Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 10,794
- 9,674
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
- 14,147
- 5,643
i mean........how else would Tien logically be able to deflect any Kamehameha Goku could possibly trow, as Roshi's statement is said in regards of "power doesn't matter, Goku could have a trumph super power kamehameha, the beam itself just doesn't work on him" so assuming he is talking about what Tien did with Kiai against his own blast, then yeah, it would simply be another aspect of it as it is what is show and stated to do, also.........air pressure cannot reflect beams of energy in real life, so if you want to question the logic behind this.......you are beginning by the wrong step here
do we even see it ever doing that again after Tien shows it in that arc?
- 15,331
- 22,664
Logically?, simply Tien is that strong, what so hard to think about?, you guys just complicated everything up with a bunch of leap in logic. Also why you bring up real life here, we talking about a ki attacks that create air pressure to deflect a supernatural energy beam, what the hell are you on about?
- 4,608
- 6,862
Oh waiter, more stonewalling with long nonsensical arguements literally just for the sake of it please
- 4,608
- 6,862
Also I love the 'erm does he ever do it again' bullshit as if the rest of the fcking series doesnt have characters constantly physically scaling to charged ki attacks from characters comparable in power, destroying this 'characters don't actually scale physically to their feats becuz muh charged ki blast' agenda
- 3,675
- 5,681
Well I disagree it’s depicted as comparable in some instances atleast during this point of the series especially with the Piccolo Jr. thing.
I checked your post again so I believe you’re talking about the Roshi vs Oozaru instance. So, Goku was already losing to Roshi and he was trapped under his move until he looked at the moon, but this point doesn’t really matter so it’s not my point of emphasis. This doesn’t necessarily
Yeah, the attack is being deflected via kiai, but it’s not like some sort of attack reflection hax like full counter by Meliodas or something. It’s merely the attack being deflected away via the use of dispersed energy. The reason I think it’s off the table is because it’s never stated to be, it’s just him deflecting attacks with kiai that’s not a hax.
Instead of having some huge back and forth, I’m just gonna try and summarize what I’m saying: The kamehameha is indeed stronger the character’s physicals, but it’s still comparable to them in power. I understand you’re using the fact that Goku couldn’t punch metal, and that you’re arguing Goku being comparable to his super kamehameha is merely one instance. However, my argument doesn’t hinge on this I know there are times they seem a bit more stronger than other ocassions, BUT in this occasion Tien is merely using a kiai. I get your argument is that they were holding their own against each other in H2H combat, but that doesn’t change the fact that Tien could deflect his kamehameha with a kiai blast. The same way Piccolo Jr. was losing to Goku, but he could tank a super kamehameha.
- 14,147
- 5,643
it isn't a leap in logic, it is a logical thing anyone would think about "he can deflect any Kamehameha no matter how strong simply cuz he is soo much stronger than them" "wait but, Goku is equal to him, and Goku can do a Kamehameha that can one shot people comparable, or even much superior to himself.........so Tien would upscale that much above Goku as no Kamehameha would ever work per what is said.........yet, he is still equal in strength even when Tien is supp
now you see the point, since it is super natural to begin with......why couldn't it have an inherent Attack Reflection factor to it? more over, why can't Tien's version have that characteristic? earlier you said "it is just a shockwave" as a counterpoint to why it couldn't possibly be supernatural attack reflection to stronger attacks then Tien's AP..........but now that i bring up how the move itself shouldn't be able to logically do what it already does, you call me out for it being supernatural? you can see where i am coming from at least, right?
not every charged ki blast is marginally higher than the user's base power.........but saying none of them are is equally wrong via several showings in the series, negating their existence entirely is arguably even more egregious
again, you are arguing as if the Kamehameha was always a constant set power level.......it isn't, and at this point in the series is exactly where we get the "it is FAR above the users power depending on how it is used" situations, heck Null even showed a statement saying how the whole point of the move is being far superior to the user's own base strength even, i don't even know why you are treating it still as if i said all kamehameha are so much higher than their users..........cause i never said that
.......being real here, i have no idea what part of my answer you are referring to here lol, if it is the "Kamehameha far superior to the user depending on how it is used" bit......then there is a fair more situations, that wall that Goku couldn't dent, but could make a solid hole in it with the Kamehameha, Major Metallitron, Raditz, Cell, etc, if we included other charged attacks that are not the kamehameha in specific we would be here for hours honestly, point is..........the Kamehameha is not a set power attack, it can be far stronger on weaker on circumstance, specially when special variations are taken into account, that is a fact that you cannot really deny as it is super consistent through the series, it all really depends on how much power you condense in a single blast
do we even have a statement saying specifically that this is how it works or is that you educated guess on how it works?
Kiai alone as a thing is a supernatural hax, that aside, this is an "argument from ignorance", just because it isn't stated to be a Attack Reflection hax isn't proof that it isn't, as well as not being proof that it is, further analysis is required.......and given the "power doesn't matter" statement Roshi made + the circumstance in which it is said to begin with "Krillin suggesting Goku has a Kamehameha more powerful than the ones he used so far", leads me to believe it does have some other hax that would make the power difference irrelevant
on its own of course, if it has an elaboration on how this "Kiai reflection" works exactly then that would help wonders
yeah but like.......this logic of yours only works if you assume a Kamehameha is stagnant in how much more powerful it can be made, which is visibly not true, be it the kamehameha or not, Condensed energy attacks in general get far stronger the more energy you condense, at least, seeing the series that is clearly the case
- 4,608
- 6,862
Yeah that was a bunch of yap and mostly involved you responding to arguements we didn't make then accusing us of doing the same fckkng thing
'Not every blast is marginally higher' genuinely what the **** are you talking about i never said that. If your arguement is charged ki blasts arent stagnant jumps, that doesn't remove characters physically scaling to them later in the series, you have just made a bunch of meaningless metnal gymnastics lmao
'Not every blast is marginally higher' genuinely what the **** are you talking about i never said that. If your arguement is charged ki blasts arent stagnant jumps, that doesn't remove characters physically scaling to them later in the series, you have just made a bunch of meaningless metnal gymnastics lmao
- 4,608
- 6,862
Its literally just attack reflection via AP, you are needlessly overcomplicating this just for the sake of it
- 3,675
- 5,681
No, I’m arguing that a kamehameha is stronger than the user, but in some cases we can see that it appears marginally above the user and therefore comparable to the user.
Yeah, I have a statement that says it’s via kiai. I’m not making anything up. Here, also here is a scan that goes a bit more extensive of what kiai is. It’s essentially just your energy that disperses outwards from your body without concentration in one spot.
Kiai is not a supernatural hax, it’s merely the dispersion of energy going outwards. It’s like arguing that ki blasts and kamehamehas are supernatural haxes, but you’re free to think that I suppose. Unless you’re saying Tien’s kiai in specific is a supernatural hax, in which case I still disagree.
No, I’m not arguing that kamehameha has a set power, but I’m arguing that the power from the kamehameha depends on the power of the user who’s using it, and in instances is seemingly comparable to the user.
- 14,147
- 5,643
and when did i said that you said that? I wasn't even talking about something you said, but explaining my point about how the Kamehameha can either be somewhat above or far above the user
.........? Again, when have i said they never scale? They do......just not for every ki blast technique all the time, there are several cases and cases
........isn't that phrase......oh i get it, i was using the wronf term, what i meant is "far higher" not "slightly", my goof here
.....that isn't what i asked tho?
"on its own of course, if it has an elaboration on how this "Kiai reflection" works exactly then that would help wonders"
I said it is via Kiai, i was asking for a statement on the mechanics of how the Kiai deflection works, not if it is done with the Kiai itself
Mm, didn't accused you to have......but ok
Kay........but does it explain how the deflection works? Cuz huh, that was what i was asking for elaboration
Via supernatural means, look, i......think, i know what you are meaning to say.......but you should really word it better, also......if Kiai's are dispersion of energy..... what exactly stops them from being above the user's own physical strenght like how the Ki Blasts attacks can also be?
Again, i think I know what you meant......but i am not sure, an energy beam made from your inner energy is factually supernatural........can you explain better what do you mean?
Not in specific, but his is clearly somewhat special if it can deflect Ki attacks easily like that......unless it is a thing all Kiais can do? Do we even have another example to know?
And in others is largely superior, it depends on the users power as well as how much energy they condense, which can make it a large one shot gap, which loops back to the problem in question with the circular scalling and such
- 4,608
- 6,862
I pointed out how we know characters can physically scale to charged ki blasts from characters they are physically comparable to themselves. The first line of your response was the marginal increase remark, which is pretty clearly you implying I said that. It's like painfully clear, and it makes it exhausting to engage with you when every single time anyone responds to you, you bend yourself over backwards to either weasel out of something you said that has painfully clear meaning so you wave them off with the 'I didn't make that point' card, or you say that what you said actually meant something completely different that no one could reasonably interpet as such.
At the same time you don't give any of our points the same favorability, on the rare times you actually engage them.
Last edited:
- 4,608
- 6,862
Tien deflected a Kamehameha with a Kiai, which we know for a fact is just AP.
Not a supernatural hax. You need to provide evidence for that claim instead of dodging that burden and passing it onto us, which you have a history of doing.
I know the quality of the response I'm going to get, so I'm going to stop engaging because the scans on Kiai being AP are pretty clear.
Not a supernatural hax. You need to provide evidence for that claim instead of dodging that burden and passing it onto us, which you have a history of doing.
I know the quality of the response I'm going to get, so I'm going to stop engaging because the scans on Kiai being AP are pretty clear.
Last edited:
- 15,331
- 22,664
funny is, even if we goes the route Kiai is hax, it is still ki-based hax, and Ki is universal energy system, so hax come from this UES still scales to user physical stats, so Tien scales regardless
- 3,675
- 5,681
The statement literally says it happens via kiai. There isn’t anymore elaboration than this because it’s simply that. You’re putting a hax twist on it which is just adding stuff to something that doesn’t exist. We can just agree to disagre, but it’s already accepted that kiai is an energy-based thing, and not some mystical hax. It is literally energy dispersion from outwards your body.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 6,450
- 5,163
Arguing for arguments sake
- 14,147
- 5,643
Not really, it was me explaining my point further to you, i really don't see how it could imply you said it........specially when the message is right there showing exactly what you said
TBf here i was using a term wrongly due to me confusing meanings, so some confusion probably came from that
And i am not sure how one could interpret what i said in a way that what i actually said is impossoble to decipher......could you give me an example?
......again, can you give an example? I honestly don't see how i am not engaging with them
I am not passing anything.....i provided evidence by showing how it just being AP contradicts both the stated in question and gets circular scalling as Tien would be scalling above the AP of Goku himself in a big way, as the statement would include Kamehamehas far stronger than Goku himself, not only the ones that scale to him
That depends on the hax in question, attack deflection for example usually doesn't have much to do with AP for it to matter in the UES argument, and honestly even with that, the scale becomes circular as i pointed out
......again, when have i said that it didn't happened via Kiai? Why are you implying i said it wasn't Kiai?
Roshi's statement nescecitates it being more given how Power is said by him to be a non factor for Tien.......i am not forcing anything, i am saying what the series is saying, which also would cover the clear circular scalling that happens if it is purely AP focused, as Tien scaling far above someone he is at the same time equal to makes no sense
......why it being energy means it cannot possibly be anything else as well tho?
Sure, we can agree to disagree
- 4,608
- 6,862
Sure, my example is this post where you do everything I described to a T. You weaseling your way out of responsibility from the pretty clear cut implications of your post by just saying 'not really, I was just explaining my point further to you, I don't see how you can interpet it that way', when I specifically spelled it out for you how it is unreasonable for me to interpet how you responded as entirely something different.
There is no way I could possibly interpet you not responding to me in the first line of your response as you actually just furthering a point that was hardly related to anything I said at all.
You don't want to take responsibility, nor do you want to try and be more clear, so 60% of every interaction is just you accusing us of not understanding you with bengin remarks and us wasting our time with semantics.
And I feel like I'm wasting my time here, because I knew exactly how you'd respond, and then you did.
Last edited:
- 4,608
- 6,862
Also so far you haven't actually proven anything. We've made it clear there's no contradictions or circular scaling, as we have scans proving kiai is AP based. You so plainly are forcing things.
We have gone in circles. We provided evidence in way of scans (kiai is AP based), you ignore and repeat talking points we've already covered (circular scaling), before making some wild assertion as a possible different explanation without at all proving it (it being energy doesnt mean it couldn't possibly be something else).
We have gone in circles. We provided evidence in way of scans (kiai is AP based), you ignore and repeat talking points we've already covered (circular scaling), before making some wild assertion as a possible different explanation without at all proving it (it being energy doesnt mean it couldn't possibly be something else).
Last edited:
Ruphas_Mafahl123
He/Him- 6,331
- 3,720
Kiai cant be hax at all, knowing the fact its ki based
- 15,331
- 22,664
i mean, i want to entertain Omega's way of thinking which still result in Kiai scale to Tien physically
- 3,675
- 5,681
It’s because it’s literally just ki dispersion. If you think it’s hax you’re feel free to think that way I suppose. I’m just simply not gonna subscribe to it because I think that it lacks any solid basis, besides requiring some extrapolation. You can make a thread and get this accepted if you want, but kiai becoming some sort of hax probably won’t get accepted.
- 4,608
- 6,862
Yeah I'm done to, not gonna keep engaging atp.
- 14,147
- 5,643
Clearly not just that for the Deflect techniwue Tien uses if it can repel other stronger or relative attacks easily like that, when 2 ki attacks colide, the stronger one just overpowers the other and when they are equal both powers cancel eachother out or go to a beam struggle, according to you Tien would simply be stronger than Goku's kamehameha/comparable........then why is the Kiai even nescesary? Why can't he just do it with his ki enhanced hands? Why is it said to be a Kamehameha specific counter if it could be used on all other physical attacks as well, given that "it is just AP"?
Kiai already is hax tho?
- 15,568
- 4,557
As a pure complex hax
- 14,147
- 5,643
changing subject, since DBS Anime is now not considered Canon to the OG Manga continuity/DBS Manga continuity, and all counters/contradictions brought up for Infinite universe come from the DBS Anime, it should be valid to make the Universe from the OG Manga continuity/DBS Manga continuity infinite now, right?
Spinoirr
He/Him- 17,745
- 10,392
Probably yeah, this would also upgrade the Super manga right?
- 14,147
- 5,643
yeah, makes their afterlife straight up universal without any real counters to it.......altho, i don't know if we scale someone to the entire universe in size for speed tho
Accelerated_Evolution
He/Him- 7,860
- 9,000
Yes:
To be canon or not to be that is the question.A Dragon ball Super revision
Well hello everyone I am back with another crt the objective of this crt would be to prove why DBZ Kai is canon to DBS anime First let me lay some base for the argument in Dragon ball Super we can see them using flash backs from the anime for some scenes in super 1)In Dragon ball super...
- 3,675
- 5,681
The way he deflects it is stated to be via using a kiai. Which is merely just raw energy output being dispersed from the body.
It isn’t? It’s just accepted to be able to cancel out and deflect weaker attacks.
RoninSlayer200
He/Him- 618
- 949
Yeah, someone should do it.
- 14,147
- 5,643
yeah
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 10,794
- 9,674
I was trying to relocate the thread where Ectoplasm Manipulation was rejected for Gotenks and had to re-witness a gaggle of goobers tell me my translations were incorrect and cutting out important context by examining the kanji/hiragana individually, only for a verified translator to validate them three hours later.
- 3,561
- 5,181
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 10,794
- 9,674
Very cool.
- 13,502
- 14,705
lmfao gold. love that
