth to them, and considering we could see all of them in 1 indicates to me that there cannot be just one timeline that the greater scheme of things is operating on. For all of these things to simultaneously coincide and clash in differing places that also somewhat conflict with the endings the information comes from in 1 to begin with, some spacetime fuckery has got to be going on. Things we could never see or do in 1 had to happen in order for everything we could see and do in 2 to fall into place like that.

A lot of people have worked to make sense of the order of events that transpired, but to my knowledge the multiple timelines theory isn't really suggested by many people. Time is messy in Ma'habre and the New Gods confirm as much as that - time and space aren't the same there.

Things like Rag and Enki likely partaking on the same journey and D'arce getting lost in Ma'habre collecting the pages to resurrect Le'garde, Cahara may have been the one to bring the Girl down or he may have left and got his "happy ending" and been compelled to come back somehow, or he never did come back. We don't know because he's the one we never get any info on.

It's just the nature of the game. We've mentally been in the same places but we still come to different conclusions due to the vague nature of things.

Mortals view it as fate, or 'luck,' while the ascended beings and gods can view and understand the greater scheme for what it really is. From something so small as the greater scheme determining whether you fall through the floor, or get loot from certain places (like bookshelves), all the way up to New Gods like Legarde seemingly harnessing the greater scheme to explicitly 'choose the right side of the coin every time,' and Old Gods being completely outside it...

All this seriously makes me think that the most easy, fitting, and direct explanation is that the greater scheme of things involves, and is about timelines.

Even O'saa explains to you that magic operates on the manipulation of fate to your whims, and creating little tricks in reality with unconditional belief in one's actions. It's likely that the Yellow King has the massive ego that allows him to do this, or likely that the Gods are in fact playing to his favor and altering reality to his call. This would justify why we see loot one time and nothing the next, reality changes as your fate is decided.

Much that changes and happens can be seen by the player. It is possible this is being implied to be happening, but darkness is immaterial, and F&H rarely, if ever goes for tell and not show.

Of course, but when I say this it's clear that the only way to have documented this information was to have had it witnessed physically prior. Depths very well may change across playthroughs/timelines but I understand that it could also be explained as something that happens in the universe they reside in and not an alternative one.

I think we do have to settle on some explanation of the greater scheme of things, even if it requires a lot of deliberation. We don't have to answer everything, but there is some rhyme and reason we should be able to reference.

I more or less understand the greater scheme to be fate on the grander scale; your soul predetermines some aspects of your character, magic is the enacting of the greater scheme with it being dubbed "fate", the coin manifests whether it be destiny you find something important or live/die, etc.

There's probably some form of philosophy that aptly describes it, but to that I'm not fully aware.

While it is mostly interacted through gameplay, the Girl really sends home how important souls are being a 'pure being' specifically crafted and influenced to become an Ascended God. I can leave that to someone who understands souls better for sure lmao

Not only this, but it is understood that for something new to sprout, something old must die: GoFaH mantled Depths and won the power struggle and emerged a deity emblematic in design to that of the doll she was gifted, an effigy to the kindness she was paid that she returns to you by providing you a painless death.

In Termina, it is Vinushka who is dying and being used as fuel for Logic, just as industry and technology are consuming nature.

It is likely the Sun God that had to die in order for Alll-mer himself to ascend, going by this line of thinking.

 

[StretchSebe]

They can be both reliable and also not on certain things, it's clear as day when they don't want you to know about certain things. We are probably going to have to agree to disagree on the verbiage because I obviously don't believe anything necessitates they speak 100% in a hyper literal fashion.

Yes, but they are a reliable source of lore dump. And I don't really see why they would exaggerate about the length of time any single one of them would have taken searching The Void if they all devote entire cycles to their reign and/or main pursuit anyways.

Yes, but the very action of Alll-mer wiping the slate clean was one done by the Ascended God physically, they can be beyond time but the very event that occurred had a date and we know it occurred after Year 0, which by that time New Gods were already well aplenty. New Gods were present for millennia and ran Ma'habre well before Alll-mer physically made his ascension because he hadn't even been made yet.

It is beyond our conception of linearity. I think we both agree that the lore is perceived linearly. Where we disagree is in the implications that has in the world.

One complex timeline allows for some of the wild things involving time like the time travel, and The Void, but it is most of the things outside of that that makes me believe there's more to it that we just can't see or experience all at once. A side of the coin we can only see or get on single playthroughs even though we know there are two. Being able to see or experience more of these things across playthroughs if you will. Timelines.

I think all the possibilities that exist within the game - from choices the player can make to fate/luck - are all examples of the branching timelines constituting the whole that is called 'the greater scheme of things' in verse. Ascension itself is tied to understanding it, the fate/luck stuff, and from the Book of enlightenment described as seeing everything from a higher perspective, saying "You feel a perspective shift in your surroundings. As if everything was to shrink, or perhaps you were to ascend higher." A lot of subsequent points you make I feel can be better explained by the involvement of timelines than just a singular timeline:

It delves deep into your ancestry, yes. But going further down this line we learn from the God manifesto that human souls can remerge throughout time:

"A god, like a human soul is not constrained by linear time and space. It can reincarnate multiple times within our history and future history without us knowing any better."

The book is pulling traits from your bloodline but also your soul type, which you were likely born with prior.

This first is one that I admit can be explained by a single timeline. I also admit to not being that knowledgeable on the stuff about souls in F&H, but the important part of the quote is that the souls are 'not constrained by linear time and space.'

The skills a mc can gain from the book are from the choices of other versions of their backstory. It is true that 'ancestry' is mentioned and likely involved in some way due to their souls, but the skills aren't unique, or otherwise unlearnable from choices in backstory. The book allows a character to learn these missing skills in their current skill tree from other possible backstories. I grant this is possible in a single complex timeline, but then we go onto this:

They are confirming that the Gods left long before either of them had their reign, the Old Gods are rather absentee parents and once they had realized the selfishness of humanity - they wanted nothing to do with it.


Whether or not Cahara's is actually canon is rather up in the air, but yes most endings are canon.

A lot of people have worked to make sense of the order of events that transpired, but to my knowledge the multiple timelines theory isn't really suggested by many people. Time is messy in Ma'habre and the New Gods confirm as much as that - time and space aren't the same there.

Things like Rag and Enki likely partaking on the same journey and D'arce getting lost in Ma'habre collecting the pages to resurrect Le'garde, Cahara may have been the one to bring the Girl down or he may have left and got his "happy ending" and been compelled to come back somehow, or he never did come back. We don't know because he's the one we never get any info on.

It's just the nature of the game. We've mentally been in the same places but we still come to different conclusions due to the vague nature of things.

I don't deny it is vague and designed for multiple interpretations, but there are absolutely conflicts in the details taken from the endings that are recognized regardless of interpretation.

Having details taken from various endings itself doesn't require there to be multiple timelines on its own too. Though the biggest point of contention seems to be Le'garde. He is a new god in 2 despite Enki's S ending, and D'arce's S ending of reviving him not seeming to have taken place. It is possible that Cahara helped him escape while also abandoning him to take the Girl to the heart of darkness, or D'arce... But Le'garde would be consistently, already dead for all S endings. And casting rot on him also makes him look similar to his revived state in D'arce's ending despite not seeming to have happened.

Even the details used makes it confusing if they all happened on one timeline if he was already dead when all 4 got there, and otherwise conflicts with the details we do know are canon.

With regard to the mess that is the details on how all of this works, I think it could be explained easily by the greater scheme of things having branching timelines in which things happen rather certainly as 'fate,' and that the single complex timeline is the 'canon' we interact with that is largely influenced by these other potential fates.

Such is why we see all these details taken from endings, even when a number of the details conflict and make it dubious that it could all happen on one timeline. It would make so much more sense if the details were due to influence, and not due to all the endings happening together.

In a more simple example, this is also why we can choose character choices in their backstories to begin with specific skills in the first game.

Even O'saa explains to you that magic operates on the manipulation of fate to your whims, and creating little tricks in reality with unconditional belief in one's actions. It's likely that the Yellow King has the massive ego that allows him to do this, or likely that the Gods are in fact playing to his favor and altering reality to his call. This would justify why we see loot one time and nothing the next, reality changes as your fate is decided.

As a god who gained understanding of the greater scheme of things, and power from ascension (even if not on the level of ascended/old gods), Le'garde does seem to determine his own fate after ascension. And as you say here with fate being malleable/manipulatable, we see fate (luck) being pre-determined in the case of loot and whether we get it or not, but being different from playthrough to playthrough both in getting loot, and the loot we get.

Even the multiple possible choices in plenty of scenario being different 'fates' on their own aside, what is outside the players control is possible fates.

Of course, but when I say this it's clear that the only way to have documented this information was to have had it witnessed physically prior. Depths very well may change across playthroughs/timelines but I understand that it could also be explained as something that happens in the universe they reside in and not an alternative one.

If it were to change in one playthrough, we would probably be able to see the layout of a level to change to one of the alternatives we know is possible because we had seen (or documented) it in other playthroughs.

In fairness, that'd probably be difficult to properly implement into the game, but we as players are able to witness it physically prior to the characters, and remember layouts. Such is the only way a player can even consistently get to Le'garde while he would still be alive. Besides luck. I think it is another example of there being multiple possibilities that we can overserve from one possible timeline to another.

I more or less understand the greater scheme to be fate on the grander scale; your soul predetermines some aspects of your character, magic is the enacting of the greater scheme with it being dubbed "fate", the coin manifests whether it be destiny you find something important or live/die, etc.

There's probably some form of philosophy that aptly describes it, but to that I'm not fully aware.

Fate on a 'grander scale' would necessarily be including possible fates. Potential occurrences that can happen that do or don't. I think there would be much philosophy it would require other than using Occam's Razor, and ascribing these possible fates as timelines within a broader multiverse (the greater scheme of things).

Not only this, but it is understood that for something new to sprout, something old must die: GoFaH mantled Depths and won the power struggle and emerged a deity emblematic in design to that of the doll she was gifted, an effigy to the kindness she was paid that she returns to you by providing you a painless death.

I think the Girl best encompasses these potential fates/timelines. My first time getting Ending A, I didn't get the doll. Didn't even realize the knife could be for her in the backyard. She turns into the doll-like forms anyways. How she settles on that; I can only assume through the power she was obtaining that was beyond the greater scheme, and seeing that the character(s) who brought her down there could have given her these gifts.

Similarly, though Cahara is often the one theorized to have done so due to his lack of S ending details used and skills as a mercenary, how she got out of the cage, stabs the hearts, and gets down to the heart of darkness is left vague, let alone whether she got the doll and knife or not. The events required for her to become the God of F&H are so specific, so dependent on external intervention and knowledge of or from the greater scheme of things (for players, playthroughs), and - as you mention with the lore - set up from Nilvan for this unlikely fate that it seems such a fate actually being fulfilled was slim to none, let alone if there was only one complex timeline for it to potentially take place within. But for a being on par with the old gods, it wouldn't matter how unlikely. They would only need the one timeline to go just right to then go beyond the greater scheme of things, and affect the rest of the timelines within it.

The greater scheme houses these fates we can see and experience in game from playthrough to playthrough, even if only one is settled on and observable for the canon linearly.

In Termina, it is Vinushka who is dying and being used as fuel for Logic, just as industry and technology are consuming nature.

It is likely the Sun God that had to die in order for Alll-mer himself to ascend, going by this line of thinking.

All that aside, it is interesting to learn how they expanded on the stuff about old god traces in the second game. There's a lot in game we'd need to cover too when it comes to magic and souls (among other unmentioned things).

 

[Abstractions]

This first is one that I admit can be explained by a single timeline. I also admit to not being that knowledgeable on the stuff about souls in F&H, but the important part of the quote is that the souls are 'not constrained by linear time and space.'

The line follows up with "It can reincarnate within our history or future history without us knowing any better.", this is not indicative of any separation from the timeline but that they do not travel linearly, they can be in the past, present, or future.

Having details taken from various endings itself doesn't require there to be multiple timelines on its own too. Though the biggest point of contention seems to be Le'garde. He is a new god in 2 despite Enki's S ending, and D'arce's S ending of reviving him not seeming to have taken place. It is possible that Cahara helped him escape while also abandoning him to take the Girl to the heart of darkness, or D'arce... But Le'garde would be consistently, already dead for all S endings. And casting rot on him also makes him look similar to his revived state in D'arce's ending despite not seeming to have happened.

Le'garde being a New God wouldn't have to conflict with Enki's S ending, Enki rejected godhood and walked the path of enlightenment rather than starting any sort of new cycle, leaving the throne open for someone else to do so.

Le'garde possesses motifs only seen on him as the Yellow King, such as the asterisk and the snake, however you did mention Rot paying a nod to D'arce's S ending: one could conclude that Le'garde was probably resurrected and eventually decided to sit on the throne anyway as he had planned to.

Ragnvaldr also obviously lives, provided he had another family post-dungeon, and Moonless has Black steel of the East in her back, meaning the Eastern sword had to have been taken. Ragnvaldr could have left prior to Le'garde's resurrection after assisting in killing everything.

I personally don't find Le'garde to be the problem in regards to the timeline stuff, like I said it's only really the Depths point that I mainly see the potential in.

In a more simple example, this is also why we can choose character choices in their backstories to begin with specific skills in the first game.

Sure, but as I said before we can understand that characters still have largely canon choices that we can extrapolate from dialogue or just looking at their skill tree:

• Cahara steals from your inventory not only in the overworld before he can be permanently recruited, but also during actual combat.
• Ragnvaldr has his bow in combat and when he joins you.
• D'arce will have both her skill options, and the long sword with eagle crest shield.
• Enki actually has skills from a skipped introduction, be we can infer the use of Depths skills being that he accepted his defeat and became a bug boy.

It's stuff like this that could make it reasonable to assume just specific choices are canon, rather than all of it being canon with it just being a different timeline.

we see fate (luck) being pre-determined in the case of loot and whether we get it or not, but being different from playthrough to playthrough both in getting loot, and the loot we get.

I think this could more or less be understood as reality changing as your fate is decided, Gods have control over matter, time, and space as we understand it. Changing what a chest contains wouldn't matter much when Alll-mer can bless you with nearly anything through an Empty scroll.

If it were to change in one playthrough, we would probably be able to see the layout of a level to change to one of the alternatives we know is possible because we had seen (or documented) it in other playthroughs.

It's not about it having to be physically shown to us by the layout changing during a single playthrough, it's just information we can assume is gathered within a singular timeline as the people who do explain this to you would have had to have witnessed it or told by someone who did, who likely wasn't from another timeline.

In fairness, that'd probably be difficult to properly implement into the game, but we as players are able to witness it physically prior to the characters, and remember layouts. Such is the only way a player can even consistently get to Le'garde while he would still be alive.

That, or just taking Dash. Let's be honest, who doesn't find that the most preferable option?

I think the Girl best encompasses these potential fates/timelines. My first time getting Ending A, I didn't get the doll. Didn't even realize the knife could be for her in the backyard. She turns into the doll-like forms anyways. How she settles on that; I can only assume through the power she was obtaining that was beyond the greater scheme, and seeing that the character(s) who brought her down there could have given her these gifts.

I've heard ideas that she first attempts to mimic Alll-mer in representing a shape that is more perfect, and that the ones that follow are a power struggle between herself and the Depths for taking control, similar to Alll-mer when he cast out his sub-conscious during his ascension. She only then triumphs when clinging on to the only kindness she would have experienced and her form represented that.

You could say the timelines thing there, but I think it's pretty clear the doll is there as a set piece for that express purpose. It's intended that she has it and that's why her form takes that shape, I would ascribe any other higher meaning to it personally.

The events required for her to become the God of F&H are so specific, so dependent on external intervention and knowledge of or from the greater scheme of things (for players, playthroughs), and - as you mention with the lore - set up from Nilvan for this unlikely fate that it seems such a fate actually being fulfilled was slim to none, let alone if there was only one complex timeline for it to potentially take place within.

If New Gods are well and capable of understanding the greater scheme they'd understand how to twist fate to their favor, which is likely what they did, whether it may have been unlikely or not to occur isn't completely relevant when you're pulling the strings to make it happen.

All that aside, it is interesting to learn how they expanded on the stuff about old god traces in the second game. There's a lot in game we'd need to cover too when it comes to magic and souls (among other unmentioned things).

I'll probably be including that in my write-up.

 

[StretchSebe]

The line follows up with "It can reincarnate within our history or future history without us knowing any better.", this is not indicative of any separation from the timeline but that they do not travel linearly, they can be in the past, present, or future.

Yeah, I grant that this is possible on a single complex timeline. Is a good example of the baseline spacetime shenanigans the game has.

Le'garde being a New God wouldn't have to conflict with Enki's S ending, Enki rejected godhood and walked the path of enlightenment rather than starting any sort of new cycle, leaving the throne open for someone else to do so.

Le'garde possesses motifs only seen on him as the Yellow King, such as the asterisk and the snake, however you did mention Rot paying a nod to D'arce's S ending: one could conclude that Le'garde was probably resurrected and eventually decided to sit on the throne anyway as he had planned to.

The conflict is that he is already dead in all the S rank endings, and doesn't seem resurected in 2.

Le'garde only looks the way he does in D'arce's S ending if rot is cast on him. It stands to reason if he was actually resurrected, he would initially look like he does rotted in 2, or how he did in her S ending, not the way he actually does simply being the Yellow King.

The detail of him ascending must 'derive' from a C ending.

Ragnvaldr also obviously lives, provided he had another family post-dungeon, and Moonless has Black steel of the East in her back, meaning the Eastern sword had to have been taken. Ragnvaldr could have left prior to Le'garde's resurrection after assisting in killing everything.

I personally don't find Le'garde to be the problem in regards to the timeline stuff, like I said it's only really the Depths point that I mainly see the potential in.

Given multiple timelines and said timelines affecting the 'main' timeline (the canon one), I don't think it's particularly problematic either. I view it as more easily explained by a main timeline (fate) being influenced by the other potential timelines (fate on a grander scale; the greater scheme of things).

Sure, but as I said before we can understand that characters still have largely canon choices that we can extrapolate from dialogue or just looking at their skill tree:

• Cahara steals from your inventory not only in the overworld before he can be permanently recruited, but also during actual combat.
• Ragnvaldr has his bow in combat and when he joins you.
• D'arce will have both her skill options, and the long sword with eagle crest shield.
• Enki actually has skills from a skipped introduction, be we can infer the use of Depths skills being that he accepted his defeat and became a bug boy.

It's stuff like this that could make it reasonable to assume just specific choices are canon, rather than all of it being canon with it just being a different timeline.

That is a fair point that they have canon skills.

Still, the ability for characters to start a run with skills completely different from their 'canon,' or 'main timeline' skills at all, and in any playthrough ranging from F to S endings makes me think that yes: The game and world is accepting that they could have chosen a different fate, and consequently entered the dungeons with different skills from what the greater scheme's main fate would entail.

I think this could more or less be understood as reality changing as your fate is decided, Gods have control over matter, time, and space as we understand it. Changing what a chest contains wouldn't matter much when Alll-mer can bless you with nearly anything through an Empty scroll.

This is the most baseline example of fate and alternate fates at play.

As we've established, the analogy mortals seem to use is 'sides of a coin.' Getting one side doesn't mean the other side of the coin ceases to exist or be relevant, let alone when loot itself can also be analogized to being a dice roll in terms of what you get; namely whatever the hell could be in chests, or the difference between getting a book of fears and an empty scroll.

If anything, Empty scrolls are a prime example of this. Because through the power of an ascended god, you are being allowed to choose loot; in a way, choose the side of the coin, and what number the dice will roll on without fail.

It's not about it having to be physically shown to us by the layout changing during a single playthrough, it's just information we can assume is gathered within a singular timeline as the people who do explain this to you would have had to have witnessed it or told by someone who did, who likely wasn't from another timeline.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah but we the players are the ones who witness the layout change across different playthroughs and I'm not saying the player is recognized in verse or some entity in verse or anything but that it is incredibly similar to a game like Undertale where all these differing possibilities, choices, and outcomes (and even random occurrences due to Fun values in that game) are all considered alternate timelines even if there is a canon ending (True Pacifist) and potentially a canon series of smaller details (idk about canon Undertale items/details but in F&H loot like doll and probably knife and skills for mc's), so especially as players witnessing this stuff outside the confines of the game's world and when the space of the game is changing in accordance with playthrough (timeline) and it is recognized in verse as a force (darkness) from an entity beyond the greater scheme of things (The God of the Depths) it just seems like they're talking about a multiverse in archaic language at that point and that these playthroughs are showing differing possibilities and timelines

That, or just taking Dash. Let's be honest, who doesn't find that the most preferable option?

Oh of course, but you'd still need to know what to do and where to go with Dash even if it is a top tier skill lol

I've heard ideas that she first attempts to mimic Alll-mer in representing a shape that is more perfect, and that the ones that follow are a power struggle between herself and the Depths for taking control, similar to Alll-mer when he cast out his sub-conscious during his ascension. She only then triumphs when clinging on to the only kindness she would have experienced and her form represented that.

Interesting theory on it. Does at least provide a context for all the forms she cycles through, as well as more about soul stuff.

You could say the timelines thing there, but I think it's pretty clear the doll is there as a set piece for that express purpose. It's intended that she has it and that's why her form takes that shape, I would ascribe any other higher meaning to it personally.


If New Gods are well and capable of understanding the greater scheme they'd understand how to twist fate to their favor, which is likely what they did, whether it may have been unlikely or not to occur isn't completely relevant when you're pulling the strings to make it happen.

This is what I mean. It isn't about higher meaning, just about possibilities. The New Gods having both the knowledge and power far beyond mortals within the greater scheme of things is an important part of the general hierarchy (Nilvan setting up the conditions for the birth of the God of F&H, Le'garde always being on the right side of the coin, etc.), and is why the Old Gods being beyond it and having concepts that only seem to be meaningfully challenged or superseded by ascended gods really sends home their superiority to it all. I believe qualitatively so, but even if that isn't something we can agree on, their origin in The Void and departure from their home and the world at bare minimum suggest they are operating outside the spacetime of the world.

I'll probably be including that in my write-up.

Yeah, I feel that figuring out the exact details of the magic and souls system is outside of my lane. I am comfortable about how I've pieced together the 'structure' of the verse, and how coin flips among other things point to alternate possibilities/timelines, but more minute stuff is where I personally struggle the most.

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

scared and hungry

 

[Rikimarox2]

Barely remember the lore, as I was mostly focused on trying to God damn survive in the game and my memory is foggy, but:

For nashrah, doesn't he kind of obliterate us in the early game (and the fact he one shots you if you try to do the ding dong with him), meanwhile he gets destroyed by Gro-goroth in the late game? Would this at least entail Accelerated Development for the main cast, or is there some lore shenanigans that I forgot about?

Additionally, are we assuming the coin flip is a game mechanic or not, considering there isn't really a mention of it in the main game? I haven't played Termina yet, but iirc, I asked the dev a question about the coin flip mechanic before Termina was fully complete, and he said "I guess you could say it's game mechanic because there isn't any lore in the game mentioning it." as well as some other things.

Also, Enki is the best Mc.

Edit: Ignore the coin part, it seems Termina did indeed add lore to it.

 

[StretchSebe]

For nashrah, doesn't he kind of obliterate us in the early game (and the fact he one shots you if you try to do the ding dong with him), meanwhile he gets destroyed by Gro-goroth in the late game? Would this at least entail Accelerated Development for the main cast, or is there some lore shenanigans that I forgot about?

Souls make scaling pretty wacky. The main cast and most recruitable members have pretty important souls that probably explain why or how they are able to potentially fight and defeat enemies that should be leaps above the weight class of a human.

Directly from the wiki.gg in their guide on getting Ending A, Cahara has the Endless soul, Enki has the soul of the Enlightened, and Ragnvaldr has the Tormented soul for examples. The Girl also has the 'Ancient One' soul (described as the soul of an 'older god') which is why she becomes an Ascended God in ending A. These souls are associated with pre-existing new gods, and the player is supposed to get them by defeating said new gods. Alternatively, you can also have these party members die and take these souls in order to skip those boss fights if you're MC is D'arce lol. Besides in game effects, there is great importance put on souls in lore.

This is yet another aspect that strongly suggests to me that the game operates on a multiverse. As established by Abstractions, souls are already non-linear in space and time. In game, we see these souls traveling to and from the past and present, and existing in the same time in multiples. They can do so in a number of arrangements, use these souls for various purposes beyond that, and the timeline doesn't seem to suffer any paradoxes or issues despite what should be spacetime violations.

Additionally, are we assuming the coin flip is a game mechanic or not, considering there isn't really a mention of it in the main game? I haven't played Termina yet, but iirc, I asked the dev a question about the coin flip mechanic before Termina was fully complete, and he said "I guess you could say it's game mechanic because there isn't any lore in the game mentioning it." as well as some other things.

Also, Enki is the best Mc.

Edit: Ignore the coin part, it seems Termina did indeed add lore to it.

Termina added lore (I should maybe add some termina stuff to the blog), but basically the coin flip represents the alternate possibilities as detailed in the blog and in this thread. There are a few lines even in the first game suggesting that the coin represents 'fate' within the greater scheme of things, and that mortals perceive it as this kind of luck. On that; both sides of the coin exist regardless of which side a mortal gets, and is affected by. In this regard, the coin represents the points at which timelines can branch, a great example being when it comes to coin flips that decide whether you instantly die or not.

 

[Tyranno223]

Le'garde possesses motifs only seen on him as the Yellow King, such as the asterisk and the snake, however you did mention Rot paying a nod to D'arce's S ending: one could conclude that Le'garde was probably resurrected and eventually decided to sit on the throne anyway as he had planned to.

It could also mean that the Kaiser we saw/fought was actually just a (super) blood golem, as Nashrah outright says he survived through some kind of blood ritual.

 

[Tyranno223]

Some stuff worth noting, but it appears the Yellow King is substantially superior to the other New Gods in some way, at least according to Nosramus' implications (around 6:10 onwards)

Heck, he might not even technically be a New God if he really did "become something greater".

 

[StretchSebe]

Some stuff worth noting, but it appears the Yellow King is substantially superior to the other New Gods in some way, at least according to Nosramus' implications (around 6:10 onwards)

Heck, he might not even technically be a New God if he really did "become something greater".

This is true. Even in Fear and Hunger 1 there is dialogue about how he would be 'different' and notably above average. Whether or not he did become something greater doesn't seem to reach true Ascended God level, but I'd definitely agree in tiering him higher than other new gods.

Also been meaning to say that I didn't mean to monopolize the thread with the talk of the greater scheme of things and all. I really did intend this thread to be grounds for which we work on the verse and character pages! In that regard, we could probably at least start from the bottom tiers. I can start making a verse page draft if that'd be alright with everyone, and even work a little on lower tier characters/enemies (like Cavedwellers and Guard).

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

So, how do we deal with, basically every enemy's explicit parts?