Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

[pineappleman]

This could contain quite literally anything. All of the cabinets are individually labeled.

the 'invidual labels' in question:

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Proof?

How does this refute my claims?

 

[Deagonx]

Timeline 4 and 6 are different timelines. Each of these timelines share the same history up to the Goku Black arc. Each of their individual histories are linked with 3 other timelines. One of Future Trunks, one of Cell, and one where the Future Trunks from Cell's timeline went the first time around.
They cannot share these 3 timelines inbetween eachother, they both individually have 3 timelines linked to one another.

Why wouldn't they be able to share those 3 timelines? The split occurs after the Cell Saga, we have no reason to believe it would result in copies.

 

[pineappleman]

?

How does this refute my claims?

Were you not implying that Whis transported Trunks and Mai into the past of their original world, without causing another timeline shift?

Why wouldn't they be able to share those 3 timelines? The split occurs after the Cell Saga, we have no reason to believe it would result in copies.

Because the past doesn't just stop existing unaccounted for after a timeline split. The present has to build itself around the past, and not the opposite.
in simple terms, two cells are needed for two timelines that both need them.

 

[Deagonx]

Because the past doesn't just stop existing unaccounted for after a timeline split. The present has to build itself around the past, and not the opposite.
in simple terms, two cells are needed for two timelines that both need them.

These timelines are branches, they can share a history and only separate when their two histories become irreconcilable. There's no necessity for "copy" timelines here, and there's no information in-verse that says any such mechanism exists.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

?

Yes, the main history split in two. As in, its other halve is our timeline.

Were you not implying that Whis transported Trunks and Mai into the past of their original world, without causing another timeline shift?

Rewriting history creates a parallel world.

 

[pineappleman]

Yes, the main history split in two. As in, its other halve is our timeline.

Rewriting history creates a parallel world.

Weren't you the one that said it wasn't split in two, and that it was one and the same?
And yes, we're on agreement on that second point.

These timelines are branches, they can share a history and only separate when their two histories become irreconcilable.

Did you forget about Whis going back in time with Trunks and Mai before the timeline shift would occur? Copy timelines are an absolute necessity, and are purely logical with how history works. If this particular subject is all that's left in our argument, I think this is a good spot to finish off and let the rest of the moderators cast their votes.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Weren't you the one that said it wasn't split in two, and that it was one and the same?

Whoops. I read it as "timeline where Beerus didn't erase Zamasu" and "Zamasu steals Goku's body".

 

[Deagonx]

Did you forget about Whis going back in time with Trunks and Mai before the timeline shift would occur?

He went before the shift created by Goku Black, but then he changed the timeline himself, by indicating that he was going to make sure that timelines' Beerus took care of Zamasu, thus creating a timeline to replace the one Zeno destroyed, which is why all six timelines are accounted for.

Copy timelines are an absolute necessity, and are purely logical with how history works

No, they aren't, as I explained the timelines can have a shared history, and they are not "logical" because time travel is a purely fictional concept and only follows the rules the author creates.

There is no evidence of copy timelines. There is evidence against copy timelines. It's that simple.

 

[pineappleman]

No, they aren't, as I explained the timelines can have a shared history, and they are not "logical" because time travel is a purely fictional concept and only follows the rules the author creates.

There is no evidence of copy timelines. There is evidence against copy timelines. It's that simple.

..Based on the timelines you yourself provided the 'canon' timeline in itself was created by Cell, who's involvement created the history that spawned off the 'canon' Future Trunks timeline. You're the one here arguing that this wouldn't occur for Goku Black for some reason, the series doesn't have to bend itself to your logic when it comes to evidence.

 

[Spinoirr]

Posting this here because this video is relevant

 

[Deagonx]

..Based on the timelines you yourself provided the 'canon' timeline in itself was created by Cell, who's involvement created the history that spawned off the 'canon' Future Trunks timeline. You're the one here arguing that this wouldn't occur for Goku Black for some reason, the series doesn't have to bend itself to your logic when it comes to evidence.

I don't follow the argument you're making, please be more specific. What am I saying wouldn't occur for Goku black?

 

[Vietthai96]

iirc, isn't Trunks travelling to the past in Z isn't literal past of his own timeline, but actually the past of different timeline???

 

[omegabronic]

iirc, isn't Trunks travelling to the past in Z isn't literal past of his own timeline, but actually the past of different timeline???

wasn't it only a different timeline because he time traveled? that is what the original translation that null provided implies anyway

 

[Deagonx]

wasn't it only a different timeline because he time traveled? that is what the original translation that null provided implies anyway

New timelines only occur when two things happen in tandem.

1) Someone travels to the past

2) They create a paradox in doing so.

Logically any interaction with the past is a paradox but Dragon Ball treats this more casually. Future Trunks warning them about Goku Black didn't result in a "paradox" until it causes Beerus to kill Zamasu.

 

[Kroneii1]

iirc, isn't Trunks travelling to the past in Z isn't literal past of his own timeline, but actually the past of different timeline???

Yes, I remember Bulma mentioned that the time machine travels to parallel worlds.

 

[RedReaper]

Posting this here because this video is relevant

No wonder why it’s so difficult to parse this out—It’s literally because it’s not internally consistent.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

No wonder why it’s so difficult to parse this out—It’s literally because it’s not internally consistent.

DB inconsistent? Naaaaah

 

[TiltedFN]

This is getting wildly off topic, even though I prefer to leave them as separate timelines, composite cosmology for the living realm, afterlife, kaioshin realm, and pretty much everything we saw in toei is staying. Suguroku space is whatever, but if it stays or goes, so be it. So now we need to reach a solid conclusion.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I feel like this would actually help our argument enormously. The DBS anime and BOG movie are different entities, so if GT happens after BOG rather than DBS, the contradictions brought on by DBS are irrelevant. And with the statements of the movies being different dimensions from the manga at least, that would mean...

-The movies are canon to the manga as parallel worlds through Toriyama's statement about them taking place in different dimensions.

-The movies are canon to the Toeiverse since GT happens after BOG (not DBS, since there are contradictions against GT happening after, just BOG movie).

Shouldn't this be a clear Manga-Toeiverse link? The GT timeline is a parallel timeline to the manga since it's the same timeline as the Battle of Gods movie, which takes place in a parallel timeline from the manga via Toriyama's statement about the movies.

Just wanted to repost this argument since I never got a response first time around. Would this not prove a Manga-Toeiverse link?

 

[omegabronic]

This is getting wildly off topic, even though I prefer to leave them as separate timelines, composite cosmology for the living realm, afterlife, kaioshin realm, and pretty much everything we saw in toei is staying.

not so fast, we do not have enough voting to decide that yet, and even, what will stay composite will possibly be up to debate as well considering what the staff who voted for it were arguing

 

[omegabronic]

Just wanted to repost this argument since I never got a response first time around. Would this not prove a Manga-Toeiverse link?

there are arguments contesting both of those points made along the thread as well, at this point i would very much prefer everyone to stop talking and let the staff evaluate on the summary instead of creating even more pages

 

[Nullflowerblush]

-The movies are canon to the manga as parallel worlds through Toriyama's statement about them taking place in different dimensions.

What is your personal stance on Dragon Ball’s theatrical films, Sensei?
"I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them."

-The movies are canon to the Toeiverse since GT happens after BOG (not DBS, since there are contradictions against GT happening after, just BOG movie).

How is one film, lending itself to the continuity of (count 'em!) zero previous films, being connected to GT* proof of all previous films being canon?

Asterisk, because the press release reads:

アニメーションシリーズの「Ｚ」と「ＧＴ」の間、つまり、原作517話で魔人ブウとの戦いが終わった後、518話までの空白の10年の間に起こったエピソードが初めて描かれる。

---

For the first time, the film depicts the episodes that took place between "Z" and "GT" in the animation series, that is, the 10-year gap between the end of the battle with Majin Buu in episode 517 of the original story and episode 518.

And, for the curious, the final episode of the Dragon Ball Z anime is episode 291.

Besides, according to the timeline presented at the Tenkaichi Budōsai, as the entire thread knows, GT takes place after Super, rather than the film, no?

Shouldn't this be a clear Manga-Toeiverse link? The GT timeline is a parallel timeline to the manga since it's the same timeline as the Battle of Gods movie, which takes place in a parallel timeline from the manga via Toriyama's statement about the movies.

Toriyama never said that.
Toriyama said:

For this film, while leaving the atmosphere of the original intact, we’ve added just a little bit of modern flavor, so I think it will be an enjoyable piece of entertainment, just like old times!

After first deciding on Beerus’s character design and background, I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued.

The fact is, I thought, “Man, I really made everyone old in the last chapter of the manga”. I even gave Vegeta a mustache (laughs). So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength. A few years after the “Majin Boo arc”, and before Pan’s birth.

When I decided, “For this movie, let’s go with the whole cast!” I thought, “What era would be best?” If it’s a few years after the “Majin Boo arc”, then almost all the cast members are at MAX strength…. And also, you know, in the final chapter, where Oob appears, I made [characters like] Bulma and Kuririn pretty old, so honestly, I thought, “Maaaybe it’s a biiit difficult” [to make the time period any later]. (laughs)

The serialization (in Weekly Shōnen Jump) was quite a while ago, so there were quite a few parts I’d forgotten, but as I flipped through the pages of my own manga that I hardly ever read, I was immediately able to get back its feeling, as you’d expect of the original creator.

But the above press release works, too.

 

[pineappleman]

How is one film, lending itself to the continuity of (count 'em!) zero previous films, being connected to GT* proof of all previous films being canon?

Asterisk, because the press release reads:

And, for the curious, the final episode of the Dragon Ball Z anime is episode 291.

Besides, according to the timeline presented at the Tenkaichi Budōsai, as the entire thread knows, GT takes place after Super, rather than the film, no?

Toriyama never said that.
Toriyama said:





But the above press release works, too.

What is your personal stance on Dragon Ball’s theatrical films, Sensei?
"I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them."

Him being an audience member for the movies doesn't contradict them being from a different dimension to the main story of the comic or canon to the overarching series in his view as the author.
Hell, one of these theatrical films that he was a mere audience member for ended up being added directly to the canon:

Zero previous films being connected to GT is wrong, seeing as GT is tied directly to four movies (Deadzone, Cooler's Revenge, Fusion Reborn, Wrath of the Dragon) with these movies themselves being tied to a great number of the other films.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Zero previous films being connected to GT is wrong

Connected to Battle of Gods.

Him being an audience member for the movies

Did you just ignore everything else?
Can I do that, too, from now on?

 

[pineappleman]

Connected to Battle of Gods.

Did you just ignore everything else?
Can I do that, too, from now on?

If you feel like I've ignored something, feel free to point it out

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If you feel like I've ignored something, feel free to point it out

What is your personal stance on Dragon Ball’s theatrical films, Sensei?
"I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”.

 

[pineappleman]

What type of stance do you think Toriyama takes when taking decisions for his series? lol

 

[omegabronic]

What type of stance do you think Toriyama takes when taking decisions for his series? lol

as per our rules of WoG, non decisive statements such as personal opinions are not conclusive enough to be accepted, his opinions about his work can't overwrite the work itself, so if isn't him concretely saying a fact about the work, but him giving an opinion on it, then it wouldn't be valid enough per our standards to be accepted, specially with statements that straight up says that the movies are not in the canon at all like the one @The_Yellow_Topaz showed

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

What type of stance do you think Toriyama takes when taking decisions for his series? lol

Decisive.

Yes, there is a major difference.

 

[pineappleman]

as per our rules of WoG, non decisive statements such as personal opinions are not conclusive enough to be accepted, his opinions about his work can't overwrite the work itself, so if isn't him concretely saying a fact about the work, but him giving an opinion on it, then it wouldn't be valid enough per our standards to be accepted, specially with statements that straight up says that the movies are not in the canon at all like the one @The_Yellow_Topaz showed

Good thing it's not overwriting the work itself, and isn't the only piece of evidence presented in our argument.

Decisive.

Yes, there is a major difference.

a legitimate case of arguing semantics, since it was the interviewer that brought up the word 'personal' in the first place. not to mention arguing semantics over a translated interview.

 

[omegabronic]

Good thing it's not overwriting the work itself, and isn't the only piece of evidence presented in our argument.

the work itself never showed GT or the movies at all, all we have are statements and that's it

a legitimate case of arguing semantics, since it was the interviewer that brought up the word 'personal' in the first place. not to mention arguing semantics over a translated interview.

and akira said the "i take" which indicates personal opinion, plus if the question was for his personal opinion, then it is his personal opinion, if you think that the translation is not valid then bring the raw text for to be translated here then

 

[pineappleman]

and akira said the "i take" which indicates personal opinion, plus if the question was for his personal opinion, then it is his personal opinion, if you think that the translation is not valid then bring the raw text for to be translated here then

Honestly, if you think that the author giving clarification on the canonicity of the films in an interview within a guidebook all about these specific movies and specials (literally called Daizenshuu 6: Movies & TV Specials) is just a 'personal opinion that should be discarded' and that the personal headcanon of the people here has more merit, you're just being silly

 

[Deagonx]

He didn't do that, though.

 

[pineappleman]

He didn't do that, though.

nice 'nu-uh'

and akira said the "i take" which indicates personal opinion, plus if the question was for his personal opinion, then it is his personal opinion, if you think that the translation is not valid then bring the raw text for to be translated here then

Here's the raw of both the question and it's answer, according to JJ there is no explicit wording such as 'personal' to begin with so again, you've all just been arguing over semantics in a translation

Would be nice of Executor to double check this though, and to go into detail over “先生の中で”.

Also:

Taken from Dragon Box: The Movies

 

[omegabronic]

nice 'nu-uh'

Here's the raw of both the question and it's answer, according to JJ there is no explicit wording such as 'personal' to begin with so again, you've all just been arguing over semantics in a translation

Would be nice of Executor to double check this though, and to go into detail over “先生の中で”.

Also:

Taken from Dragon Box: The Movies

that is good evidence for your side, we can have a translator here double check it tho, i think if a staff could tag @Executor_N0 it would be good

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

nice 'nu-uh'

Here's the raw of both the question and it's answer, according to JJ there is no explicit wording such as 'personal' to begin with so again, you've all just been arguing over semantics in a translation

Would be nice of Executor to double check this though, and to go into detail over “先生の中で”.

Also:

Taken from Dragon Box: The Movies

If executor can translate these scans too that’d be a W

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The quality is too rough, I can't make out most of the kanjis or katakana.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

nice 'nu-uh'

Here's the raw of both the question and it's answer, according to JJ there is no explicit wording such as 'personal' to begin with so again, you've all just been arguing over semantics in a translation

Would be nice of Executor to double check this though, and to go into detail over “先生の中で”.

Also:

Taken from Dragon Box: The Movies

That's a very strong evidence.

ChatGPT's translation is second only to a human translator, as it understands context to some extent.

Here's it's take on the passage:

"Translation: "If you're a fan, you have to enjoy it up to this point!! An original story not found in the original work!! Although the movie has an original story, it is not a separate entity from the main series. Parts that might seem possible and origins that were not explained, are revealed in the movie!!"

Context: This passage is discussing the enjoyment and significance of a movie within the context of a fan's perspective. It emphasizes that the movie contains an original story that is not present in the original source material (likely referring to a series or franchise like Dragon Ball). Despite having an original storyline, the movie is not detached from the main series and is still connected to the established universe. The text suggests that certain elements or details that were previously unexplained or left open to interpretation in the main series might find their origins or explanations clarified in the context of the movie. The passage aims to highlight the value of the movie for fans and how it contributes to the overarching narrative of the series."

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

nice 'nu-uh'

Here's the raw of both the question and it's answer, according to JJ there is no explicit wording such as 'personal' to begin with so again, you've all just been arguing over semantics in a translation

Would be nice of Executor to double check this though, and to go into detail over “先生の中で”.

Also:

Taken from Dragon Box: The Movies

If executor can translate these scans too that’d be a W

@Executor_N0 could you take a look at these? Thanks in advance.