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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
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It will be interesting to see battles where characters who have always been 1-A get beaten by newly 1-As that were once Low 1-C.
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MoP solos Monads
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Shiva (Devo ke Dev Mahadev)
Shiva (also called Mahadev) is a character from a TV show called Devo ke Dev Mahadev whose plot revolves around the life of Hindu God Lord Shiva. Mahadev is described as the Supreme deity of whole existence with everything just being a part of him. He can be perceived in infinite forms and...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Seems like a strong candidate yesShiva (Devo ke Dev Mahadev)
Shiva (also called Mahadev) is a character from a TV show called Devo ke Dev Mahadev whose plot revolves around the life of Hindu God Lord Shiva. Mahadev is described as the Supreme deity of whole existence with everything just being a part of him. He can be perceived in infinite forms and...
DimeUhDozen
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I'm currently working on counterarguments in preparation for the oncoming storm. There's some space-time stuff in there that I think might qualify it even still, like The Animator in the higher layer not being affected by time completely stopping in the cartoon world and the computer crash, and all of the Pinky and the Brain multiverse/timelines stuff. Problem is, I'm not exactly the smartest when it comes to these, so it's going to ultimately come down to throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. If I'm going down, I'm going down fighting.
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My best guesses:
- Self-Reference Engine - Negative theology, lacks all aspects, fully nonexistent. Fulfills all Tier 0 standards.
- Swirl of the Root - Negative theology, lacks all aspects - transcends all dualities. Apparently fulfills all Tier 0 standards? IIRC Ultima also brought up Fate when discussing examples of apophatic theology stuffs.
- Jehovah - Negative theology, lacks all aspects, transcends all dualities. Probably fulfills all Tier 0 standards.
- Amaranth - Indivisible, indescribable, devoid of all dualities, etc.
Yeah, that's about all I can think of. Most of these are already Tier 0, lol.
There's probably a few others I'm not familiar with.
Perhaps some of the china verses like Dragon Talisman may also qualify. Lots of perfected trandualities n lacking of aspects.
Though, by virtue of china verse, it has a lot of hierarchies and people ascending to that level of existence, so it may not qualify. Unless ascension via shedding aspects of being is a way of bypassing that Tier 0 guideline.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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So, negative theology scaling is back on the table? I can do something really funny if that's the case, but I don't think I should.
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I need swirl of the root to be tier 0 so we can have the biggest glass cannons on the wiki LMAO
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Potentially, I think, at least.
Ultima's Tier 0 seems to be a lacking of all qualities via transcending them. Which is pretty much exactly what Negative Theology is... a method of explaining some absolute entity by negating its existence within our logic, inferring that they are beyond our comprehension in the most literal sense.
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I feel like some chinese verse could get upgraded to absurd length depending on if a character can, somehow, achieve a state similar to the Dao itself. Given that the explanation of said Dao is accurate and well-explained by the author, obviously, but also if Ultima would even consider such a case as "valid".
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Yeah, I did a bit more reading into it, and it seems like I might have a pretty solid case for tier 0 after all. Like, to the point where I think the evidence at hand is the textbook definition of tier 0 under Ultima's new system. There aren't even any anti-feats I'd have to cope my way out of, like with 1-A/High 1-A.
If tier 0 scaling is funny then I'm about to be hilarious.
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shiki tohno negs
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The problem is that I believe Chinese verses disqualify themselves by making all their levels of existence accessible via some amount of hierarchical ascendance.
Like, the "Dao," as a lone concept, most likely qualifies for Tier 0 in the same way I think the Monad, Form of Good, Brahman, Supreme Ultimate Reality, and etc... would also be Tier 0.
But Xianxia often has characters become one with the Dao, or even "transcend" the Dao, which disqualifies it.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Also:
- The Clear Light (Twin Peaks) - Completely beyond even the distinction between "God" and its shadow-self, both of which are merely two complementary aspects derived from an overarching state of oneness, the "naked, spotless intellect" whose nature is completely featureless and devoid of attributes and characteristics entirely, "existing" as a perfect, transparent vacuum with no form or color whatsoever, whereas even the former two still have colors representing their essences.
- The Atzmus - (Unsong) The Atzmus is the nameless and unmanifest aspect of the Divine which no thoughts reach, being a state that is neither the wholeness of God [1] nor the emptiness of nonexistence [0], completely unrepresentable by anything but the absence of information itself, without any binary digits whatsoever, and being unable to be spoken of or referred to in any manner.
- The Supreme Archetype (Cthulhu Mythos) - Exists a an all-encompassing, limitless oneness of essence animating all existence in an "unbounded sweep" lying "behind all scenes and dreams" as the "final cosmic reality" transcending all local and partial perceptions.
- Universe Prime (SCP Foundation) - We don't have a page for this, but it's essentially SCP's supreme being. It possesses infinite narrative energy, which it then distributes to all lower universes. As a result of its existence, no lower universe can ever interact with it or even comprehend what is going on in it. It is also completely immovable in its plot and fate, being unable to be changed at all. While lower universes are defined in power by the amount of narrative degrees they possess making them more or less real, Universe Prime has no narrative degrees at all, existing entirely beyond such systems.
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are all tier 0 characters under ultimas proposal assumed to be qequal?
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Yes, cultivation is about achieving a specific and greater realm. Although depending on the novel, the specificities of such realms can drastically change.
So there is a not so unlikely possibility of "Dao" from different verse being added as Tier 0 while no one scale to it? As long as there is no anti-feat?
I can't speak for every single Xianxia novel, but most of the things I stumbled upon, even when a character "achieve" such a state, it's only the beginning/ The Dao is infinite, you can't reach the genuine thing etc etc.
Like for example, would a thing like that qualifies?
Lin Feng was conducting his seminar while seated down, and there was a Dao fruit above his head. It was a single dot that continuously displayed the principles of the Book of Taiji and continuously explained the boundless principles and concepts of the great Dao.
There was nothing else besides this tiny dot. There was no time, there was no space, there was no Yin and Yang, there was no warmth or coldness, there was no fast and slow, there was no light or darkness.
The concept of space was nonexistent, and one wouldn’t be able to tell up from down and left from right. There was no sense of time, and one couldn’t tell the past from the future.
There was no way of describing its size, and no way of describing its shape. Nobody could pinpoint its exact location, and nobody could understand what this single dot was made of.
It felt like the beginning of the Dao, yet it also felt like the ultimate end of the great Dao. There was no head and no tail, no beginning and no end – it was just so mystical, and all the wisdom and profundities of the world were condensed into this single dot.
However, when Lin Feng’s Book of Taiji was approaching its end, everything began to change once more.
This time, even that mystical and unfathomable dot vanished into nothingness.
[...]
When this ancient scripture reached its last page, it disappeared like Lin Feng’s Dao fruit. All that was a left was a patch of nothingness – it was obscure, murky, and nothing much could be seen while the entire scene was almost impossible to describe and understand.
This nothingness hovered over Lin Feng’s head. It felt like this nothingness had a form and substance, but Xiao Yan and the others watched on but felt an inscrutable feeling rise from the bottom of their hearts.
Lin Feng’s Dao fruit of before was hard to define and describe, but it could still be described as a "dot", and one could still feel the concept of power that represented the beginning and the end of all things.
However, after Lin Feng’s Dao fruit transformed and after the Bell of Destiny transformed, people began to feel a real sense of indescribability.
It wasn’t because there was a lack of vocabulary, and neither was it because there was simply no way of describing it. People just had a feeling that no matter how they described it and no matter how much they tried to understand, they would still have a wrong answer.
Lin Feng was underneath this patch of nothingness, and he seemed to transcend above all logic and reason.
Everything that seemed incredulous, impossible, or unimaginable, felt normal for Lin Feng.
[...]
Everyone had a different sensation and understanding as they watched Lin Feng in this moment. They couldn’t really describe what they saw and felt, and neither could they estimate, understand, or define.
There was nothing else besides this tiny dot. There was no time, there was no space, there was no Yin and Yang, there was no warmth or coldness, there was no fast and slow, there was no light or darkness.
The concept of space was nonexistent, and one wouldn’t be able to tell up from down and left from right. There was no sense of time, and one couldn’t tell the past from the future.
There was no way of describing its size, and no way of describing its shape. Nobody could pinpoint its exact location, and nobody could understand what this single dot was made of.
It felt like the beginning of the Dao, yet it also felt like the ultimate end of the great Dao. There was no head and no tail, no beginning and no end – it was just so mystical, and all the wisdom and profundities of the world were condensed into this single dot.
However, when Lin Feng’s Book of Taiji was approaching its end, everything began to change once more.
This time, even that mystical and unfathomable dot vanished into nothingness.
[...]
When this ancient scripture reached its last page, it disappeared like Lin Feng’s Dao fruit. All that was a left was a patch of nothingness – it was obscure, murky, and nothing much could be seen while the entire scene was almost impossible to describe and understand.
This nothingness hovered over Lin Feng’s head. It felt like this nothingness had a form and substance, but Xiao Yan and the others watched on but felt an inscrutable feeling rise from the bottom of their hearts.
Lin Feng’s Dao fruit of before was hard to define and describe, but it could still be described as a "dot", and one could still feel the concept of power that represented the beginning and the end of all things.
However, after Lin Feng’s Dao fruit transformed and after the Bell of Destiny transformed, people began to feel a real sense of indescribability.
It wasn’t because there was a lack of vocabulary, and neither was it because there was simply no way of describing it. People just had a feeling that no matter how they described it and no matter how much they tried to understand, they would still have a wrong answer.
Lin Feng was underneath this patch of nothingness, and he seemed to transcend above all logic and reason.
Everything that seemed incredulous, impossible, or unimaginable, felt normal for Lin Feng.
[...]
Everyone had a different sensation and understanding as they watched Lin Feng in this moment. They couldn’t really describe what they saw and felt, and neither could they estimate, understand, or define.
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That seems the most logical, yes. If not, Ultima wouldn't have precised that there can only be one tier 0 being in a verse.
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Good list.
I did think about the Amaranth but that seems to go against the whole oneness thing as there are multiple Amaranths
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Isn't tier 0 because he changes into it.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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On a related note, Suggsverse definitely doesn't qualify for Ultima's new Tier 0 definition.
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Nope, but would likely be the highest High 1-A on the site if it was to ever be seriously evaluated.
Because Ultima's system would allow for his higher existential "logics" to be properly tiered. Of which, he has a very large number of.
Each of those would be like another "Meta-" being added onto "Meta-Qualitive Superiority."
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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"Seriously evaluating" Suggsverse is a tall, if not completely impossible, order, given the utter incoherence of Lionel Suggs's writing style.
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Nasuverse > Suggverse? lets ******* go
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We currently treat NT as a single level of qualitative superiority if it is framed in a way that implies superiority, but having it skyrocket to infinitely many levels above was rejected.
If Ultima's changes are approved most likely NT would not be allowed to grant the new form of qualitative superiority, as the very premise of NT self-rejects any description we would apply to it. We only treat this as a higher level of power if the verse does, but we would need much better evidence to assume it actually has qualitative superiority than just "something that is definitionally incompatible with the premise of indexing, but which the verse treats as some form of a higher power."
If Ultima's changes are approved most likely NT would not be allowed to grant the new form of qualitative superiority, as the very premise of NT self-rejects any description we would apply to it. We only treat this as a higher level of power if the verse does, but we would need much better evidence to assume it actually has qualitative superiority than just "something that is definitionally incompatible with the premise of indexing, but which the verse treats as some form of a higher power."
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Did you not read what his Tier 0 proposal is? NT is like... exactly in-line with what he proposes. I'd be very doubtful of it "not being allowed to grant the new form of qualitative superiority."
And, I don't know what you mean by 'better evidence' considering there's not much you can do to really provide "more" about something using NT lol. The whole concept of NT is rejecting the qualities and aspects we use to define things in order to express the idea of something absolute. So how would you go about saying anything more regarding it? The best you could do is give the perspective of how lower beings view said thing, or its "state" relative to other things, which are both ultimately meaningless to what said thing actually is anyway.
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Goku solos weak 1-C root
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That's more or less exactly why I don't think NT will or should be considered to meet the new criteria.
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nt is lacking all qualities. Tier 0 is lacking all qualities
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That's not what Tier 0 is, no. He said:
Tier 0 can be described as "above the qualities defining High 1-A." NT cannot be described that way. It cannot be described as anything.
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I believe that is an outdated version of his tier 0 proposal given that his post seems to directly contradict that notion.
Based on these, NT seems to fit the bill for Tier 0 far more than just "Transcending High 1-A in the same manner that High 1-A transcends lower tiers"
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Wait is that true if this proposal get applied a transduality nature will get 1A to 0 rating???
I just think this proposal is taking serious about philosophy, metaphysics proof, raise it to the highest level beyond even math. This i think will change our perspective about abstraction entirely
I just think this proposal is taking serious about philosophy, metaphysics proof, raise it to the highest level beyond even math. This i think will change our perspective about abstraction entirely
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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It's crazy how people think it'll be that easy. I cannot wait for the wave of threads where people try to get 1-A/0 based on misunderstandings and get brutally shut down.
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Your definitely gonna see that plus threads running a bais train with wild takes.
Magicomethkuon
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This. It's obvious that the standards and context for feats of each series with R>F will face dissection, compared to what is seen at present. Or it should be obvious, but it's apparent now that it is not the case for many.........
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it will be that easy..... at least for umineko
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I'll briefly summarize how SCP's R>F layers work:UminekoSCP Foundation
Having a stupid amount of R>F layers.
- From bottom to top, a single universe in the infinite SCP multiverse consists of four layers: physical reality, the Noosphere, the Semiosphere, and the Patasphere, with each layer entirely transcending the frameworks of everything before it. Physical reality varies between universes, but the other three layers are identical for every universe.
- At least one of these universes already contains an infinite amount of R>f layers, with the author in charge of that one explicitly saying (Here, in Addendum 3812.6) that metafictional dimensions are inherently superior to spatiotemporal ones. This means that a single universe's physical component would vary up to 1-A+ under Ultima's new system while all of a universe taken together is two layers above baseline High 1-A.
- The entire multiverse is encased in a structure called the Infosphere that entirely transcends it, meaning the multiverse as a whole is three layers above baseline High 1-A.
- There is another stack of meta-R>f layers above the multiverse, which is infinite layers into High 1-A. A nebulous, entirely ineffable Tier 0 structure called Universe Prime subsumes this stack entirely.
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